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Higher Ground

A new series, a new opponent.  And for us, as diehard Indians fans, let's also add a new approach.

The Division Series was incredibly stressful and draining for any number of reasons, one of them being a huge amount of baiting back and forth between the Good Guys (that's us) and the Bad Guys (those cretin Yankees fans).  I don't regret that one bit.  Sure, it got a little dark at times, but it was honest, and they asked for it, and they deserved it.  It is fantastic to see the Yankees lose, and to see our Indians take it from them, even better.  But we have been, in our own way, as bad as the mainstream media outlets we criticize.

Is there any doubt that every moment we spend focusing on the Yankees -- the putridness of their team, their organization, their owner and, yes, a huge number of their fans -- is a moment we could have spent celebrating our Tribe?  Our great team, that does great things and does them the Right Way?  That has no mega-contracts and lots of exciting young players?  That's such a totally great bunch of guys aside from that one time J-Mike punched a cop?

I've had enough of the troll atmosphere.  I spent enough time indulging them and not enough time banning them, and I won't spend one more minute baiting the opposition.  For one thing, it's a lousy way to spend October, and for another thing, Red Sox fans are just not worthy of that kind of treatment.  I know there's been some discussion here about hating the Red Sox and their fans as much as or more than the Yankees and their fans.  Let me be real clear about this:  It's not even a close call.

For starters, Red Sox fans have not had more than their fair share -- still just one championship in the past 88 years.  Hell, we've got more than that.  For another thing, while the Red Sox are now doing crazy overspending things, they have never been the aggressors, they have never jumped the market, and they are still nowhere near the Yankees in this category.  While the Red Sox (and their fans)  enjoy a similar unfair advantage over small market clubs, they didn't start this.  They're responding to the Yankees the only way they can.

There are two main types of Red Sox fan.  One is the type we always used to complain about, unbelievably self-important and bathed in their own suffering, far more insufferable than we've ever been or (God willing) ever will be.  I'll tell you something funny, these guys have actually gotten a bad rap.

I want you to think about how you feel about the 1997 World Series, our big game-seven loss.  Think about how much of a big deal we've made about it in the past ten years, how much we've complained.  People, those Red Sox fans, they had four Game Sevens -- 1946, 1967, 1975, 1986.  I know we had terrible teams for 35 years, and I know that they should count themselves lucky for even having had four Game Sevens in four World Series to lose.  But still ... can you imagine what miserable sons of bitches we'd be if we lost another two or three Game Sevens in our lifetime, without ever winning one?  Can you?  Okay, now add in Bucky Dent, add in Aaron Boone, add in just the pure competitive proximity to the disgusting Yankees, year after year after year.

You'd be a totally insufferable son of a bitch, that's what you'd be.  Yes, you would.  So have a heart.  Anyway, have you talked to any of those guys since 2004?  They're teddy bears now.  Laid back.  They still root for the Sox, still follow them closely, but the bitterness is all gone.  Those aren't the Red Sox fans who've been irritating you for the last couple years.

No, the ones who are irritating you now, showing up to all those away games, are the second type of Red Sox fans, the bandwagon guys.  And yes, they're irritating as hell -- but all bandwagon fans are irritating, and all good teams have them.  Boston has more mostly because, well, there's a hell of a lot of people from Boston around the country, and a hell of a lot of people whose Dads were from Boston.  The Red Sox win a ring, and suddenly all those people rediscover their deep, deep emotional connection to the Red Sox.  You don't see this from the Angels or White Sox, two other recent champs, because those teams never had any fans anyway.  So that's all I'm saying -- the irritating ones are just regular bandwagon fans, standard-issue lowlifes, and they don't deserve their own special category of abuse.

Moreover, we deserve better than to spend the rest of our postseason baiting people and being baited.  We deserve to celebrate our own team and relish in the celebration.  So while I won't speak for everyone else and can't give any orders, I hope you will all join me in taking a decidedly different tack for the ALCS.  No baiting, no trolling.  Just rootrootrooting for the Indians.  Ryan and I will deal with trolls as they come up, and I would ask each of you not go trolling elsewhere.  Hopefully the guys at OverTheMonster will join us in this.

For in the words of JFK, "Our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this planet.  We all breathe the same air.  We all cherish our children's future.  And we all know that the Yankees and their fans are the worst scum on the face of the Earth."

Go Tribe.

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Re: Higher Ground
though this would be an excellent opportunity for him to show up at the Jake in a Tribe hat without compromising his, uhhhh... principles?

by jeremy on Oct 10, 2007 9:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Did you learn nothing from the above post?

by JulioBernazard on Oct 10, 2007 11:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
i just assume you not comment on what i may or may not get out of any post just as i won't ask you if you have a sense of humor.

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 11:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Not to pick a fight, but "Screw Lebron" is very much in keeping with the above post.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2007 10:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Ahem.

"Is there any doubt that every moment we spend focusing on the Yankees -- the putridness of their team, their organization, their owner and, yes, a huge number of their fans -- is a moment we could have spent celebrating our Tribe?"

by JulioBernazard on Oct 11, 2007 12:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Well said.  
LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2007 6:05 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Wow.  Thank you for an extremely well thought out and written piece.

by stuart dean on Oct 10, 2007 6:10 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
My favorite thing about Red Sox fans:  They hate the Yankees.

I think the ones I've met are actually a lot like Tribe fans - that is in that they seem obsessed with their team.  It's not a hobby or what they do when it's not football season.  They watch other baseball games that the Redsox aren't in.  My friends that live there call me up at random with comments like "That Carmona Mother - is ridiculous."  And I appreciate that they appreciate that.

I can't get out of my head how similar these two teams (and their fans) actually are.  I think this series is a coin flip.

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 6:13 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
At this point I'm too anxious over the actual games to give two damns about Red Sox fans, but I think it's a good policy to warn against trolling and falling into the traps of trollers.

by osoc13 on Oct 10, 2007 6:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground

Living up here in New England, I can easily see the difference between Yankee fans (arrogant -- though is generalizing) and Red Sox fans (they understand failure, even if they fear and half expect it.) I recall sitting one day at Fenway with my Tribe hat on and a nice man near me talking about how he watched Bob Feller pitch, and what a privilege it was. Another time, I watched the Tribe score nine runs, and almost win. The Red Sox fans around me were sympathetic. The last time I went to Yankee Stadium, I was in the parking lot and a guy saw my hat and nearly got me into a head lock.

by connecticut wahoo on Oct 10, 2007 6:28 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
am I the only one who was more crushed in 95 than 97?

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 6:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Maybe.  I was the proverbial "happy to be there" in 1995 and, considering my feelings towards baseball following the debacle that was 1994, it was a miracle I was as fired up for the Tribe as I was.  It just didn't seem as bad because Atlanta's pitching was pretty damn good.  I also felt like there would be more chances.  1997 was far worse in almost every way.

by Fredward on Oct 10, 2007 7:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Reasons why 95 wasn't as bad:

  • Just happy to be there.
  • Worthy opponent, including HOF starters.
  • Expected to be back real soon.
  • Ended in six.

by Jay on Oct 10, 2007 7:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
my only reason i guess - and it makes no sense - is that i just liked the guys on the team better in 95. i was never as attached to the matt williams' of the 97 team as i was of the first vintage.

if we were to fall short this year, than trade jhonny and gutz, loose cc to FA and go back with - i don't know - marcus giles, dye, and brad penny or something, and fell similarly close, but closer to winning it all, i feel like this year would bother me more.

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 7:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Amen
Wow...you nailed it Jay.  I'll be rooting like hell for the Sox in ALCS, but if we don't prevail, you can be damn sure I'll be rooting for Cleveland in WS.   By the way, is it me or will the Cy Young come down to this Friday's game?  Whoever wins it comes away with a stranglehold on the award.
Lurking Red Sox Fan

by B Cap on Oct 10, 2007 6:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
yeah, who can stomach rooting for the NL?

How could it not influence voting?  I presume votes weren't due already or anything.  Furthermore even if they split pretty even, odds got to go to whomever moves on to the Series.

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 6:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
Not positive, but I think ballots are turned in before the postseason.  Beckett and CC should make a gentleman's agreement to give it to whoever pitches better on Friday, regardless of what the fools in media vote.

by CU Adam on Oct 10, 2007 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
That is a great idea.  I think that the award no longer needs to be one based on the subjective opinions of sports writers.  In the past they were the ones who watched most of the games and were in a position to make reasonably accurate judgements.  But now with so many stats kept up to the minute I think the league could just write a formula based on those stats and say whoever qualified with the best performance wins.  I'm sure there would still be things to argue over, like how playing on different teams affected performance and whether the team made the playoffs or not (a HUGE factor now that has nothing to do with numerical performance), but at least we'd be arguing about baseball and not the subjective opinions of sports writers and their local rooting tendencies.
Lurking Red Sox Fan

by B Cap on Oct 11, 2007 2:54 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
Isn't there a good chance that they'll face each other twice in the series?

by VA tribe fan on Oct 11, 2007 4:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
There's a chance, but it is believed that the Red Sox will start Beckett on short rest in Game Four, and the Indians will hold Sabathia to Game Five.

by Jay on Oct 11, 2007 10:18 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
They're taking Wake to start G4, but I don't think even if he goes, that he'll stay in for very long.  He's hurting, and doesn't have great success against the tribe hitters anyway.  I bet it'll be Byrd/Beckett for the Cobra's second win of the PS.
When bunting is a crime, only criminals will bunt.

by BostonWahoo on Oct 12, 2007 9:40 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
The Red Sox have a couple of options with Game 4, and it's being held open just in case Wakefield or Jon Lester would need to be used out of the bullpen in any of the first three games to eat some innings.   First they'd go with Wake and have Lester on call, or they'd go with Lester outright, or they may bring Beckett back on short rest.

Having Beckett pitch game four lines Schilling and Matsuzaka for 5 and 6 on regular rest, but if the Red Sox win the ALCS in 7 games, it jumbles the World Series rotation.  Of course, I said before there's no World Series until the final out for these two teams.  On the Red Sox side, I'd take Beckett on Game 7 way before Daisuke Matsuzaka.

by Ish on Oct 12, 2007 10:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Amen
Aren't award ballots submitted before the first game of the playoffs?

by JesseAK on Oct 10, 2007 6:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
When we're losing in game one, and the fans at Fenway start chanting "Over - Rated" (or something equally unimaginative) and Buck/McCarver spout (false) conventional wisdom about how the AL Central is weaker than the AL East, you will change your tune.  Mark my words.

by notsince48 on Oct 10, 2007 6:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I don't really buy this. The Red Sox fans annoy me because they cry poverty even when their team is spending very similar amounts of money to the Yankees, like the last few offseasons. If the Yankees don't re-sign A-Rod, I actually predict the Red Sox surpassing the Yankees in payroll in the enxt few years. At least Yankees fans don't try to deny that they're the Evil Empire.
The poster formerly known as JRam.

by Joe on Oct 10, 2007 7:02 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Well, I disagree.

I see no reason to think the Red Sox can or will pass the Yankees in spending, ever.  It would take a complete restructuring of all media revenue streams for the entire league, followed by the Red Sox contending while the Yankees rebuild.

I don't think I've heard any Red Sox fan cry poverty, ever, although some have complained (rightly) about the difficulty of being in the same division with the Yankees.  As for Yankees fans denying that they're the Evil Empire, we had that here just three days ago.  Where were you?

by Jay on Oct 10, 2007 7:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I agree with Joe's feeling towards Boston fans, but for somewhat different reasons.  They think since everybody hates the Yankees, that we should root for them, and like ESPN has been trying to tell us for the past several years, we must root for one of them.  I think that notion is stupid, and I don't care for either team or its fans.  They may not be as arrogant, but they are close.  There players get hyped almost as bad, and some of their famous fans include Ben Affleck, Bill Simmons, and Jimmy Fallon.  That's all the evidence I need.

by ClarkM on Oct 10, 2007 10:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Agreed.  The Red Sox and their fans are the Yankees' little brothers, in every way; and ofttimes a little brother is more annoying than the original.

Personally I find that, even though their team has a massive payroll and won the WS just three years ago, many of them are unable to shake their woe-is-us victim impulse, and expect others to still feel sorry for them too.  I think this obliviousness is what bothers me most, and I certainly hope we don't find ourselves doing the same thing after the Indians win it all.

by Jackdaw on Oct 10, 2007 11:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Re: Sox fans attitude - I think Jay did very accurately point out though that our attitude come from having had four, count'em --Four WS loses, plus several late season, last-game eliminations.  Winning once was fantastic, esp in the fashion that it was done, but it's hard to erase that feeling of losing after spending so many decades being the patsy.  
Lurking Red Sox Fan

by B Cap on Oct 11, 2007 3:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Please, don't talk to Cleveland fans, whose teams have not won anything since 1964 (Browns) or 1948 (Indians) or ever (Cavaliers) about being a patsy.  That is not the way to curry sympathy.

by woodsmeister on Oct 11, 2007 7:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
To your point about Red Sox fan type #1. I don't care about any # of game sevens they had in that city. While they were crying about their poor baseball team their football team was winning championships and becoming the closest thing to a dynasty in the recent decade...not enough...there basketball team along with the Lakers owned a decade of success and championships.....oh and their hockey team has faired well in that time as well.....

so no sympathy for the bitter old Red Sox fan.

by hans on Oct 10, 2007 7:05 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
You can't compare sports like that. I don't give a damn about the Cavs and Browns. They don't exacerbate my suffering at all. I'm just an Indians fan.

by Voltaire on Oct 10, 2007 7:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Actually that's pretty rare, mon amie.  Most guys I know are fans of at least three team sports -baseball, football and basketball. Myself I follow those three and hockey - when there's a team nearby - and boxing.

But let me say this again: I find kinship among all sports fans - except, you know - those guys.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Oct 10, 2007 7:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I feel strange sometimes, with other sports fans. For a lot of people, baseball is what you do when there's no football. For me, it's the other way around.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Oct 10, 2007 7:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
yeah, i'm of the minority too.  i barely even bother with the watching of the other two.  i took 3 from the baseball pile and skipped right over the football and basketball piles.  all or nothing tends to be my style though...

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 7:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Oh I'm a baseball fan far and away, but I also enjoy supporting the Cavs and Browns in that order and if either of those teams win their respective championships I'm going be celebrating extatically (although the Indians winning will always be the most meaningful)

Although I'll stand by a statment I made months ago, that I'd trade the Browns and all the money it took to get them back for better Cleveland public schools. Its really a travesty the way those schools are forced to run.

by hans on Oct 10, 2007 7:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
People at work seem stunned to learn that I hardly pay any attention to football at all.  I am a baseball guy, through and through.  College basketball is what I follow when the baseball off-season tapers off, but I probably post more during the off-season here than I do during the season.  God I love baseball.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Oct 10, 2007 10:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Agree with Chuck on that one. Most sports fans follow more than one sport.

Boston fans have been living in a golden age the last 10 years. Even the Basketball team is looking up with their new acquisitions.

Now, im all for not trolling; I absolutely hate it when others do that to us. However, I can have a professional hatred for their fans. Im surrounded by guys out here who really dont understand that sports exists outside of the east coast. Great guys, gone to many games at fenway with them, but I actually heard WEEI (local sports radio) discussing who the better match up will be in the world series, once they "get past" cleveland.

Eiwwww.

If we lose to the Red Sox, it wont hurt nearly as bad as losing to the Evil Empire; However, you cant take away a professional hatred of "Red Sox Nation"

God truly does hate cleveland sports.

by Gradysmanldy on Oct 10, 2007 7:29 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
+1
When bunting is a crime, only criminals will bunt.

by BostonWahoo on Oct 10, 2007 8:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
+2

As another outsider in the Boston area, I am struck by the parochialism of this region and it is not limited to the Red Sox and sports, but everything else like radio, television, news and culture.  I refer to an Iron Curtain that stretches from Hartford to New Haven that prevents anything from the rest of the country to permeate into the region.  It's pretty accurate.

But I digress.  

Great writeup about trolling and baiting the opposing fans.  We should be above that.  

But, I have trouble not painting the Red Sox fans with the same brush as used for the Yankees fans.  As far as I am concerned, if the Yankees are the Evil Empire, then the Red Sox are Darth Vader.

Besides, if you had to deal with listening to Jerry Remy constantly banter about becoming the "President of Red Sox Nation" (they actually had an election), you would be looking at this group as very obnoxious.  Remy is a great commentator during the ball game, but over the past year he has become a real homer, so much that this presidential election is a sign that he jumped the shark.

by Spidey on Oct 10, 2007 10:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
One other thing about WEEI - I must say that I am surprised that Jerry Callahan (morning guy) is expressing fear about the Indians and is not portraying the confidence that the other hosts are expressing.  This guy is as cocky as they come, such as talking about sitting Tom Brady during the last two games of the season because the Patriots will be undefeated.

John Dennis, on the other hand...

by Spidey on Oct 10, 2007 10:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
It's telling that the posts in this particular thread are by Boston residents; we just can't properly describe our enmity to those who've never lived here.

Anyway, I promised I'd be nice. I will say, though, that I tried listening to WEEI when I first moved here, to get my sports fix. That didn't last long. Listening to WEEI is like, well, punching yourself in the face.

by ManchildinBeantown on Oct 11, 2007 12:17 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Another thought: You can find kinship with any intelligent sports fan, regardless of the team they follow. There just seems to be a lot less intelligent fans when your base is that large.

Except for the Yankees. Ive honestly never met a smart sports guy who rooted for the yankees.

God truly does hate cleveland sports.

by Gradysmanldy on Oct 10, 2007 7:31 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I have. Probably why I hate them a little less than everyone else here.
The poster formerly known as JRam.

by Joe on Oct 10, 2007 7:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
We can all enjoy this, that's for sure

by Brick. on Oct 10, 2007 7:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I am glad this post was written.

Hey guys, this is Randy from OverTheMonster.com. I can't not agree more with Jay. He really hit it on the head, and I'm glad this article has been put out there.

If you think all Red Sox fans are arrogant, ignorant, or anything else that ends in "ant," please visit OverTheMonster.com. We are the type of Red Sox fan that gives credit where credit is due. We're that type of baseball fan, really.

I have a great core group of readers that really know their Red Sox and their baseball, so we try to weed out the folks that lack knowledge or common sense. I welcome all Red Sox fans to visit my blog, of course, but if there is the typical "Red Sox fan" quote, the real Sox fans set them straight. However, some slip through the cracks, but ignorant statements never get through without a well-reasoned reply.

I challenge anyone here at Let's Go Tribe to visit Over The Monster and find the typical "troll" comment regarding Sabathia or Carmona. If you can find one, I'll shut up, but if you can't, I hope you'll reconsider Red Sox fans -- or atleast to the point you'll visit OTM over the course of the series.

Thanks guys, and again, great article Jay.

by Randy Booth on Oct 10, 2007 7:52 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I checked out their site earlier today, not bad stuff at all. Much better than the whining over at PA. OTM posters actually put together some rational (if a little biased...) thoughts together. Much better than seeing the "What Star from a poorer team can we buy next" felching that goes on PA. Bleh. The more good thought I can read about the Indians/Sox match up the better. It's nice to see how good the tribe is through the eyes of an intelligent enemy.

by KevinV on Oct 10, 2007 8:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Speaking of quality blogs, the guys over at replacementlevel.com run a really good Yankees blog. They don't really give off any of that "we own the game" vibe that seems to prevail among the PA crowd, it's a pretty good read.

by zempf on Oct 11, 2007 12:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
To a friendly camaraderie, then.

This of course goes out the window if Pedroia throws his hands up in protest just once during the game.

Cheers.

by nickjs21 on Oct 10, 2007 9:21 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Word.
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 11, 2007 12:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Well said.

Before Royalsreview gets over here, I want to add that Raffy B. had his instance of being a bad guy himself along with J-Mike. HAHAHA Royalsreview, beat you to it.

Anyway, I would much rather be positive about the Tribe than worry about what Red Sox fans or the media themselves think. We are in the midst of a special season.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2007 7:54 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Yeah; as I said in the earlier diary, I don't have any truck with the Red Sox fan base.  It is pretty lonely to be in northeastern Connecticut (prime Red Sox territory) and rooting for the Indians, but my experience with most Red Sox fans is that they are devoted (which is perfectly appropriate, after all) and fair.  This extends even to their announcing teams (especially Tripiani on the radio).  There is none of the arrogance and tunnel vision of the Yankee fan base (hell, John Sterling, who is easily the least annoying full-time Yankee announcer, often can't even be bothered to learn the names of the players on the opposing team - "that's a fly ball, caught by the center-fielder...").
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.

by jdudas on Oct 10, 2007 8:41 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Boston had the Celtics of the 70s-80s, and perhaps the best dynasty in the NFL now.

Red Sox fans are THE most annoying fans in sports if you ask me. The main difference between Boston fans and Yankees fans is that Yankee fans realize nobody else likes them.

by mikebrowns26 on Oct 10, 2007 9:16 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Don't worry Mike, we're starting to get the message! ;)  BTW, I've seen a lot of ink spilled on the fact that Boston sports is an embarrassment of riches lately and we should enjoy it while it lasts.  Good luck Friday.
Lurking Red Sox Fan

by B Cap on Oct 11, 2007 3:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Aw hell, Jay, take all the fun out of my seething, burning, all-consuming hatred. Randy, your diplomatic post doesn't help, either.

I feel like I've got as much disdain for the Nation as anyone here, but I have to admit that that's due to my exposure to mainstream Boston media (and what the hell does mainstream media in any market know?), casual Sox fans, and, well, jerks. Three segments of baseball fandom that are common to every team's fanbase. Personally, I fall into the third category. There, I said it.

The problems I have with Sox fans could just as easily be applied to Indians fans. We all (like Sox fans) complain about the Yankees, but we'd love for our team to be able to spend like Steinbrenner. We hate the sense of entitlement ("Grady's gonna look good in a Sox uniform" is how my friend put it), but remember how certain we all were in '97 that Schilling was going to be an Indian? And how many times have we started riots that included overturning cars and setting them on fire for having New York plates?

Okay, that was a cheap shot.

Look, what I'm doing here is admitting my hypocrisy in making scathing generalizations about Red Sox fans, when I would feel the same way living in any other baseball market (except Cleveland, of course).

And so, I promise that I will make every effort not to, you know, be like that. I might even say something nice about Sox fans every now and then.

Jay, you don't know how hard that was for me. Hope you're happy.

by ManchildinBeantown on Oct 10, 2007 9:22 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
To this post....hip hip, hooray!

Well said.

by supermarioelia on Oct 10, 2007 10:25 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
ive seen some good conversations in the Red Sox blog, good to see Tabler and Turk posting over there....i fint it very difficult to post over there (cause im not from Cleveland), so i dont really follow some of the things one of the Boston guys said(i think he was from Cleveland)

by luifer5 on Oct 10, 2007 10:36 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Amen to that Jay.

No need for burning hatred or slandering.

Every fan base has its stereotypes and band wagoners, but that most certainly doesn't make us all that way.

Yes, I will root for the Sox, but I'm really looking forward to some good baseball.

...and may there be favorable weather for this showdown.

Sorry, felt like adding something even though this has been pretty well hashed out.

"SK: Hey, imagine what Steinbrenner's statue'll be doing. SO: Cast in bronze with his wallet out."

by mmmsox on Oct 10, 2007 10:40 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
But yes, we all do hate the Yankees.
Celebrities, some New Yorkers, and a few of my old math and science teachers do not fall into that category of dislike.
"SK: Hey, imagine what Steinbrenner's statue'll be doing. SO: Cast in bronze with his wallet out."

by mmmsox on Oct 10, 2007 10:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Jay: Perfect.

Let's stick to the topics worthy of debating regarding the Sox...

  1. Dustin Pedroia is moved to tears if you throw inside to him.

  2. Manny Ramirez is Brick Tamland as a baseball player.

  3. The Evil Empire is pretty Evil, but the Sox can burn a hole in their wallet nearly as well.

  4. Damn, they have Bill James.  How can we change that?

  5. Isn't Josh Beckett due for a blister?

by tabler84 on Oct 10, 2007 10:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Finger tip implants have reduced the likelihood of #5 ;)

by Randy Booth on Oct 10, 2007 11:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Is there anyone we can set up a cagematch between Chuck and William Simmons?

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/071010

by supermarioelia on Oct 10, 2007 11:02 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
ugh.  I don't know what confuses me more - how this guy still has a job or why are you reading any of his articles?

by Spidey on Oct 11, 2007 1:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
The scary part is that I actually used to enjoy reading his articles, up until the beginning of this past summer I'd say. Now they are just painful to read.

by supermarioelia on Oct 11, 2007 11:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Here is my problem with redsox fans.

Johnny Damon decided to take more money to play for the Yankees. Ohh, the wailing and gnashing of teeth in redsox nation. Johnny Traitor! I can't believe he decided to play for the Yankees! etc.

Folks, did you ever realize the reason he was on the redsox in the first place because the redsox outbid everyone? The Royals and then the A's just had to let him go. He is just as much a redsock mercenary as a yankee mercenary.

The same goes for Manny. He is an Indian, not a redsock, you guys just had the big pocketbook. And then they give Manny a hard time! Unbelievable.

The tribe beating the redsox will be just as sweet as when they beat the yankees.

by oxforddave on Oct 10, 2007 11:09 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
How do we feel about this "Yankee fan" showing up to watch LeBron play?

By the way, I will never boo LeBron as long as he is a cavalier. LeBron is the man.

by oxforddave on Oct 10, 2007 11:13 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I will say that being the fringe NBA fan that I am, Lebron's showing at game 1 may have pushed me away from pro basketball altogether. College hoops is where it's at

by Roger Dorn on Oct 10, 2007 11:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Yes. I knew that picture existed, but couldn't find it amongst all the Lebron hoopla. thank you sir. interested in Chuck's response to this.

by hans on Oct 11, 2007 1:04 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Boyz I've moved on.  We've slayed the dragon now it's time for some baseball.  Jay's right - as always - the time for trash talking and negative thoughts has come and gone.  Sorry to disappoint, but I just can't generate my homicidal rage for these Red Sox - cuz, you know they're pretty reasonable dudes.  Unlike our previous opponents.

As for LeBron - like I said before - he's dead to me.  Frankly I think you've seen the high water mark for the Cavs this year.  I don't think they'll get past the first round as long as LeBron's got the weak supporting cast and the East continues to get tougher.  And don't get me wrong, LeBron's a hell of a basketball player - he's just not much of a Clevelander.  I'm disappointed - much like you Cavs fans will be for the rest of the LeBron era.

So to hell with LeBron and all his apologists.  I've got much more important issues to deal with - like winning the first World Series in 59 years.  

GO TRIBE!!!!

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Oct 11, 2007 7:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
The difference...

C.C.'s explanation: "Oh, it's just a hat."
LeBron's explanation: "Deal with it."

by fleerdon on Oct 11, 2007 11:05 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I know people who own and frequently wear Yankees hats and don't know what team the hat is for, let alone name a few players.
"SK: Hey, imagine what Steinbrenner's statue'll be doing. SO: Cast in bronze with his wallet out."

by mmmsox on Oct 10, 2007 11:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Just wanted to come over and wish you Tribe fans best of luck in the series and share my favorite Tribe fan story.

My two buddies in So Cal at law school, both Tribe fans, invited me to an Angel v. Tribe game back in the mid 90s.  Game was great bc this was prior to Arte and opposing teams could get amazing seats and the place was filled with Tribe fans that particular night in Anaheim.

9th inning, Tribe 4, Angels 4, Angel's batter up 1 out, man on 3rd, I forget who was pitching but most likely good ole Jose Mesa, doing his best goatee d Budda impersonation.  Everyone is pumped at the game.  Drinking cervezas, place is rocking, both sides are having a great time at the game.

1-1 count, Erstad hits a foul ball to Manny's side of the outfield, pretty deep, but definately foul.  Manny catches the ball, 2 outs, the runner at third tags, comes home, scores easily. Manny makes no attempt to throw him out whatsoever.  He thought there was three outs and extra innings.

Game over.

My buddies are just silent, drop their heads and we make for the exit.  Out in the parking lot, still not one word, not a "hey close game, great game", no "well get em tomorrow night", nothing.  

Dead, creepy silence.

Matt, one of the Tribes guys, gets to his car, opens the trunk, pulls out a Hockey stick walks over to one of the over head parking lot lamp that dot the entire lot and smashes his hockey stick about a hundred times until it shatters.  His face is contorted, screaming F*K, FK, F*Kin Manny...  This continues for a good two minutes or until the stick is nothing but splinters in his hand.

Well, I just met this guy about a months ago at the orientation for law school and had never seen such uncontrolled rage.  He was usually studying or reading a book, never bothering anyone.  Hell, until then I had never heard him swear.  

The look in his eyes is best equated to Mel Gibson's stare after that first battle in "Braveheart" and i still have a two hour drive back to the west side in LA traffic.

He walks back to the car, composes himself and says, "Sorry bro, I needed to get that out..."

"I'm a Redsox fan man, no worries."

Best of luck, GO SOX!

by SoxAcumen on Oct 10, 2007 11:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Yeah, I can relate to that. F-ing Manny.

by ManchildinBeantown on Oct 11, 2007 12:03 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks guys
Here's to civil conversation. We know we have our share of asshats in the stands. I don't know how many times I've wanted to slap some dingus next to me babbling about "Francoma", etc. So I'd like to apologize for their behavior in advance, but I hope to contribute to the conversation in a positive way.

I said it over on OTM and I'll say it here. If there was a team I was okay losing to, it's the Tribe. (Maybe the Cubs too, I mean we can sympathize with 'em) You've worked hard and did I mention you have great taste in Right Fielders?

Watching the Yankee meltdown was priceless, and Carmona and Sabathia are undeniably awesome.

That said, I hope to be singing "Sweet Caroline" in the middle of the 8th. GO SOX!

by OTMsdkramer on Oct 11, 2007 8:56 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Thanks guys
Great taste in right fielders?  Do Sox fans have a thing for Franklin Gutierrez?

by Matt in LA on Oct 11, 2007 10:47 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Thanks guys
I bet Trot is just a bit more malicious with the pie when it's headed Gutz's way.

by Matt in LA on Oct 11, 2007 11:38 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Jay, what a wonderful, well written and thoughtful piece. The only thing I've ever hated is the obnoxious bandwagon Sox fans. yes, all good teams have them, it's just that Sox fans have more and they're more tenacious (read: obnoxious) than most others.

That said, I have nothing but respect for true Red Sox fans, especially aftyer having read and posted on OTM the last couple of days.

Thanks, Jay. This post honestly made me rethink my approach to Sox fans.

Also!

I don't think this means we should let our guard down! GO TRIBE!!!

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 11, 2007 12:15 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
How does it get any better than this?  The two teams who shared the best record in the American League (not to mention MLB in general) will be duking it out in a best of 7 for the American League Championship.  This is how it's supposed to play out.

When the Red Sox played the Tribe the last time, it was at the Jake, July 23-26.  Four games.  The Red Sox took 3 out of 4, but man, that was a memorable series for the Red Sox.  Jon Lester made his 2007 debut after coming back from cancer for the first game and beat Jake Westbrook 6-2.  The fourth game was a slugfest.  The Red Sox shelled Cliff Lee, who tipped his cap to the booing fans as he was pulled in the 5th inning.  Kason Gabbard couldn't deal with the prosperity of a 9-1 lead, and was pulled after 4 2/3 innings after giving up 5 runs and walking 3.  Julian Tavarez took over, gave up 4 runs (0 ER), and suddenly it was 12-9 Boston.  The Red Sox got two more runs while the Tribe's comeback was halted by Hideki Okajima and Javier Lopez, who combined to allow 1 hit in the final 2 innings.

But the two middle games were the absolute best.  It didn't matter who your team was - these were two fantastic games.  Game 2 was the Red Sox's annual look at C.C. Sabathia, opposed by Daisuke Matsuzaka.  The Red Sox beat Sabathia, 1-0.  It was a classic pitcher's duel, and you thought it couldn't get any better than that.  Sure, the lack of run support is always disconcerting, but we all know good pitching beats good hitting.  Sabathia: 7 IP, 5 H, ER, 0 BB, 7 K.  Matsuzaka: 7 IP, 4 H, 0 ER, 3 BB, 5 K.

So, could it get any better?

Sure it could!  This time it was the Tribe who got the one run the very next night.  Josh Beckett pitching for the Red Sox, with the Sox getting their first look at Fausto Carmona since last season when David Ortiz hit a walk-off home run against him.  Red Sox fans knew though, that Carmona was a much different pitcher this year, but they didn't know he'd be that good.

The only offense to speak of in that game was a 3rd inning home run by Franklin Gutierrez off Beckett.

Beckett:  8 IP, 4 H, ER, 0 BB, 7 K.  It was one of his best performances all season.  Of course, the Red Sox would see his BEST game just over a week ago against the Angels in ALDS Game 1.

Carmona:  8 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 2 BB, 6 K.  Red Sox ace against the Tribe's #2, and Carmona just slightly out-pitches Beckett, with a little help from Joe Borowski, closing the game in the 9th.  Fausto opened a lot of people's eyes this year, and that wasn't even his best game.  Just look at ALDS Game 2 agaisnt the Yankees.  He was brilliant.

Neither the Red Sox nor Indians had any idea then that they'd be playing each other in the ALCS, and neither thought they'd share the best record in Baseball.  But they will play each other tomorrow night, and it is going to be a fantastic series.

I'm a Red Sox fan, which made watching the Indians/Yankees ALDS was a real fun experience both in rooting for the Indians and realizing just how formidable a team the Tribe is.  Living in southern Maine, I never got a good look at Cleveland except the games played at the Jake in July (Thank you, unbalanced schedule).  There was a series in May where the Sox took 2 of 3, but those 2 wins featured Curt Schilling beating Lee, and Beckett beating Jeremy Sowers.  Paul Byrd beat Matsuzaka in the third game of that series.

The only relevant games this season from a pitching and match-up standpoint were:  The last game in May (Byrd vs. Matsuzaka), and the first three in Cleveland in July.  The others don't count as well because you won't be seeing Kason Gabbard, Jeremy Sowers, or Cliff Lee.

You take those four games, and guess what?  The Red Sox won 2 of those games, and the Indians won 2.  Amazing to realize the games that decided home-field advantage featured a starter on one or both sides either not on the playoff roster or not even on the team anymore.

The overall point I'm making today is that there is no World Series for either of these teams until the final out is recorded.  This is the Series right here, and it is likely to come down to a Game 7.  Both teams have had terrific seasons, and both teams have reason to believe they are going to go all the way.  I thought Cleveland would be an easier team to go through as opposed to the Yankees, but as I watched them play the Yankees, I realized it might be the other way around.  Needless to say, a series with Cleveland and a series with New York are two very different animals, and I never wanted the Red Sox to play the Yankees and I still don't.  This year, the Red Sox don't need to go through the Yankees to be the best team, just like Cleveland didn't need to.  Boston and Cleveland share the same regular season record, and it will be one hell of a series to determine just who the better team is.

The way it looks right now, the ALCS might as well be the World Series.  In that case, I hope the NLCS will be as good as advertised, and the winner, whether it be Arizona or Colorado, be on their A game when they go to either Cleveland or Boston, because I will be very disappointed if the NL gets swept again.  I want the World Series to go seven games, so in retrospect we can look back at the ALCS as a stepping stone, and not the actual Series itself.

So far, the two LCS match-ups look to be terrific for baseball and an absolute joy for me, a baseball fan.

by Ish on Oct 11, 2007 12:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I'll drink to that.

Very good point in regards to the pitchers used in the regular season series as opposed to the pitchers we'll see in the coming week.

by nickjs21 on Oct 11, 2007 1:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Outstanding post.

I am currently wrestling with two competing ideas:

  1. Any seven-game series is a crapshoot, and
  2. No way can the NL rep possibly beat either the Tribe or the Sox.

I'd wager that this is your series right here.  But then, that would get so far ahead of myself as a Tribe fan, and that would be a mistake...

Anyway, thanks for the thoughtful post, and here's to plenty of second-best luck for your Sox in this series!  ;)

by tabler84 on Oct 11, 2007 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
"No way can the NL rep possibly beat either the Tribe or the Sox."

That's what people said last year, too.

"Nice shooting. Don't get cocky"
--Han Solo

by woodsmeister on Oct 11, 2007 1:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Not to take anything away from the Cards, but the Detroit pitching staff's collective amnesia regarding HOW TO FIELD was a pretty large contributor in that series as well.

by zempf on Oct 11, 2007 2:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I have friends who are Yankees fans and Red Sox fans.  Talking to them about the games has added to my enjoyment of the series, win or lose.

But the smugness of the bandwagon Red Sox fans IS worse than other bandwagon fans.  So I do hate them.  Sorry.  

What I am going to take out of the original post is this:  It is OK to hate Red Sox fans, but I am not going to cloud my enjoyment of the Tribe, or of what will be a great series, by talking about the Red Sox fans.  I want to focus on my team, and not any other team's fans.

After this post, I mean.
 

by Buzz on Oct 11, 2007 1:29 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
Fair enough. :)

by OTMsdkramer on Oct 11, 2007 1:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
There's nothing worse than the bandwagon fan. Watching the 03 series @ a bar was terribly excruciating.

There was this girl who I knew didn't really care either way what happened during the regular season, but once the playoffs rolled around, for some reason she latched on to the Yankees. Got a Jersey...etc...etc & became the most obnoxious preson I've ever met. Yelling at Sox fans, being completely rude, & arrogant... & then it happened (a f'n b). I wanted to punch her in the face as I walked out of the bar & she snickered & veered at me...

Uninformed, ubnoxious, bandwagon fans are the worst... doesn't matter the team... Even for the sox.

by kevindineen on Oct 11, 2007 2:30 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I agree.  Seeing the Red Sox at the top of the local 6 o'clock news (including the interviews with all the local bandwagoners on the street) is extremely annoying because the reporters and the anchors and the people being interviewed on the street are ALL bandwagoners.  But we do have to realize that the "intelligent fan" is a small minority among the typical fan base.  ESPECIALLY the Red Sox.  Red Sox Nation?  Evil Empire?  Red Sox Nation President???  They actually had a DEBATE moderated by Tim Russert of NBC's Meet the Press.  There's a point at which you need to scream, "SHUT UP AND PLAY BALL!"  Spending $40 on a "Red Sox Nation Membership" is the most asinine way to spend your money.  "Make your allegiance to Red Sox Nation official."  Just shut up and watch the game.

This type of thing is why the NLCS will have low ratings.  Most people (especially in the big markets) only care about their team and not about baseball in general.  Whew.  Had to get that out there.  I digress.

by Ish on Oct 11, 2007 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I'm just gonna say that though I'm a Red Sox fan, I'm a big fan of the Indians, their players and the way the team is run.  And while, of course, I hope that the Sox leave you all broken, weeping men, if that doesn't happen, good luck in the WS, and here's to two successful seasons in 2008!

Helps that I have little but disdain for basically the entire rest of the AL Central, to be sure.

by NBarnes on Oct 11, 2007 3:28 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
I suppose it helps that Sawx fans have decades of intimate knowledge about brokenness and weeping.
"Nice shooting. Don't get cocky." - Han Solo

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Oct 11, 2007 4:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Higher Ground
You aren't wrong.  I remember watching my father watch the '86 Series on TV....

by NBarnes on Oct 11, 2007 5:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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