Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by Pronk33 on Oct 19, 2007 3:54 PM EDT
37 comments
I don't blame C.C. Sabathia for Game 5.
Sabathia made vast improvements since Game 1 of the ALCS where he walked 5 and gave up 8 runs in 4.1 innings. There's really no comparison between the two starts, which is good news for Cleveland.
In Game 5, C.C. gave up 4 ER, 10 H, and a HR over 6 IP. The most important stat of the night was the fact he only surrendered 2 walks, while throwing 62.5% of his pitches for strikes. Again, this is a near complete turnaround from 5 walks and 51.7% pitches for strikes in his last start. Throw in 6 strikeouts and you have a solid bounce-back start for the Tribe's ace. Not great, but certainly winnable.
As encouraging as Sabathia's Game 5 seems on the surface, the numbers lie a little bit. Sabathia's more aggressive approach (more strikes, less nibbling) resulted in less walks, but his stuff was far from dominant. Instead, he gave up 10 hits and allowed at least one baserunner in every inning except the 6th. C.C. walked a thin line all night, owing a saved run to Gutz in the 1st, narrowly avoiding an additional run from Ramirez's "single" in the 3rd, and escaping from a bases loaded jam in the 5th.
Like a Joe Borowski save, the bottom line is what matters most. C.C. got the job done tonight by giving his team a chance to win.
I'm still on the fence as to whether Wedge should have brought Sabathia back out for the 7th inning. Wedge had to have known he was playing with fire by having Sabathia face the top of Boston's lineup again. The 7th would have been C.C.'s fourth time facing Pedroia, Youkilis, and Ortiz. Based on the lead-off double and triple from said batters, Sabathia wasn't fooling anyone. At 106 stress-filled pitches, Sabathia probably didn't have much left in the tank and may have been struggling with his focus.
I understand why Wedge stuck with C.C., but it was still a very risky decision. Wedge said in a post-game interview if he had pulled C.C. after six, Betancourt would have had to pitch two innings and the remaining reliever matchups would have been difficult to deal with; these were things Wedge did not think benefited the team in the long run. Wedge also cited Sabathia was having his best start of the playoffs and didn't want to hamper his rhythm or confidence. He felt Sabathia could handle the large pitch count, citing past starts where he threw 120 pitches.
I emphasized Wedge's long term mentality to the situation because I feel it's important in understanding his decision. The team has been riding Betancourt the entire postseason. Betancourt leads the regular relievers with 6.1 innings pitched and has appeared in four of the five ALCS games. Jensen Lewis is not far behind with 5.1 IP. This may not seem like much, but you have to rest these guys at some point. Many people will point to the two off-days dividing the series as enough rest, but Wedge knows how his pitchers feel better than we do. I think some of the bullpen guys are feeling a little drained, otherwise Wedge would not have expressed concern when citing his reasons for sticking with Sabathia.
Wedge did not concede the game in the 7th inning; he took a calculated risk that backfired. Further proof of this is Betancourt having to pitch anyway in an attempt to preserve the 3-1 deficit Sabathia left behind.
I was a little hesitant to post this diary, but I was curious what you guys thought. I'm not trying to place the blame just on Wedge, as the offense and Beckett himself obviously played significant roles, too. Did Wedge make the right move or did he overplay concerns about the bullpen, given the situation? What did you want to see happen with the pitching in Game 5?
0 recs |
37 comments
Email
Print
Comments
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
It made no sense to use CC against Youkillis (who had already hit a homerun)with a man on base.
That's when Betancourt should have brought in. You can't expect CC to get out of another jam when he is over 100 pitches. That is irresponsible, IMO.
by Toxicadam on Oct 19, 2007 4:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by NickFantana on Oct 19, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally, I thought Betancourt or Lewis
Hello everyone,
I can understand why Wedge did what he did with CC, but personally, I would have gone to Lewis (probably) or Betancourt to start that 7th inning for these reasons:
a. CC had thrown 106 pitches, many of them stress-filled, as he only retired the side in order once (I believe, and it was the bottom part of the order in the 6th.)
b. We had had an off-day the day before Game 5.
c. We had an off-day the following day.
Therefore, the bullpen was fully rested in my opinion; yes, Betancourt has been used quite often, and yes, there is a concern about him being overused, but being that he had a day off the day before and would have a day off tomorrow, I probably would have used him. If not, then use Lewis - he's been the 2nd-best reliever only to Betancourt and you had Pedroia and Youkilis the first two hitters up. Then you could either stick with Lewis to face Ortiz, intentionally walk Ortiz to get Manny (probably wouldn't do that, as Manny has done some damage against Lewis,) or bring in Betancourt to face Ortiz.
That 7th inning was arguably the back-breaker for us - when the 7th inning started, it was only 2-1. That certainly was manageable even with Beckett on the mound, but once it became 4-1, the odds became that much greater of us being unable to come back from that deficit, considering how we were unable to hit Beckett (I sure hope the Indians make the adjustment to target one of his pitches and go for them, because there's a decent to strong chance that we will see him in Game 7. We need to put up better at-bats against him than we have been - Hafner especially - if he comes through in the 1st inning of Game 5, I suspect Beckett probably doesn't go 8 innings, because he probably gives up 3-4 runs in that first inning.)
Personally, I would not have overextended my "ace" who hasn't been dominating in the postseason and didn't dominate in this start, throwing many high-pressure pitches throughout. And, as mentioned, it was the 4th time he was facing the lineup, making it all the more reason why Wedge should have probably gone to either Lewis or Betancourt to begin the 7th.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
by indiansfan on Oct 21, 2007 4:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Slightly OT: I was most disappointed with the defense being "displayed" last night, actually.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 19, 2007 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
I was thinking Raffy B could go 2 innings, but OK, let's concede that he was only available for 1 and Lewis wasn't available at all. I still think you bring in Betancourt just to get through Petunia/Youk/Ortiz and maybe Manny in the 7th, and then go with Mastny against the bottom of the order in the 8th, and then play the 9th by ear with either Mastny or Perez (or JoeBo, had we had the lead).
CC was clearly gassed at the end of the 6th inning; it looked to me like he was overthrowing his fastball and everything was high and outside and he was topping out at 95 instead of 98-99 like earlier in the game. He just got away with it because he was facing Crisp and Lugo.
I don't want to sound like I'm down on CC -- nothing could be further from the truth. I thought it was a fantastic outing. He just got matched up against a DOMINANT Beckett.
Basically I'd chalk this loss up 90% to Beckett and 10% to Wedge (and Perez). Honestly, no matter what move Wedge made, it's still unlikely we would have tied the game against Beckett and Papelbon; Wedge's moves just made it extremely unlikely.
by mrich on Oct 19, 2007 4:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by JulioBernazard on Oct 19, 2007 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
If Grady has a good day in the field, the game is still 1-1 and we might still be playing in the 54th inning or something.
by Ryan Kelsey on Oct 20, 2007 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
The difference between CC and Beckett is enormous. I mean, it's sick. CC has the body language of a guy who's afraid he might get shelled. Beckett has the body language of a guy who is going to shut you down.
From 300 feet away I could see Beckett's curveball drop off the table, 12 to 6, disgusting. CC doesn't have a weapon close to that good.
And argue all you want that Sabathia made improvements, but I'll respond with this: he failed again. If he throws -- god forbid -- a shutout last night, it erases all of our bad memories. Instead, he was hilariously lucky to get through six innings on 2 runs. I mean, 12 baserunners in 6 innings is embarrassing stuff.
And you might as well give him four walks, cause he hit two batters. Control was supposed to be the mark of his evolution this year.
Everyone in that ballpark -- I mean everyone, as far as I could tell -- was stunned that Wedge brought him out for the 7th. He was done, and he was scared of the top of their lineup to begin with. Then, we were all mystified when Wedge left him in to face Youkilis.
The good news is that tomorrow night, Fausto Carmona is going to demonstrate what it means to have your act together and mow hitters down.
by tabler84 on Oct 19, 2007 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by Pronk33 on Oct 19, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by jjfoosk on Oct 19, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by hans on Oct 19, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
And screw the difference between CC and Becket; what about the difference between CC and every other pitcher on the staff this postseason? All of them have had serious confidence. CC has not. If we get to the series, do we play him in Game 1? I know Wedge's answer is yes, and if he plays well, Wedge will be called a genius. But I say no.
by Chief WaJew on Oct 19, 2007 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by Chief WaJew on Oct 19, 2007 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by tabler84 on Oct 19, 2007 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
And I can appreciate the "John Wayne blasting through the swinging doors" approach but you need to realize that John Wesley Hardin and Wild Bill Hickok and Wyatt Earp stop in here every now and then - you just don't know who you're fucking with here partner.
So, let me give you a piece of advice - drop the Jew reference in the nom de blog and I might drop my built in negative response to every one of your posts. And again, you don't know who you're fucking with. Just tone it down, realize that some of the guys here have been following the Tribe since Aaron Boone's grandfather was playing for the Tribe and Cleveland football back to the days of the Cleveland Rams. And one more thing: don't draw down on any of these guys - cuz some of 'em do this for a living and are among the best feature writer's I've ever read - they'll cut you into bite size pieces.
So, let's get back to winning this here pennant so I can bust balls with my Bostonian in-laws.
by mauichuck on Oct 20, 2007 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by Turkmenbashi on Oct 19, 2007 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by tabler84 on Oct 19, 2007 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Not true. C.C's slider is just as unbelievable. Problem is, he can't seem to throw it for strikes in the postseason. I think if you re-watch C.C's performance, you'll see that he has different mechanics for the slider and the fastball. It seems like he's trying to get more break on the slider, but tipping his pitch in the process. Its also doesn't help that he can't a locate ANYTHING on the inside part of the place.
Painful, but true.
Wedge's explanation is absolute crap. He said he didn't want to pitch Betancourt for 2 innings. Fine. Don't! So Perez pitches in a 2-1 game instead of a 4-1 game. Is that so terrible? Sheesh.
Word. Fausto's problems in Fenway had to do with an excellent approach. They cheated a little on the inside pitch and ensured that any grounder was foul. Expect Fausto to bounce back.
by crazymoloh on Oct 19, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Though I have a feeling that Fausto's pure stuff is so good that it won't matter.
by tabler84 on Oct 19, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by emil minty on Oct 19, 2007 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Here's the bottom line: we've had guys who showed up for the play-offs and guys that haven't. In the end we'll have more show up than the BoSox.
Right now, CC doesn't look like a guy who showed up - but Westbrook and Byrd do. Who woulda guessed?
by mauichuck on Oct 19, 2007 4:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
It makes a difference in the number of runs the hitters need to drive in to tie the game/take the lead. That's why this diary exists.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 19, 2007 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Most of the time when we question Wedge, he's got some kind of defense. But in this case there is none.
That matters, but the good news is that it won't cost us the series. I am looking forward to CC having yet another shot when he starts game one next Wednesday. I will pulling for him with everything I've got. I'm just no longer confident that he'll hurl a gem.
by tabler84 on Oct 19, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
The starting pitching advantage now swings into Cleveland's favor. You don't base evaluations on just one game (so look at game #2 and #3 of this series, but don't conclude) both Carmona and Westbrook have pitched better than Schilling and Matzuzaka (also, Lester isn't actually that good, so if he goes in game seven he's no better, and in fact probably a worse pitcher than Dice-K). The Indians should be favored in these two games and should win once barring the "luck" of baseball getting in the way.
by hans on Oct 19, 2007 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by hans on Oct 19, 2007 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
I think Fausto's game two start was marred a bit by 1) some sicker-than-usual movement that he had a hard time harnessing for strikes, and 2) a lack of willingness to target the outside corner. He'll be his usual self tomorrow.
by tabler84 on Oct 19, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
No. This is classic case of Wedge feeling the pressure of managing by the 'conventional' manager's guide. Hell, don't pitch Betancourt at all. Surely, Mastny and Perez could have done a better than a C.C who .....
(1) already had 100+ pitches
(2) loaded the bases the last time he faced the top of the order
(3) kept the game close till then
No one's holding a gun to his head to use ONLY Betancourt in a 2-1 game. Use Mastny in a 2-1 game for all I care. Don't feel like you have to use a certan pitcher at a certain time.
by crazymoloh on Oct 19, 2007 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Hey, I don't remember our offense scoring any more runs after the first inning, do you? We took their best shot at winning a game (pitching Beckett) and don't have to face him again now. Win one of three games is all we have to do. They're best chance of winning against us was yesterday, we have the advantage in the next two games. We also have Raffy B rested and ready to go...like we did in the Yanks series when Wedge used the bums (Fultz, Mastny) vs them in game #3 and had the real weapons ready for the closeout when the Yanks already used up their best arms (Joba and Hughes).
Wedge will have to do something a little more boneheaded for me to start blasting his management in the playoffs.
by hans on Oct 19, 2007 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by palcal on Oct 19, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
He trotted C.C out there because he didn't want to pitch Betancourt for two innings? Forst of all, what do the two things have to do with each other? Pull C.C after 6 innings and let the bullpen (not necessarily Betancourt) take over with a 2-1 deficit instead of a 4-1 deficit. If the non-Betancourt bullpen blows it, they blow it. Atleast you gave your team a better chance of winning.
What I meant by 'conventional' was the fact that he felt compelled to use a particular reliever because the deficit was 'x' number of runs instead of 'y' number of runs.
If we knock Matsuzaka out of the game Beckett comes back on short rest.
Small difference between the Game 3 matchup and the Game 7 rematch. Its on the road! Like it or not, Westbrook won't have the friendly Indians groundstaff on hand to cut the infield grass a little longer or dampen the basepaths. There's a reason pitchers like Westbrook and Wang ALWAYS have better home numbers than road numbers. The home/road split has persisted EVERY YEAR that Westbrook has been a starter.
What are you talking about? Didn't we use Betancourt yesterday?
Wait till we have a save situation with the heart of the Boston lineup coming up and Betancourt fully rested and unused in the bullpen.
p.s: I love a good series. The baseball (and non-Cleveland) fan in me loves that the series will continue.
by crazymoloh on Oct 19, 2007 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by hans on Oct 20, 2007 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by crazymoloh on Oct 20, 2007 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
This was the only game over a three-day stretch.
And if we win this round, it's at least two off-days until the next.
by Jay on Oct 20, 2007 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
by Roger Dorn on Oct 19, 2007 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
This was not a game 7. Wedge saw that his batters were intimidated by Beckett. He was looking to the weekend -- he has a better chance of winning one of the next 2 than he did game 5, so he did not want to use his relievers futilely.
by palcal on Oct 19, 2007 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Yeah. There's no getting over the fact that two runs was all Boston needed.
by crazymoloh on Oct 19, 2007 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Thoughts on C.C. and Wedge
Look, we were lucky to get one run yesterday, let alone the three it woulda taken to actually win the game. Exactly what is the difference if we pitch Betancourt/Perez/Jensen and shut them out for the last four innings or if we pitch Fultz/Mastny/JoBo and give up 13 more runs. We still only scored one run the whole damn game.
CC only pitches - he doesn't hit. This was a team loss, once Beckett shut us down it was all over. So, thank the baseball gods that this isn't a one game deal, cuz I don't think our best pitcher can beat their best pitcher. But I do believe our three best pitchers can beat their three best pitchers. Let's see if I'm right.
by mauichuck on Oct 19, 2007 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
Sweet Baboo
Certain photos copyright © 2010 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
