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Reserving a trade topic for 2009

I think all of the discussion about the Crisp/Marte deal brings up a bigger point.  In this current baseball economics, small and medium market teams need a constant influx of cheaper talent to sustain their success.  Even if you discard most of the Moneyball sabermetrics, you have to say that developing players and trading them when they get expensive, like the A's do, is the best way to ensure long-term success (as opposed to the go for broke, rebuild and hope that you can get to the top again).  It appears that the Tribe believes this.  So we are going to face more situations where we trade a good player for prospects.  And you have to give up someone good to get good players back.  

I want to be the first one to talk about the next big deal.  Let me look into the future...

Date:  January, 2009

I am in favor of the proposed trade that would send Travis Hafner, X (a useful player that the Tribe is slightly overpaying, like a RP we received in a trade or our current stopgap in LF or 2B), and Y (a AAA pitching prospect with a low ceiling) for the LA/Anaheim/Beverly Hills/LaBrea Angels' top OF prospect, a scrappy middle IF and a hot AA arm.

Let me give you the reasons why I like this trade.  Sure it is risky, but the Tribe should pull the trigger.  Everyone believes that the OF prospect will be an All-Star.  BA has him rated in their top 5 prospects for the second year in a row.  And John Sickles actually drools at the mere mention of his name.  At age 20, he set records for slugging percentage in AAA.  His control of the strike zone is tremendous, with a 3.0 BB/K rate.  He projects as a good defensive RF, with a plus arm and good speed.  In 60 AB's in the bigs, he hit only .200, but with 7HR, 4 2B and 1 3B.  He has two years before he becomes arbitration eligible, so he will be paid below market for the near future.

From the Tribe's side, Hafner has been a little nicked up the last two years.  He has averaged just below 130 games per year.  While this is not bad, we all know that sluggers can decline rapidly in their mid 30's.  Also, the Tribe has a handful of good 1B/DH prospects.  While they may only replace 80% of Pronk's production, they will make only 10% of his salary.  

During the Tribes rapid ascension from 2004-2006, they reached contracts with a great core of players.  Now Sizemore, Peralta, Martinez, Lee and Sabathia could be free agents within a short window.  Add to that closer Bear Bay (who knew?) and Cy Young winner Adam Miller, both of whom have not been signed to extensions, and will become free agents in 2009, and you can see it will be impossible to keep this team together.  C.C.'s new agent, Scott Boras, has already said that C.C. is one of a handful of "landmark free agents, who demand contracts over a decade and stock options from the team."  No one honestly believes that a pitcher will get a 14 year contract.  But Boras did get Detroit to give J.D. Drew a 12 year-$234 million deal, despite the Tigers being the only team interested in Drew.  The Tribe needs to get some young, inexpensive talent mixed in with their roster.  Even though none of these guys are paid more than they produce, the cumulative effect of these contracts still pushes the Tribe's payroll into the upper levels of league.  

I do not favor acquiring Jim Thome to play DH.  Thome only played in 81 games for the Cubs last year, hitting .235/.388/.375 (the guy could post a good OBP from a wheelchair.  Unfortunately, with his back condition, he might have to).

GM Shapiro told ESPN:  "It is unprecedented to trade a cornerstone from a two-time world series champion.  But LA/Anaheim/Beverly Hills/Compton/Orange County made us an offer too good to refuse."

Really, I understand that everyone loves Hafner.  But I think after the Crisp for Marte, last year's All-Star starter at 3B, and Westbrook for Gomes deals, and getting 14 wins out of a 315 pound David Wells for the league minimum, everyone has to finally give Shapiro the benefit of the doubt.  

0 recs  |  Comment 24 comments

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Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
I too am in support of this trade.  It's just too good an opportunity to pass up to ensure our long term future.

by drerikbrady on Feb 7, 2006 1:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Yea lets go for broke. Oops I mean huge cash flow with out paying a dime to any real major league talent. That way we can build a reputation as being a Red Sox, Yankees, Angels and who ever else wants to spend money farm team. That way we can take on the risk of prospect develop them into star and then  trade them away for more risks. Sounds like a genius plan why didn't I think of this before. Humm I don't know maybe I think that the fans deserve more than that.

by tribeinne on Feb 7, 2006 1:48 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
hey, it worked for the Kansas City Athletics in the '50s....

by Ryan on Feb 7, 2006 6:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Curb your enthusiasm...
Hold on just a minute... that hot AAA OF played half his games in Salt Lake - huge hitters park... and that AA arm might strike out over a hitter per inning, but he'll give out a free pass every other one... NO DEAL!

by concuss on Feb 7, 2006 2:09 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Curb your enthusiasm...
See, I knew the intelligent and attractive readers of this site would realize that the PCL inflates slugging numbers.  That's why I mentioned his BB/K numbers.  Those translate well in any ballpark.

The Tribe puts the AA arm into the Akron rotation, even though he is projected as a back ofthe bullpen guy.

by Buzz on Feb 8, 2006 10:29 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Now that LeBron is in New York and the last 4 first-round Browns picks have had career-ending knee injuries, I suppose a move like this should enable the Tribe to stay on the front page of the Plain Beacon Dealer Journal for the foreseeable future.

Also, can we please finally get Blake out of RF?  

by mkwng on Feb 7, 2006 2:22 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Good one.  At least the Browns have hope, as new coach Joe Paterno decides that his career will not be complete without taking one shot at the NFL.  

But Blake is still a gamer.  You don't need a crystal ball to see that.

by Buzz on Feb 8, 2006 10:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Please please please not even as a joke.  Lebron leaving Cleveland is far too painful to think about.  

Basketball is the only sport where paying $30m a year for one player, if that player is an all-time great (MJ, Shaq, Duncan), actually improves your chances for a championship.

by nilla on Feb 8, 2006 10:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Brian Windhorst (who I think is turning into one of the better Cleveland-area sportswriters) has a great article on espn.com about how Gilbert and Ferry are trying to do everything they can to keep King James:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?id=2325684

by mkwng on Feb 10, 2006 11:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
I thought the whole point of this trade was to get Blake out of RF, where he's been starting for the past five years.  I don't think I can take one more offseason of the front office saying "Casey just needs to relax."  If he couldn't relax under Wedge, how's he going to hit under Bradley?

by Jay on Feb 8, 2006 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Awesome post I agree. I do believe one, two and maybe even three of our young studs will take below market deals in 2007/2008 (As long as we stay in contention, which voila, these deals continue to do). But to think we can keep all of your young stud players/prospects is just plain ludicrous. And to tell you the truth, there is one main reason for this.

No its not the small/medium market bias. No its not that Dolan/new owner are tightwads. No its not the scehming agents like Boras. No it isnt because Boston and New York can always outspend us (close to true tho). The reason for that we will never be able to keep these players is because the Player's Union would not let it happen. The PU will let a few guys slide by and take below market deals, but the premium stars MUST take top $$ when they become free agents to fill their union coffers. The prime example of this was the Thome deal. He would have been happy to take the 5 year deal with the Tribe, but since Philly offered the 6th year at $20 mil, they told him he had to take it (unless we matched it).

It is a business, and that's the way it goes.

Finally in reference to all the die hards who want Dolan/any owner to always resign popular players to top $$ at extra years, it's not gonna happen when it forces him to not make a profit. I know the prevailing citizen loves to live in debt (credit cards/mortages/etc.), but these "rich owners" got were they are by being business savvy, not crazy with their money. I can think of only one guy who'd lose money hand over fist and maybe not care, and that's Bill Gates, and I don't see him moving to the Midwest anytime soon.

by talonk on Feb 7, 2006 3:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
The union applies social pressure but has no authority over the contracts players sign.  The decisions rest entirely with the player.  No one player's contract makes much of a dent in the union budget in any event.

I assume any of these guys will be gone once they are eligible for free agency.  Realistically, to get high value from young players, we need to lock them up before they hit arbitration.  And if we want to keep a player beyond his first free agent eligibility -- for a modest discount -- then we need to extend his contract more than a year ahead of time -- as we did with Thome (in 1997) and Sabathia (in 2005).

I can't think of any multi-year contract extensions we've done in a player's walk year.

by Jay on Feb 7, 2006 7:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Hilarious.  I take it Sowers washed out?

by Jay on Feb 7, 2006 3:56 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
I thought that Sowers wound up being Anna Benson's 4th husband and would up getting traded to the Mets...

by drerikbrady on Feb 8, 2006 10:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Just can't help myself ... here's the technical corrections:

  1. Probably sooner than 2009.

  2. Three years until TopOFprospect is arbitration eligible, not two.  Usually I'd say four years, but apparently this guy hits like Pujols and can't be kept out of the big leagues one more day.

  3. Sabathia is already gone by this point.  He got a 10-year, $252 million deal from Texas a year ago and had a career-ending groin injury last May.  The insurance company and Krispy Kreme fight the case out in the courts clear into 2018.

  4. Miller and Bay won't be free agents until after 2013.  Good thing, too, because everyone else is out the door, as you point out, except for Indian-for-life Jhonny Peralta.

  5. I'm pretty sure that X = Brandon Phillips, getting $3.8 million in first-year arbitration despite horrible numbers.

by Jay on Feb 7, 2006 6:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Most surprising part of this off-season was Wedge retiring, and Milton Bradley taking over as manager. A lot of people are calling him "the next Billy Martin."

Should be a fun year.

by rden on Feb 8, 2006 10:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
AHAHAHAHA... oh man... funny...  
"What the hell are ya doin' son, runnin' out the ground ball???  Its not about hustlin, it's about lookin good out there... and you look like those boys took and are out there playin keep away!"

ahhh... funny thread...

by concuss on Feb 8, 2006 7:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
Boy, that is some prospect. In 60AB, he hit .200 without managing one single.

by oxforddave on Feb 8, 2006 1:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
He has great speed, so I think he legged out a double or two on what would normally be routine singles.  Sickles mentioned that he hustles and has great "intangibles" whatever those are.

by Buzz on Feb 9, 2006 9:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
So who does everybody see coming out of the NL?  I really like the Havana Marlins this year.  

by mkwng on Feb 9, 2006 10:28 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
I'm partial to the Las Vegas Whales myself. They just can't lose!

by Ryan on Feb 9, 2006 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
the Portland Ganjas are gonna smoke out the opposition!

by concuss on Feb 9, 2006 12:23 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Reserving a trade topic for 2009
The following players from the 2000 roster are the only players still in the Bigs in 2005. They were:

S. Alomar
Thome
Vizquel
Sexson
Lofton
M. Ramirez
Branyan
E. Diaz
J Cruz
D. Roberts
J. MacDonald
B. Colon
Brower
Spier
Karsay
Wright

These sixteen players were paid a little over $77 million in 2005. If the remaining nine spots were filled with players being paid only the MLB minimum that is a $80 million payroll for an old team with a few stars, no future and probably no more than a .500 team.

Note that only Karsay who recently signed a Minor League deal is now with the Tribe. Some of these players were free agents and many others were traded in anticipation of their becoming free agents. Some of the best young players on the 2005 Tribe and in all of Baseball were acquired in those trades.

by Jennifer Marie on Feb 17, 2006 4:29 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

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