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AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians

Here's the Indians' portion of the rountable. A big thank you goes out to Marc Normandin of Beyond the Box Score for setting this up and serving as moderator.

Marc Normandin of Beyond the Box Score: According to many statistical measures, the Cleveland Indians were actually the best regular season team in the league last season. Can their actual record reflect that sort of statement in 2006?

Ryan of Let's Go Tribe: Sure, they could win 95 games this season. But "could" and "will" are two separate entities. The Indians' rotation and starting lineup was very healthy last season, and their bullpen, even with a couple of injuries, was one of the best in the AL. They still have the talent in place to be that good again, but a lot of things have to go their way in order for them to have the best record in the AL.

The Cheat of South Side Sox: I heard the Indians are raising the AL Pythagorean Championship banner at the home opener this year. ;-) - Offensively, the Indians could be even better in `06, but I wouldn't bet on their pitching being anywhere near what it was in `05. To answer your question, I don't think the Indians will be raising any AL Pythorean banners in `07, but that won't prevent them from making another run at the playoffs.

Jay of Let's Go Tribe: Now see, that's just poor sportsmanship, Cheat. Can't you just sit back beatifically, knowing that all the stats in world don't change the fact that the White Sox won more games in the regular season, and got every last job done in the postseason? Do you really have to rub our faces in it? I think you should remember that the way you, as a White Sox fan, deal with your championship has a massive effect on the public's perception of White Sox fans. Especially since there are only eleven of you.

The Indians were one of the very best teams in baseball by any measure last season. That's all we have to hang our hat on, and it is painful - just as it was in 2000. Counterbalancing that, we have a few crap Division championships from the late-90's when we were the only halfway-decent team. The likelihood is that in 2006, the Indians will once again be one of the very best teams in baseball. The likelihood is that in 2006, as in almost every season, every team with 93 wins (or a 150-run differential) will make the playoffs. But there's no guarantees. That's what we have to live with.

Jesse of Twinkietown: The Indians came on so very strong the last couple months of the season in 2005, it's difficult for me to see them taking too much of a step back, if they take one at all. But that's one of the problems in sports-everyone has a short memory. If a team was strong in an area, even for just one season, we expect that trend to continue. With Cleveland, even though I don't quite have the same faith in their starting rotation this year as I did last, they still should be a force to be reckoned with, and they'll be one of three teams jockeying for the AL Central title in 2006 with Chicago and Minnesota.

Marc: What transactions will work out the best for Cleveland in 2006? The worst?

Jesse of Twinkietown: There are two acquisitions I see as beneficial to the Indians organization. One is Andy Marte who, if he sees any time at all, will have every chance to steal the everyday job at third base. The sooner the Indians get him into the lineup, the better that offense will be. Second is Paul Byrd. While his pick up doesn't balance the loss of Kevin Millwood, he's going to bring something stable to that rotation. Sabathia will be solid, Lee may have another good year, and Westbrook may surprise some, but Johnson is lucky to still find himself in anyone's rotation (his WHIP ratio is a killer). Byrd is a nice bridge between the front of the rotation and the back.

Ryan: I'd say the signing of Paul Byrd will help the most in 2006. It's doubtful that he can replace Kevin Millwood's production, but I don't know if Kevin Millwood v. 2006 could have done that. If Byrd is healthy, he's a good pitcher, and he was a (relative) bargain compared to other free agents. There aren't any moves the Indians made that really stand out as horrible, but if I had to choose the worst move of the bunch, it would be the Jason Johnson signing. Yeah, he just has to replace Scott Elarton in the rotation, but I think the signing was unnecessary. Innings eaters have some value, but the Indians could have gone with Jeremy Sowers and been much better off, results-wise and money-wise.

Down the road, the Coco Crisp deal will probably be looked at as the best move of the offseason, but I don't think we'll see much of Andy Marte in 2006.

The Cheat: In the long run, the Marte deal could end up being a huge steal. I don't know how it's going to play out for this season, however.

Jason Johnson, who never has been particularly good at anything other than eating innings, is easily the Tribe's worst move of the off-season.

Marc: Andy Marte has been traded by two organizations; once for Edgar Renteria, and another time as part of a larger deal for Crisp. What is his future outlook, as far as Indians debut, securing of a job, statistical line, etc. look like in your mind?

Jesse of Twinkietown: I don't know enough about the way Cleveland's management works to predict when Marte will get his shot as the everyday hot-corner pencil-in. The note should also be made that his involvement in these recent transactions shouldn't be viewed as a question mark on his ability, but rather a stressed point on his potential. He was a pivotal piece of two trades where there was a proven performer involved. Other teams wanted a player, and Marte was the cost of admission. To me that's a compliment.

My prediction for 2006 is that Marte secures 3B by July. He won't have a great line, but I could see .263/.330/.460/.790. He may not be a Hall of Fame player, but he'll have a nice career.

Ryan: Aaron Boone will probably be the biggest indicator for when Andy Marte gets the call. Boone was actually half-way decent (.276/.336/.394) after the All-Star Break, which makes sense given he missed an entire season due to a knee injury. If Marte is torching the International League, there might be some pressure to deal in June or July, but judging from the comments by the Indians' brain trust, they'd like to see Marte get most of his at-bats with Buffalo this season. If Boone does struggle again, then all bets are off. If Marte does get the call, I think a .260/.340/.430 line is within reason.

I don't see being traded twice in an offseason to be a mark against Marte. The insinuations of an elbow injury appear to be false, and in both cases the organization that dealt him had more established players in front of him and a large hole elsewhere to fill.

Will of Royals Review: Ryan, .276/.336/.394 is decent? Although maybe it is at this point. Short of Arod, third base is quickly becoming part of this weird melange blending with SS, which is where the great atheletes go. It used to be the more skilled brother of 1st base. All this aside, Boone can probably perform better. Either him or C. Blake need to.

Marc: The average Equivalent Average (EqA) for third base in 2005 was .265 (where .260 is league average for all hitters). At shortstop, the figure was .256...that is the lowest of any position, with CF and 2B tying for second least offensive at .261

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Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Although, it looks like Boone is having a rough spring.  Of course, it won't change anything unless his bad play continues for a few months.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/recap?gid=260311130

by FranklinScott on Mar 11, 2006 6:51 PM EST reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
If memory serves, Boone had a pretty nice Spring Training in 2005. I don't put that much stock in spring numbers. The more important thing from my view is if the player is healthy and how his range is in field.

by Ryan on Mar 11, 2006 7:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Agreed.  And in any case, the Indians are on mlb tv today and Boone has hit two home runs and has made two nice defensive plays.

by FranklinScott on Mar 13, 2006 2:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Boone's "bad play' did not last too long, at least on the hitting side. The MLB site shows his average at .500 (9 hits in 18 AB).

Perhaps someone better than me in statistics can explain why Boone only has a .500 OBP on MBL, since they also show that he has one BB.

It's still early in spring training, but until Boon's 3-hit day yesterday, I was about to post that the young/prospects were beating the old/veterans at each of that Indian's weakest postions.

Now Boone (.500/.500???.944) is ahead of Marte (.421.455/.789). Garko (.269/.424/.346), after going 0 for 3 yesterday, is slightly ahead of Broussard (.240/.269/.320). DuBois (.409/.536/.818) is ahead of Blake (.280/.379/.440) and Michaels (.263/.364/.368), although DuBois 8 Ks in 22 AB shows his K problem is still there (as does Snyder's 6 Ks in only 18 AB).

Again, it's early and only spring training, but a least we have some numbers to have fun with.

by kov on Mar 14, 2006 8:19 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Sac flys aren't counted as part of batting average, but they are for OBP.

avg = H / AB

obp = H + BB + HBP / AB + BB + HBP + SF

Sac bunts aren't counted against you; they are the only plate appearances not considered in OBP.

by Jay on Mar 14, 2006 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Thanks Jay. I guess I'll continue to learn something all the time.

But doesn't that seem punitive to count a SF against the player? To me it's often more valuable than a sac bunt, BB  or HBP because it usually means that the player drove home a run.

So, in a close game with less than two outs and a runner on third, a SF reduces the player's OBP. In effect, the SF counts the same as if he struck out.

by kov on Mar 14, 2006 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
I think the rationale is that with a bunt, you're intentionally giving yourself up to advance the runner.  With a sac fly, you're trying to hit the ball hard and in the air.  You've got a decent chance of hitting a gapper or homer or single or ...  In other words, you're not intentionally making an out, just trying to make sure that if you make an out, it's not a groundout or K.

by mickeyf on Mar 14, 2006 3:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Thanks Mickey, but that leads me down another path.

If a player cannot get out of the way of a pitch, he gets credit for a HBP which increases his OBP, even though he did not (normally) intentionally try to get hit.

On the other hand, if he trys to hit a SF to help his team score a run, he reduces his OBP.

Is it just me or does anyone else think that a SF should not count against a player's statistics any more than a HBP should help a player's statistics? An SF results in a run, a HBP results in a sore hip (or other body part :-)

by kov on Mar 14, 2006 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
An SF results in a run, a HBP results in a sore hip (or other body part :-)

Kidding aside, a SF may result in a run and a hbp may result in a bruised hip, but that's not really what matters with obp. With a sac fly, an out is made, whereas with a hit by pitch, an out is not made, which is exactly what obp is tracking. Besides, with an sf the hitter is credited with an RBI (yippee!). As to HBPs, there are some players who purposely don't get out of the way. For them, an hbp is a repeatable skill - Craig Biggio comes to mind.

by dctribefan on Mar 14, 2006 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
In fact, someone leaned into a Sowers pitch today.

by dgcambridge on Mar 14, 2006 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
In fact, someone leaned into a Sowers pitch today.

In fact, though the rule is rarely called, an umpire can refuse to allow the HBP if he feels that the player did not make at least a cursory attempt to get out of the way of the pitch.  The rule clearly states that a player leaning in to get hit is not to be awarded first base.

by mickeyf on Mar 15, 2006 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
That's right.  And they seemed to be calling it more often last season, though I have no numbers on that.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2006 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Not to drag this out, but .....

"With a sac fly, an out is made, whereas with a hit by pitch, an out is not made, which is exactly what obp is tracking."

If making an out is exactly what OBP is tracking, why does a sac bunt not count against the player but a sac fly does? (by the way, neither type of sac gets the player on base, which is what I would think OBP should track - by definition).

by kov on Mar 15, 2006 8:17 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Okay, I'll bite.  First of all, we do not have the authority to re-define OBP, so let's remember that this is all just devil's advocate arguments anyway.  That said, I can see the distinction.

The sac bunt generally is a manager's judgment call as much as it is the player's performance.  Keep in mind that if the sac bunt fails, the player still gets the out, and if he works a bunt single out of it as Vizquel often did, he still gets the single.  So it's only wiped out if it becomes an actual sacrifice.

The sac fly is not a manager's call, there is just an understanding that everyone knows that it's the hitter's job to get that ball out of the infield.  That said, take a look at the changes in run expectation (using 2005 stats) for sac flys:

none out, 3B:  1.51 to 0.52
none out, 1B-3B:  1.82 to 0.55
none out, 2B-3B:  2.04 to 0.98
none out, loaded:  2.31 to 1.41

1 out, 3B:  0.98 to 0.11
1 out, 1B-3B:  1.18 to 0.24
1 out, 2B-3B:  1.41 to 0.37
1 out, loaded:  1.53 to 0.49

To keep things simple, these numbers assume that runners on 2B advance on a sac fly but runners on 1B do not.  Try not to nitpick, I'm just trying to show the big picture here.

And the big picture is, on a sac fly, the run scores, and the run expectation also goes down by about one run, or anywhere from 0.87 to 1.27.  Which is another way of saying, basically, the sac fly isn't really helping much.

Of course in a high-leverage situation, like a walk-off, that "nothing" is a whole lot of something.  But I think you would find that ninth-innning sac flys in one-run games are actually pretty rare.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2006 11:09 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
But I think you would find that ninth-innning sac flys in one-run games are actually pretty rare.

Except in World Series Game Sevens.

Sorry, I couldn't help it.

by Ryan on Mar 15, 2006 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Let's create a choice. Would you rather have:

  1. A player who can move runners from 1B to 2B with  sac bunts, where they may score, or

  2. A player who can hit SFs and the runners do score.

I'll take the latter.

by kov on Mar 15, 2006 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Do I also get to pick a manager who will only do #1 when it makes some small degree of sense?

I'll take #1 only because those players actually seem to exist.  Ideally, I'd take #2.

I don't remember the last time I saw an Indians hitter who seemed to have a developed ability to do #2 more or less whenever it was called for.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2006 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
You know something, screw that.  I'll take a guy who knows how to bang doubles into the gap, which would score either runner no matter how many outs.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2006 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Good answer Jay.

I just hate to see guys strike out when there's a runner on third with less than two outs.

I do believe that some players adjust their hitting approach in that situation so that they can drive home the run, just like the better hitters adjust their hitting approach when they have two strikes.

I can't prove it statistically (unless I had a lot of spare time), but I cringe when some high-K guys come to the plate with a runner on third and less than two outs, but I have more confidence that the run will come home with guys who have similar high-K history but are better RBI guys.

by kov on Mar 16, 2006 4:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
I think what we're seeing is a shortcoming of the economic system.   Until bat-control skills and situational hitting get highly compensated in free agency, and consequently in arbitration, guys like that are going to continue to be scarce.  Damned shame, too, because as much as we sometimes deride situational stuff, it's a great feeling when you need a little of that and just the right guy is stepping to the plate.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2006 7:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
I agree, except a few big RBI guys get paid a lot and know how to get a run home, even if it is a sac fly or a ground ball to 2B. They don't always try to hit a HR with a critical runner on 3B with less than two outs.

by kov on Mar 18, 2006 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Wow, apparently our readers are not very impressed with (or interested in) our fellow bloggers' opinions of the Indians.  FYI, readers of the Twins and White Sox blogs were plenty annoyed with my opinions of their teams.  Which is fine.

by Jay on Mar 12, 2006 7:54 PM EST reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
These roundtables are interesting.  I wish it had about twice the length though; right when things started to get spirited, it comes to a quick halt.  

I don't know how much time commitment it is on your guys' end to produce this, probably substantial.  

I don't think there's much to say about our the other folks' comments on our squad, but Ryan/Jay's input on the other teams (and subsequent fan reactions) has been quite amusing.  

by cheech99 on Mar 12, 2006 10:39 PM EST reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
I did go over to South Side Sox and saw that Jay's quip to The Cheat forced the dude to pull it out to the front page and deride the Tribe even more, making him look even worse in the process.

World Series Champs, and we're still insecure as hell!  

by cheech99 on Mar 12, 2006 10:43 PM EST reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
Yeah, he really should not be calling attention to that.  And his big retort was to say that we didn't have many sellouts last season ... the White Sox were contenders right out of the gate, while the Indians didn't get in it until late August ... and Chicago metro has FOUR TIMES the population of Cleveland metro ... and yet their attendance was all of 15 percent better, and nobody will be surprised if the two teams have about the same attendance in 2006.  Cheat's got nothing to brag about in this area, and I'm surprised he doesn't know it.

I'd like to think that when we win our championship (this year of course), I'll exhibit a little more generosity towards other teams' fans.  I'm not sure that I will, but I'd like to think it.

by Jay on Mar 12, 2006 11:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
I'll admit, I'm not a huge fan of this format, because it ends up degrading into sniping and name-calling. But it is somewhat helpful in that you get an idea of what other bloggers think.

by Ryan on Mar 13, 2006 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: AL Central Rountable: Cleveland Indians
I actually have had a nice time over on the Sox site.  Cheat basically admits that he's defensive about the run differential thing.  Meanwhile, I'm like, can we trade the run differential for the ring?  I think it's a tremendous psychological achievement for a fan to remain defensive after 99 wins and a completely ball-stomping postseason run.

I look at it like 1995 vs. 1997.  If we win in 1995, we get to prance around forever spouting nonsense like, "Perhaps the greatest team of all time."  If we win in 1997, we don't get to say any of that ... but who cares?  It still would have been a phenomenal run, and that's what Chicago had.  What the hell, it's not like they were the Padres.

Re: the format, I actually disagree.  I think there was a little smack-talking (mostly by me) but it was done in a friendly way.  I think had we done more back-and-forth, more of a forum type situation, we'd have ended up with a richer and more interesting piece of group analysis for all of our readers.  But it was a first-time experiment, and a pretty good first try.

by Jay on Mar 13, 2006 6:28 PM EST up reply actions  

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