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Yet Another Prospect List

Ryan asked me a while back if I wanted to do my own list of prospects alongside his. Of course I did -- everybody loves making lists, and everybody loves their own opinion -- but I wondered, what could I, an innocent bystander, possibly contribute to the discussion of who our best prospects are? It's a fair question: Do we really need another list of Indians prospects?

And the answer is ... Yes. The average, non-prospect-obsessed Indians fan needs to know, which of these guys do I really need to know about? If I'm not going to read Baseball America every week, who really matters? Who is the cream of the crop? And most of all, who is likely to make an impact on our Cleveland Indians team this season, or at least next season? In a nutshell: What prospects are worth getting excited about?

So I have devised a simple formula which I call the Exciting Prospect Standard, or EPS. This does not yield a list of the Indians "top prospects." It is not a vague stew of upside, performance and risk. The EPS attempts to identify: Which guys are the most likely to contribute to the Indians winning a pennant? Which guys are going to contribute the most, and which guys are going to contribute the soonest? With that in mind, and reminding everyone once again that I know next to nothing about scouting, the EPS highlights players who:

(a) are the closest to the majors
(b) have demonstrated high-quality performance that is also projectable
(c) are young enough to have a high probability of continued improvement
(d) are healthy enough to have a strong chance of taking a real shot

To get a list of players like that, I've made a few other rules about what makes a prospect "worth getting excited about." An exciting prospect is one who probably will contribute to the major-league club even if everything doesn't go perfectly in his development. In other words, even if he doesn't advance one level every year, even if he isn't completely lucky with new and old injuries. Also, a prospect's skills realistically can develop rapidly through age 25, but probably not much after that point. An exciting prospect is one who realistically is on pace to contribute in the majors by age 25.

So aside from health concerns, here's what we're looking for:

  • Successful Triple-A players age 25 or younger.
  • Successful Double-A players age 23 or younger.
  • Successful High-A players age 21 or younger.
  • Successful Low-A players age 19 or younger.
  • Successful short-season players age 17 or younger.

In general, "successful" means ready to graduate to the next level, or well on his way to that goal. It generally means solidly above-average stats across the board, combined with solid peripherals. Mediocre peripherals might be acceptable if the overall numbers are great, or if a player is particularly young. Mediocre rate stats might be okay if the peripherals are eye-popping. If the Indians say a guy is exciting, the EPS does not take their word for it. If the Indians say a guy is ready to move up a level, however, the EPS does take their word for it. Actions speak louder than words. Yes, I have made a few judgment calls, but for the most part I have let the EPS do the work for me.

As a rule, beyond the basic rate stats, strikeouts are the key indicator for both hitting and pitching prospects. Strikeouts are bad for hitters, because they suggest that their skills will not translate very well at higher levels. A pretty good OPS with high strikeouts is not considered a successful season. Of course we're grading on a curve with respect to rate stats and skill position players, but piles of strikeouts aren't going to get you to the majors regardless of your position. For the opposite reason, with few exceptions, pitchers must have high strikeout rates. In general, relievers are not exciting prospects. Relievers must have obscenely high strikeout rates, especially below Double-A. Rafael Betancourt posted 14.89 K/9 in Akron in 2002, and that's pretty much the benchmark as far as I'm concerned.

The EPS may seem to discriminate heavily against players in the low minors. That's because it does. Players who are far from the majors are inherently less exciting. They may have lots of upside, five tools and a great signing bonus. But if I'm going to get excited about a prospect who's still two or three years away, he's got to be young and kicking some serious ass, and he's got to be a potential star. At the same time, the EPS gives a wide berth to young players who succeed at higher levels, what I call the Peralta Principle. Jhonny Peralta was an above-average player at Double-A at age 20 and graduated to Triple-A. Having already achieved that much at such a young, he could take another four years to graduate to the majors and still be considered a good prospect. Of course, he didn't need anything close to four years -- early-bloomers usually don't.

This way of looking at it excludes quite a few of the "usual suspects" from my list. That's fine with me. These are not our best prospects, by any definition. They're the prospects who are worth getting excited about, right here and right now. I did not make any attempt to prune the list to a specific number, 10 or 12 or 20 or 30. Either a prospect met the criteria above or he didn't, and there were only a few borderline cases. I also didn't spend too much time coming up with the specific ranking. You can generally assume that the ones near the top are slam-dunks, the ones lower down less so. So without further ado ...

Indians Prospects Worth Getting Excited About, March 2006
Listed with position, age as of April 1, and ranking on other Top Prospect lists.

1. ANDY MARTE - 22 - third base. Not even a close call. Marte knocks the EPS right on its ass. Ryan - 1, BA - 1, BP - 1, Sickels - 1.

2. FERNANDO CABRERA - 24 - reliever. There's only one bad thing you can say about Cabrera: He's only a reliever. There is every reason to think he can be an elite reliever in the major leagues. He utterly dominated Triple-A pitchers last season at age 23, and major league hitters fared little better in 31 innings last season. No other Indians prospect is so thoroughly done with Triple-A competition. He is already a quality major-leaguer, with the upside of an All-Star closer. Ryan - 4, BA - 9, BP - 3, Sickels - 3

3. JEREMY SOWERS - 22 - starter. Sowers was just a bit old for his league as he breezed through Kinston around his 22nd birthday. A couple weeks later, he moved up to Double-A and pitched even better -- increasing his strikeouts, cutting back the walks and giving up a mere 19 earned runs in 82 innings. The bad news is, he may never be better than a number-three starter in the majors. The good news is, he may ALREADY be that good right now. He'll likely get a full run in Triple-A as a final tuneup. That's ideal, even though it may not be necessary. Ryan - 2, BA - 3, BP - 2, Sickels - 2

4. RYAN GARKO - 25 - 1B/C. Garko's rise to the brink of the majors has been brief and unrelenting. If he can find a position, he seems quite likely to be a very good hitter for the better part of a decade. Ryan - 5, BA - 6, Sickels - 6

5. FAUSTO CARMONA - 22 - starter. Carmona followed a breakout season in 2003 at Lake County with less flashy numbers in Akron in 2004 and 2005. Nonetheless, he reached Buffalo at age 21, mid-2005, and pitched very well there. He's an unusual prospect in that he has succeeded persistently without great strikeout numbers. That is reason enough to doubt his potential, but Triple-A success at age 21 speaks for itself. Moreover, his velocity has started to hit the mid-90s and may yet continue to improve as he continues to mature physically. He lacks Sowers' pure savvy and ability to fool hitters, but like Sowers he may already be ready to pitch in the majors -- and he's eight months younger. Ryan - 6, BA - 5, Sickels - 17

6. ADAM MILLER - 21 - starter. Forget the hype. Miller's position on this list is based on the plain facts. He's 21 and ready for Double-A hitters. A year from now he could well be 22 and ready for Triple-A hitters. That's two years more advanced than he needs to be to make this list. He's got a huge work ethic and can throw 100 mph. On the other hand, he's already had injury problems and is two years away from escaping "the nexus." Otherwise, he'd be at the top of this list. Ryan - 3, BA - 2, Sickels - 9

7. BRAD SNYDER - 23 - outfielder. In some respects, Snyder barely clears the EPS, as the best we can say for him is that he hit well at age 23 in Double-A. He hasn't graduated Double-A just yet, and you could argue he strikes out way too much to be projectable. Snyder made steady strides in 2005, however, and his raw talent is hard to ignore. In the field, he has the range to play center and enough arm to play right. At the plate, he can flat crush the ball -- and while this may make him sound like Gutierrez or Escobar, he makes better contact and uses the whole field better. He could be poised for a breakout in 2006, and he could well be the Indians' starting right fielder in 2007. Ryan - 8, BA - 4, Sickels - 5

8. CHUCK LOFGREN - 20 - starter. Lofgren had a sensational full-season debut at Lake County, striking out nearly 9 per 9 with a 2.81 ERA. Lofgren is the only player on this list who will start the season below Double-A. Also, just for kicks, apparently a real potential two-way threat, except that the Indians told him he couldn't DH anymore after he got into a collision at the plate. Ryan - 12, BA - nada!, Sickels - 11

9. ED MUJICA - 21 - reliever. Struck out nearly 10 per 9, reaching Double-A in June just after his 21st birthday. "Only a reliever," but dominant stats all-around at a young age, you have to wonder if he isn't almost ready to be in the majors. Part of the new breed of elite relief prospects. Ryan - nada!, BA - nada!, Sickels - 13

10. ANDREW BROWN - 25 - reliever. Brown spent the whole season in Triple-A at age 24, and he struck out almost as many hitters as Cabrera. His ERA was solid but not flashy -- the strikeouts, walks and WHIP all looked great. No doubt the Indians would be quite comfortable with him in Cleveland, but they will make use of his remaining option year for extra depth and flexibility this season. Half a bonus point for being a local; Brown is from Chardon. Ryan - 19, BA - nada!, Sickels - 10

11. FRANKLIN GUTIERREZ - 23 - outfielder. Was not on this list in September, but I was won over by his triumphant winter. Gutierrez expected to be promoted to Triple-A to start 2005, but the Indians sent him back to Double-A with instructions to dramatically alter his approach. He worked hard by all accounts, but the statistical results were not impressive. His work finally started to bear fruit in winter ball, and he was the MVP of the Carribean Series. Gutierrez will be 23 in Triple-A, and his speed and prodigious defense give him a lot of ways potentially to contribute. If he can really get a handle on his contact hitting, he's a threat to hit 40 home runs. Ryan - 7, BA - 7, Sickels - nada!

12. KELLY SHOPPACH - 25 - catcher. Marginally makes this list based on his age, but he arguably was ready to be a major league catcher a year ago. Shoppach seems unlikely to set the world on fire, but he seems quite likely to be a solid major leaguer, right now. Ryan - 9, BA - 8, Sickels - 15.

The Big Snubs: I join Ryan in snubbing Trevor Crowe, who made the Top Ten for both Sickels and BA. Stephen Head was ranked #11 by both Ryan and BA, and Sickels put him at #4. Michael Aubrey was ranked between #10 and #16 on those lists. According to the EPS, none of these prospects are worth getting excited about. Neither Head nor Crowe has accomplished anything in a full-season league, and both are 22 years old, so they're way off the radar as far as the EPS is concerned. I can't find anyone to say that Aubrey is better than a 50-50 bet to ever stay healthy enough to have 500 AB in a season. Even if he's healthy, he'll be turning 24 in April with a lot still to prove in Double-A. Not very exciting.

The "Interesting" List: Here are 12 more players who can make next year's "Exciting" list given a strong season at their next stop: Tony Sipp, Ryan Mulhern, Aaron Laffey, Nick Pesco, Ben Francisco, Michael Aubrey, Ivan Ochoa, J.D. Martin, Dan Denham, Jake Dittler, Rafael Perez, Bear Bay.

Interesting Non-Prospects: Jason Davis, Kaz Tadano and Brandon Phillips ... all still just 25 years old as of Opening Day.

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Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Nice list. I'm definitely higher on Gutierrez than most people though for some reason. I did hear that one reason he struggled this year was because he was battling injuries, don't know if there is any truth to that.

Also, he will be 23 in AAA this year not 24

by Joe. on Feb 22, 2006 11:16 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Fixed the age reference, thanks. I heard nothing about Gutierrez injuries last season ... the season before maybe. Fact is, Gutierrez also kicked butt in winter ball a year ago, but it didn't help him back in the U.S. At some point, he has to produce over here, where it really counts, to be blunt. He squeaked onto the list in part because he changed his approach so radically in winter ball and still came out a success. I think that's a hell of an indicator, and for me, a nice tie-breaker.

by Jay on Feb 22, 2006 11:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Here's what BA said about Gutierrez's injuries in their top 10 prospect list:

"Nagging injuries have been the problem. He had minor elbow surgery in 2004, and he sprained a knee in April and dislocated his left middle finger in June last year."

So perhaps we can increase his rating because his 2005 numbers may have been higher without injuries, but then we need to reduce his rating because he gets injured so often ???

by kov on Feb 23, 2006 2:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I would have put Jason Davis somewhere in the top 10, with his stuff he could still make it big. I was hoping we would give him a shot at the  5th starter spot this year.  I still do not see why we picked up Johnson, does he really have a big edge on Davis?  Davis is seven years younger and has better heat.  The FO just does not seem to know what to do with him, is he a starter or reliever?
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 22, 2006 11:54 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Well, the way I see it, any decent major league starter should be pretty much blowing hitters away in Triple-A, and Davis hasn't. In fact, Davis had basically the same numbers in Buffalo that Johnson had in Detroit. PECOTA thinks Johnson's about two wins better, for whatever that's worth. I didn't seriously consider Davis for my list, since he's not a prospect by any common definition. Even if I had, frankly, at his age, he'd have to be pitching better in Triple-A to make the list. Forgetting the technicalities, I don't see how he's any better of a "prospect" than Brandon Phillips. Same age, and basically the same achievements.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 12:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
he was 8-5 at AAA and 4-2 with the tribe, 3-1 as a starter, and he is still only 25, same age as Brown, who's stats did not look any better than Davis's, that is until they moved him to the pen last year.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 12:18 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
That's an interesting point, but it doesn't change either player's status at this moment.  Brown pitched 26 fewer innings than Davis and struck out four more batters -- a huge K rate difference.

If and when the Indians move Davis to the bullpen AND he blows everybody away like Brown, then he's going to be a much more exciting player to consider, wouldn't you agree?

But that's a couple of ifs away, and no telling when.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 12:25 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
yes I agree, it's just a shame to see a guy with his stuff not make it.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 12:33 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
With Phillips, you get the impression that the organization doesn't know what to do with him because he hasn't performed.

I don't think that's true with Davis.  I was glad to see Johnson picked up.  Even if think Davis might be just as good, I'd rather have 6 decent SP.  Someone will likely get hurt this time around.

Or maybe Davis will end up in the pen.  My point is, Texas, Davis is in excellent position to help this team this year in a signficant way.  If he performs.  But he'll spend some time if Buffalo too.

by dgcambridge on Feb 23, 2006 8:28 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Jay,

Great list, very well written and thought-out, as usual. One thought before I go to bed: it is severely understating the case to say that "you could argue [Snyder] strikes out way too much to be projectable." Anybody is projectable -- I can run 1000 sims and in one of them Alex Escobar is bound to turn into a decent major leaguer. So he's "projectable." I don't think anybody would question Snyder's upside. The problem I see is that his K rate is consistently getting worse as he climbs the ladder, and its going to prevent him from reaching that upside. The number of guys who are productive major league hitters while striking out in 1 of every 3 ABs is... well, it's a really small number. I can't think of any, can you?

by mrich on Feb 23, 2006 12:10 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I was using the word "projectable" in the common Baseball America usage ... that is, projectable with significant probability. Actually, Branyan has been a pretty productive hitter for a 3B. I think if he were less of a jerk he'd get more regular work. The Indians say Snyder is a fundamentally better hitter than the K totals would indicate, and he jacked up a 1020 OPS in the fall league. I know, it's a weird league, it's a small sample, but I'm just a sucker for a 1000-plus OPS, any age, any level.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 12:21 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Jim Thome, Adam Dunn, and Preston Wilson off the top of my head.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 12:28 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I refuse to take this list seriously unless it includes a factor for CNP, or Cool Nickname Potential.

by mkwng on Feb 23, 2006 12:28 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
hey, do any of you guys know when JD Martin will be back from his injury? I know he got TJ surgery but I was wondering how long they are estimating him to take.

by Joe. on Feb 23, 2006 2:31 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
He had TJ surgery in July, and is supposed to be joining Mahoning Valley when they start in June.  I'd expect mediocre things from him this year - maybe good numbers by August...maybe not.  But I'd love to see him with a strong elbow in 2007, his numbers this past year, when healthy, were his best yet.

by Thommy on Feb 23, 2006 10:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Yeah, J.D. did seem to finally be having that big breakout year when he went down. Then again, it was only ten games, and we'll never know how he'd have held up over the whole season. I agree with you, it will be a big surprise if he does anything impressive before 2007, at which point he'll be 24 and possibly still in Double-A. So he's pretty far off the radar at the moment.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:53 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Can someone post a link to Ryan's prospect list?  Thanks

by nilla on Feb 23, 2006 9:42 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
His updated list (with Marte and Shoppach) is here:

http://www.letsgotribe.com/story/2006/2/3/184416/6030

And that links to his original list as well.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:32 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I like the apporach of the list as a cheat sheet for the casual fan, and for a different perspective on top prospects.  But I would like to weigh in on something you said in the intro.

You say that "As a rule, beyond the basic rate stats, strikeouts are the key indicator for both hitting and pitching prospects".  I've got no problem with the pitching side of that, but I think you are overstepping the bounds of what we know about K rates for hitters.

There is some evidence that high strikeout rates is a positive development for some power hitters (I believe this also assumes relatively high walk rates). Sorting by SLG, 15 of the top 20 in MLB struck out more than 109 times, and, ballparking it, strike out 1.5 - 2 times more than they walk.

I don't mean to overcriticize your point, but I believe that while K rate is something to keep an eye on, it doesn't necessarily mean higher than average (or even very high) K rates are a bad thing.  I can't believe I'm saying this, but I point to fanintexas' earlier post - See Thome, Jim and Dunn, Adam.

 

by Thommy on Feb 23, 2006 11:11 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
But look, not only are Thome and Dunn both highly unusual for their ability to K a lot with lots of power and lots of BBs, but they both struck out significantly less and walked significantly more than Snyder in the minors.

Thank goodness for the Baseball Cube. These are minor league totals:

AB/K
Snyder: 3.31
Thome: 4.73
Dunn: 4.47

BB/K
Snyder: 0.43
Thome: 0.79
Dunn: 0.86

AB/HR
Snyder: 26.7
Thome: 27.8
Dunn: 20.9

I'm not saying that Thome and Dunn aren't special guys whose K rates don't keep them from being really, really good hitters. I'm arguing (and somehow it seems like I'm on this quixotic quest to prove that Brad Snyder is just not that great of a prospect) that Snyder should not be compared to those guys.

by mrich on Feb 23, 2006 11:35 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
If your point is that Snyder isn't as good of a prospect as Thome or Dunn, and I couldn't agree more.  My post had nothing to do with Brad Snyder, just with some things I've been reading lately about K rates in power hitters in the minors.

Maybe it'll help if I restate my point: strikeout rates for hitters aren't nearly the predictor of major league success (or lack thereof) that strikeout rates are for pitchers.  Furthermore, high K rates in some types of power hitters (assuming they have good BB rates, decent AVG, ISO, etc) may actually be a positive indicator. The number of players this applies to is presumably small, but is worth keeping in mind.  

Actually, I'm with you about Sndyer.  For the kind of player I think he could be, though, it's not the strikeouts I'm worried about alone - it's his plate discipline which has deteriorated since his promotion to Kinston in 2004 (17% BB/PA prior, 10% since), coupled with a questionable ability to hit above .280.  Here's to hoping he regains his excellent plate discipline, because I think his projection as a future major leaguer is tied to it.

Anybody look at Van Every's numbers?  Now that's an interesting player.  389 ABs in AA, .244/.363/.499 with 66 BB and 155 K.  Sign me up to see how he progresses.

by Thommy on Feb 23, 2006 12:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I also noticed Van Every's numbers recently.  Certainly a guy in the Russ Branyan/3 true outcomes mode.  How is Van Every defensively?  I seem to have some idea in the back of my head that he's not very good...

by APV on Feb 23, 2006 12:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Obviously I have caught the BABIP fever, but there is this growing infatuation with "three true outcomes" players that I just don't get.  The fact that a guy profiles out like Kevin Youkilis doesn't make him good -- in fact, it doesn't make him anything at all, good or bad.

The implication is that it makes him more predictable, because the BABIP noise is at a minimum.  But the truth is, there are so few players of this profile, it's hard to know whether that type of player projects particularly well or not.

And as long as Youkilis continues to be denied a starting job -- Mike Lowell? -- it's going to continue to be hard to figure it out.

Those other "not totally true" outcomes make a huge difference in the real world, and a lot of outstanding players rest a significant part of their value on the ability to make hard contact, short of a home run.  Victor Martinez comes to mind.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 1:11 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Hear hear!! I blame BPro for the TTO fetish.

The thing is, in my mind not only are those guys being overrated because they don't provide so many of the good things that can happen when you just put the ball in play, but on the whole they're really boring to watch. Is it really all that interesting watching Kevin Youkilis go up to the plate looking to work a base on balls?

We've gone too far in the other direction, I think, where high batting-average guys are ignored and/or underrated by a lot of neo-saber types and only truly appreciated by casual fans who just want to see something happen on the field!

by mrich on Feb 23, 2006 1:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Seriously, man. It's one thing if we're talking about Jason Giambi. But more often we're talking about JEREMEY Giambi.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 2:22 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I don't think Jeremy Giambi or Youkilis have (or had) enough power to really fit the three true outcomes mold.  When I think of TTO players, I think of guys like Branyan and Adam Dunn.  Guys who strike out a lot, walk a lot, and hit a lot of HRs (and for whom HRs represent a large percentage of their hit total).  I also don't think TTO players are necessarily any better than other players.  I think they are players that, if used effectively, can be productive members of a lineup.  

by APV on Feb 23, 2006 3:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I couldn't agree more.  I don't think that APV or I ever said that a three outcome player meant he was a great prospect.  In fact, it doesn't serve any purpose other than to categorize a type of hitter. These players, in many cases, don't turn out to be a productive major leaguers - please don't misunderstand me (us).

by Thommy on Feb 23, 2006 7:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Jay, can you briefly explain "three true outcome" and it's signifigance.

by Slovenc0417 on Feb 23, 2006 4:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Perhaps Jay will forgive me for stepping in ... The "Three True Outcomes" are so-called because they are the only three outcomes of an at-bat that do not involve any fielders. They are the home run, the walk, and the strikeout. There's nothing especially significant about the three true outcomes, it's just that some players have a higher portion of their at bats end in one of these outcomes (think Rob Deer, Adam Dunn) and TTO is a shorthand way of describing this type of player.

by mrich on Feb 23, 2006 4:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Yes, that's it. But I will not forgive you.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 8:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Yeah, it was never promoted as a good thing ... it just came from a Rany J article comparing Branyan to Deer.  Very fun article.

by dgcambridge on Feb 23, 2006 8:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
strikeout rates for hitters aren't nearly the predictor of major league success (or lack thereof) that strikeout rates are for pitchers. Furthermore, high K rates in some types of power hitters (assuming they have good BB rates, decent AVG, ISO, etc) may actually be a positive indicator.

I have to say, I think this is completely wrong, particularly the second part. But as I don't have the data in front of me to prove it to you, for the moment ... agree to disagree. I'll try to dig up something on the subject at some future point.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 1:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I'm generally deferring on these prospect lists to all of you, who follow them much more closely than me, but I thought that it was less strikeout rates than K/BB ratio.  

Of course, I do remember at one point that Sickels or somebody else was really down on Guthrie, who had good stats otherwise but a steadily declining strikeout rate.  

I'd welcome any clarification on either side of this issue.

by mkwng on Feb 23, 2006 3:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
For me personally, I look at both -- and in some ways, I double-count both K's and BB's.  I look at OBP and walk rate (along with average and slugging), so there's walks.  I look at straight K rate.  And I look at K/BB.

But I only do all this when there's a close call. I'm going to give the guy a pass unless his age is at the max for his level AND his peripherals are lousy AND his OPS is only marginally successful.  If he's a year younger than EPS requires, then I'm not going to sweat the peripherals.  And if the OPS is great, I'm still not going to sweat it.

Basically, the core age-level requirements of EPS are severe enough that I feel I can afford not to be a total hard-ass about peripherals.  But you will not that both Gutierrez and Snyder are borderline as far as EPS.  Both are at the max age for their levels.  Snyder had marginal stats and marginal peripherals, Gutierrez even moreso on both counts.  But I basically gave both of them a pass based on a strong consensus of scouts and the organization, plus both of them had great winters.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 8:23 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
To be fair, the burden of proof falls on me, as I brought up the non-conventional opinion...

Anyway, I found where I read this, and, considering my ability to remember things, it makes sense that it was published yesterday, Feb 22.  It's in BP's "PECOTA takes on prospects, part 3", in a paragraph about 2/3 of the way down starting with the sentence "The better question is how PECOTA..."  I don't want to copy it, but the statement of mine quoted above is in line with the article.  In short, if a player's skills don't require him to make contact a lot (he is productive not b/c of a high AVG, but because he walks a ton and has a high SLG), strikeouts are less of a concern.  Yes, even the part about strikeouts potentially being a positive indicator is in the article.  

I only remember this b/c it caught my eye as being both surprising and insightful.  But I don't blame you, however, for not taking some random guys word for it on a message board.

by Thommy on Feb 23, 2006 7:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Thanks for the tip, I will check that out.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 8:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I defer to mrich on this.  Snyder's K rates are actually much higher than the other guys.

The other point is that you can't just point to a couple of convenient counter-examples, you have to look at the whole sample -- all the successes and all the busts.  And the big picture is, guys with high K rates almost always struggle to get to the next level.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 11:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I also have to emphasize here, as I have on other threads recently, I don't care about major league K's, I care about minor league K's.  Strikeouts don't bother me, but the fact is that they are a big indicator of how prejecatable a player's hitting skills are.

If Double-A pitchers can make him swing and miss a lot, he's going to get killed in Triple-A and the big leagues, where practically every pitcher has a quality breaking ball.  Haven't you heard ... "They throw ungodly breaking stuff in the show."

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 11:58 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Fair enough.  I only meant to make a simple point that strikeouts do not exist in a vacum, and, while they may contribute to poor performance, they do not neccesarily prevent good performance.  If someone struck out 150 times, but hit .280, slugged .500, and walked 100 times would you penalize them for the strikeouts?  Sure, they'd be better if they struck out less, but every player (save Bonds) has his faults.  

by Thommy on Feb 23, 2006 12:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I'm sure you could write my answer for me at this point ... no, I'll take the 900-ish OPS in any form ... in the big leagues. In the minor leagues, I'd say, "Great year, but he's probably going to flop at the next level." And four times out of five, I'd be right.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 1:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I think I mentioned this before, but Gammons said that the Indians look for hitters who walks and extra base hits outnumber their strikeouts.

by dgcambridge on Feb 23, 2006 8:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Marte vs Snyder
Marte at AA 387AB and 105SO
Snyder at AA 304AB and 94SO
If Snyder can make the same type of improvement that Marte did when he jumped to AAA (389AB and 83SO) we may have a good RF by 2007.    
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 2:36 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Snyder had a 3.76 K/BB in Double-A, Marte had 1.81 K/BB.  Plus Marte was coming off an injury.  Plus Marte was 3.5 years younger.

Each of these differences is significant, but the underlying point that I'm trying to make with EPS is that the age is, by far, the biggest factor.

When they finished Double-A, Marte had six full years until his 26th birthday, while Snyder has just a little more than two years.  That is the big difference.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 8:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
my understand is there is a good chance that they both will be at AAA this year, if that is the case we should get a good idea where Snyder fits in. I got a gut feeling that Snyder is going to suprise you this year. I know there is 19 months difference in their ages, but that should not be a major factor. I'm not saying that Snyder is as good a prospect as Marte, but I don't think he is as far back as you do.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 8:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Why are you trying to sell me on Snyder? He's on the list! He's a Prospect Worth Getting Excited About!® That means I'm excited about him!

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
  Good, sorry if I hit a wrong button,  I was just given my option on the guy.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 10:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Jay/Ryan, I don't understand why Trevor Crowe isn't on the "interesting" list.

If short seasons (right out of college) aren't large enough for projecting someone positively, they shouldn't be on the negative end either.  Maybe if someone was clearly overmatched.

Also, I hope you aren't penalizing him for being the opposite of a TTO hitter. As Jay says above, "a lot of outstanding players rest a significant part of their value on the ability to make hard contact, short of a home run."

Obviously we need a full year to get a better handle on him, but what part of national racquetball champion do you guys not understand?

by dgcambridge on Feb 23, 2006 9:24 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
My list is based entirely off minor-league performance and/or my eyeballs. Since I haven't seen Crowe perform, and his performance in Mahoning Valley and Lake County was largely forgetable, he didn't make my list. It's the same reason why Drennan and Weglarz didn't appear on the list; although I appreciate their potential, I like to see at least some good performance before adding them.

 

by Ryan on Feb 24, 2006 10:38 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
First, don't blame Ryan.  This is my monster, I'll take the heat.

The short answer:  Based purely on his accomplishments as a pro ballplayer to date, there is no reason to expect Crowe to make next year's EPS.

The Interesting List is kind of an afterthought.  But the idea is to include players who are, based on age and the level they're expected to be at, just one solidly successful season away from meeting the EPS.  Not a remarkable season, just a solidly successful season.

The classic case is the age-22 guy who is done with A-ball and ready to move to Double-A.  As an A-ball player, he's too old for the EPS.  But now that he's graduated to Double-A, if he succeeds there at age 23, he's in.  That makes him "interesting."  He's just one good season of progress away.

To make the list next year, Crowe will have to be completely finished with Double-A.  He just put up a very mediocre half-season in Rookie ball and Low-A, so we're talking about a three-level jump to make the list.  The Interesting List is for prospects who only need a one-level jump.  And it's amazing how many of them there are!

It is near impossible for any just-drafted player to make the list, and most will not make the Interesting List either.  That's just fine.  Remember, the purpose of the list is to identify those prospects who ALREADY should be on a major-league fan's radar.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 9:56 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Fair enough.  I think Crowe is interesting (if not interesting-list interesting) because we don't have a lot of contact guys, though Aubrey potentially has contact ability with some pop (i.e. special).

Don't get me wrong, I still like Head better.  We'll see how they progress together.

by dgcambridge on Feb 23, 2006 10:30 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Of course, a further refinement would be to figure out how college performance might be used.  BP recently made some mention of this in those same PECOTA prospect articles.

by dgcambridge on Feb 23, 2006 10:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I respect that college stats are important in evaluating prospects.  But they have no place in the EPS.  Until you see what they can achieve with wood bats, playing every day as a profession, against professional competition, there are just too many variables for the casual fan to be bothered with someone like that.

Certainly Guthrie and Aubrey are banner examples of why the casual Indians fan doesn't need to know about college draftees until they've really accomplished something in pro ball.  You may note that neither of those guys EVER made the EPS.  Remember Guthrie lighting it up in Double-A?  He was already 24.  Aubrey cleaning up in Kinston?  He was 22.  Too old, too old!

In case I haven't made it clear, the point is not to BOTHER casual fans with every prospect who comes along and does something.  The EPS is for my brothers and friends, who are less prospect-fanatical than the people posting in this forum!

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Sorry for not saying it earlier: this list is a great idea.  I agree that most fans don't want/need to know about 30 prospects.  In fact, that would just make people all the more skeptical of prospects.

Of course,  I couldn't help myself from arguing about players with 200 pro ABs, because I'm slightly insane.  Which is why I feel at home on this site.

But I like the EPS approach, and agree with the main list.

by dgcambridge on Feb 24, 2006 8:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Head may jump ahead of Aubrey this year, I have heard Aubrey's back is acting up again. The guy can't buy a break.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 10:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I think if Aubrey is healthy, Head will have trouble passing him. If Aubrey isn't healthy, there won't be much point in continuing to talk about him at all. I have high hopes for Head.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
dgcambridge's comments got me to thinking ... and I realized that The Interesting List was totally wrong, too many players on it.  I think I must have made a copy-paste error from an early draft and didn't realize it until now.  I have removed quite a few names from the Interesting List and added a couple.  I think it is consistent now with the "rules" I set up.

In checking over the list, I did run across an interesting borderline case in Ben Francisco.  Like Snyder and Gutierrez, he was 23 at Double-A, and like them he had a good-not-great OPS.  His peripherals, in particular his walk-rate, kept him off my list, plus the lack of prodigious defensive skills and scouting reports and winter ball heroics.  Also a close call, though.

Not making the list doesn't mean anything bad about a prospect.  He could still be a great prospect, making slow progress.  But he doesn't need to be on a major-league fan's radar YET.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Did you see the comment by the FO that Ben may make it to the majors before Snyder and Gutierrez, because he fits in as 4th outfielder?
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 23, 2006 10:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
I did see that. It's a funny backhanded compliment. They're basically saying, we don't see him as a big-league starter, so we don't really care if he gets regular at-bats or not.

by Jay on Feb 23, 2006 10:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
From my point of view, I think he'd do well as a fourth outfielder, but not as a starter. He doesn't really fit that well at any particular position, but he can get by at any of them. Plus he has some speed, which would really help in late-inning situations. I'd love to see him make the team, but I have a feeling Todd Hollandsworth and his "experience" will be too much much to overcome.

by Ryan on Feb 24, 2006 10:41 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Okay, but, as a serious question, would you really want to see Francisco "win the job" in Spring Training? Wouldn't you be a little surprised and/or disappointed to see the Indians making decisions that way?

by Jay on Feb 24, 2006 11:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Yet Another Prospect List
Why would I be disappointed? I don't think Hollandsworth does much for the Indians. He's not going to (or at least shouldn't) platoon with Michaels or Blake, he's no