Need to vent frustration after KC series

As long as the Indians feel this way, nothing will change:

As for the triple and two homers, Mota said, "They were lucky, lucky the whole series."

If it's any consolation, I'm sure the whole team and front office are just as upset as you are.  I can only imagine how I would feel if I was Byrd coming onto a new team - a contender no less - and letting the team and fans down.

But I'm with you, I'm tired of this crap, too.  I wish there was an easy, guarenteed fix, but there isn't.

Hello Travis17, welcome to LetsGoTribe.com - come back often! :-)

woodsmeister - no offense to Mota, but I seen the same pitches he threw to Guiel and Berroa, and to me, those were meatballs down the middle of the plate.  Neither guy is a power-hitter, yet they somehow got lucky against a reliever with good stuff?  No, I think his command is still shaky like it has been all year.

In other words, he needs to stop making excuses and find it.  If necessary, the Indians should put him on the DL, get the extra player from Boston, and get Mota on a rehab assignment to Buffalo to figure out exactly why his command has been so sub-par.

Chances are though, Boston would probably complain, and without a legitimate medical excuse, he probably couldn't be shipped to the Minors anyway.  So, that idea is probably out the window.  Nevertheless, something is wrong with Mota's command and they need to find a way to get him back to his dominant Dodgers days - if someone hits a HR off of him when he's throwing like that, then you could maybe attribute it to luck, but it's not luck the way his command is right now.

Travis17 - I know, it's frustrating.  However, patience is the best way for the Indians to win a WS.  As LeftyCatcher mentioned, there are no quick fixes for the Indians due to the lack of a salary cap.  Even with STO, the Indians will not be able to outspend the Yankees, Mets, and Red Sox for the premium free agents.  Therefore, we need to develop our own quality talent and hold onto them for several years while we can and have several of them come up together, develop, and produce at the ML level.  That is Cleveland's best, and arguably, only way to win a WS.

Look at the D'Rays - when they first came into existence in 1998, they planned on building through the draft, stocking up through their Minor League system, and contend.  Why haven't they to this point?

Mostly because they switched midstream in Year 2, deciding to spend (and really, overspend) on big-name free agents to bring fans to the seats and accelerate their progress more quickly.  Guess what?  It didn't work and set them back for several years - that's a major reason why they still haven't fielded a .500 team and are only starting to approach that mark now.  Free agent signings like McGriff, (Greg) Vaughn, Canseco, and Castilla threw back their plan to compete through the farm system, which is really the only way they can compete for a WS as well.

It's not easy to remain patient, but for the most part, Shapiro has been right.  Granted, his signings of guys like Boone, Johnson, and Graves are highly debatable, but he has restocked the farm system with quality talent in a very short time span.  Look at Pittsburgh, Detroit, and Cincinnati - those cities have endured losing season after losing season; I bet those organizations would have traded places with the Indians in a heartbeat, even if they didn't win a WS during that span.

Regarding teams like the Angels and the Marlins, with Cleveland's sports history, the fans would probably take 10 years of losing after they won 1 World Series.  However, the organization is not willing to go that route because they want to compete for several WS in a row, and probably feel they will win at least one if they do that.  

Trying to win a WS with one shot is not easy to do - the Marlins have done it twice, but usually, it's the quality teams that are good year after year that have the best chance of reaching and winning the WS, not the ones that try to bulk up for one year.  They usually fail, have to dismantle, and usually endure several losing seasons to try to recover for another shot.

Again, like I've mentioned before, this is not the best team the Indians will field or the team that will give the Indians the best shot to win a WS.  Do you really think guys like Boone and Michaels will be in the starting lineup, or even here?  Michaels may be on the bench at best, but Boone likely will be gone by then (within the next year at the latest.)

Granted, not all prospects develop (like Brandon Phillips,) but many of the Indians' prospects have (like Sizemore, Lee, Martinez, Sabathia, etc.)

No offense, but the Indians have had a better track record of developing prospects than some organizations, like KC, so just because a prospect or two doesn't develop doesn't mean they all won't develop.  That's the advantage of having a deep system like the Indians - the more worthwhile prospects you have, the more worthwhile MLers you will develop because, while not all of them develop, if your organization is a decent to good organization, some of those prospects will turn into capable and good MLers.

Therefore, I think Shapiro's plan is the right one; 2006 is just a bump in the road, one Shapiro and company did not expect, certainly not a bump this big.  But scrapping the entire plan would absolutely be the wrong move in my opinion because we have come too far to throw it all away now.  

Look at the D'Rays - I bet they wished they would have stayed with the build-up plan in Year 2, rather than spend on McGriff, Canseco, Vaughn, and Castilla.  They might have been to the playoffs already or at the very least, challenging for a playoff spot this year.  It will probably take another year or two before they can challenge for a Wild Card.  And remember, they've been in existence since 1998 (and their farm system has actually been in existence since 1997.)  That's nearly 10 years with not even a .500 record; the Indians have done far better than that by sticking to the plan Shapiro has laid out, despite possibly a setback in 2006.

I know it's frustrating to see this team struggle like they are right now, but it's quite likely that there are better times ahead for this team in the very near future due to the quality and depth of the farm system.  As loyal fans, we need to be patient enough to allow that progress to happen, not hoping that we blow up the plan and try to overspend for one decent shot to win a WS and then not compete for a playoff spot for 5-10 years.  

Look at the Blue Jays - the Ryan signing so far looks good, but the Burnett signing certainly doesn't and there has to be concern with his elbow - I'm not sure the Blue Jays could get insurance on him because they signed him for 5 years; usually, insurance is limited to 3-year contracts as far as I know.  

Therefore, if Burnett turns out to be a total bust based on health (which could be possible with his injury history,) the Blue Jays most likely have to eat that contract, and for a middle-market team like the Indians, that could be very disastrous for them in their bid to outmanuever the Yankees and Red Sox for an AL East playoff spot, especially when those two teams can spend significantly more than the Blue Jays.

So, overall, I think Shapiro is on the right track; this is just a sizable bump in the road, but once we get past this bump, I think the near future is still very bright for the Indians, regardless of what happens in 2006.  Plus, it's likely that there will be changes coming soon if this team does not pick up its play over this next week at home, so I wouldn't count this season out yet.

Just my 5 cents. :-)

Take care and keep the "faith"!

Indiansfan - I like your insight and have read similar thoughts and comments over the past few years when reading papers, Internet, etc...  Overall I do like what they are doing, and I understand the small market philosophy that they have adopted to compete with the heavyweights.  I agree that many teams in a similar financial situation are envious of the Indians to the point that they have tried a similar plan and failed.  But when I get upset about the lack of spending, it's not the front line free agents - ie McGriff, Canseco, etc..., that I'm looking for. I'm just looking for significant, low-level signings that fill important needs.  Two years ago the Indians had one of the worst bullpens in baseball, running out names like Jose Jimenez, Scott Stewart, Chad Durbin and Jack Cressend, just to name a few.  One year later, the bullpen was one of the best in the league and we had a contender up to the final week.  So why did Shapiro mess around with such a volatile area when it was one of our strengths? Had they been willing to spend enough to re-sign Howry, then walked away from the Marte trade, we wouldn't be looking at re-shuffling the bullpen 35 days into the saeson, and probably would be right on the White Sox heels.

Thanks for the response, and hopefully we can look back at this someday as a minor bump in the road.  

Go Tribe!

Hello Travis17,

Thank you for the support - I greatly appreciate it! :-)

I think those situations from 2004 and 2005 are part of what makes being the GM of a small to mid-market team so much more challenging than being the GM of a large-market team - trying to find those significant, low-level signings because a small to mid-market budget has to incorporate those significant, low-level signings in order to compete for a playoff spot and a WS championship.

As you pointed out, the ones Shapiro found for the 2006 bullpen did not work out too well, whereas the 2005 signings worked out very well (especially Howry.)

That's part of the challenge - knowing which low-level signings will turn out and which ones won't.  Guys like Belliard and Howry worked out, guys like Boone and Graves didn't.  Unfortunately, I don't think any GM, no matter how good he is, can accurately predict which low-level signings will work and which ones won't.  

It's a guessing game based on scouting reports, psychological profiles (to weed out guys who won't fit in the clubhouse, like Milton Bradley, etc.,) and the individual skills of the players you are considering.  Sometimes the signings work out and sometimes they don't.

They worked out pretty well in 2005, but not in 2004 or so far in 2006.

Another challenge for a small to mid-market club is balancing the success of the present team versus future teams, since a small to mid-market team gearing up for one shot can lead to several years of futility afterwards, which the fans won't stand for, especially if the team fails to win the WS in that one year they go for it.

Shapiro seen a chance to really upgrade the 3B position, one of the few glaring weaknesses in the Indians' farm system, and decided that fortifying that position could make the Indians that much better in the coming years.  He knew Aaron Boone was not the long-term answer (thank goodness! :-)

There's debate over whether Kevin Kouzmanoff (currently at AA Akron) could have been the long-term 3B.  Most think of him like a Casey Blake-type - solid, but not spectacular.  I think though the real reason that Shapiro decided to acquire Marte is because Kouzmanoff has had back problems over the last year or two, and it really affected him last year.

Due to the situation with Michael Aubrey and his chronic back problems, the Indians didn't want to take the chance that Kouzmanoff could have similar problems of staying healthy and being productive.  Plus, Pat Osborn looks to be more of a utility type, based on his bat.  Matt Whitney does not factor much into the picture at this point because of the basketball injury a few years ago - it's knocked him down and he's still trying to get some momentum at High-A Kinston, where he is struggling with a high K rate.

So, essentially, the Indians didn't have much beyond Kouzmanoff at 3B in the system, and Kouzmanoff had the back problems last year, so they felt they needed to upgrade that position with, what most considered a premium talent.  

Marte, ironically, is not hitting for any power at AAA Buffalo and has struggled at Buffalo for the last two weeks (though in his defense, virtually everyone outside of Ben Francisco has struggled at Buffalo lately, including Garko and Gutierrez - I honestly don't know why - reminds me a bit of the early 2005 Indians' offensive struggles, though Buffalo did start well offensively this year and did score 7 runs last night - maybe that will get them going.)

So, Shapiro felt that he had to upgrade 3B - he had no idea Kouzmanoff would stay healthy and hit over .400 at AA, nor that Marte would struggle at Buffalo in the early going.  He probably feels that the Marte trade was still a good one - having Kouzmanoff will either be considered a nice back-up 3B option to Marte if Marte happens to fail (which hopefully he won't,) could help the Indians fill another position, maybe 2B (presuming Kouzmanoff could move there like they had proposed with Casey Blake a few years ago,) or Kouzmanoff might be a very valuable trading chip.

Regarding our bullpen this year, essentially the worst scenario happened.  Shapiro probably felt that Howry would not have as good of a year this year compared to last year and did not want to pay $4 million for a setup man - I doubt Hart would have either - I think both would pay a closer that amount of money, but not a setup guy or middle relief.

Last I heard, Howry was doing well for the Cubs, though I haven't looked up his stats recently, so that made Shapiro's choice look worse than it might have been.  That, and of course, our bullpen struggles make that choice appear worse than what he projected it would be.

On the other hand, Arthur Rhodes has not done all that well for Philadelphia from what I've heard - he's done okay, but really, not that much better than our relievers.  The Indians probably felt that with the personal problems Rhodes had last year (don't know if they were ironed out or not in the offseason) and with his ineffectiveness against lefties, the Indians probably felt that Rhodes was expendable.

I still think Rhodes was a better left-handed option than Sauerbeck, who really hasn't been good since his return from TJ surgery in 2004.  He actually pitched better for that month or so he returned in 2004 than he did in 2005 or 2006 in my opinion.  In 2005, he mostly had trouble throwing strikes.  In 2006, he's had trouble throwing strikes and giving up hard hits, such as homeruns.

Again, I think the small to mid-market budget came into play this year, as I don't think STO really boosted up the payroll for this year - I think that will happen in future years, especially if STO is as successful as many think it will be.  That likely influenced Shapiro's decision not to resign Howry.  Of course, it looks really bad right now because many of the relievers have not been getting consistent outs, while a few of the relievers have been or are on the DL.

I agree, with a better bullpen, the Indians would probably be nipping at the White Sox's heels.  I think this is one of the few times in Shapiro's administration that many of his moves have backfired, which is frustrating since the Indians were expected to contend this year.

But I think Shapiro's way of reasoning was, we have good talent coming up through the system - why spend unnecessarily on and commit to guys who have been inconsistent throughout their careers (like Howry) when we have guys who project to be better and that cost less so that we can allocate those funds elsewhere (such as a significant trade in the middle of the year if we need to make one)?

Unfortunately, Shapiro's moves have backfired to this point, but he probably figured, even, if by chance, this would backfire on us in 2006, we still have the young talent that will enable us to compete in 2007 and beyond.  That was probably his worst-case scenario, which encouraged him to make the trade for Marte and the signings he did make.

Unfortunately, that worst-case scenario is what is happening at this point and why he is contemplating major changes in the bullpen and maybe even beyond the bullpen.

That's just my opinion on Shapiro's thinking; it may not be his thinking. :-)

Hopefully, Shapiro can make the needed adjustments to make the 2006 Indians a contender in the AL Central - I'm sure he'll try to do that, but he's not going to sacrifice the projected bright future to do it.

Just my 50 cents. :-)

Take care and keep the "faith"!