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A Flaw in The Plan

I think Peralta's defense has exposed a pretty serious shortcoming in the front office's strategy.

Just anecdotally, even apart from last night's error, you can see that Peralta is simply not a good defensive shortstop -- maybe not even an average one. And that obviously prompted the deal for AstroCab, who by all accounts is a plus-plus defender at either MI position, although he is at least a year, maybe two, away from the big-league roster.

Additionally, Marte is clearly a subpar defender at 3rd. I have not had a chance to watch him and I know error totals are far, far from the whole story, but he's making an error about once every four games. That's bad, folks.

A left side of the infield featuring Marte and Peralta would be a disaster defensively.

So what do you do? The only other position Peralta has played with any regularity besides SS is 3B. Move him to 3B, where he is at least less of a liability than he is at SS, and where do you put Marte? 1B being Garko's spot next season (I believe he's earned it, and they're both RH batters, and from what I've read Garko would be a better glove at first), the only real option is LF.

So now you've at least minimized the defensive problems in the infield, but that leaves two gaping holes at SS and 2B. I believe starting in 2008 AstroCab and Eider Torres could make a pretty nice MI combo (with the gloves at least, I doubt either will hit much at the major league level) but it would take some serious dealing by Shapiro to fill the middle infield for next year.

So what is the problem with the FO's strategy that I mentioned above? They have, at every opportunity, placed a premium on finding the best offense possible at each position, while almost completely ignoring defense. We have heard this argument in defense (so to speak) of keeping Martinez, Peralta, and Marte at their positions, even to the point of giving up a plus defender in Crisp to obtain Marte. Yes, Martinez's bat at C probably outweighs the cost of the steals he gives up, and yes, Peralta's offense (which I am not worried about in the long run) makes him a valuable shortstop.

But the problem with this analysis is that it looks at each of these cases on an individual basis, and what we're seeing is that defensive problems at multiple positions can combine and multiply and amplify each other -- and can clearly have adverse effects on our pitching, as we've seen recently with CC, Byrd, and last night, Lee.

So Shapiro has backed himself into a corner with this roster, and he needs to find a way to add some defensive prowess to it for next year. The only obviously open spot to do this is 2B, and I am sure they are hoping AstroCab's bat is good enough that they can carry him in this position. But even if that works out, the left side of the infield is still another defensive disaster waiting to happen unless he gets creative.

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Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Superb post. Especially about how these effects multiply. I liked the Byrd and Johnson signings, but combining their lack of holding runners, and Martinez's arm makes a steal a freebie for opponents. If the FO is as smart as we give them credit for, you think they would have considered this deadly combination. I admit, I missed it as a fan.

I've been concerned about the left side defense ever since they acquired Marte (I never have been convinced about his defense), but I never expected the prospects to look so bleak. Hopefully this is the darkness before the dawn, rather than the darkness before going completely black.

This being said, I think the defense will look better from here on out. The loss of Johnson will definitely make it look statistically better. But to above average? I don't know how they get there from here.

I've been hoping that a potential outfield of Crowe, Sizemore, and Gutierrez would negate future infield difficulties. (Please, please do not move Crowe to 2B, this team needs outfielders). Gutierrez has been highly touted, but the last two days he has been a mess.    

by oxforddave on Jul 7, 2006 12:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Shapiro admitted Chicago and Detroit are
winning because of pitching

mid-market team cannot emphsize offense
at expense of pitching and defense

by palcal on Jul 7, 2006 2:39 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
A quick look at the overall numbers (team-by-team stats) indicates that good pitching usually wins games.

by emd2k3 on Jul 7, 2006 3:14 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Boone and Peralta have combined for 26 errors.  Guess the total between Carlos Guillen and Brandon Inge:  

by thetravishalffull on Jul 7, 2006 3:26 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
I'll just come out with it:

Boone, Peralta, Belliard:  32 errors.

Inge, Guillen, Polanco:  32 errors.  

by thetravishalffull on Jul 7, 2006 3:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that error totals don't tell the whole story. Inge, Guillen, and Polanco all have ZR's significantly higher than their Indians counterparts. Inge in particular is a phenomenal defender, and Polanco's ZR is highest among AL second basemen (Belliard is next to last), just as Shelton's is highest among AL first baseman (with Broussard also next-to-last).

BTW I'm using ESPN's ZR numbers, which may or may not be correct but that's all I could find.

But you seem to be missing my point, that if just one of your infielders is below average defensively, the others can probably cover for him at least somewhat. When 2 or more of them are below average (and, according to ZR at least, every single one of the Indians infielders is below average), the effect is much, much worse.

by mrich on Jul 7, 2006 4:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
I'm not missing your point.  I'm simply providing an interesting stat.  

But I def disagree with you on Marte.  

by thetravishalffull on Jul 7, 2006 4:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Peralta's FRAA is still at 8. He's been a lot better than most people give him credit for.

by Joe. on Jul 7, 2006 4:12 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Peralta lacks range to his left, that is where a lot of his errors come from that are throwing errors, a good def 1st baseman would fix some of our problems.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jul 7, 2006 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
There's significant skepticism about BP's defensive stats among other bleeding-edge stat folk.  None of the other defensive grading systems think Peralta is particularly good.

by Jay on Jul 7, 2006 6:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Watching a game the other day, I wondered how much Belliard's short rightfield positioning affects both his and Jhonny's defensive stats.  Any thoughts from anyone who knows how some of these stats are calculated?

by APV on Jul 7, 2006 6:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Excellent post, mrich!
Hello mrich, and welcome if you're new! :-)

Great post - I brought up something similar (though not as detailed as your post) within the last few weeks, being concerned about the organizational philosophy of acquiring great offensive players, but either ignoring, or more likely, miscalculating the defensive abilities of these great offensive players.  Martinez and Peralta come to mind based on their play this year.

In my opinion, for this team to improve, they must pay more attention and evaluate the defensive abilities of these players and see if their best positions defensively are at the positions they are currently at.  I'm not sure whether that is the case for either Victor or Peralta.

I know Victor's offense is great at C, but if he can't throw anyone out, and he has never been more than average (to my knowledge) during his professional career, even in the Minors, will that negate his great offense?  This year, he has really fallen off - the question is, will he rebound next year to around average or is this Victor's "average" of throwing out runners now (i.e. he's lost strength in his arm or has some sort of problem with his throwing mechanics that he can't correct and will remain a poor, below-average throwing catcher.)

Same thing with Peralta - it's nice to see his bat finally come alive again, but he bobbles too many balls he should handle and his range seems limited to me.  We essentially sacrificed defense for offense, and this year, it has really come back to burn us.  

We've given up 35 unearned runs this year and when you have a pitching staff outside of C.C. who is not going to strike out a ton of guys, you need to have that defense be at least average, if not above-average or better, to be able to win the close ballgames because most of our pitchers rely on our defense to make the plays to get the outs most of the time.

Half the time, our defense sabotages our pitching, turning a close game into a blowout like it did the last two nights.  Even with our offense, we're going to have a hard time coming back from every deficit our defense puts us in, not to mention doing it against guys like Mike Mussina and Randy Johnson.  

Just my 5 cents.

Again, great post, mrich!  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 7, 2006 4:54 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Couldn't disagree more.  Look - you move Jhonny to third.  You let Belliard go.  You move Vic to first.  You stick 3 defensive whizzes in there.  Now you're getting league average offense at 1B, 3B, and RF, above average at CF and DH, and below average at 2B, SS, C, and LF.  Our offense is our sole strength, why screw it up too?

It's an absolute miracle that the Astros made the WS last year, and you saw how Chicago dismantled them.  Between Ausmus, Everett, the pitcher spot/Bagwell, and Tavares, that was 4 automatic outs.  That meant for them to have any chance to win, they had to allow 2 runs or less and hope either Berkman or Ensberg came up big.  I might try that strategy with Clemens, Oswalt, and Pettite, but not with what we have now.

If there was any chance Marte could play LF, why would the Braves have traded him?   We talked about this when the trade happened.

by mkwng on Jul 7, 2006 6:05 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
You misunderstand -- I'm not really advocating for those changes, I'm just pointing out how the FO's emphasis on offense has put the team in a very tough position.

It's an absolute miracle that the Astros made the WS last year

Um, they made it to the World Series, which is a damn site better than the Indians did, and it would be an insult to the 2005 Astros to compare the 2006 Indians to them. Besides, looking at this team, how can you say what they are doing is working?

Let me state, I think moving Vic from first and Peralta from SS are bad ideas. But -- BUT -- I think if you're going to carry these guys in these positions, you need to commit to having plus defenders around the rest of the infield. The problem Shapiro & co. have to figure out is how to do that when they're pretty much committed to Marte at 3B (who I don't believe is particularly good defensively, despite his rep in the lower minors) and don't have any obvious options for 2B or 1B.

by mrich on Jul 7, 2006 7:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
How did I misunderstand?  You said:
So what do you do? The only other position Peralta has played with any regularity besides SS is 3B. Move him to 3B, where he is at least less of a liability than he is at SS, and where do you put Marte? 1B being Garko's spot next season (I believe he's earned it, and they're both RH batters, and from what I've read Garko would be a better glove at first), the only real option is LF.

So now you've at least minimized the defensive problems in the infield, but that leaves two gaping holes at SS and 2B. I believe starting in 2008 AstroCab and Eider Torres could make a pretty nice MI combo (with the gloves at least, I doubt either will hit much at the major league level) but it would take some serious dealing by Shapiro to fill the middle infield for next year.


But you're not "advocating those changes?"

What information do you have about Marte's defense that the writers and scouts don't?

by mkwng on Jul 7, 2006 7:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
I was pointing out the hoops the FO will have to jump through if they want to drastically improve our infield defense, given that they're committed to Peralta and Marte. You've never heard of a devil's advocate?

What information do you have about Marte's defense that the writers and scouts don't

Google "Andy Marte defense" and spend 10 minutes or so clicking around. I guarantee for every positive review you see of his defense (from a scout or just from somebody who's seen him play) you'll find at least one negative. I've admitted I've never seen him play, but I do see his atrocious error rate right there in black and white. And look, Victor Martinez was once rated the best defensive catcher in the EL, so you'll have to excuse me if I discount the opinions of the low-minors scouts and coaches that had Marte rated so highly.

by mrich on Jul 7, 2006 8:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Sure, why take the opinions of professional scouts and coaches seriously?  After all, who needs so-called "experts" when you have direct access to a page of stats that shows how many errors everyone has committed?

by Jay on Jul 8, 2006 12:34 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Ok, I have the benefit (or would it be detriment?) of not getting to watch the Tribe play.  All I've got is what I read here and in the other media.  What I sense on this site, which is beginning to also emerge in much of the local media, is a sense of Chicken Little and the sky falling.  Maybe you're right that there is a big gaping flaw in the organizational plan.  I just don't see it as necessarily a fatal flaw.

Almost everything I've read on Marte says that he's at least average (if not potentially above average) at 3B.  Don't forget that he came to two new organizations within a few months touted as The 3B Prospect of the given trades.  He was obviously pressing at the beginning of the year.  I think it's important to consider that maybe he was pressing in every aspect of his game.  He's been hailed as an improvement on Boone at the very least since day one.

While Vic has never been stellar at defense, he's never been as bad as this season.  Is he regressing to what his norm really is?  Is he truly this bad?  I just can't believe that he is.  Does he need work?  Of course.  Should this `work' continue during the offseason in some fashion or another.  I'd say yes, but then again I've never been paid to be a coach.  I just know that we talk so much here about regression to the mean and I think we forget that sometimes players play below their skills as well as above them.  In the long run maybe Vic goes to 1B, I just can't see them giving up on the offense at C in the next few years.

I am most worried about Peralta.  There's no logic to it, just gut feeling.  I have no doubts he is and will continue to be a Major League level player.  I just don't know that he's meant to be a SS.  Does moving him to 2B solve any of the problems he exhibits?  If going to the left leads to throwing errors for him, will shorter throws solve anything?  I'd like to hope so.  Maybe with improvements to 1B defense his lapses would be better hidden.

Moving Peralta to 2B would then allow the organization to fill the SS spot with a defensive specialist, whether it be via internal means (AstroCab) or a free agent.  It also wouldn't force the Tribe to give up too much since Peralta's offensive numbers are presumably going to be high for any MI position.  This also allows a still very young infield (which might be prone to more errors) to have a solid base.  I think many of us are only know beginning to realize just how truly special Omar was (and still is).

Good pitching and defense win championships, this has been proven over and over again.  I just don't think that switching direction drastically will lead us to any better result.  As mkwng pointed out, you make too many drastic changes our strengths become average positions.   I firmly believe that doing so will get us no closer to the World Series.

One of the things I love about Shapiro and the FO is that they lay out a plan and are very deliberate in following it.  Switching gears every time something goes awry leads us down a path of the Royals, Rockies or DRays.  I share the frustrations of everyone here, I just don't think that abandoning The Plan will provide any solutions.  However, working within its framework might.

by mjmarble on Jul 8, 2006 8:41 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
The Rocks are a LOT closer to winning their divisions than we are.

by JulioBernazard on Jul 8, 2006 11:11 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Duly noted.  This is what I get for not paying attention to the NL West or checking the standings before I post.

Did Hell freeze over and I miss the memo?

by mjmarble on Jul 8, 2006 12:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
You can't be blamed -- it's been a quick turnaround from last year to this year. And they're pitching very well.

by JulioBernazard on Jul 8, 2006 8:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
Even Hart knew he had to have a good Def SS if Peralta can not make improvements in the second half we need to start looking in the off season for a SS.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jul 8, 2006 11:55 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
You are seriously kidding yourself if you think Hart wouldn't take 30-HR potential over a Gold Glove, at any position including shortstop and catcher.

by Jay on Jul 8, 2006 2:38 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: A Flaw in The Plan
That is what he said when he was here, he did not mind giving def at 2nd but not SS. I still thing Peralta can be a average to good SS, But he needs to work at it the rest of the season, and I'm not talking about his hitting. He's got 4 more errors than he did in 2003 in about the same number of games.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jul 8, 2006 3:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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