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The state of the Tribe

by Avindian on Jun 19, 2006 3:49 PM EDT Comment 29 comments

Are we really and truly doomed?

I've been paging through some of the stuff here, and man, you lot are depressing. If I were going to trade one person on this team, and only one, it would be...

Casey Blake.

Why? Classic "Buy low, sell high." If we trade him now, before his value plummets, we can sucker some team into coughing up some decent loot for him (maybe a B+ prospect or two). Boone isn't the problem, Boone playing EVERY DAY is the problem. I'd love him as a super utility guy. Send down Vazquez, call up Marte. Wickman has a pretty solid track record, and apart from his last couple of appearances, he's continued that this year. If we trade him, fine. I just don't want to see him run out of town on a rail. Johnson is a lost cause, and I agree with what most of you are saying, convert him to long relief (or send him to AAA) and call up Sowers. One could even theoretically put Guthrie in the rotation.

For me, the biggest problem is what to do with Victor? If you move him from behind the plate, he loses his value. He goes from Mike Piazza to, say, Tino Martinez without the glove. But at the same time, given how many former catchers are on the team, including both Wedge and Skinner, maybe he never will learn how to be effective. I don't know, I'm torn.

Will we make the playoffs? Sure, anything's possible. I wouldn't bet on it though. In the long run, though, I don't see the need to panic and go into a fire sale.

Poll

You've read my thoughts. Who would YOU trade, if you could only trade one player?

Casey Blake

8 votes

Aaron Boone

9 votes

Paul Byrd

4 votes

Jason Johnson

16 votes

Bob Wickman

18 votes

Ron Belliard

11 votes

66 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 29 comments

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Comments

Re: The state of the Tribe

Write-in vote: Ben Broussard.

Buy low, sell high, even moreso than Blake.

If I can only trade one guy, I want the most return possible without giving up an "untouchable" player. That's Broussard.

Garko is ready to step in and is cheaper, too.

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

haven't you said in other diaries that garko is not really ready for the bigs? or am i confused?

-Erik "Come on Dorn, get in front of the damn ball"

by drerikbrady on Jun 19, 2006 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

That was during a pennant race.

As I've stated elsewhere, there is a large distance between a player being "must promote" and "must not promote." In between, the team has some leeway. I think Garko, Marte and a half-dozen of our pitchers are in that grey area.

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Jay --

I hadn't thought of Broussard, but you're right. I'd still rather trade Blake, because Garko would presumably play every day, which would supplant Eduardo Perez as well. Hmm.. there's a thought. Trade Perez, bring up Garko to fill the other half of the platoon. I'd hate to tinker with one of the few positional strengths, but it does make sense, now that I think about it.

Tribe fan trapped in Illinois

by Avindian on Jun 19, 2006 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I understand your point but I actually kind of like Blake as a 4th OF. Plus he can play an emergency 3b (not really, really well but in a pinch). I also like Boone as a bench player. I think the bullpen and rotation are where the attention needs to be. Then 2B and a corner outfielder. With Boone and Blake as bench players we could jettison Vasquez and Hollandsworth. I could live with Belliard for one more year, I guess, but I think he's going to be looking for a multi-year deal and I can see his skills continuing to erode as times passes. Even though we have no ready replacement it's time to move Wickman for whatever we can get. I can see Johnson in the bullpen in Mota's place and I think Byrd will actually come around and be an acceptable back of the rotation guy.

by exileincincy on Jun 19, 2006 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I agree. Blake strikes me as a useful player to have on the squad because he can play all of the corner positions (both outfield and infield). I think he would be perfect as a "super utility" kind of guy.

Hmmm. Wasn't there talk last year about moving him to 2B?

by Jeffrey R on Jun 19, 2006 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I'd call that "loose talk."

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

This looks like the "If I was king for a day: scenario ...I'll bite ...

Sign a guy like Burnitz (not him exactly) to play LF/RF making Michaels/Blake the 4th OF and Gutierrez the fifth

Trade Westbrook, an A prospect (pick one from Sowers etc) and a lower B prospect for a top of the rotation guy (i.e. a guy like Willis).

Trade Broussard for a 2B prospect and RP.

Then you have:

C: VMart/Shoppach, 1B: Garko/Hafner/VMart, 2B: FA-Loretta, 3B: Marte, SS: Peralta, IF: Boone, Perez, LF: Michaels/Blake, CF: Sizemore, RF: FA-Burnitz, OF: Blake/Michaels

SP: Sabathia, Willis, Lee, Byrd, Guthrie/Carmona
RP: Cabrera, Carmona/Guthrie, Betancourt, trade, other AAA guys/FA

Line-up: FA-Loretta, Michaels/Blake, Sizemore, Hafner, VMart, FA-Burnitz, Peralta, Marte, Garko

and our bench is way way better than this year with Perez, Boone, Blake/Michaels there. You could rest V-Mart cause losing his bat wouldn't hurt too bad batting Shoppach 9th.

Just my thoughts.

Dean

by talonk on Jun 19, 2006 4:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I say we go all out.

Trade Blake, Broussard, Belliard and Boone for whatever you can get. Ideally, a second baseman with a decent glove is in there somewhere. I don't really care if he hits much. Or you can keep Boone as a utility guy, whatever, as long as he isn't starting.

Bring up Marte and Shoppach and keep Gutierrez here.

Gutierrez plays left everyday.

Marte plays third everyday.

Hafner moves to first.

Martinez moves to DH.

Shoppach is our everyday catcher.

I mean, why not? We have nothing to lose at this point.

by gogiggs on Jun 19, 2006 5:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I would go with F) all of the above. With the caveat that Jay makes a good point about needing someone to stand at 2B in place of Belliard.

I don't understand why we shouldn't have a mini-2002 redux. I've argued in other threads that we should test the water on one of (but not more than one) of Lee, Byrd, and Westbrook. And one of, but not more than one of Michaels/Blake.

Maybe this team shakes off the doldrums, gains respectability and heads into 2007 with some momentum, but I think there's an argument to be had that we need to be looking at 2008.

And by the way, we're about a week away from the 4-year anniversary of the Colon mega-deal. The time to act is mid to late June, not mid to late July.

by cheech99 on Jun 19, 2006 5:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Except that there is no Omar Minaya GM'ing an about-to-be-contracted prospect-laden farm system.

I don't think we'll see the likes of the Colon deal again anytime soon. The other GM's have figured out how valuable their best upper-minor prospects are.

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I just want to point out a few things.

For everyone who justifies breaking up the team by asking "Could it get any worse," the answer is clearly yes. It can. It probably will. What are the odds that Marte, Garko, Sowers, whatever half of the Buffalo pen you plan on bringing up, and Inglett will all be productive major league players?

Ryan hit the nail on the head a few weeks ago when he called this the backup quarterback syndrome. I'm as frustrated as any of you. But wishing all these guys were gone just so they can be gone is completely short-sighted. I'm sick of looking at some of these guys too. But let's not pretend replacing them with farmhands will be any better. It's exactly what happened to the Royals.

It's not 2002. Deal away the team and attendance will take a hit, and I don't know if we'll be able to recover again. Also - do we have a Colon to deal? And are we as bad now as we were then? No.

by mkwng on Jun 19, 2006 7:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I am not advocating wholesale changes right now. I have mentioned this before, to do such a thing would create a huge 40 man roster issue.

I was going with the theme of what would I change (mainly looking forward to next season). I truly believe we need package up some of our good young pitching prospects and a veteran such as Broussard, Westbrook etc. and trade for a dominant player (whether it be Willis or a power hitting OF). We supposedly have the cash to take on that kind of a salary and will have a hard time retaining all of your young pitchers on the 40 next year anyways. I think it is a win-win deal. But that is just me ....

by talonk on Jun 19, 2006 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Agreed. I don't think that playing the kids will make the Indians better, at least not this year. But, if moving some of the inessential players now allows Shap. to get some new talent into the organization and allows the team to figure out which (if any) of the kids are keepers, then at least the season is productive (if not in the way that we had all hoped).

by jdudas on Jun 19, 2006 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I quite agree. Young players are inconsistent until they get some "road" behind them. Starting that process a few months early has to be a good thing -- and besides, what the hell else are we supposed to do for three months?

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Oh, and I'd trade Wickman.

by mkwng on Jun 19, 2006 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

He's not worth much on the trade market. He will retire this year. Not to mention he may just be a 10 and 5 guy, so he could reject the trade outright.

by talonk on Jun 19, 2006 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

I'd think that as a "proven closer," he'd be one of our more valuable assets. And I'm sure we could work something out.

Anyway, it was one of the options provided in the poll. "Just my thoughts."

by mkwng on Jun 19, 2006 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

He is a 10/5 guy, but I think he would accept a trade to a contender. The question is, is there a contender that really needs an established closer, or that would want Wickman as a setup guy?

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Boston's bullpen is bad after Papelbon. The Dodgers have to be worried if Gagne doesn't come back. I bet somebody will want him.

Wickman's been here 4 full seasons, plus less than half of 2000 and less than half of this year - is he still a 10/5?

by mkwng on Jun 20, 2006 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Yes he is, he was traded to the Tribe on July 28, 2000 with Jason Bere and Steve Woodard for Sexson, Paul Rigdon, Kane Davis and PTNL (Marco Scutaro).

Cool trivia, he was dealt to the Brewers with Gerald Williams for Graeme Lloyd, Pat Listach, and PTNL (Ricky Bones). When Bones failed a physical, Listach was returned and subsequently one the Rookie of the Year over Loften (one of the worst voting ever done by the writers, maybe second only to Belle getting snubbed by Mo Vaughn in 95).

He was also dealt to the Yankess in the Steve Sax trade from the White Sox. I forgot he started with our rivals.

by talonk on Jun 20, 2006 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

He was on the roster for all of 2001-2005, five seasons, so he must be a 10-5. He's been here for parts of seven seasons and almost six full years on the calendar. It just doesn't seem that way because aside from a Spring Training tease in 2004, he spent two years continuously on the DL.

by Jay on Jun 20, 2006 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Thanks, guys. I was counting lines on the B-Ref page - I forgot it skipped 2003. Sorry!

by mkwng on Jun 20, 2006 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Look, I know it's not 2002. That's why I termed it a mini-2002. I'm not saying trade everyone of value. We all know what are core is.

Somebody smarter than me on such things can jump in here. But how much worse can attendance really get? Why do I even care? I don't know the financial ramifications of trading the aforementioned pieces and losing walkup attendance dollars, concession dollars, etc.

I don't want them to be gone "just so they can be gone". Hang on to them if you can't get anything of value for them.

by cheech99 on Jun 19, 2006 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

You nailed it on all counts. Of course you should trade every player facing free agency, as long as you can get something of SOME value. It's a no-brainer.

I also don't buy attendance arguments. Season tickets are already sold. The walkup ticket-buying fans wouldn't have to be geniuses to figure out this team is out of the race. With that as a given, how can it cost the team ticket sales if they're playing new, exciting prospects -- and everyone has heard of Marte and Garko -- vs. the same people everyone wants shot?

by Jay on Jun 19, 2006 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

And, of course, guys like Ben Broussard and Bob Wickman don't put asses in the seats, especially when you're talking about walk-up tickets. Dealing those types (guys with no future on the club due to younger, cheaper players behind them) is pretty much a no-brainer, IMO.

by Kos on Jun 21, 2006 1:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My thoughts!

Hello everyone,

mkwng - if the Indians start winning again in the future, the fans WILL come back - they always have, even after the debacles of the 1960-1980s. How else did we get the 455 consecutive game sellout streak?

Granted, you can't totally ignore the money that comes in from attendance, but is this franchise that desperate where they have to base everything they do on whether they get another 50,000 fans to the ballpark? You're not going to advance anywhere just taking into account what the fans think.

If that were the case, we would never have traded Colon and have Sizemore and Lee right now. And honestly, can you actually say that that 2002 team back then would be better than the team we had last year, or even this year? I can't - we had few prospects in the farm system at that time, Colon, and I believe a few others, were becoming free agents, and there was no STO for extra revenue.

Therefore, having a mini-fire sale involving non-core pieces doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. What's the alternative? Go ahead and keep every guy here when you're likely to lose several of them in the offseason anyway?

No, I think some smart trades are in order to clear out some of the ML roster, a bit of the logjam in the Minors (though at most, I'd trade one or two top prospects if necessary, and preferably, not the absolutely best ones; find a way to keep those, even if you have to give up two mid-level prospects with lower ceilings in place of one great prospect,) and get some new players in here that shore up our weaknesses and make us a better ballclub for 2007, 2008, and beyond.

Just my 5 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jun 19, 2006 9:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Every here seems to agree that we should sell. I'm with you, and I'm sure Shapiro has figured it out.

That being said, there's probably no harm in waiting 2 or 3 more weeks. I know the chances of us getting back in this thing are sub 5%, but does it really matter if we bring up the kids now as opposed to 3 weeks from now? Mentally I've given up, but why not 3 more weeks? (Of course, keeping the phone lines open so we don't miss a killer deal.)

Take my advice with a grain of salt, because every move that I've supported with this team has turned out poorly.

Also, every move that I've opposed has turned out poorly.

by dgcambridge on Jun 20, 2006 11:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: The state of the Tribe

Well; this ensures that you are always right 50% of the time. That's not bad, really.

by jdudas on Jun 20, 2006 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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