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Prospect list - position players

It's been 58 years and counting since we last won the World Series.  I'm almost three times as old as my father was when the Indians knocked off the Braves in 1948.  A little impatience can be excused at this point.  So I was thinking about our chances of winning it all in the next couple of years.  More specifically, I was thinking about who there was in our minor league system who could help us achieve that goal.  The result - a prospect list.

Star-divide

First, a caveat.  This is not a typical prospect list.  It isn't about who is going to have the longest career, the best career, or who has the best tools (though tools help).  It's about which players have the best chances of making a contribution to a Cleveland Indians World Series victory in 2007 or 2008.  Most of these guys will not be regulars in the major leagues in the next couple of years; some of them never will.  That doesn't mean that can't help us win a World Series though.  If the Indians had been on the edge of the playoff race last year, Garko's half season might have been enough to get them to the post-season, and that has value even if the guy never has a decent full year.  Besides, if a team with resource limitations like the Indians is going to win the World Series, they're going to need a few of these 'no sure thing'-guys to come through.

OK, I didn't consider the guys who already have a fair amount of big-league exposure - Marte, Garko, Shoppach, and Inglett.  Marte and Garko would be 1st and 2nd if I had considered them, and Shoppach would be in the top 6, probably around Choo/Crowe.  Inglett?  I don't know.  He's 28, so I'm not considering him a prospect (although I think he's a decent player).  My list, my rules.

Here it is (age as of 7/1/2006):

  1.  Franklin Gutierrez - CF, 23, 806 OPS at Buffalo.  It surprised me, but his 806 OPS was 13% better than the IL average.  He has decent speed, a good defensive reputation, and was fairly young for the league.  His bat could improve enough to make him a contributor.
  2.  Shin-soo Choo - RF-CF, 23, 893 OPS at Tacoma.  Choo's raw numbers look good in 375 AB at Tacoma in the PCL, but the league OPS was about 760, so he was only about 17% better than the league.  He's got more power than Gutierrez, and a higher upside, but his numbers in 2006 were well above the trend of 2003-2005 (and his defensive rep isn't as good), so I'm putting him below Franklin.
  3.  Trevor Crowe - CF, 22, 798 OPS between Kinston and Akron.  Awesome at Kinston, he got hurt and struggled a bit in AA, but put up some good numbers in the AFL. Excellent speed, decent pop for somebody his size.  I don't think he'll make it to Cleveland this year, but he could help in 2008.
  4.  Brian Barton - OF, 24, 923 OPS between Kinston and Akron.  Awesome at Kinston, awesome at Akron.  No longer a sleeper, he's got power, speed, talent, a good work ethic, and intelligence.  His OPS at Akron was about 31% better than the league.  He's a little bit old for the level of competition he faced, but given the relatively late start to his professional career and the ease with which he has handled each promotion, it's not too much of a knock on him.  If he hits in Buffalo for the first half of the year, we could see a trade deadline deal to dump one of our veteran spare part outfielders and a Barton promotion.
  5.  Asdrubal Cabrera - SS, 20, 632 OPS at Buffalo.  His bat seems weak (OPS 12% worse than league at Buffalo, about 10% worse than league in Tacoma) but that's not the most important number.  20.  That's the important one.  He's only 20.  That's actually pretty good hitting for a 20-year old shortstop at AAA.  He has a great defensive rep, so if age and experience bring his bat up to league average at AAA and Jhonny struggles again, we could see Cabrera as a part-timer.
  6.  Ryan Goleski - OF, 24, 948 OPS between Kinston and Akron.  Destroyed the Carolina League, merely very good in the Eastern League.  He's the same age as Barton, but lacks his tools and may have been expected to advance a little further since he started his pro career in 2003 (vs 2005 for Barton).  Also, that down year at Kinston in 2005 makes me a little leery.  His defense isn't so good, he doesn't run very well, but he has lots of power.  Sort of reminds me of former Tribe prospect Luke Scott (Astros).  Scott had a great half year in Houston, probably playing way above his head, but, like Goleski, has a legit bat and can produce respectable offensive numbers in the outfield for a couple of years in his prime.
  7.  Brad Snyder - RF, 24, 796 OPS at Akron.  Meh.  Disappointing.  Still has tools, hit OK in the second half, strikes out a lot.  But, with those tools, if he puts it together he could boost production at a corner outfield spot.  What's with all the outfielders though?  We really don't have many infield prospects that are anywhere near ready.
  8.  Ben Francisco - OF, 24, 799 OPS at Buffalo.  Ben does a little of everything and had a pretty good year at Buffalo, with an OPS 12% better than the IL average.  17 HRs, 32 2Bs, stole 20 bases while being caught only 5 times.  4th outfielder possibility in the bigs.  We need to package some of this outfield depth for some relief pitching.
And one more, a bit of a dark horse.

9.  Jonathan Van Every - OF, 26, 814 OPS between Akron and Buffalo.  Drafted way back in 2000, in the 29th round, he signed in May, 2001 and began a long trek up the minor league ladder.  He's never been a heralded prospect, held back by low batting averages and tons of strikeouts.  He's been old for his league in all of his strongest years.  However, he draws quite a few walks, runs well, hits for power (475 SLG in his minor league career) and Baseball America recently called him the Indians best defensive outfielder in the minors.  He's still on the roster at Buffalo, so I don't think he's a minor league free agent yet.

Others - Wyatt Toregas (C), Jordan Brown (OF), Jose Constanza (OF), and Max Ramirez (C/1B/DH) aren't really far enough along to expect anything from them by 2008.

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Re: Prospect list - position players
I know he's only 20, but no John Drennen??

by chodson28 on Dec 1, 2006 2:03 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I don't think we'll see Drennen in Cleveland in the next two years.  As you said, he's very young - he just turned 20 in August.  He hit well in Lake County, but struggled in his first exposure to High A ball in Kinston, going homerless in 113 at-bats.  It is no condemnation of his ability to expect him to take 2+ more full years to cover the three levels between Lake County and Cleveland.

by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Dec 1, 2006 2:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
You know we have coco crisps all over the place. I don't mean this in actual production of Crisp, but in the curcumstances that led to him being moved. The fact that he really was more valuable to other teams as a CF than he was to us as a LF. Gutz and Crowe fit this mold as well. With Sizemore holding down that position for near (and even long to an extent) future, I am sure Shapiro is going to look into dealing one if not both. I think Crowe could be a good player, even if left in LF, as long as we get production from C, 3B, and SS that is above avg. in power, but the temptation may always be there to deal him.

by hans on Dec 1, 2006 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I think Sizemore should/could be a solid LFer.  His arm isn't that great (although I can't find any numbers to back me up, merely on what I've seen) and he does have enough pop in his bat to be a middle of the order hitter and atleast average power for a corner outfielder.
That said, I think the Tribe can open up a spot for Crowe and/or Gutz.

by Brandini on Dec 1, 2006 2:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
A few problems with that:

  1. Grady wants to play CF. I don't think aggravating the biggest name in town is the best way to run a team.

  2. Grady covers an excessive amount of ground: His arm may only be average but he is as good gap to gap as anyone in baseball. Add his speed to his eye and you have a CF capable of outrunning any mistakes he does make.

  3. There is no reason to move him: Why, exactly, do we want a space for Gutz or Crowe? Crowe is, at the very least, a year away from the major league level and Gutz is respectable but nothing special. Both of these players are more valuable elsewhere than they are here.

  4. Power from LF is a cliche: Should Atl move Andruw Jones to LF just because he can hit for some power? What about Toronto and Vernon Wells? Grady is every bit as good in the field as Wells and could be as good as Jones. There is no need to move him to LF simply because he has some pop and we have two middling prospects that can play CF.
Wait 'til next year... or something like that

by fwembt on Dec 1, 2006 5:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Moving him to LF would save some wear and tear on his body.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 1, 2006 6:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Probably, I just don't think it is a good idea. He wouldn't like it and that leaves us with a hole in CF where we currently have a Gold-Glove candidate.
Wait 'til next year... or something like that

by fwembt on Dec 1, 2006 6:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I agree  Sizemore will be our CF for at least the next two years, now that we have signed Dellucci for LF. I'm also guessing that Shapiro does not see Crowe being major league ready for at least two years or we would not have signed Dellucci for three years deal.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 1, 2006 6:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Nah, Dellucci's not going to stand in the way if Crowe is mashing in AAA. A $11.5M contract is peanuts in today's environment.

by Ryan on Dec 1, 2006 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
He hasn't mashed AA pitching yet, and 11.5M is not peanuts to the tribe.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 1, 2006 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
My sense is that Dellucci holds Crowe's place for 2007, and essentially replaces Blake in 2008-2009.  Bottom line, you can shuffle these guys around in a few different ways, but it seemed like a good idea to lock up a solid OF guy for a few years.

I'm with Ryan in calling the money "peanuts."

by Jay on Dec 2, 2006 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
When our entire 2006 payroll was 56M, I don't see how 11.5M is peanuts.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 2, 2006 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
It's 11.5 million total over three years.

by Chiefroy on Dec 2, 2006 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
how many player on the current roster get paid more than 4M?
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 2, 2006 11:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
To most teams in baseball, a position player making $3.5M a season is peanuts. Heck, the Indians just gave $3.5M to a 42-year-old middle reliever. If he's healthy and putting up decent numbers, there will be teams interested in him.

by Ryan on Dec 3, 2006 12:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I agree that it should be peanuts, but it has not been in the past with us. And why is it that it seems this is the only type of FA we can sign? I know we have tried in spend more but the FA we go after end up sign with someone else, and a lot of times for less money.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 3, 2006 12:57 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I was thinking about what you said " To most teams in baseball, a position player making $3.5M a season is peanuts."  Let's look at the tribe. Of the starting 9 who makes more that 3.5M? Maybe a better question is how many make less than 1M? Cleveland has not been "most teams" in the last 4 yrs, when and who was the last non-pitcher that has made more than 5M.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 3, 2006 10:47 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
You can't simply divide up a team based on salary.  You have to look at how many players are in their first 3 years of service time and are therefore not eligible for arbitration, how many are arbitration eligible but still under the sole control of the team, and those who are eligible for free agency.  You can't compare Dellucci, who falls into the latter category, with a bunch of guys who have no or limited bargaining position.  When you compare his salary to other free-agency elibible players, Dellucci's $3.5M is pretty minimal.

by APV on Dec 3, 2006 11:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I know that, but to say 3.5M is no big deal to the tribe is not fair, we don't spend money so it is a big deal, maybe not to other teams but to the tribe it is. How many 5-10M yr deals have we given out in the last 5 yrs?
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 3, 2006 11:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
  1.  Grady is probably one of the best "team players" I have ever heard of, he constantly seems to be putting the team first.  I think if Wedge and Shapiro sat him down and said, "this is best for the team" Grady would not be so arrogant to say, "well I want to play CF, so no!"  I don't think it would be agrivating him, it would be improving the team.
  2.  Grady covers a great deal of ground.  I haven't seen Crowe play, but I have seen Gutz and the kid covers a great deal of ground as well.  He also has an above average arm.  So why put him in LF when the guy with the weaker arm can go to LF?  Oh, because of #1...Thats sad.
  3.  Gutz is still young and had by all accounts a pretty solid season in triple A at a young age.  I doubt he'll be as good as Sizemore, but I personally feel he will atleast be as good as a Dellucci or a Blake.
  4.  This isn't about "putting power in LF" this is about the best arrangement for defensive purposes.  Both Jones and Wells are among the best two CFers in the game and have been for the past few years.  Both have well above average arms.  The "need" to play Sizemore in LF is not so much a "need" as much as it is an advantage to have solid fielding prospects.

My point was that Sizemore is not a "lock" to be a CFer for his career in Cleveland.  His weak arm makes him ideal for being a LFer and allows for him to work more on his hitting then being a fielder.  Is it a major team need?  By no means.  However the team has the luxury to move Sizemore to the corner rather then talking about him "blocking" Crowe and Gutz and therefore making them expendable.
I would personally like to see Sizemore in LF with Crowe or Gutz(whoever pans out) in CF then Delucci in LF and Sizemore in CF.  Not only from the standpoint of defence, but also based on my expectations(or hopes) that Gutz/Crowe are atleast the equivalent to Dellucci at the plate.

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 4:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Crowe is not considered as good of a defender as Sizemore.  Gutierrez has long been called the best defensive outfielder in the organization -- a little more rangey than Sizemore and a lot more arm.  Snyder is not far behind -- that's part of the reason the prospect oldheads refuse to give up on him, he's got big catch-and-throw skills.

I agree with you that it's not unthinkable that Sizemore would move to LF.  But it's not going to be for the first dude that comes along with a better throwing arm.  The Indians believe he can be an outstanding CF, and they'll leave him there unless there's a clear-cut reason to move him -- permanently -- to LF.

Here's the kind of player that would take:

  • Outstanding defensive player, unquestionably
  • Good enough bat to be confident he can stay in the lineup -- it's okay if he's at the bottom of the order, it's not okay if he might be benched.
  • Under control as long as Sizemore -- meaning, either a prospect, or we sign a long-term FA deal.

At one time, it seemed likely that that type of player was going to emerge from our system, but that's no longer the case.

by Jay on Dec 2, 2006 12:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Hmmm
So if the Indians are certain that Gutz is going to be better offensively for the club then Blake (or whoever in RF) and/or Dellucci they wouldn't place him in the position that best suits their defensive needs?

I can understand the Tribe not wanting to move Sizemore because they think he is going to be a great defender.  But I'm not exactly sure what they see as its unlikely his arm turns into a plus arm.

In any event, I suppose it is just my hopes that there is an OFer in the system that is better then Dellucci.

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 12:36 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I think the point that Jay and I (if I may be so bold as to speak for him) are trying to make is that the Indians are not sure that Gutz, Crowe or anyone else will be able to contribute enough to make moving Sizemore an option worth considering.

Sizemore's arm is not a liability in CF. He may not have a hose but he doesn't throw poorly either. It is going to take quite the player to move him out of CF.

Wait 'til next year... or something like that

by fwembt on Dec 2, 2006 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I'm not sure if any fielding statistics are out from last year, but from what I observed last year, I hated Sizemores arm.  I recall on the first game of the season a bloop single that he charged at and made a "powerful" throw into second took two bounces before arriving at Belliard.

I think when the numbers come out, he will be ranked in the lower third of major league CFers, in the Pierre/Damon range.

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
So if the Indians are certain that Gutz is going to be better offensively for the club then Blake (or whoever in RF)

This is not what they're certain of.  It's the opposite, in fact.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 1:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
If Crowe isn't going to push Sizemore to left field, than why isn't he considered to be more of a trade-able prospect?  Wouldn't it be the whole Coco in left field thing all over again?  

I guess you let him try and dominate Double A and worry about it when you have to, in 2008?

by cheech99 on Dec 2, 2006 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
i think that was my point. No we shouldn't try and move these guys, but it may be that they are more valuable to another team as a CF than they are to us as our LF.

Although the whole "Corner outfield spots need to be power producers cliche" argument posted above would say that they should all just be considered as OFs instead of breaking it down to which part of the OF they play (at least in terms of offensive output expectations). But that doesn't mean other teams don't think or believe in that cliche.

by hans on Dec 2, 2006 7:28 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
See, this is my problem...
If Crowe developes as a quality OFer with a good arm or Gutz developes into a solid hitter, why not play one of them in center and Grady in LF?  We all know Gradys arm is at best...Average, so playing a superior defender at CF means the Coco factor is gone.

The thing about Coco and the Indians flexibility is that his best spot was at CF, however he was worse then Grady.  So if Crowe or Gutz are better then Sizemore in CF, PLAY THEM THERE!

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 9:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Well I'd look at it this way. Sizemore will be the best overall player of the three (who for arguements sake are all considered CFs). So I agree we could certainly keep all of them and position them however you want. But if another team has a hole in CF (like Boston did last year) than trading either Crowe or Gutz (becuase we're not going to trade Sizemore since he is the best overall player of the three) could net us more overall value (similar to the Coco trade). This assumes that it is harder to find good centerfielders rather than it is to find good corner outfielders.

 

by hans on Dec 2, 2006 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
BUT...
Where are the teams holes for this year and beyond?

Going into last season, the team had holes at both the corner infield positions as well as the corner outfield positions PLUS 2B.  Going into this season there are a lot fewer holes.  So the club can consider Sizemore as a LFer while Gutz/Crowe SHOULD be atleast league average.

by Brandini on Dec 3, 2006 4:08 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Are you talking about next year?  Gutierrez will not compete for a starting job, purely based on his bat, and Crowe isn't even on the 40-man roster.

If either one of those guys makes something more of himself in 2007, then we can have this debate next year.  For this year, it's totally out of left field.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 1:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
All I can tell you is what the scouts say, which is that Crowe is not expected to be as good as Sizemore in the field, all things considered.

And nobody is counting on Gutierrez being good enough to hold down a starting job.

I think you are being overly tough on Grady's arm.  You evidently think the majors are filled with rocket-armed CF'ers, but that is not the case.  Why else would the Red Sox pay such a heavy price for Coco Crisp?

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
WHOA
A "heavy price"?
They essentially traded Renteria for Coco.  I would suggest they actually got an incredible value for him.
I'm not under the impression that CFers have rocket arms, I am under the impression that Sizemores is weak.

by Brandini on Dec 3, 2006 2:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Sizemore does not have a "weak" arm. His arm is league average. The Indians survived for years with Kenny Lofton in CF, and he has an arm that is quite possibly weaker than Grady's. Speed and consistency are more important in CF.
Wait 'til next year... or something like that

by fwembt on Dec 3, 2006 8:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
http://www.topprospectalert.com/grady-sizemore-report.htm
"His arm strength is rather poor"
http://www.tangotiger.net/scouting/scoutResults2005_CLE.html
Arm Strength = 36
Others that have a worse arm: Damon, Logan, Pierre, Clark, Williams, Lofton.
Sorry, when you are in the bottom half of the league, your arm is "weak".
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/more-guns-in-the-outfield-center-and-left-field/
Ranked 17th among CFers - below average.
Has the third lowest Kill Rate.

by Brandini on Dec 3, 2006 11:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I don't doubt your claim that Sizemore has a weak arm for a CF. I do however think that arm strength is probably the least important defensive element for a CF.  My guess is the advantage gained by getting more outs on fly balls from increased range/good routes/quick first steps dramatically outweights the cost of a few extra bases/lost out opportunities.  By all accounts, Sizemore is pretty good at the other defensive aspects of CF.

by APV on Dec 3, 2006 11:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I agree with you that arm strength is not the most telling factor for a CFer.  However, I have a problem with people grouping Grady in the elite for CFers when he has the weakest arm among them (Edmonds, Jones, Wells, Hunter = them).
So MY guess, is that he is a quality CFer because he has great instincts and speed, however, his arm holds him back.  From what I have seen Gutz has similar instincts and speed, but with a more powerful arm.  SO, back to my original point, why are we talking about CF depth when Grady could easily be moved to LF if in fact Gutz developes into atleast the hitter Dellucci is - which is what I expect.

by Brandini on Dec 4, 2006 10:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
because the return on our percieved CF depth through a trade would make trading one or both Crowe or Gutz a possibility. Look all three could play CF with varying ability (Gutz probably the best), thus we could certainly move the other two the the corners, but because it is harder to find good CFs than it is to find good corner OFs (at least this is my understanding), there value to someone else would make them a nice trading chip (not that we HAVE to trade them).

by hans on Dec 4, 2006 8:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Fair enough.  I just don't see how much one could get for either player.  I think a comparable player would have been a Fernando Cabrera clone after the 2005 season.  But even then, a guy with "closer of the future" stamped all over him most teams would be hesitant to part with.
Back to an old thought, not only was signing Dellucci TIME wasted, but that is also 3.5 million that could have been spent elsewhere.

by Brandini on Dec 5, 2006 9:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Oh, the selective presentation of data!

TopProspectAlert.com, as far as I can tell, publishes re-writes of other people's prospect evaluations, possibly re-writes of other poeple's re-writes.  Not a primary source = might as well just take my word for it, rather than theirs.

The TangoTiger poll was for 2005, and also gave Sizemore a 56 for accuracy.  The Hardball Times piece was also in reference to 2005, which was Sizemore's first full season.

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 12:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
"also gave Sizemore a 56 for accuracy."
We were talking about accuracy?  Last I checked this was a discussion about arm strength.

As for my "sources" I was simply using them in order to back up my belief/statement that Grady has a weak arm.  Someone used the Financial Times as one of their sources, so in all honesty, using TopProspectAlert.com is a substantially better source.  However you are right, it is not a primary source, I suppose thats why I used 2 more.

Lastly, THT was based on the 2005 season, a season in which teams were not aware of Gradys throwing ability and quickness to the ball.  But when the 2006 numbers come out, make sure you talk to me about that, just like Jason Davis.

by Brandini on Dec 4, 2006 9:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I think the point is you can't consider arm strength in a vacuum without also considering accuracy.  You can have a cannon arm like Vlad Guerrero, but if you can't hit a cut-off man or the catcher, like Vlad Guerrero, it's not going to do you much good.  

by APV on Dec 4, 2006 10:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
True, you only mentioned arm strength.  I don't see what the point is of looking at "arm strength."  Arm strength affects nothing except the ability of an outfielder to make assists, or at least to provide a credible threat.  The speaks to overall throwing ability, both strength and accuracy.

I look for Grady to continue to make buckets of fine plays in the outfield, while those predisposed to naysaying continue to fret about his arm.  Grady's arm is unimpressive, but it's not the useless noodle that Damon is carrying around, and Damon remains a very effective defender at his position.

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
It's strange that we would be talking about Grady, My guess if we him on the market we could get any player we wanted.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 4, 2006 11:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
The list of players we couldn't get for him would be unbelievably short.

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Sorry, what does short mean?
I imagine there is something in the 20-30 range of players that other GMs would laugh at if offered Sizemore for.  If that list is so short and names such as Ryan Howard or Roy Halladay are on that list, the Indians are idiots for not making that deal!

by Brandini on Dec 4, 2006 5:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
It's probably about ten players long. With our young position players in place, we don't have many offensive needs. Pujols and Mauer (if we stuck Vic at 1B or dealt him) are the only names that come to mind, though I'm sure I'm forgetting someone. We would never trade Sizemore for Howard, and the Phillies would never trade Howard for Sizemore. However, in a vacuum, Sizemore has more trade value than him. It's easy to undervalue Grady simply because he plays here, but don't forget...this kid put up a .315 EqA and played a solid center field at 23. And he's only going to get better, folks.

by Kos on Dec 4, 2006 9:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Here's Silver's list from the start of last year (ESPN).  More or less on point with this discussion.  Sizemore is number 14.  (yeah, I see #15).  He certainly didn't do anything during the season last year to ruin his chances.

by dgcambridge on Dec 4, 2006 9:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I hope he updates that list this year.  Pretty sure Barfield would be on it.

That list, by the way, was without regard to contract status -- it's just a list of who's projected to be the most valuable over 2006-2011.

Factoring in contract status, Sizemore clearly vaults ahead of guys like A-Rod, who may be better but not $100 million better, and even guys like Miguel Cabrera, who's only under control for three years rather than six.

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 11:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Factoring in contracts, you could argue that Grady is more valuable than everyone on the list except for Joe Mauer. David Wright, Felix Hernandez, Justin Verlander, Brian McCann, and Ryan Zimmerman (and I'm sure I'm forgetting someone else) belong in the discussion, too. Grady could easily be #2 on that list, but if the Twins offered us Mauer for Sizemore, I don't see any way we could pass that up.

by Kos on Dec 5, 2006 12:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I would add Cano, Liriano, Cain, Hamels.
There has to be some minor leaguers out there that appear to be locks to be major league quality hitters.

by Brandini on Dec 5, 2006 9:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Neither Cano nor Liriano, due to talent and injury respectively, are in this echelon.  And few prospects can touch the top ten, although several (including Marte) made the top 50 a year ago.

by Jay on Dec 5, 2006 12:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I love the way you lead with your chin on this stuff.

Assuming they'd have time to make other moves to adjust, every GM in the game would take Sizemore for Howard or Halladay, straight up.  It's not even a close call.

You really don't understand the value of players and their contracts one bit, do you?

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 10:51 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Actually, I heard no talk of contracts...
However, even if it was assumed, we are talking a CY Young winner and an MVP not two slouches from off the street.
Don't get me wrong, I really like Sizemore, but I don't see him being THAT great of a major leaguer to ever compete for an MVP - by compete i am referring to being in the top 3.

I suppose you don't understand how great Halladay and Howard are...

by Brandini on Dec 5, 2006 8:19 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I think I understand fairly thoroughly how great they are.  They're both absolutely and completely great.  But Sizemore matched them in overall production last year, and he's the only one of the three likely to improve.  And it's the GM's themselves who made up the axiom:  "You don't trade players, you trade contracts."

by Jay on Dec 5, 2006 12:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I am not "fret"ing about his arm, I am simply saying, if the offensive dropoff between Gutz/Crowe and Dellucci is that small, MAKE THE MOVE.  That would mean that the Indians do not have a surplus of CF depth...

Wow, connect the dots!

by Brandini on Dec 4, 2006 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
If Crowe isn't going to push Sizemore to left field, than why isn't he considered to be more of a trade-able prospect?

Who says he isn't?  For all we know he's been in a dozen trade discussions.

Wouldn't it be the whole Coco in left field thing all over again?

Not exactly.  I think they're very intrigued by Crowe as a potential leadoff hitter.  I think he might have similar contact and power profile to Coco, but Crowe is also known as a remarkably selective hitter, considering he's not a slugger.

So he may not push Grady out CF, but he may push him out of the leadoff spot.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 1:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
The fact that Crowe hits from both sides doesn't hurt his value at the top of the lineup...at some point in the future.

by The DiaTriber on Dec 3, 2006 7:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Hows this : Crowe and Lee(+ Slocum) for Wells and put Carmona in the rotation as a fifth starter and let him mature so we can realy make a push....
GermanysTribeFan

by GermanysTribeFan on Dec 1, 2006 5:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
all that for one year of Vernon Wells?

Lee is signed for the next three years with a fairly reasonable club option for 2010.  Crowe would be years of virtually free production if he pans out.  I want more back for them than a rent-a-player, even an elite one.

by nctribefan on Dec 1, 2006 11:01 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Just think it is funny we want a ton for Westbrook and he is a rent-a-player.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 1, 2006 11:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
While very true, SP is usually the most prized commodity in any market. Not saying Wells isn't worth a ton, he is, but our asking price for Westbrook is pretty dependant on what the market is today for SP, which is fairly slim.

by talonk on Dec 2, 2006 12:28 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
And the market for CFers is deep?
Sarge and Pierre just signed huge free agent contracts.  Lee and Soriano just signed two of the most awful contracts (due to length and age) in recent memory.
I would say Westbrook would bring in a third of what Wells would.

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 4:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Oh no no no.  Wells would bring more, but not that much more.  Any reliable, good starting pitcher at reasonable salary is going to command a king's ransom at this point.

Look at what the Red Sox had to give up to get Beckett, who was only under control for two more years.  They had to agree to pay Beckett and Lowell some $30 million for those two years, and nobody was sure Lowell could even stay in the lineup.

And for the privilege of doing that, they had to give up four prospects, led by Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez.

Now it is true that Beckett has "#1 stuff," but his track record for putting up dozens of quality starts is quite a bit less than Westbrook's.

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 4:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Stuff typically outweighs performance.  So does age.  Look at the free agent market.  One of the surest bets this offseason is Greg Maddux, however his contract will be significantly less (when you look at the final dollar amounts) then that of say Gil Meche or Ted Lilly.  Even forgetting what Maddux has done first the first decade of his career, the last few seasons have arguably been better then Meche and Lilly.  I think age+stuff are larger selling features then raw numbers+durability.

by Brandini on Dec 5, 2006 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
For Wells...I think it would take a lot more.
Lee would count as major league ready talent and his contract is nice.  But I don't see a #3/#4 starter being the building block for any trading involving Wells.
Crowe is also a nice piece, but is fairly far away and is no sure thing.
Slocum is again a nice piece, but I don't see him as anything the Jays don't already have in their system.

If the Jays have a terrible April/May, then this may be realistic, but until then, I think it would take atleast one top prospect to net Wells - see the Sheffield trade.

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 4:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I wouldn't trade 4 years of Cliff Lee at a great salary for one year of Vernon Wells, even straight up.  I'm sure Shapiro wouldn't either.

I WOULD trade Lee + for 4 years of Carl Crawford, who also has a team-favorable salary.  But the Dellucci signing and Shapiro's comments about hanging on to his starters, makes that trade seem very unlikely now.

by Chiefroy on Dec 2, 2006 12:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
We've been over and over this.  As a non-slugging lefty, Crawford would add less to our lineup than he would to most other lineups.  He would be a downgrade from Cliff Lee in terms of our overall roster.

by Jay on Dec 2, 2006 12:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Crawford's power #s have increased in each of the last three years.  His lefty-righty splits aren't drastically different.  I think he's much like Sizemore in terms of HR potential, and could easily hit 25-30 HRS, starting next year and beyond.  He's only 25 years old.

Like I said, it's a highly unlikely trade now, and I would only consider trading Lee if we obtained an equal replacement starter first.  Crawford and Sizemore at the top of our batting order and roaming our outfield for the next 4 years would make for an exciting combo, though merely a fantasy of mine it may be.

by Chiefroy on Dec 2, 2006 1:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I agree with you.
But mostly because I have lost a lot of faith in Lee and have a feeling his decent salary is going to look very ugly in the books in 2 seasons.

Also, I feel as though a Carmona or a cheap free agent could fill Lees void - ie Thompson.

by Brandini on Dec 2, 2006 1:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I think you should take a good look at Adam Eaton's resume, consider that he just got a $25 million deal, and explain to us again how Cliff Lee's contract is ever going to look bad, short of a serious injury.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 1:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Because I anticipate Lee to take yet another step back.
I'm trying to figure out when ANYONE said Adam Eaton's contact was a quality signing?  Every year there is a large grouping of pathetic free agent signings does that mean a player who is just as bad - potentially worse - has a good contract because it is cheaper???

by Brandini on Dec 3, 2006 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
...I would only consider trading Lee if we obtained an equal replacement starter first.

I'm confused.  So what would you give up for Crawford?
 

by dgcambridge on Dec 2, 2006 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Lee + whatever.  It would be perhaps doubtful that they would want an OF, so maybe more pitching....Guthrie, Slocum maybe, or even Lofgren or Lewis....Mulhearn, Head, Drennan...Cliff Lee alone is a pretty good return, but I'd add a couple of prospects if they wanted....I'd give 'em Garko or Crowe w/Lee, but NOT both....whatever they wanted within reason, meaning not Lee AND Adam Miller or Fausto Carmona.

I'm not exactly down on Cliff Lee and I'm in no hurry to trade him.  I'm just really high on Crawford and think he has MVP potential in the near future.  He's certainly AllStar caliber and a proven commodity...and under team control for 4 more years.  Not gonna happen though, and yes, I want a real closer.  Top priority right now.

by Chiefroy on Dec 2, 2006 4:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
Crawford and Sizemore at the top of our batting order and roaming our outfield for the next 4 years would make for an exciting combo, though merely a fantasy of mine it may be.

Crawford and Sizemore have a combined career OBP of .300 against left-handed pitchers.  If having them at the top of the lineup -- in the AL Central -- is your fantasy, I have to wonder what team you're rooting for.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 1:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
I agree that Crawford isn't a good fit for the tribe (considering what it would take to get him), but I also think the concern that the AL Central is dominated by left-handed starters isn't important for the tribe... namely b/c we are the most left handed (with CC, Lee, and Sowers) and thus the biggest contributors to that notion.  However, looking at our opponents in the division, i see:

Detroit, 2/5 (Rogers, Robertson)
Chicago, 1/5 (Buerhle),
Minnesota, 1/5 (Santana, but he's equally tough on righties)
KC 1/5 (Odalis Perez... but still, it's the royals, so who knows what their rotation will look like)

Thus, is 25% really that high of a percentage?  The reason I like the Dellucci signing is I think we're susceptible to right handed pitching.  With Marte, Peralta, and Barfield all going everyday, we couldn't have Michaels in there too.  not to mention Garko and Blake, who both hit lefties better in 06.

by kwoog on Dec 3, 2006 1:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
You make some good points.  The division looked more lefty coming into last season.  I still think you don't want those two players back-to-back in your lineup, ready to be neutralized in a late-inning situation like Jim Thome.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2006 5:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
No need to wonder about my loyalty Jay, I've been rooting for the Cleveland Indians since the days of Sam McDowell, Luis Tiant, etc. I'm pretty sure I've suffered through more bad Tribe teams than years you have even been alive.

Crawford and Sizemore are, as you should be well aware, both still young and improving.  Grady has done well enough as our leadoff hitter, but Crawford has done better, and I would drop Grady down to the second spot.  Crawford had a .341 OBP vs lefties last year.  Grady should improve vs lefties also, but if you would prefer him about #6 in the order, fine.

Actually, we could probably use Barfield at leadoff vs lefties, with Crawford at #2.  And "top of the lineup" doesn't have to be set in stone.... If both Carl C. and Grady continue their progression, they could be batting 3 and 4 by 2010...or sooner.

Vs. righties, I'd have Crawford and Sizemore batting 1-2, lefty relievers be damned.  I'm for knocking out the starter as quick as I can. Of course we COULD use Victor behind Crawford.  Crawford's gonna be standing on second or third  a lot, so Victor may not hit into the DP quite so often. If we had a righty infielder or RFer(Jason M....Gutz?) that could do the job better, I'd have no problem batting him second.  But I'd be more worried about Peralta/Marte/Barfield vs all the righties they'll see, than C.C./Grady/Hafner vs any lefty reliever.

I really can't see how some people feel Crawford is not a good "fit" for this team.  If I could have 9 Crawfords and Sizemores, I'd have a hittin', sluggin', basestealin', run scorin', flyball catchin' buncha sumbeetches.

by Chiefroy on Dec 3, 2006 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Prospect list - position players
You've made a good case, we're just going to disagree about it.  Of course I'd love to see Crawford on the team, I just think it's very far from the best place to shoot our bullets, given the duplication of skills with Sizemore.

For what it's worth, I'd probably bat them Crawford-righty-Sizemore-Hafner against lefties.  Sizemore (so far) needs more protection than Crawford, and Hafner scares even lefties.

by Jay on Dec 4, 2006 4:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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