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Bullpen Breakdown

I'm curious what everyone thinks about the 2007 bullpen.  Obviously one of the big disappointments of 2006, nonetheless some interesting raw material there to lay the foundation for 2007.  

There's a lot to filter through for the rest of the season and into next year:

No set closer for 2007 (and not much in terms of free agent options)
Can Betancourt/Cabrera straighten themselves out from their WBC-induced comas this season?
Will Matt Miller be healthy again (scheduled to pitch again in late Aug/early Sept?)
A lot of fringy guys who (I think) are out of options next year in Stanford, Guthrie, Davis, and Brown.

I don't even know who the absolutes are at this point, beyond Betancourt and Carmona.  Cabrera has been pretty bad this year, but he's out of options already so he has to fix things on the big club.  Perez seems on track to lock down a spot if he just keeps doing what he's doing.  Mujica looks great but he's got options remaining.  

Even if they don't go outside the organization to get a "proven closer", it seems like the front office would have to add at least one free agent reliever with somewhat of a track record (unless the Howry contract is the new standard for decent set up men).  But then again, everyone right now is looking for bullpen arms and there's not a lot out there.  

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Possibly Mota if he has straightened himself out!
Hello cheech99,

As Jay and I had talked about in another thread, it could be possible the Indians could resign Mota to a cheaper contract.  That may sound "funny" or outrageous at first based on what he has done this year, but if today's outing was any indication (I know, it's only one outing,) Mota may finally be getting his command back and he might be worth signing to provide some veteran leadership for this bullpen next year, especially since many of the components will be young (most under 30 by several years.)

I've noticed Mota was much more around the plate today than in any other outing this year - even the balls he threw were just off the plate.  If he can do that consistently over the rest of the year, he could regain the dominant form he showed with the Dodgers.  

He would be worth keeping if that was the case as either the set-up guy or even as next year's closer, since it seems unlikely Wickman will be back, Cabrera will need additional time before he could possibly inherit the closer's role, and it's not certain yet whether Carmona belongs in the bullpen or the rotation.  Mota might be the perfect guy to keep the position "warm" until the future closer emerges, whoever that might be.

Granted, that's presuming Mota builds on what he did today, but if he can do that, I think there's a decent chance he could be in the Indians' bullpen again next year, plus he'd have the most experience as a closer in that bullpen with the guys who are in there now or anyone else who comes up from the Minors, so him becoming next year's closer isn't as far of a stretch as it might first appear.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 9, 2006 7:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Bullpen
I did see the exchange between you two and think the "buying low" on Mota's junk bond status is an intriguing thought.  

We're certainly not going to get any trade value so if Mota does end up having a good 3 1/2 months, is of course further removed from arm problems, it could be a big payoff.  I'm not sure what we're talking about... something like 1 year $1.5 million?  

by cheech99 on Jul 9, 2006 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was thinking along those lines!
Hello cheech99,

Yes, I was thinking along those lines - say $1.5 million or so.  I don't know if a club option could be added to that contract or not, but that could be a possibility as well.

But, I'd certainly look into keeping Mota if he keeps displaying the command and stuff he showed today.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 9, 2006 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
My only question is if there is any chance Cabrera can become the closer now with his struggles. Outside of the first week of the season, he has been  decent at least.

by Joe. on Jul 9, 2006 8:04 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

The WBC probably had something to do w/that!
Hello JRam,

Keep in mind that the WBC is likely the main reason why Cabrera started so poorly this season.  In essence, he didn't really have a Spring Training, not one that you normally go through whether you're in the Majors or Minors.

As a result, I think Cabrera has been trying to catch up all year, with mixed results.  I'd certainly keep him as an option for the closer's role, especially if Carmona is inserted back into the rotation (a possibility, though he's certainly a possibility for the bullpen and maybe even as a closer now as well.)

It's always nice to have multiple options - I think Mota, Cabrera, and Carmona could all be closer options next year, presuming Mota is back of course.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 9, 2006 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
2007 I believe will be the pen we've got now --  minus wickman add either a significant FA or acquired proven closer or Andrew Brown/Tony Sipp/Jeremy Guthrie. Mota really has pitched well as of late. Don't forget how well he started, and when you look at his game log, he really only had 3 or 4 horrific outings, and those were in may, otherwise he's been pretty solid.

6th-Cabrera, TBD
7th-Mota, Betancourt
8th- Perez, Mujica
Closer- Carmona

by brad on Jul 9, 2006 8:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
Andy Brown and Jeremy Guthrie are also likely to find spots in the bullpen.  I have trouble believing the Indians won't make a strong effort to find a backend guy and/or a lefty for next season.

It's maddening to see that the two relievers targeted by Shapiro, Ryan and Hoffman, have been absolutely lights-out this season.  That said, the 7th and 8th innings have been bigger problems for us than the 9th.

That's basically exactly the opposite of what everyone expected.  Our bullpen was supposed to have a questionable closer but terrific depth of quality.

by Jay on Jul 9, 2006 9:58 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
Does it look like they are trying to groom Davis for the closer? I could be wrong but it looks like he is only pitching in the 9th inn.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jul 9, 2006 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
I've been writing Davis off in my own mind, but it is true that he's been pretty lights-out in eight appreances in Buffalo.  It's just hard to believe he's anything close to an effective big-league pitcher, having watched him for some four years now off and on.

by Jay on Jul 9, 2006 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
jason davis will never make it with the indians. if he makes it at all it will be with another club when we finally run out of options a la b-phillips. i don't think he can do it though, you'd think with a high 90's fastball he'd be putting guys away but as we've all seen, it just doesn't happen

by brad on Jul 9, 2006 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
Just looked at potential free agents at MLB4U, and the reliever cupboard is awfully bare.

by mkwng on Jul 9, 2006 10:01 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

All the more reason why they may keep Mota!
Hello mkwng,

That's all the more reason why they may keep Mota if they can get him straightened out and he pitches well - how many relievers can dominate like he can when he's on and throw 96-97 MPH with regularity?

Jay - I agree with you - have serious doubts about Jason Davis; by now, you think he would have shown some consistency at the ML level.  Maybe he gets one more try up here later this year (unless he's shipped off as part of a deadline deal,) but isn't he out of options next year as well?  

It seems his development time is quickly coming to a close as well and the Indians will have to make a decision on him - right now, it's probably likely they won't keep him either come next year.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 1:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: All the more reason why they may keep Mota!
This is Davis's 1st year as a RP, before we write him off, lets hope the FO gives him a couple of months to see what he can do, he has better stuff than Mota.  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jul 10, 2006 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: All the more reason why they may keep Mota!
I agree that JD has good stuff. But, with  bullpen personnel, especially the back end, what's between the ears is as important the talent. And over the years, I haven't felt that JD can focus on the moment and shake off what happened either 5 minutes or the day before very well. Mota has proven he can do that. Though with Mota he may be irreparably damaged by his last 2 years of pitching.

by zigsmom on Jul 10, 2006 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
My hunch is that the bullpen will look very different next year, although I don't know if the results will be very different.  My best guess:

Long and Middle Relief - Davis, Mujica, Stanford, & a bargain-basement FA/invitee.
Setup Men - Mota & a Free Agent
Closer - Carmona

Closer - Carmona's the only natural choice right now; I don't think this is the Tribe's first choice for him, or for the position, but if they get priced out of the market again, that's where they'll be.  Darkhorse: Wickman redux.

Setup - I agree with Jay that they should buy low on Mota and play the percentages that better times are ahead.  I think they'll also spend a little money on someone with a track record here.

Long & Middle - Look for Davis to do just enough in AAA, September, and the Spring to get one last chance.  Mujica looks good and should get quality innings in 07.  Stanford - this is my wishful thinking that they'll turn him into a lefty specialist, where I think he could be effective and stay healthy.

I think Betancourt & Cabrera are pitching themselves off the team.  Betancourt's flopped when he's been needed most this year, and I think the whole steroids thing doesn't put him in anyone's good graces.  Cabrera - 06 hasn't been about a rough start or the WBC; when you have a 6 1/2 ERA in July, you've been bad all year.  He has struggled in every month, in every situation.  I know as of March he was the 'Future Closer' but I think he needs a significant turnaround this year and a strong 07 Spring or the Tribe will take their chances waiving him.  You just can't hide/carry someone who pitches that poorly.

by G Village on Jul 10, 2006 8:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bullpen Breakdown
As long as I'm prattling on, I forgot to mention:  Guthrie and Perez.  I pray that they'll stop fooling around with Guthrie in the bullpen and let him succeed or fail as a starter.  They could let him battle Sowers for the 5th spot next Spring with the thought that Sowers will still have options.  Perez:  I like him a lot, and he's been a bright spot in the pen this year, but I think the Tribe rightly sees him as a starter.  I think he'll be the "sixth or seventh" starter waiting in the wings at AAA in 07.

by G Village on Jul 10, 2006 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Disagree on Cabrera!
Hello G Village,

Please excuse the length of this post and bear with me - thanks! :-)

I appreciate your opinion and your analysis; however, I disagree with you on Cabrera.

Admittedly, he's had a poor year, but as I mentioned, I think the WBC has made him try to catch up the entire year - he really did not have a Spring Training; it's a bit similar to what Adam Miller went through last year when he missed all of Spring Training, then came back late in the year, and put up numbers that weren't even close to what he had put up in 2004 at High-A - his K/IP were significantly down, his H/IP were significantly up, etc.  

Granted, he had the injury, but it's not like he was throwing in the 80s; he still was pitching in the 90s, but the results weren't even remotely close to what he did at that level the previous year.

No, my guess is Cabrera will be on the '07 Indians, partly because he is out of options, but more so because he will have a full Spring Training to work with the coaches and such, which I believe will help him regain the form he showed in 2005.

His type of arm doesn't grow on trees.  Plus, from what I've heard, the free agent reliever market is very thin; I can definitely see them resigning Mota, but I'm not sure there is anyone else out there who would have a better ceiling or better ability than Cabrera.

No, I think the Indians will give him another opportunity next year; heck, they stayed with Jason Davis for 4 years; this is the first year Cabrera has struggled, and the WBC could be a legitimate reason why he has struggled - it's too early to give up on him - after all, he's only 24 and will be 25 for the 2007 season!  I'll be shocked if Cabrera is not part of the 2007 Indians bullpen.

As for Betancourt, that's debatable, but again, the WBC could have upset him for this year as well; plus, if you've noticed lately, Wedge has not used him that much - it's mostly been Carmona, Perez, and Wickman.  Betancourt has gotten sporadic work, which probably has also not helped him.

His departure from the 2007 Indians is more possible than Cabrera's, but again, is there a better reliever out there that we can sign?  I'm not so sure there is.  So I wouldn't be surprised if he's back next year either.

Regarding Davis, I don't know if the Indians would prefer to keep him or Andrew Brown; both have been inconsistent (Davis in the Majors, Brown in the Minors - he had a great year with his command in 2005, not so in 2006.)  

However, the Indians already know what they are getting with Davis - he succeeds for a few outings, then goes right back to collapsing and giving up big innings.  They don't know exactly what Brown will do in the Majors.  Plus, Brown is 1 year younger than Davis, so I'm not sure which route they might go - it may depend on whether they can trade one of them for something.

As for Perez, I was hoping he would be a starter as well, but with his great performances out of the bullpen and the lack of a dominant lefty, I'm not sure Perez will return to the rotation.  

If anything, Stanford might be likelier to compete for the fifth spot (along with Guthrie, who I would prefer to have start as well since he did quite well at Buffalo earlier this year for an extended period,) since Stanford showed he could do quite well as a starter.  From the limited outings he's had as a reliever, he hasn't done as well (sounds a bit like Sipp, who has been better as a starter than a reliever as well.)

It should be very interesting to see what happens in 2007, but I fully expect Cabrera to be on the 2007 Indians.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 10, 2006 9:49 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Disagree on Cabrera!
You're probably right on Cabrera - his potential, coupled with a thin free agent market, may well mean that he could tank all year and still have a spot on the team next year.  I just don't know what you do with a reliever who gives up 2 runs every three innings.

Re: Brown, yes, his walk rate is just astonishing, and he doesn't seem to have improved through the course of the year at Buffalo.  Until that changes, I don't see him in the bigs.

I hope you're right on Perez - I think he's looked great out of the pen.  Stanford just doesn't seem to have the chops to start anymore after all the injuries (so-so AAA numbers), so I feel like his only chance to stick will be to reinvent himself as a reliever.

Thanks for your thoughts - there's something about bullpen personnel & management that I've always found especially interesting.  But that's me.

by G Village on Jul 11, 2006 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Disagree on Cabrera!
Jason Stanford?  I won't be surprised if he's put on waivers by the end of the season.  His numbers aren't anything special, he has a history of injury including this season, and -- hello -- he's going to turn THIRTY in the offeseason.  I can't see us letting any real prospect go unprotected in order to keep him around.  And yes, I am aware that more than two years ago, he started TWO GAMES for us and did a nice job.

by Jay on Jul 11, 2006 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're very welcome, G Village!
Hello G Village,

You're welcome, and thank you for your thoughts also! :-)  

Yes, I agree that bullpen personnel and management can be extremely interesting, especially in regards to who stays, who goes, how they determine whether one would make a better reliever than a starter, etc.

I think having an actual Spring Training may help Cabrera, as he'll get more hands-on training and instruction from the coaches that will hopefully help him rediscover his mechanics that made him successful in 2005.

Regarding Stanford, I'd have to agree with Jay as well - probably the best case scenario for Stanford would be if he was competing for the 5th starter spot next spring, but I forgot about the impending 40-man roster crunch coming up (don't know how I forgot that,) so the only way I could see Stanford returning as an Indian next year is via an invite to Spring Training, and with Sowers, Guthrie, and possibly Carmona competing for a spot in the rotation, along with 3 or 4 veteran starters likely returning, it wouldn't surprise me if he is with another team next year.

If he had more options, he might be someone worth keeping around for depth, but as it is, it's likely he will be let go to protect some legitimate prospects who are coming up, such as Tony Sipp, who will need to be protected this offseason.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 11, 2006 7:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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