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Trades, leverage and value

Let's roll back the calendar a few days and talk about some trade deadline stuff.  Two of the most interesting stories of this year's trade season involved National League players — I know, boring, it's like talking about the CFL, right? — but bear with me, and I'll get around to talking about the Indians' trades eventually.

This past weekend started with a rush of stories about, of all things, a waiver claim, as some unidentified team claimed Andrew Jones [cough cough Red Sox cough] from the Braves.  As the story explains, now that the Braves had put Jones on waivers and another team had claimed him, the Braves essentially had three options:

  • Work out a trade with the claiming team.
  • Withdraw Jones from waivers, which would prevent the Braves from trading Jones at any point this season.
  • Accept the claim outright, sending both Jones and his contract to the claiming team for nothing.

Actually, the article says the Braves only had two options.  It doesn't mention the third option, because it would be considered unthinkable in this case.  But after all the squawking about Bobby Abreu last week, you have to wonder just what really is unthinkable in the 2006 baseball economy, where even teams like the Braves and Phillies are spending a lot of time thinking about their cash commitments for next season.

Just take a look at this column by Mark Bradley [reg. req.] of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution.  Bradley writes:

The Braves have a decision to make. Chances are, they've already made it. Chances are, they won't trade Andruw Jones -- this month. But they might in November, or next July.  Assuming Jones goes nowhere this weekend after being claimed on waivers, the Braves will only have tabled the greater issue.

But Bradley is wrong.  In not trading Jones now, the Braves almost certainly have not just "tabled" the question of trading Jones.  They very likely have ended it, permanently, by passing on the last opportunity to get full value for Jones.  And in fact, odds are they already made that decision in the last week of July, when their options were more or less unlimited.  Now that the Braves have withdrawn Jones from waivers, his trade value plummets considerably and permanently.  Jones will assume full trade veto rights as of August 15 as a "10 and 5" player, and since he can no longer be traded this season, the situation is now set.  The Braves no longer have 29 potential trading partners for Jones, they have as many as Jones wants to give them, which may be ten, or three, or one, or zero.

Just look at the Phillies situation with Abreu, who had trade veto powers not because he was a 10-and-5, but rather because the prior GM was something of a moron.  Abreu decided to limit the Phillies' market to two teams, and in fact extracted a $1.5 million payment even to allow that much.  There were few enough teams with even a slight interest in paying Abreu to begin with.  According to PECOTA, Abreu is expected to be worth about seven marginal wins between now and the end of 2007, when his contract expires.  According to their "MORP" stat, that translates economically to about $12 million worth of big-league production based on recent free agent contracts.  Yet Abreu is owed at least $21.4 million.

So whatever Abreu is worth as a player, his contract is worth almost $9.4 million in the negative ? minus the value-reducing effect of Abreu's no-trade clause, which carries over to his new team and, as we have seen, is worth at least $1.5 million.

As any GM will tell you, teams don't trade players, they trade contracts.  In fact, as a general rule, here are the four main things being exchanged with each player in a midseason trade:

  1. The player's on-field value for the current season.  Fairly predictable but still a crapshoot.
  2. The player's on-field value for any later years of his contract (or reserve years).  This includes his upside and downside, factoring in the odds of this particular player actually reaching either extreme, his median projectable performance, his durability and injury risk.
  3. The economic value of the player's contract.  Based on his on-field value, is he underpaid or overpaid, and by how much?
  4. The value of acquisition, of not having to compete or spend any further to acquire a comparable player in the free agent or trade market.  This is fairly low for any two-month rental player, and for players who are only marginally better than replacement level, but should be considered for others.  (Some might think of this as the inverse of opportunity cost.)

(I've deliberately left out an oft-cited factor with regard to two-month rental players, which is the idea that the acquiring team can play footsie with the player and his agent for two months, giving the team a leg up over other teams in free agent negotiations.  Unless the player is being traded to St. Louis, where they actually cheer for players mired in slumps, I regard this as virtually worthless, no matter how endlessly other writers prattle on about it.  Purely from a business standpoint, it makes no sense for the player to allow this to affect negotiations, and it's not like these guys don't have agents.)

So the Phillies had in Abreu a player of (1) some this-season on-field value (about $3.5 million), (2) some future on-field value (about $8.5 million), and (3) $9.4 million of negative contract value.  His acquisition value is worth considering, as he is a player of significant on-field value and not a two-month rental, but there were other comparable players also avaialble, such as Carlos Lee and Alfonso Soriano.  Considering all angles, the strange truth is that Abreu was simply not that valuable of a player, and there was virtually no market for him.  Yet many writers have ripped into Phillies GM Pat Gillick for getting so little in trade for him.

These writers know about the terrible contract, of course, and they know about Abreu's trade veto rights.  But just as the columnist Bradley above treats Jones' trade veto rights as a parenthetical detail (literally), critics of the Abreu trade fail to see Abreu's bad contract and trade veto rights for what they really are — not tiny details with a little influence over the situation, but critical details that completely transform the dynamics of any possible trade situation, for either Jones or Abreu.  After all, it's likely that no team but the Yankees would have even claimed Abreu on waivers.  How can it also be true, then, that Gillick should have gotten more for him?

The fact that a smart GM like Gillick got so little for Abreu — the fact that Gillick took this deal — should be considered a powerful illustration of how un-valuable Abreu really was.  Unlike Scheurholz, Gillick could have walked away and still been in the same situation in the offseason, but $4.4 million lighter in the pocket. He didn't foresee himself getting an offer $4.4 million better — nor should he have.  The fact that so many writers fail to take note of this — instead viewing the Abreu trade as evidence of incompetence on the part of the most successful GM of this era — indicates some combination of arrogance and cluelessness on their part.

Even Chris Kahrl of Baseball Prospectus, generally not known for either of those qualities, nevertheless tumbles headlong into all the obvious (and wrong) conclusions:

... by failing to get value for Abreu, Gillick has failed in his responsibility to help his club, and has perhaps betrayed a fundamental disinterest in the team he inherited from Ed Wade ... all Gillick got from a major move is a major-league-ready lefty, three guys who fit right in as far as populating a farm system longer on hype than talent, and financial freedom.

Kahrl calls Gillick a failure, and in fact speculates that he has a damaging bias affecting his judgment.  Yet she makes no attempt to construct a plausible scenario where he or anybody else could have done any better, given the circumstances.  Kahrl falls into the trap of calling this a "major move" — I can only assume because Abreu is what we would all call a "major player."  But while this may have been a "major move" on the two teams' balance sheets, perhaps even a "major upgrade" on the field for the Yankees, it was not the trade of a major asset on the part of the Phillies.  It was the trade of a major asset attached to a major liability, and the net is only a minor asset.

Some writers went one step further to proclaim the great value of Cory Lidle, a mediocre NL starter who could not crack the Indians rotation even if he played for free.  In the final analysis, Abreu and the contract bolted to his bat simply were not worth very much, and not very much is about what Gillick got for them.  Once Andruw Jones gets vested with trade veto rights, he won't be worth much more than Abreu — some, but not much — and smart GMs know this.  So I'll betcha Scheurholz has already made up his mind about Jones.


Which brings us, finally, to the Indians' trades, which understandably were greeted with less fanfare than Abreu's, or even the Jones waiver claim.  Yet the same basic value concepts apply.  As we all critique the bounty our GM dragged home in exchange for our jettisoned veterans, it's only natural that we overvalue our own guys, even the ones we're happy to be rid of.  But just like the wildly media-overvalued Jones and Abreu (and Soriano while we're at it), each of the recently traded Indians had significant flaws in their overall value portfolio.

  • As two-month rentals, Wickman, Perez and Belliard had no future value to their acquiring teams.
  • Perez and Belliard had virtually no acquisition value.
  • Wickman had trade veto rights, limiting his market.
  • Due to a shaky first half, Wickman's current value was also questionable, and he was owed $2 million.
  • Broussard has questionable future value.

On top of those drawbacks, the fact is that none of these four could be considered a lock to play much above replacement level for the rest of this season.  There was no Bartolo Colon for Shapiro to trade this season, and you could argue there wasn't even a Chuck Finley.  Given that not one of these players was without significant blemish as a tradeable asset, the Indians' haul of two young major leaguers and at least two legitimate prospects could be considered a very impressive result.

Amusingly, some fans have managed to be disappointed for only getting a well regarded Single-A prospect (Max Ramirez) for Wickman, but then also disappointed for getting a major league player (Hector Luna) for Belliard.  In Wickman's case, fans said they'd have preferred a Triple-A prospect, and in Belliard's, they wanted draft picks.  This is odd, because a major leaguer is more valuable than a Triple-A prospect, and a Single-A prospect is worth more than two draft picks.  How can it make any sense, then, that a Single-A prospect is considered disappointing, but draft picks would be more satisfying than a major leaguer?

To oversimplify things, a couple draft picks just aren't worth much.  Out of a dozen second-round and sandwich-round draft picks by the Indians this decade, only Brian Tallet has made it to the major leagues.  Adam Miller is as great of a compensation pick as anyone could pray for, and while he could be a great player for the Indians someday, he won't do it until some five years after the departure of Jim Thome, the player for whom the Indians were compensated with his pick.  Had the Indians intended to compete in 2003 or 2004, that draft pick would have been worthless in that cause.

And it's not like it's all Adam Millers out there in that sandwich round.  Far from it.  There's also Derek Thompson, Mike Conroy, Matt Whitney and Micah Schilling.  Many compensation picks don't make it as far as Max Ramirez, and very few end up being real major leaguers.  Which, by the way, is what Hector Luna is.  We tend to think of a great prospect like John Drennen as more valuable than a decent player like Luna, but it isn't true.  Drennen may never hit as well as Luna.  Alex Escobar didn't.


A few thoughts to ponder next time a real head-scratcher comes across the transactions wire.  It only takes one Wrong GM for a team to overpay for a player, whether by trade or free agent signing, because that one Wrong GM will just outbid the 28 Right GMs.  That basic dynamic drove the Bartolo Colon trade and other classics like Zambrano/Kazmir and Pierzynski/half-the-Twins-pitching-staff.

But it takes 29 Wrong GMs for a team to underpay for a player, because it means that even the high bidder out of 29 teams was still undervaluing the player.  And while that can happen — Vlad Guerrero comes to mind — as professionalized as modern front offices are, it sure isn't going to happen much.

But all of this assumes that there's an open, 29-team market with no trade veto in play.  When there's a trade veto, the market very often shrinks to one — Abreu, Griffey, Vizquel — and the player's value is essentially dictated by the team doing the buying. The selling team can walk away from the deal, of course.  But in the case of a two-month rental player, what good would that do?

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Re: Trades, leverage and value
Great article Jay.  You really nailed the Abreu situation.

I'll own up to being someone who questioned whether draft picks would have been a better return than Luna.  I admit to being overly skeptical about HL, he does have a chance to be an everyday player for cheap.

But still, I think you need to be careful with statements like [t]his is odd, because a major leaguer is more valuable than a Triple-A prospect, because if you're suggesting that someone like Ramon Vazquez is more valuable than an early draft pick, I can't agree.  

Because Ramon Vazquez is the definition of freely-available, replacement-level talent.  There are dozens of similar players looking for NRI each year.

And it goes back to the idea of teams needing to gamble on top-flight talent.  You need to fill out your team with players like Todd Hollandsworth, but you also need to use your draft picks so that you end up with an CC or two, even if most draft picks don't even come close to Hollandsworth.

Again, in Luna's case, he's better than that.  Fine.  But you can't just say that any major league talent is better than a draft pick.  That ignores the fact that major league talent is available in the market.

by dgcambridge on Aug 8, 2006 10:54 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Vazquez is not a prospect, so not only wouldn't I say that he's more valuable than a draft pick, I in fact didn't say it.

The market ain't what it used to be.  I might grant you that players of similar on-field value to Luna are available on the market, but a reserve player, the value of his contract is considerable -- four years of control with zero guaranteed dollars.

Players with Luna's on-field value, paired with that contract status, are in fact very scarce, and it should be obvious from that standpoint that they are far more valuable than draft picks.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 11:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Yep, you didn't say it about Vazquez, and that's my point.  It's not just about whether a draft pick would have turned out as well as the acquired player, you need to consider how available a player with similar value is on the market.  

There's a clear gap between someone like Vazquez and someone like (well, ok) Luna.  I guess I'm just saying that line is obscured by talk of acquiring a "real major leaguer".  (Semantics, I guess, but that's an old-school term that has been used to justify teams' obsessions with known mediocrity.  By which I do not mean Luna).

by dgcambridge on Aug 8, 2006 11:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
It is true that that is an old-school crutch, but it's also true that the new stathead orthodoxy often goes too far in the opposite direction.  There is a huge attrition risk attached to prospects, and even if we ignore that, a player who can help in 2009 is a lot less valuable than a player who can help in 2007.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 11:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Other thing is, without going into all the details of draft compensation, you can't ever get a Top 15 pick, and the odds are well against getting a Top 30 pick, and in the case of our rental guys, probably not even Top 40.  The value of each pick drops drastically through the top 50, so that's one reason I'm fairly dismissive of the subject.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 11:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
True, and I understand how it works.  But you're right, if there was a strong chance we could get a top 5 pick, that would be different situation.

by dgcambridge on Aug 8, 2006 11:21 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Wow, excellent post Jay. I too thought the Abreu deal was a dud for the Phillies, but your discussion helps show that Gillick got just about what he could get. [Just wish it was more because now I lose him in my fantasy league for virtually nothing, a good prospect would have helped me at least as trade bait, oh well ;)]

This reading should be mandatory for the majoritiy of the yahoos at the Cleveland board on espn. They have reviled every move Shapiro has made. I tried justifying the deals, but they could care less about economics, they are mostly just bitter.

And with you writing this post and indiansfan writing two posts last night of less than five words, I am not sure what is occurring except maybe a shift in the space-time continuum ... :D

by talonk on Aug 8, 2006 11:08 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
One thing I think is worth adding to your list of midseason contract exchanges is marginal revenue.  Nate Silver estimates that:

  • An additional regular season win is worth about $750,000 in marginal revenues, before accounting for its effect on the probability of a playoff appearance.

  • A playoff appearance is worth about $30 million dollars.

The Yankees have the flexibility to assume the risk or Abreu's contract if he doesn't get them to the playoffs, but if his acquisition is the factor that sends them there, the economic value of his contract is significantly changed.

by mkwng on Aug 8, 2006 11:28 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
That's an interesting point.  I think Silver's numbers are a bit high, and I'm not sure that what something is worth to the average can be applied very easily to the Yankees, whose environment is so different.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Like the others have mentioned...Great article.  I too was happy to see the Indians ship off guys who really weren't going to help this team for this year and help the club save a few bucks for this season that they could hopefully toss around to whomever is deserving of it...I would like to see CC locked up for a VERY long time, more as the face of the franchise then as a superstar.

My issue however is the value gotten from Wickman.  I thought A Cab, Choo and Luna were all solid additions.  When Cab is eventually with the big league club, Luna is flexibility that the team hasn't had since J Mac.  Choo should at the very least push the core of young outfeilders to their best and possibly become a solid top of the order hitter.
Let me get back to Wickman as that is the point for my comment.  While Wickmans value was not extremely high, I believe somethign could have been worked out to get a substantially better prospect...OR even a player whom later got traded to the Dodgers.  Its definitely in hindsight, but everyone knew that the Braves were shopping Betemit.  Everyone knew the Braves needed bullpen help.  For me it is difficult to imagine that the Indians farm system does not have atleast Willy Aybar sitting around.  I can't be certain, but Wickman had to have greater appeal to the Braves then Baez, even with the age and contract status.

So while Max may end up being a major league catcher, the fact that he was moved from an offensive position to a MUCH LESSer offensive position tells me his offensive ceiling is AT MOST Kelly Shoppach.
I think I'm kind of talking in circles here, but that should give a relative explanation as to "lost value" from Wickman.

by Brandini on Aug 8, 2006 12:24 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I have to disagree with the Shoppach comparisons.  As a younger player, Ramirez has already shown a dramatically better control of the strike zone than Shoppach ever did, despite  Shoppach's age and experience advantage.

by APV on Aug 8, 2006 12:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
And don't you think that Ramirez was moved because they thought he could handle the move defensively, not because his offensive wasn't good enough?

by dgcambridge on Aug 8, 2006 12:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
From what I've read it was for offensive reasons.  He is projected as a .250 hitter with minimal power in triple A for 2009 Currently he has nearly a k PER game at a low level...Quite similar to Shoppach actually.
So .250 with power v. .250 with minimal power.  It is definitely way too early to tell, but at this point Max doesn't seem to be much more then a run of the mill back up catcher.

by Brandini on Aug 8, 2006 1:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I'd like to know where you've read that.  Every direct source I've seen says Max has a great bat, and if he can handle catching it's a bonus.  Some say he could end up at 3B.

Those FirstInning projections are neat but wildly premature.  You won't find other sites quoating them until they've got more of a track record.

Even so, if they're right, Max will be 24 years old and putting up solid numbers in Triple-A, which would make him a very good prospect.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Not to mention the fact that this trade cleared a spot on the 40 man roster, which had to play into the overall plan of an extended 07 spring training for some of the live arms hanging out in AAA.
-Erik "Come on Dorn, get in front of the damn ball"

by drerikbrady on Aug 8, 2006 1:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I don't know how much that mattered -- not enough to pass up comparable but more advanced talent, I'm pretty sure of that.  Max will be exposed to Rule 5 in the fall but would not make an attractive target.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Oh I agree with that point, but I'm not necessarily talking about Wickman or Ramirez, more about the player that could be promoted from AAA in Wickman's place.  I can't remember exactly who that was, but nonetheless, someone was promoted, and we get a more accurate major league evaluation of that player that we might not get if Wickman isn't removed from the roster.  Addition by subtraction, if you will.
-Erik "Come on Dorn, get in front of the damn ball"

by drerikbrady on Aug 8, 2006 2:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I will look at Kellys age 22 year at class A+ v. Maxs age 21 year at class A:
Kelly Shoppach struck out 112 time in 414 at bats.  Once every 3.69 at bats, nearly once a game.
Maximiliano Ramirez has struck out 82 times in 309 at bats.  Once every 3.77 at bats, again, nearly once a game.

I think stating "dramatically better control of the strike zone" is, well a "dramatic" overexageration.  They are close, with Max being slightly ahead of Kelly, not a dramatic advantage.

by Brandini on Aug 8, 2006 1:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
If you just look at K's no.  But while Shoppach averaged 0.14 BB/AB, Ramirez has averaged 0.22 BB/AB as a 21-year old this year.  Ramirez's BB/K rate is 0.82, whereas Shoppach's was 0.53. Direct comparisons are a little difficult since Shoppach wasn't playing professional ball as a 21-year old, but strikeouts are only half the story.  Those kind of plate control numbers generally bode well for future development as a player, particularly for someone as young as Ramirez.

by APV on Aug 8, 2006 4:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
A couple of points.

Wickman was a 10 and 5, Baez was not. So we had a one team trade zone. Baez could have been dealt anywhere, therfore driving up his price, not to mention he will still be pitching next year and Wickman will not.

We did not have any Aybar sitting around unless you consider AsCab to be that guy. If we had done that, it would have equated to Perez and Wickman for Betemit, that is not a fair deal. Aybar is more regarded (top 5? in LAD BA preseason) than Luna I believe as well and we got Luna after the fact.

We could have included another player, but as we have seen, Shapiro is loathe to deal prospects. My guess is that he didn't fell Wickman and Garko(?) justified Betemit. So they decided to stick with a 1 for 1 one the one we got was a high ceiling guy that the Braves didn't need (glut in their system that normally they would not have dealt).

by talonk on Aug 8, 2006 12:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Dude, you are overthinking the Wickman deal.  This was the whole point of my article:  the trade veto is not 20% of the situation, it's 80% of it.  All the rest of that stuff is 20%, combined.  You just have to be grateful if the one team you can deal with actually wants your player.  And then you look the other GM in the eye and you say, dude, you know me, I'm a good guy, I'm a fair guy.  Don't make me look stupid with this, I've got to get something for my player.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
While I understand the purpose...The Braves were DESPERATE.  Both teams were in exactly the same spot.  The Braves being desperate to add someone who can actually finish off a game, the Indians desperate to get SOMETHING for their retirement bound closer.  So like the Andruw Jones situation the trade veto gets in the way, but I have a hard time believing they got potentially "so little" because of the trade veto ability.
I don't think teams are so brash to say, "well he might not even want to come here".  Instead Shapiro has the, "well your bullpen is awful and there are 21 other teams within 5 games of the playoffs...what are you gonna do?"

As I mentioned in my comment, it is not a big deal, it just seemed as though Shapiro rushed this deal a little.  It is especially tough to swallow given the fact that the team looks locked up at the position for the next 5 years.  

It is just strange that BY FAR the best player the team dealt (in terms of league need - see washington/cincinatti trade) that the team technically got the least.  Broussard and Perez were traded to the same team and brought in two players who could technically help this franchise for the next 5 years.  Even Luna could develope into atleast a servicable player.

by Brandini on Aug 8, 2006 1:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Yeah, it's only strange if you continue to ignore the fact that Wickman was the only one with the trade veto.  So you can keep beating your head against that wall, or you can realize that that in fact explains the whole thing pretty simply.

I don't know how "desperate" the Braves were for a guy with such weak numbers.  They may have had other irons in the fire, they may not have.  They may have had serious doubts as to whether they should be buyers rather than sellers, at all.

The "rush" theory makes the least sense of all.  Teams that deal early almost always do better than teams that deal late, if only because they have more to offer (more games remaining to be played with improved roster).  This is especially true with a one-team market, where that team can make a deal with someone else, and then you've got nothing.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:47 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Great post Jay,

But one point that has to be made in the analysis of the Abreu trade has to be effecient use of resources.  Yes, Abreu was a commodity that didn't hold as much value to other teams as the lay observer thinks, but as you say a player is a sum of both his production value and his costs.  The Phillies a team in a large market with a large amount of resources and few costs, with an also obvious lack of production from its current record should have been more concerned with increasing production than increasing profits, at least for the fans.

The Phillies easily could have made the decision to take on some of Abreu's contract and possibly taken back more in production from say the Tigers.  Now if the Phillies utilize the increase in profits to better the production by say entering the FA market and getting back players with more value than Abreu then they would have proved my analysis wrong by making a good use of their resources.  But at this point, the jury is out on whether the Phillies are going to be able to do that.

by Ghostof WillHartley on Aug 8, 2006 12:26 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
The Phillies easily could have made the decision to take on some of Abreu's contract and possibly taken back more in production from say the Tigers.

True, I would just guess that because it is such a huge contract, they would have had to eat a lot.  More than they could justify by talent received.  But I'm speculating.

by dgcambridge on Aug 8, 2006 12:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I would agree with you, except that what little information we have suggests that Abreu would only go to the Yankees, possibly the Red Sox.  The Red Sox were holding tightly onto their best prospects, as were the Yankees for their one very good prospect.

What you're suggesting is that the Phillies could have "bought" better prospects with cold hard cash.  That is often the case, but I don't think it was the case in this deal.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Excellent post, Jay. I understand the Phillies point of view about Abreu. But it is a great deal for the Yankees. Because the Yankees (and the redsox) have so much cash, the Yankees roster basically consists of their current players and any other overpaid players on teams out of the playoffs, even if they are good to excellent players. This is a ridiculous advantage, and just pisses me off to no end. They are playing a different game then the rest of the teams, as your well thought out arguments just don't apply to them. I know many people who have given up on baseball due to this fact (in a much simpler form).

I agree with you more than dgcambridge about the value of prospects particularly your quote "We tend to think of a great prospect like John Drennen as more valuable than a decent player like Luna, but it isn't true." I would also suggest substituting Marte for Drennen and Crisp for Luna in the quote. The above arguments apply for that deal also, as the tribe has constraints they must operate in that the evil empires (boston and NY) do not.

by oxforddave on Aug 8, 2006 12:36 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I would also suggest substituting Marte for Drennen and Crisp for Luna in the quote.

Had Marte been a 19-year-old in Low-A rather than a 21-year-old in Triple-A, there's no way that deal would have been made.

It's nice that we didn't have to give up seven years with one of the Top 20 prospects in the world to get Luna, but rather just two months of Ronnie Belliard.  That is where you were going with this, right?

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 1:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
My point in the post is that two teams have different rules than the others. Without salary conditions the Crisp deal makes no sense, (Jay:  "This is odd, because a major leaguer is more valuable than a Triple-A prospect."). It is just that salary (and future salary) matters alot to the tribe and alot less to the two-headed monster of redsox/yankees. Seriously, why doesn't baseball just give the redsox/yankees a free pass to the post season? Oh, I guess they already do.

 

by oxforddave on Aug 8, 2006 3:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
It is understood that, without considering the needs of specific rosters, Crisp was more valuable than Marte.  That's why the Red Sox had to also give us an upgrade at two other positions and throw in a whole bunch of extra cash.

by Jay on Aug 8, 2006 11:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Great post! This begs the question: why don't we ever see an analysis of trades like this in newspapers or other popular media (eg ESPN)?  I think this is indicative of why the Internet is quickly replacing newspapers as a source of news.

To get back on topic, thanks Jay for describing the four things that are being exchanged in a trade.  I certainly have a greater respect for what the FO guys have to consider before making any roster moves or trades after reading your posts this year.

by LeftyCatcher on Aug 8, 2006 12:55 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Because TV thinks we are dumb, and they would like to keep it that way.

by hans on Aug 8, 2006 1:31 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I brought this up earlier in the thread, but let me ask for other's thoughts specifically.  How does the  fact that we are in (basically) extended 07 spring training mode factor into some of these trades.  I think it's a big reason that Max Ramirez was the player that we got for Wickman.  The point has certainly been raised in other threads/diaries that we have/had some players on the roster that were blocking some of our most intriguing prospects.  Getting a longer evaluation on some of our top prospects really ought to figure into the tabulation of what the Indians get out of moving some of these players.  Overanalysis?
-Erik "Come on Dorn, get in front of the damn ball"

by drerikbrady on Aug 8, 2006 2:05 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
No, I think it's pretty relevant. That the Indians got a decent prospect back to boot is nice as well.

by Ryan on Aug 8, 2006 2:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Yeah, I don't think you can ignore it.  You have to evaluate the Wickman/Ramirez trade differently than the Broussard/Choo trade.  While Choo replaces Broussard on the big league roster, Ramirez doesn't replace Wickman, someone else does.  There must be some way to incorporate that reality into the value of the trade.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 8, 2006 2:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
By the way Jay, another great post.  The quality here is second to none.  Ryan, adding Jay as a moderator was a great move.  The two of you are running a great website.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Aug 8, 2006 2:45 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Great writing, Jay.  Once again you've provided a level of insight that I have not seen anywhere else.  It's only a matter of time before one of the major media outlets makes you an offer you can't refuse.

by Joe Charboneau on Aug 8, 2006 4:49 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I'm a little bummed the FO wasn't able to make room for Cruceta.  He's put up some nice numbers for AAA Tacoma--not quite great, but very interesting--and he only just turned 25.  

http://www.minorleaguebaseball.com/app/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=t_ibp&did=milb&cid=529

But we lose a few along the way, don't we?

by homelytourist on Aug 8, 2006 10:55 PM EDT   0 recs

I noticed he's now a starter again!
Hello homelytourist,

Yes, I noticed Cruceta earlier this year and seen he was doing pretty well (especially at that time; he's fallen off a bit since I seen him.)  

The interesting thing is that he is now a starter again; the Indians had decided to make him a reliever (doesn't that sound familiar? :-)  

His walk rate is higher than ideal, but his H/IP and K/IP is good.  So, yes, I think he would have been interesting to hold on to, especially since Dittler and Denham have both faltered at AAA, while Guthrie has been back and forth and is 2 years older than Cruceta.  

Again, makes you wonder if the FO is correctly identifying which guys to keep as starters and which ones should become relievers, though no FO is right on every decision.  Personally, I don't believe they're making the right move with Carmona when they have 3-5 other candidates for the closer's spot and our rotation is only solid at best and not spectacular, but hopefully, it will work out, one way or another, for Carmona and the Indians.

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Aug 9, 2006 12:31 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Good stuff. I completely agree on Abreu...for once, Gillick did a nice job. People in the media seem to overlook the fact that the Phillies are trying to retool, so clearing $15M or so in salary will help them tremendously (if they make smart decisions, which might not happen with Stand Pat in charge). If you add in other factors, such as Abreu being overpaid and the Phillies possibly retooling and playing .500 ball next year, it looks like a nice deal for the Phils.

The Andruw Jones deal is a bit different, though. While I completely agree that his trade value is significantly lower with the no-trade clause, this is a guy who many teams will be able to afford in the offseason. For various reasons, teams are more willing to spend $13M in November than they are in July. If the Braves are willing to let him hammer out an extension with his new club (and you have to assume they would), they could still get good value for him, so I don't think they've completely shot themselves in the foot the way the Phillies did with Abreu. Teams like Boston, St. Louis, Detroit, and both Chicago squads could be interested, so even if Jones forces the Braves to deal him to a specific team, I think they can still get good value for him. Of course, I thought they messed up not dealing him this past offseason when they certainly would have ended up with the most in return, but I don't agree with everything Schulerolz does anyway. I still wouldn't be surprised to see JS hang onto him and let him walk after 2007, dumb as it may be.

As far as the Tribe deals, I'm happy with all of them. The Belliard trade doesn't really make sense to me because I thought the team would focus on a defensive minded player, but in terms of value, it's a solid deal - certainly better than a compensation pick. People complaining about the Wickman deal seem to forget that the guy is 89 years old and completely average. I don't know why people are mad that we got a good prospect for him AND dumped his salary. We've got one of the best GM's in the league, and people seem to be forgetting that every time one of their favorite veterans is traded away.

by Kos on Aug 9, 2006 12:40 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
I guess I should add that I think your assessment of the Jones situation is correct, but I just wouldn't take it to the extreme that you did. His value has gone down now that he's a 10-5, but I don't think it's as low as Abreu's was two weeks ago.

by Kos on Aug 9, 2006 12:42 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed!
Hello Kos,

Jay - great article! :-)

Kos, yes, people seem to overvalue Wickman when

  • He was a solid, but unspectacular closer;
  • He's 37 years old;
  • He had 10/5 rights;
  • He would only go to a team that would allow him to close.  

For Shapiro to get a quality prospect who could be a future piece was actually a pretty good job by him and resolidifies his position as one of the better GMs in the game today.
Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Aug 9, 2006 12:48 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
The guys at Beyond the Box Score give this post some love this morning.

by APV on Aug 9, 2006 12:03 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Trades, leverage and value
Another reason for Shapiro to "rush" the Wickman trade is what if Atlanta went on a losing streak and decided to not be buyers? Then what would the Indians received for him?

by ronh on Aug 9, 2006 3:07 PM EDT   0 recs

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