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Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update

I always planned to write this during the All-Star break.  What I couldn't have predicted is how much more interesting our prospects would be than our big-leaguers by this point.

Back in February, I introduced a new and mostly objective method of rating prospects, which I called the Exciting Prospect Standard.  You can read the original article for the full story, but the main objective of the system is to make a list of prospects worth getting excited about, from the point of view of your average diehard fan who generally follows only the major league team.  To make the list, a prospect has to have succeeded at Triple-A at age 25 or younger, at Double-A at age 23 or younger, at High-A at age 21 or younger, at Low-A at age 19 or younger, or in a Rookie league at age 17.

The EPS attempts to identify:  Which guys are the most likely to contribute to the Indians winning a pennant?  Which guys are going to contribute the most, and which guys are going to contribute the soonest?
Indians Prospects Worth Getting Excited About, July 2006
Listed with position, age as of July 1, and most recent EPS rank.

1. JEREMY SOWERS - 23 - starter - #3.  He's 23 years old, right now, and already a major league starter, right now, and maybe even a good one ... pretty soon.  'Nuff said.

2. ANDY MARTE - 22 - third base - #1.  The EPS is so high on Marte that it might take two bad years, not months, to knock him out of the top three.  Marte put up a Pronkesque 1042 OPS for the month of June, despite hitting into a little bad luck (.265 BABIP) and playing in a pitcher's league.  Even beyond service time considerations, one could argue that the Indians should let him continue to bludgeon Triple-A pitchers clear through August, just to erase any doubt in his own mind that he's simply above those players.  It sure worked for Hafner.

3. FRANKLIN GUTIERREZ - 23 - outfielder - #11.  Gutierrez has reached the majors at age 23, and other than that I can just repeat my previous report:  "... his speed and prodigious defense give him a lot of ways potentially to contribute.  If he can really get a handle on his contact hitting, he's a threat to hit 40 home runs."  He may spend a little more time in Triple-A this season, but he should be a permanent major leaguer starting next Spring.

4. ASDRUBAL CABRERA - 20 - shortstop - NR.  After strong showings at various levels of A-ball in 2005, Cabrera should have spent this entire season in Double-A, and even that would amounted to a fairly brisk pace of development.  Instead, the Mariners almost sadistically sent him to Triple-A, where he's struggled but not been entirely overmatched.  It seems reasonable to assume that Cabrera could have put up a solid 800 OPS in Double-A and probably would have matched Trevor Crowe at Kinston.  At age 20, that means EPS loves this guy.  Throw in more than a few bonus points for being an elite defender at a key position.

5. ED MUJICA - 22 - reliever - #9.  The EPS is proud to have hyped this prospect way more than anyone else did -- 46 scoreless innings, are you effin' kidding me?  Our front office may have cracked the code on developing relievers -- and it's a good thing, because our veterans have been just God-awful.

6. ADAM MILLER - 21 - starter - #6.  Still just 21, still in Double-A, and showing some signs of returning to his dominant form from 2004.  In his last seven starts, he's flashed a 2.51 ERA, 1.17 WHIP and 44:14 K:BB over 43 innings.  He likely will spend all of next season in Triple-A, at 22.  Expect the Indians to continue tight control of his workload at least through 2007.

7. CHUCK LOFGREN - 20 - starter - #7.  EPS claims bragging rights again, as Lofgren continues his success at High-A, highlighted by a 10-3 record, a 2.09 ERA and just one home run allowed in 82 innings.  He could stand to walk guys a little less, and his K rate is "only" 8.45, but remember, he's only 20!  It will be interesting to see if the Indians give him a shot at Double-A this season.

8. RAFAEL PEREZ - 24 - reliever - NR.  Perez likely is not a finished product but nonetheless is hanging out in our lefty-starved major league bullpen out of organizational necessity.  Perez would not make this list purely based on his achievements in Double-A at age 24, where he was a starter.  That said, his ability to contribute at the big-league or Triple-A level is rather beyond dispute at this point.

9. JOHN DRENNEN - 19 - outfielder - NR.  Drennen is going to have to cut down on his strikeouts at some point, but his numbers otherwise are excellent all-around, including a terrific .125 walk rate, which combines with his .316 average to produce a .412 OBP.  While his 20 extra base hits are not particularly inspiring, .478 slugging is more than adequate for a teenage prospect whose raw strength is still developing -- and remember, one of those extra base hits was a home run off Roger Clemens.

10. TOM MASTNY - 25 - reliever - NR.  Mastny will be 26 by April and so is making his one and only appearance on this list.  It is nonetheless well earned, as Mastny has piled up 68 K's in only 57 innings in Double-A and Triple-A without allowing a single home run.  Keith Law writes:  "The 6-5 Mastny has a fringe-average fastball but outstanding control, and with a good season so far between Double-A Akron and Triple-A Buffalo, he seems likely to become the first big leaguer born in Indonesia, which would become the 52nd country to produce a major-league player."

11. SEAN SMITH - 22 - starter - NR.  Smith is one of the fringier players on this list, but he's spent most of the season in Double-A so far, and his numbers are solid if not dominant.  He's got the ERA (2.36) but not the peripherals (5.8 K/9) -- but at age 22 in Double-A, he's still ahead of the curve.

12. RYAN GARKO - 25 - 1B/C - #5.  Garko is still exciting, just not quite as exciting as he used to be.  If the Indians don't get him some real playing time in Cleveland this season, you have to start to wonder what they know about him that we don't.

13. ANDREW BROWN - 25 - reliever - #10.  Like Garko, it would be fair to say his stock has fallen somewhat -- 25 is not a good age to start regressing.  One does have to remember, however, how far Brown has come, the injuries he's overcome, and how unhittable he can be.  He's struggled a bit, but he's still exciting.  Brown is in his last option year and should be expected to get some major league work before the end of the season.


EXPELLED:  BRAD SNYDER - 24 - outfielder - #7.  One of the main goals of the EPS is not to waste a casual fan's time by telling him about a prospect that won't ever actually help the big league club.  Because the EPS worships youth and advancement above all else, the EPS has very few false positives.  A prospect who makes it onto the list can have a bad few months or even a bad entire season, and he still has a year or two to recover while remaining on the list.  In fact, he's likely to have such a recovery, because of his youth and prior achievements.

Snyder was a borderline case.  He'd done well but not exceptionally well in a half-season at Double-A, and he would start the season in Double-A again, now 24.  I waved him in based on the optimism of other experts and his exceptional all-around tools.  Frankly, he looked better than Gutierrez in some respects, but it was a mistake.  Snyder has regressed, putting up bad rate stats and equally bad peripherals.  Snyder is off the list, and he never should have been on it.  In the future, I will adhere more closely to the rules:  To be considered "thriving" at any level, the EPS requires either clear-cut statistical success, or solid numbers a year younger than the EPS requires, or promotion to a higher level.

GRADUATED:  Prospects graduate from the EPS either by (a) turning 26 or (b) staying in the majors long enough to no longer be considered prospects.  FAUSTO CARMONA - 22 - starter - #5.  FERNANDO CABRERA - 24 - reliever - #2.  KELLY SHOPPACH - 26 - catcher - #12.  Garko, Mastny and Brown -- and probably Sowers and Gutierrez -- will graduate from the list by next Spring.


The Big Snubs:  The EPS has a consistent response to 22-year-olds putting up eye-popping numbers at Kinston:  "Get back to me once you're beating up players your own age in Akron."  Trevor Crowe, Scott Lewis and Joe Ness have generated a lot of buzz, but they won't be legitimately exciting prospects until they've done it above A-ball.  That goes double for Wyatt Toregas, who's a year older.

We possibly could create a loophole for Kevin Kouzmanoff, whose numbers are so ridiculous that it seems obvious that he'd be succeeding at Triple-A, were he not blocked by Marte.  But if we're going to get creative about the rules, we probably shouldn't start with a prospect who has a persistent injury history. Tony Sipp is another close call; his season has been equal parts great pitching and rehabbing.

"The Big O-fer" continues for "The Big Four," all of whom are older than Sowers, Carmona, Mujica, Miller, Lofgren, Smith and Sipp.  We shouldn't be excited about a relief prospect unless he has a shocking K rate and a miniscule ERA; Travis Foley has neither.  As a 23-year-old starter in Triple-A, Jake Dittler would seem to qualify.  However, he's never put up an impressive ERA or K rate anywhere in the high minors, and his assignment to Buffalo seems to have more to do with his ticking option clock than his actual achievement.

The "Interesting" List:  These players are on the cusp of making the Exciting Prospects list next Spring, if they thrive at their next stop (or finally conquer their current stop) in the second half:  Crowe, Ness, Scott Lewis, Toregas, Kouzmanoff, Sipp, Foley, Dittler, Ben Francisco, Dan Denham, Bear Bay, Aaron Laffey, J.D. Martin and Nick Pesco.  It's worth noting that most of the prospects on this list have arrived at Double-A but have yet to conquer that level.  They're all good prospects, but they just haven't crossed that line yet.

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Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Ok well this is a fantastic list. Mind if I link it in another board as long as I give you full recognition?

Also, what do the numbers by the Graduated players represent?

by Joe. on Jul 9, 2006 11:44 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Of course you can link it, and thanks!

The graduated players are notated the same as the main list -- name, age as of July 1, position, and rank on the preseason list.

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 1:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Thanks Jay.  It's a good list.  Shapiro will have some tough decisions to make.

I understand your point on the snubs.  But the snub list does confirm what I'd expect:  your EPS makes things pretty hard on college draftees.

It's just an observation.  Obviously, Sowers is #1, but he pushed through the system pretty fast.  The question is: should that kind of pace be a requirement to be on a list like this?  

Obviously Sower's trip is impressive, but doesn't Crowe's pace seem reasonable?

A related question: should we change our view of a 23 year old at AA depending on whether it's his 2nd year in pro ball or his 6th?  I don't know if anyone has studied this.

by dgcambridge on Jul 9, 2006 11:46 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I don't think the EPS is hard on college players.  Many highly regarded prospects hit their ceiling at or below the Double-A level.  The EPS just demands that players demonstrate that they can break through that ceiling, regardless of how or when they got signed.  What we see with prospects is physical development coinciding with skill development.  The physical part is going to peak out around 23-24, regardless of whether you went to college or not.

Sowers' level of achievement is above the standard, which is why he's ranked #1.  If Sowers had put up great numbers at Double-A, rather than dominating Triple-A and getting called up to the bigs, he'd still be on this list.

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 1:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
To answer directly, yes, absolutely, Crowe's rate of progress is quite reasonable.  This is not a list of prospects making reasonable progress, which would be a little more than twice as long.

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 2:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Maybe I shouldn't have used a wimpy word like "reasonable".  I still think the system is overly cautious on college players.  Crowe was drafted last year, pushed his way through higher A and is in AA in his first full year.

by dgcambridge on Jul 13, 2006 12:27 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Thanks for the post, good stuff as usual.  I will now commence with the second guessing, as I think there could be much debate between #3-9 on your list.

I'd put Drennen up above Mujica, Perez, and possibly Lofgren. He's a year out of high school and is, quite clearly, the best player at Lake County this year.  I simply don't think a high schooler can perfrom any better than he has as quickly as he has.  As you say, he hits for average and power, is selective at the plate, and I believe a legit defensive center fielder. In short, he's done everything to put him on track to be a starting outfielder for us when he is 22 or 23.  That being said, he doesn't have a long history of performance and is still in Low A, so I can understand his place on your list at the same time.

And even though they don't fit into the criteria, I still get excited about Crowe and Lewis.  Lewis, especially, has destroyed A+ hitters and I just don't see him falling apart as long as his health keeps up.  Anyway, I'd give both he and Crowe a break there - but that's just me, and this isn't my list :)

by Thommy on Jul 9, 2006 11:52 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I don't give a hell of a lot of thought to the specific ranking, but my general thinking is to consider just how thoroughly a guy has met or clobbered the criteria.  Among those who make the cut at all, I tend to favor those who have conquered at higher levels, because you can never be sure if the lower guys will ever achieve what they already have.  Drennen in a way was a borderline case, because he'll be 20 by the end of the season.  I decided he should make the cut because his statistical case is pretty clear-cut -- without rationalizing at all, we can say he has mastered Low-A at age 19.

I simply don't think a high schooler can perfrom any better than he has as quickly as he has.

Well, Adam Miller did, and that's why he's ranked higher.  Chuck Lofgren was just as good as Drennen if not a little better, and he's followed it up with another half-season of success at a higher level.  So I don't see how Drennen can be ranked ahead of either of them.  Three others ranked ahead of him are actually in the majors and are 1-3 years ahead of the EPS cutoff.  AstroCab is just nine months older than Drennen and three levels higher!

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 2:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
You'll note that I didn't suggest Drennen should be higher than Miller.  Miller is a tad younger, but they were both drafted out of high school, so I have a hard time penalizing a few months of age.  Miller didn't move faster, he was just drafted 2 years earlier.  They are actually on a similar path, progression wise.

Lofgren was also drafted earlier than Drennen (by a year), but again followed a similar timeline. Yes, he too is an arbitrary few months younger at draft time than Drennen, but if JD spends the year at LC they will be on the same timeline.

Regardless, it's a close call.  But for my money, I'll take the kid who is a level lower and arbitrarly a few months older - but who is a non-pitcher and plays a premium defensive position.

I'll admit I snickered I read your AstroCab comment.  First because I think AstroCab should be the hero of a gameboy game, and secondly because you know as well as I do that if he was an Indian all along he wouldn't be at AAA right now.  Furthermore, he wasn't drafted out of high school, so his timeline is allowed to be a bit different in my high schooler progression thought tract concept thingie.

Again, it's not my list, and I appreciate you posting it to give me something to ponder.

by Thommy on Jul 10, 2006 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I find that most folks either underestimate the difference between the levels, or the importance of youth, or both.  And when folks disagree with my rankings or the system in general, it tends to come down to that.  It is safe to assume that if Cabrera and Drennen were in the same league right now, Cabrera would be outshining Drennen considerably at the plate.  Drennen presumably will close the gap over the next three years and (we hope) hit even better than Cabrera.  But Cabrera is well ahead right now, and is also an slick defender at SS rather than a CF.  The comparison is not close (for now).

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 10:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
You're not going to like this...

The definition you put forth for EPS was to be "succeeding" at the level they were at for a given age.  It's difficult or impossible to say that ACab has succeeded at anything past A ball in 192 ABs last year.  He hit 318/407/474 there, but regressed to 284/325/418 in A+ the latter half of last year.  Couple that with a 227/306/342 line combined in AAA this year, and there is no way one can say he has been successful at that level, and great defense at the key defensive position isn't enough to overcome that horrific batting line.

Neither you or I can say who would outhit who at A ball right now, as thier lines there were/are pretty similar and only seperated by a year of age.  

I do quite well understand the difference between the levels and age considerations of prospects, I just disagree with your conclusions.  Which is fine, I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm just offering a different opinion.

And just to make sure I'm being clear, I never said Drennen should be placed above Cabrera on your list in the first place.

by Thommy on Jul 10, 2006 1:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
What you've reported is not exactly news to me.  AstroCab would have made the preseason list in very ordinary fashion, having succeeded at Low-A at age 19 (with basically the same numbers as Drennen by the way).

If you go back to the original article, there is a strong presumption that the organization has assigned a player appropriately.  If the orgnization thinks he's done with High-A, he's done with High-A.  Their decisions are made with the benefit of more information than we have.  If they think Gutierrez is ready for Triple-A but Snyder isn't, we should take their word for it.

Even beyond that, all that the EPS asks of a 20-year-old is that he puts up solid numbers at High-A.  Given what he's done at Triple-A, I think it's very reasonable to assume that he'd be succeeding not one, but TWO levels below.  I would give any player at any age that benefit of the doubt.

I didn't mean to sound argumentative, but you asked about ranks 3-9, so I answered you.

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 1:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I tweaked the wording a bit as it was misleading.  If a player is promoted above the required level for his age, he isn't judged as "in or out" based on that level, but relative to the level required of his age.  If you're playing ABOVE the required level, it generally is presumed that you'd have been thriving AT the required level.  Other than Jake Dittler, whom I wrote about, I think I've interpreted that requirement consistently.

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 2:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Understood.  He's an odd case, and I didn't mean to say he's not worthy of being on the list, and close to where you list him in terms of rank order.  I just wish he wasn't in AAA right now, or, alternately, that I've completely misread his skill set and that we aren't hurting his career by putting him in AAA (over his head) now.  But I hate to have the latter worry about such a good prospect, and that's what kills me.

by Thommy on Jul 10, 2006 2:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He did have 3 hits yesterday, including a 2B!
Hello Thommy,

I can understand your concerns about having Cabrera at AAA; personally, I originally wanted him at AA myself - Ivan Ochoa is at best, a utility guy, and could probably be put in that position, while allowing Cabrera to take over at SS, playing next to Eider Torres at AA Akron.

However, seeing him get 3 hits, including a 2B, in yesterday's win against Pawtucket (I think that was the team Buffalo faced,) makes me think that maybe he can handle AAA - he just needs extra time there and really shouldn't be brought up until the second half of 2007 at the earliest so that it is more likely he has really mastered the AAA level after jumping up two levels this year.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 4:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: He did have 3 hits yesterday, including a 2B!
One 3/4 day and your entire outlook is changed? What are you, my stockbroker?  Dave...is that you?  You owe me money!

by Thommy on Jul 10, 2006 5:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jay said exactly what I was thinking! :-)
Hello Thommy,

Sorry, wrong guy - I'm not in the stock market, at least, not at this point, LOL! :-)

My main point was that I would have sent Cabrera to AA as soon as we got him from Seattle, just because I thought that it might help his offensive development more if he was at the level he should have been at to start 2006.

The first few days he was at Buffalo, he didn't do very well, including striking out twice in one game, as well as sporadic strikeouts here and there.  That led to a BA under .200.

As a result, I thought that sending him to AA might have been the best choice.  But, to his credit, he bounced back with three hits, plus he's been using the whole field from the game logs I've read, so his approach has been pretty good - he just wasn't getting many hits the first few days at Buffalo.  So, maybe having him at AAA Buffalo is the right move after all.

Jay said what I was thinking - I think AA was the level Cabrera should have been at, but I'm hopeful that his exposure to AAA pitching will make him stronger and not destroy his confidence.  After a slow start, he's rebounded nicely to about .230 or so, so it seems that he can take on AAA right now with hopefully, no loss of confidence or offensive progression.  

Like I've said before though, I would leave him at AAA through most, if not all of 2007, just to let him catch his breath and make sure that he can be a good offensive performer when he arrives in the Majors.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 11, 2006 8:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Yeah, having him at Triple-A is just a weird situation, and he certainly had not earned that promotion by any reasonable standard.  I ranked him the way I would given a solid performance at Double-A, which is the only way I can think of to handle it.

If he's been ruined by being overly challenged, the damage was already done by the Mariners organization.  By now, he's been seeing Triple-A pitching for three months.  It hasn't killed him ... hopefully it's made him stronger.

by Jay on Jul 11, 2006 1:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Very good work, Jay!
Hello Jay,

Great work with your list - I remember reading the original article and it made plenty of sense.

No bragging intended, but I came pretty much to the same conclusion on Brad Snyder by watching his progress at AA this year and last year - I have serious doubts that he will be a contributor to the Indians in the future.  The Indians thought he would be getting meaningful AAA time this year, but if he does, it will be extremely limited.

dgcambridge - I haven't studied the question you asked, but my opinion is that a 23-year old at AA who is only in his 2nd year in professional ball (i.e. college draftee) should be ranked much higher than a 23-year old at AA who is in his 6th year of professional ball (i.e. high school draftee.)

Granted, a college draftee is supposed to progress faster than a high school draftee, but if it takes a prospect essentially 5-6 years to get up to AA from Rookie Ball, I wouldn't expect him to become a great ML player.

I think Mike Conroy might be a good example - he was a supplemental high-school 1st round pick back in 2001 (along with Denham, Dittler, Martin, Foley, etc.) and is now 23 years old, yet he's only made it up as high as High-A Kinston in 2005 after posting a .268/.323/.398 at Low-A Lake County in 2004 at 21 years old.  

After struggling too much at Kinston in 2005 at age 22 with a .241/.324/.444 line, he was sent back to Lake County this year at age 23 and is performing at this level:  .248/.311/.410

Now struggling at Lake County, I've virtually given up all hope that he will be a contributor.  Granted, he's 23 years old, so there's a chance he could be a late bloomer, but it's really doubtful.  

I remember when he was drafted back in 2001 that he was considered one of the better, more polished high-school bats in that draft class (the Red Sox were really interested since he's from Massachusetts,) but he is, by most accounts, a bust.

So, essentially, a college draftee who is at AA at age 23 would rank higher in my mind and have a better chance at contributing in the Majors than a high school draftee who is at AA at age 23 who has taken around 5 years to get to AA.

Just my 5 cents.

Again, great work, Jay! :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 1:03 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
A month ago, I watched tha Aeros play in Connecticut, and was particularly interested in scouting Brad Snyder. My view of him was limited, but he seemed much less than advertised. One night in New Britain, he backpeddled on a routine fly to right and got completely turned around as the ball dropped behind him. I thought, well,we've got enough of those guys in Cleveland already. On the other hand, Jonathan van Every hit a ball over the right centerfield wall farther than I had seen anything hit in New Britain, going back to the days of David Ortiz or even Ellis Burks.

by connecticut wahoo on Jul 10, 2006 7:45 AM EDT   0 recs

Thanks for the info.!
Hello connecticut wahoo, welcome if you're new! :-)

Thanks for the info. - I've noticed that Snyder has made a few errors in the outfield; not as noticing as Marte's 19 errors at Buffalo, but still something to notice.  Plus, I noticed he's played a considerable amount of RF, as well as CF.

I remember some of the media was mentioning at the beginning of this season that Snyder would begin at AAA.  I thought, "Are you kidding me?"  He walked 25 times and struck out 94 times in 304 ABs at AA last year.  The .280 AVG wouldn't look that bad on the surface, but looking at the peripherals, they're essentially horrible - that's nearly a 4:1 K:BB ratio.  There's virtually no way he would have survived at AAA with those weak peripherals.

It's certainly disappointing that he hasn't improved at AA Akron this year; I presume part of the dropoff is due to trying to change his approach and be more patient, but as highly-touted as he was, I would have thought he would have found the consistency at AA Akron by now.  At this rate, he'll be lucky to get any AAA at-bats in 2006.  

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 6:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Just a quick comment...is the Gutierrez thing a typo? Sure he's only had less than 100 at-bats in the big leagues, but there is absolutely no chance that he ever comes close to hitting 40 homeruns.

by ASP on Jul 10, 2006 8:32 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Absolutely no chance might be a bit harsh, but I certailny agree that he's fallen far out of the expectations he set in 2003 at Vero Beach.  I think 20 is his reasonable high side, but I hope I'm wrong.

by Thommy on Jul 10, 2006 10:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I admit that I'm relying on others' scouting reports in that characterization.  Gutierrez's raw power was considered one of most impressive tools, and I think fans' perceptions of his power potential have been clouded by intermittent injuries and his persistence in adjusting to a revised batting approach.  Without the revised batting approach, he might be flopping around in Akron like Brad Snyder.  Without the injuries, he might already be an established big-league hitter.

Some highlights from Baseball America ...

"Gutierrez has developed into a dynamic five-tool prospect and there's still room for projection. A future heart-of-the-order masher ..." (2004)

"Gutierrez has electrifying bat speed. He destroys pitches on the inner half of the plate. His strength and natural lift give him the potential to hit 30-plus homers in the majors, though his elbow injury muted his power in 2004." (2005)

"Gutierrez generates tremendous bat speed and crushes inside pitches, and he also shows the ability to take balls the other way through improved pitch recognition." (2006)

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 10:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I think Gutierrez would be great for this team as a number two hitter that hit between 20-30 HR a year.  He is fast and as long as he keeps the average high maybe he could be exactly what Crisp did but with a little more power.  

So, essentially you get Gutierrez to take the place of Crisp and you add Marte in the lineup as the guy you traded Crisp for.  In other words, no EVENTUAL drop off from Coco and an addition of Marte...

by Tribe Alive on Jul 10, 2006 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Not really.  It's more like, if we'd kept Crisp, and Gutierrez had won a lineup spot, either Crisp or Blake would have had to give way.

by Jay on Jul 10, 2006 2:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Marte's 19 errors should also be another reason to let him stick in Buffalo for awhile.

Granted, someone making as many errors as Boone would be OK, IF they hit similar to Andy Marte.

No stick and no glove are no way to go through a major league season.....ESPECIALLY at 3B!

by CbusTribefan on Jul 10, 2006 10:03 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
Jay, you put together a nice list. I was about to create a diary to post two short lists: prospects that exceeded my expectations and prospects that disappointed me.

However, your list already covered the prospects that exceeded my expectations, especially  Jeremy Sowers. And, you mentioned the prospect who disappointed me most: Brad Snyder (so much for that speedy outfield of Gutierrez, Sizemore & Snyder!!).

Not to dwell on the negative, but the other prospects who have disappointed me most in 2006 so far (and granted my expectations certainly vary from other peoples')are Michael Aubrey (thoses injuries are doing him in !!) and the guys who aren't following up on their outstanding 2005 seasons: Stephen Head and Ryan Mulhern. So much for being well-stocked at 1B.

by kov on Jul 10, 2006 1:21 PM EDT   0 recs

I was thinking the same thing about 1B!
Hello kov,

Yes, I was thinking the same thing about our depth at 1B - beyond Garko, there's not much at this point.

Aubrey - doubtful he'll even be a productive MLer at this point - too many injuries and not enough progression as he's still adjusting to AA.

Mulhern - disappointing year at AA after breaking through last year - not nearly the consistency or the BA we were expecting.

Head - arguably one of the most disappointing prospects in the Indians' farm system this year - he's only hitting .210 or so at High-A, and this is a college draftee from the SEC (Mississippi.)  Makes one wonder whether the Indians may try him on the mound if he can't start progressing with the bat in the near future (he was a pretty good pitcher in college - mostly used as a reliever, 17-7, low 2s ERA, less than a H/IP, 61 BB, 174 K in 210.0 IP at Mississippi.)

That's why I thought Kouzmanoff could figure into the mix at 1B, since our depth beyond Garko is essentially gone.  

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 6:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: I was thinking the same thing about 1B!
A good catch on both Head as a pitcher and KK as a 1B.  I never understood the hype around Head, if memory serves correctly, he hasn't had a good year in 2 years and his biggest asset has been "raw power", which I think means he hits home runs in batting practice.  

It'd be a shame to move Kouz to 1B so quickly, but it'd be a bigger shame not to get him in the lineup.

by Thommy on Jul 10, 2006 7:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: I was thinking the same thing about 1B!
Let's not forget, Head was a second-round college pick.  He never had a superstar ceiling, just a high probability of making it to the majors as a decent player -- not that different from Garko actually.

Scouts also felt that his hitting would improve once he coudl focus on it without worrying about pitching.  It hasn't happened yet, but it's certainly too early to give up on him.

by Jay on Jul 11, 2006 1:17 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: I was thinking the same thing about 1B!
Head has been a dissapointment to say the least. I think the hype around him was due to crushing short-season ball last year. His stats have regressed considerably since then.

I've been a big Head proponent. The guy was the best hitter and pitcher on argubaly the best SEC team his last year in college. With a big body, and hope that his hitting would really progress when he only concentrated on hitting made sense to me. Sometimes things don't work out.

Last fall, I was high on Head and down on Drennan and Crowe. Jay told me I was silly to read too much into a half a season (last year), and half a season later (this year) he sure looks smart. Let us hope the good half seasons of Drennan and Crowe do not end up regressing like Head's did.

by oxforddave on Jul 11, 2006 12:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks; agreed on Head!
Hello Thommy,

Thanks for the props and support! :-)

I don't know what was with the big hype surrounding Head either - looking back at his collegiate numbers at Ole Miss, his BB/K ratios
were

15/33 (0.45 BB/1 K)
23/37 (0.62 BB/1 K)
28/38 (0.74 BB/1 K)

Not bad, but I've seen better than that from other collegiate prospects.

Plus, Head only batted .337, .346, and .333 respectively.  Again, not horrible, but for aluminum bats, not all that impressive, as I have seen better there as well.

Regarding his power, he hit 6, 13, and 18 HRs respectively, in over 200 ABs each year.  Again, not bad, but I've always been leery of prospects who have "raw power," but have holes in their swing - in my opinion, it always seems like those prospects have the hardest time producing at the ML level because they have a hard time closing those holes, yet still being able to produce that impressive power.  Mike Conroy seems like another draft pick who had a similar profile, yet he likely is a bust.

I think the exposure to High-A this year has just confirmed that Head was overrated for a 2nd-Rounder, where you definitely want to get a good, productive ML player.  To this point, Head is certainly not looking like one.  In fact, he doesn't look much better than Matt Whitney, another disappointing prospect.

Regarding Kouzmanoff moving to 1B, it wouldn't be my first choice, but it looks more and more like Marte will be the future 3B (though the 19 errors at Buffalo are really concerning to me.)  I'd prefer they keep Kouzmanoff rather than trade him as I think he could have a special bat, particularly when it comes to the BA and the BB/K ratio - I'd think he be one of those pesky, tough outs that always seems to put the bat on the ball and find a way to get the runs home.  

Several have mentioned that he might be like a Shea Hillenbrand-type, but Kouzmanoff performed better in the Minors than him and has much better BB/K ratios than Hillenbrand did.  The Indians, ironically, were interested in acquiring Hillenbrand a few years ago.  They might not need to - they might have a better version in their farm system - they just have to find a way to get his bat in the lineup when he's ready.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 8:20 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Thanks; agreed on Head!
 "I think he could have a special bat, particularly when it comes to the BA and the BB/K ratio"

I had to laugh when I read that indiansfan, it's been awhile since I read something quite so ludicrous!

By all accounts Kouzmanoff is a nice guy, good team player and kind to animals. No-one cay say he hasn't had a nice year in AA, but let's review the facts a little:

  1. 26 YEARS old in AA.
  2. Erroneously high (fortuitous) BABIP - .450!!!!
  3. BB/K ratio of 19/23 is decent NOT special
  4. Average defense - 9 errors in 80 games

No one, and I mean no-one would serious describe Kouzmanoff as having a special bat. There might be 5 guys in the whole of MLB who acceed to that definition. In the past 16 years I can think of ONE indians prospect who I might say had a special bat - Manny Ramirez. Thats not to say a lot didnt have good bats...

From the indians recent past some scenarios some career signposts for Kouzmanoff:

best case: Casey Blake
worst case: Earl Snyder

As a matter of interest I checked out BP's PECOTA card and found he was comfortably out performing his 90% percentile (292/340/475). Interestingly, PECOTA tabs his nearest comparable as Andy Phillips (not Mike Schmidt).

To say is has a special bat defies explanation and flies in the face of all facts and logical analysis. I doesn't matter how many times you write it - it will never become true.

by Alchemist on Jul 11, 2006 8:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Thanks; agreed on Head!
Ok, I may as well make one more friend on this message board.

  1. He's 24, and will be 25 on July 25th.
  2. The BABIP thing is interesting.  The case in point for a batter that can hit for average as a skill is Howie Kendrick, and his BABIP is 388 against RHP for a 348 average. (Why RHP? I'm lazy, don't feel like combining 60 ABs vs LHP, though the numbers are similar there). Yes, Kouz is around 450 for BABIP, but I suspect that hitters that have a very strong ability to hit for average (which Kouz is showing to perhaps an extreme) have much higher BABIP than the norm would expect.  If you ask my gut, it has to be that way, as he'd have to have 15% more or so at bats to have an average over 400 if his BABIP "should" really be around 280.  Does that make sense? He is an outlier, but there's no way possible that a hitter who can hit for a high average (350+) can have an average BABIP.  The numbers wouldn't work out as they couldn't have that many more at bats, I don't think.  I can flush that out better if that doesn't make sense.
  3. The BB/K ratio is a bit better than decent, and I think you know it.  That's a very good ratio, though it surely isn't his strength. Sure we'd like to see him walk in a touch more than 10% of his ABs, but when you're hitting 420, who cares?
  4. First of all, the statement you are retorting says he has a special bat, and this is obviously a defensive related comment.  Secondly, I think it's funny that in the same argument you use BABIP and Errors, two wildily divergent "statistics" on the evolutionary scale.

That being said, having a "special" bat is somewhat of a subjective thing.  Yes, he's older than we'd like, but he's only crushed the ball when he's been healthy, and he wouldn't be in AA if we didn't just trade a high profile player for our "3B of the future!" who is stacked above him.

Would I say he has a special bat?  Maybe.  Is he a special prospect?  Maybe not, but due to his age, not his bat.

by Thommy on Jul 11, 2006 10:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks, Thommy!
Hello Thommy,

Thanks for the support - greatly appreciated! :-)

alchemist - I said, "I think he could have a special bat" - that doesn't mean he will.  In essence, I like what I have seen so far from his bat and his approach at the plate.

In reference to his age, yes, he's a bit older than we'd like, but keep in mind that it's NOT because of his performance - he's hit .300 with a good BB/K ratio throughout his whole career (outside of a brief trial at AA Akron when Corey Smith was injured back in 2004 and he skipped High-A.)

Speaking of Corey Smith, he, Pat Osborn, and Andy Marte, in one way or another, blocked Kouzmanoff (Osborn and Marte directly; Smith indirectly because he blocked Osborn, who blocked Kouzmanoff) for the past few years.  That's why (along with a back injury at Kinston just before he was about to be called up) Kouzmanoff only reached AA at age 24, not because he's struggled and just all of a sudden found out how to hit.

If Kouzmanoff did not have anyone in front of him on his way up the ladder, it wouldn't be a stretch to say that he probably would be in the Majors right now at age 24 (he doesn't turn 25 until the end of this month.)  He'd at the very least would have a decent amount of AAA experience right now, probably ready to come up.  And from what I've seen and heard, it's reasonable to assume that he would be producing at AAA as well, probably enough to deserve a callup.

Therefore, I'm not knocking him down for age as much as you are because there's a difference between an older (23-25 YO) prospect who has struggled intermittently throughout the Minor Leagues and then suddenly breaks through with a great season (like Ryan Mulhern, Ryan Goleski, and Jonathan Van Every) versus an older prospect who has performed at every level, but was held back because there were other "top" prospects ahead of him.  Kouzmanoff can't help that the Indians blocked him with them as long as they did - it shouldn't be held against him.  

Besides, he's not even 25 years old yet - he's by no means "old" where he can't be a useful or even good player with a good bat.  Keep in mind that Garko is actually 6 months older than him.

Also, you say 19 BB/23 K is not special; I can understand if you're referring to his low walk rate, but he doesn't strike out much either.  How many Minor League Players can have nearly 200 ABs and strike out only around 10% of the time.  Not many - that's not special?!  Add in batting over .400 with an over 1.100 OPS at a level he was never at before (outside of a 7-game fill-in appearance in 2004) and I would think that would qualify as special!

Kouzmanoff may not have the ceiling of Marte, but he's no slouch in his own right, plus has hit for a better BA and has made fewer errors than Marte has (and that was before he went down with the recent hamstring injury, something like 14 errors for Kouzmanoff and 16 errors for Marte in roughly the same number of games if I remember correctly.)

After having Boone and Broussard at the corner positions for the past few years, you would have to think Kouzmanoff would be an upgrade over either of those two (despite Broussard's career year; there's no proof he will be able to duplicate this year again; plus, if I recall correctly, isn't this Broussard's FA year coming up this offseason?  If that is the case, who knows if that is the reason he is doing so well this year and he could falter again after getting a sizable contract in the offseason.)  

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 11, 2006 7:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Thanks; agreed on Head!
Alchemist, I think you're being a little hard on Kouzmanoff's numbers.  When a guy's overall numbers are so otherwordly, you can't evaluate it the same way you would in the big leagues.  A BABIP of 450 might mean an extraordinary degree of good luck, but in the minors, it can also mean that you're just towering above the competition.

I'm impressed that his walk rate has remained close to .10 -- that's rare for someone hitting over 400, because who has time to walk when you're crushing line drives in almost every plate appearance?  Or are you going to try to tell me that Kouzmanoff has been beating out a bunch of infield singles?

PECOTA's projections are based on major league numbers -- i.e., his 90th percentile projection is for an 815 OPS in the majors.  That is not at all out of line with the way he's punishing Double-A pitchers.

I agree that, due to his age and level, you can't call him a special bat.  But you can call him a bat that probably would play decently in the bigs.

by Jay on Jul 11, 2006 6:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
MARTE WON A HR CONTEST LAST NIGHT!!!

by Tribe Alive on Jul 11, 2006 12:17 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
I know it's very, very early in his career, but I'm looking forward to seeing F-Gute's "prodigious defense."

Right now, he looks like as much of a piker in the field as the rest of these guys.

by JulioBernazard on Jul 11, 2006 2:29 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
On a related topic ... just saw this on BaseballAmerica.com from a few days ago:

In other injury news, the Indians essentially lost outfielder Nick Weglarz for the remainder of the year after the 2005 third-round pick had surgery today for a broken hamate bone in his right hand. Weglarz, who the Indians expected to push the 18-year-old to low Class A Lake County to start this season, originally fractured the bone in spring training, but with intensified activity, the fracture needed surgery to be corrected. Weglarz played in just one game in the Rookie-level Gulf Coast League in late June, going 0-for-2 with a pair of strikeouts. He is expected to miss 6-to-8 weeks.

I had been wondering where Weglarz was.  We drafted and signed him out of Canada last year, where at age 17 he was considered the country's best draft prospect.  Assuming his hand heals properly, he'll be a pretty good candidate to make this list in a year, still just 19 in Low-A.

by Jay on Jul 12, 2006 2:18 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Exciting Prospects: Mid-2006 Update
The guys at baseballanalysts.com have posted their top 75 prospects at the all-star break. No players currently in the majors are counted. They list 5 prospects now in the tribe's system.

  1. Marte
  2. Miller
  3. Crowe
  4. Lofgren
  5. A Cabrera

by oxforddave on Jul 12, 2006 4:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Thanks - I wondered where Weglarz was at too!
Hello Jay,

Thanks for the info. - I had been looking for Weglarz in the box scores, and outside of that 0 for 2 night, I had not seen him.

I heard Weglarz had trouble with breaking pitches because he hadn't seen that many quality ones, but (I think it was BA) they said that once Weglarz figures them out, look out - he should be a good prospect.

If I recall correctly, there was some stat that he outdid Drennen in last year at Burlington - I don't remember if he drew more walks or if he hit 8 HRs in fewer at-bats, but I noticed there was some important stat that he outdid Drennen in, which I thought was impressive since Weglarz is over a year younger than Drennen, plus wasn't as highly touted as Drennen coming out of high school.

Hopefully, Weglarz can return healthy and ready to go, if not this year (doubtful,) in the Developmental League and next year.

Again, thanks for the info - greatly appreciated!

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 12, 2006 4:54 PM EDT   0 recs

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