Vic's catching
I hate to say a bad word about Vic, as he is brilliant with the bat, but some serious work needs to be done with him behind the plate. And not just about the running game...I replayed Konerko's 1st inning shot from last night. Lee actually made an excellent pitch. But what I noticed was that Vic was positioned so far to the outside of the plate that a pitch which painted the outside corner was targeted to Vic's inside (left) knee (if you picture what I mean...normally that pitch would be backhanded, but he was lined up to catch it as if it was an inside pitch). I'm sorry, but if a catcher slides that far outside PRIOR to the pitch (bacause he can't do it while the pitch is on the way), he is essentially telling the batter (Konerko) where it's going to be thrown. I would think this puts the pitcher at a serious disadvantage, or at least takes away that (fraction of a) second of uncertainty on the batter's part.
I am certainly not the first to notice this. Why hasn't it been addressed?
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That's a good point!
That's an interesting and good point you make. I had not thought about that, though I do remember Victor was set up there on the outside corner. I don't know if Victor was just trying to emphasize to Lee to throw it toward the outside corner or what.
Personally, I thought Lee should have thrown it off the corner because both he and Victor should have known that Konerko will take the ball the opposite way. I thought Lee could have made a better pitch, but in reality, considering what you said, perhaps Victor's set-up location gave Konerko an idea of where the pitch would be and that's why he swung at it and crushed it. Obviously that was a big blow to us in that ballgame and was obviously Lee's down point of the night.
I agree that Victor's catching does need work; at first, I thought it was just his arm and the running game, but I'm starting to wonder if Victor really calls that good of a game. From the 2005 pitching staff's performances, you would think Victor would have a little something to do with that, but at times, Victor's catching skills do seem a bit rudimentary, for lack of a better term.
I don't know - I could see Victor moving to 1B in the future, but if that occurs, then what do you with Garko, Aubrey, Head, etc.? I don't think they all can move to the OF like Mulhern has already done, not with Gutierrez, Francisco, Cooper, Snyder, etc. also in the upper reaches of the farm system.
Could Victor move to 2B like Biggio did earlier in his career? I know Crowe is going to eventually be groomed for that position, but it will probably be a few years before Crowe is ready to contribute at the ML level as a 2nd baseman. Perhaps Victor could fill a hole there, though I don't think he has the best of range. He couldn't make it as a shortstop, so I doubt he could become a 2nd baseman either.
He obviously can't be the DH, not with Hafner here. So, what defensive position is best for Victor Martinez? Or do you rotate Hafner, Martinez, Garko, and Shoppach in the future between 1B, DH, and Catcher (not Hafner, of course)?
Just a thought and my 2 cents. :-)
Take care and have a great day!
by indiansfan on May 2, 2006 8:13 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: That's a good point!
Victor seems, to me, to be one of the slowest guys in the AL. I can't imagine him playing anywhere but C or 1B.
It's possible that if Vic played 1B, he'd be able to concentrate more on hitting, and he might be an elite hitting 1B. The mental load of catching might be even harder for a switch-hitting catcher, making it harder to stay sharp from both sides of the plate.
(Switching from C to 3B sure helped Brandon Inge's hitting. When he was catching, he was described as doing "less damage at the plate than Callista Flockhart.")
Since we've converted Garko from C to 1B, I have to ask: is Garko really such a bad defensive catcher? Could he do worse than 0-21 in throwing out base stealers?
by CaptainEasy on
May 2, 2006 9:31 PM EDT
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Re: That's a good point!
by Jay on
May 2, 2006 11:41 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
The bad thing is his overall defense. He had a -4 FRAA in 2005, and he's already at -3 FRAA in 2006. The problem, though, is that if you move him from behind the plate to 1B, DH, or wherever, he loses a lot of value. A 1B/DH who hits .305/.378/.475 is good, not great. A poor fielding catcher who puts up that line is worth more. Keep in mind that moving a catcher to first base means your first baseman's bat just turned into a .250/.300/.400 guy.
I assumed we'd use Shoppach at catcher and Vic at first base against lefties some of the time, but with Eduardo posting a .345/.375/.793 line against LHP, that's not happening any time soon, and that's just fine by me. As long as Vic and Eduardo are both hitting lefties, you have to keep them in the lineup, and Hafner isn't sitting against anybody.
I think we have to just live with Vic and his insane OPS behind the plate. Yes, he's a poor defender, but he's the best offensive catcher in the league, and it's really not even close. We'll just have to live with some subpar defense from a guy who's hitting like .680 since last year's All-Star break.
by Kos on May 2, 2006 8:41 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Vic's catching
I think they are just going to have to continue working with him. He seemed to have turned the corner a little bit last year concerning holding down the running game, but now the runners seem to have little hesitation to take off. And last night was just an awful display of baseball all around.
by DocNo on May 2, 2006 9:32 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Vic's catching
Not defending the 0% throw-out rate, but it seems there may be some bad luck as well. I really would like to see the pitchers help him out more.
Go C.C.! Keep 'em off the bases today!
by zigsmom on May 2, 2006 9:42 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Vic's catching
I am frustrated, however, because while Victor's bat is an effective weapon 3-5 times a game, his catching deficiencies (if any) theoretically affect every pitch.
The question is, does he have deficiencies and if so can they be corrected? Is he just suffering from an early season mental block that he will get over soon and begin throwing out his historical 20-25% of base stealers, and once he throws some out, the opposition will cut back on their steal attempts?
Also, why are we keeping Shoppach on the bench? Why not play him in Buffalo so we can see how good he is? Surely Tim Laker could sit on the bench as well as Kelly, with the added advantage that Laker can also pitch an inning in a hopelessly lost game (2.0 ip, 0.00 era).
My gut feeling is that Victor does not have the physical tools to be a major league catcher. If he can handle another position, he should be moved in the next year or so. For one thing, catchers should not catch more than 130 games a season. Wedge is not doing this and Victor (and the team) may suffer for it in the future. Sitting Victor for 30+ games means we lose his bat (though he's available for PH duties). Also catchers are prone to injuries that require them to miss games or, if they play, can affect their swing. We will get more out of Victor in the long run if he plays a different position. And yes, I understand all the arguments against moving him, but if he is a poor thrower, poor handler of pitchers, and makes frequent mental mistakes (like setting up too far outside) he is counteracting the value of his bat.
I hate to bash Victor. His bat and team leadership are awesome. I could see him chasing a .400 BA some season. I love the guy!
by LeftyCatcher on May 2, 2006 10:00 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Vic's catching
by DocNo on
May 2, 2006 10:14 AM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
I think first of all that it's obvious that it would have to be an offseason move, and it would have to be a full-time move. He would just have to become a second-baseman, period.
But I think it also doesn't really make sense unless you have a great catcher ready to step in -- and we don't. You don't do a move this radical unless it works as a long-term move -- i.e., you don't do it just to sign Bengie Molina for a couple of years. It's a huge decision.
Shoppach is a quality young player but not a premium one -- I doubt even if given a starting shot that he would emerge as "core player" caliber. Garko of course is not considered a serious option defensively (and both bat righthanded, so no cute platoons).
I think the likely drop in production out of the catcher spot probably can't be justified compared to what our other 2B options will be -- even if they're not great. But it is intriguing.
by Jay on May 2, 2006 11:16 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Vic's catching
Are we talking about the same Victor Martinez ?
by SpringTrainingFun on
May 2, 2006 11:57 AM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
by Jay on
May 2, 2006 12:38 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
There is just so much about this situation I don't know. Just how good are his catching tools? I know he has a catcher's attitude and that's important.
If we're lucky he'll overcome this (with the help of his pitchers) and we'll be bitching about another one of our starters soon.
by LeftyCatcher on
May 2, 2006 12:29 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
Seems to me that Victor starts out badly with the running game every year and eventually ends up with average numbers or close to it.
by Jay on
May 2, 2006 12:38 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
Anyway, after having watched the replay of Konerko's mash, I really thought that Vic was making wild semaphore gestures to Konerko that the pitch would be outside...he knew it, leaned into it and got it. And that should be corrected by the coaches.
by DocNo on
May 2, 2006 12:54 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
by rog on
May 2, 2006 3:17 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
by DocNo on
May 2, 2006 6:11 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
by Jay on
May 2, 2006 11:42 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
Note, this is all based on some of our OF/1B prospects panning out to be quality major leaguers (if they don't V-Mart could end up at 1B, but this is still a remote possibility).
Or the other possibility is that we trade V-Mart and keep Hafner. Either way, if both of them are putting up the numbers they have been, we should be able to get a king's ransom for either, say a #1/#2 SP, closer, or power hitting OF and maybe some prospects too..
Just my thoughts ....
Dean
by talonk on May 3, 2006 2:57 AM EDT 0 recs
Re: Vic's catching
I think vic's going to largely normalize over the next four months in terms of defense, and the rest of his career. he's never going to be pudge but I don't think he'll be quite as bad as piazza either. either way, I would think he's going to keep catching.
by afh4 on
May 3, 2006 9:52 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
The point which we always have to keep in mind with Vic, and I think Jay is emphasizing this, is that his value is so great behind the plate that we just have to put up with some warts. Offensively, he's the top catcher in the game, no questions about it. So you don't lose that advantage by making him just an above-average offensive player elsewhere (1B, DH).
by DocNo on
May 4, 2006 12:56 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
by Jay on
May 3, 2006 11:38 PM EDT
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Re: Vic's catching
by afh4 on
May 4, 2006 12:28 AM EDT
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