C.C. wins the Cy Young

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Fausto finished 4th, says Rotoworld:

C.C. Sabathia claimed the AL Cy Young Award on Tuesday, receiving 19 of the 28 first-place votes.

As it should have been. Sabathia came in second on eight of the remaining nine ballots. One writer obviously didn't take his or her responsibility seriously and left him off the ballot entirely. Josh Beckett, who pitched as well as Sabathia but did so in 40 fewer innings, finished second with eight first-place votes and 86 points, 33 back of Sabatahia. AL ERA leader John Lackey claimed the remaining first-place vote and ranked third with 36 points. Also receiving votes were Fausto Carmona (7 points), Erik Bedard (1), Roy Halladay (1), Johan Santana (1) and Justin Verlander (1).

It's all meaningless except for the extra cash we have to pay him and the resume builder he can present to other teams. Still, as someone who has been watching him pitch since 2001 (or, more aptly, throw since 2001 and then learn to pitch), I'm very proud of him.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:11 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

He gets a $2MM bonus or raise or soemthing next year, right?

Congrats big fella.

by cheech99 on Nov 13, 2007 2:11 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

The PD says $2 million, Cot's says either $3M or $2.75M, I can't figure out which.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:13 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Good he deserved it.

I hope we can afford him after this.

by KevinV on Nov 13, 2007 2:12 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Here is a breakdown of the vote from the BBWAA website:

http://www.baseballwriters.org/awards/2007/2007_AL_cy.html

Player Club 1st 2nd 3rd Points
C.C. Sabathia Cleveland Indians 19 8 -- 119
Josh Beckett Boston Red Sox 8 14 4 86
John Lackey Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim 1 5 16 36
Fausto Carmona Cleveland Indians -- 1 4 7
Eric Bedard Baltimore Orioles -- -- 1 1
Roy Halladay Toronto Blue Jays -- -- 1 1
Johan Santana Minnesota Twins -- -- 1 1
Justin Verlander Detroit Tigers -- -- 1 1

C.C was listed first on 19 of the 28 ballots, whereas Fausto received one second and four third places votes.

by millionairesrow on Nov 13, 2007 2:12 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Wow - was I ever wrong. I thought for sure that the voters would be seduced by Beckett's 20 wins and give him the award. Gotta eat some crow on this one.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 13, 2007 2:17 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Were it not for the fact that CC was only one win behind Beckett, I would agree.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Great news for CC and as a Tribe fan how can you not feel good about a Cleveland player(draft to finished product) getting recognized as the best, even if it does cost us more money. I imagine however that like Dirk Nowitzki in the NBA last year, the award will be bittersweet owing to CC's post-season struggles.

by APV on Nov 13, 2007 2:19 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Bravo!

by crazymoloh on Nov 13, 2007 2:20 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Hope we don't wait another 35 years for the next one...

by DixonCayne on Nov 13, 2007 2:22 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

The original link on cleveland.com was broken (it's fixed now) because the end of the HTML read "bostons_beckett_beats_out_sabathia.html."

Always be prepared.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:25 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

ahh, the optimism of clevleanders. clevelandians? clevelandites? clevelandanoans?

by Brick. on Nov 13, 2007 2:27 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

With all the great teams and great players to come through Jacobs Field over the last 15 years, this is the first "major" award an Indian has won. No MVP for Manny, Thome, Belle, Alomars, Vic, or Hafner. No ROY for Lofton or Manny. No MOY for Hargrove or Wedge (for a few more days, anyway). No Cy Young for Colon or "the best lefthander in baseball" Cliff Lee. CC winning in sweet and a long time coming for the organization.

by JesseAK on Nov 13, 2007 2:27 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

not your point, but two exec's of the year by shap. didn't hart get one too?

by Brick. on Nov 13, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Just FYI, both MOY are tomorrow.

Also! NL Cy Young is Thursday, AL MVP is the 19th, and NL MVP is the 20th. It would seem now that the NL MVP is the only one without a clear front-runner.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Sandy Alomar won the ROY for us in 1990. It's no MVP or CYY, but it was something.

That wasn't at the Jake, but since you called out "Alomars" i figure it's fair game.

by KevinV on Nov 13, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Correct. By making it the Alomars I was thinking of Sandy's 1997 season. I always thought that if he had that magical season as a catcher for the Yanks or the Sox the media would have led people to believe that Thurman Munson had risen from the dead to carry the team to the playoffs.

by JesseAK on Nov 13, 2007 3:39 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

No MOY for Charlie Manuel, either.

by VA tribe fan on Nov 14, 2007 2:03 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Bout time we win an award. Shame that this ratchets up the price to retain him another million or two.

LeCavs.com!
We never surrender!

by Matt in LA on Nov 13, 2007 2:32 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

So who are the two writers who did not think Beckett was one of the three best pitchers and the one writer who did not have C.C. in the top three?

Would be interesting to understand their "logic".

by IndyDave on Nov 13, 2007 2:37 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I agree with the general sentiment around here. It was very close between him and Beckett, and Beckett probably deserved it a bit more. Regardless, it's about damn time we got one of these things, isn't it?

Congrats to CC. Here's for hoping he can do it again next year.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 13, 2007 2:38 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

It is about damn time we got one of these things. Finally one of our guys benefited from the media pile-on over the last three weeks of the season that goes a long way toward determining the winner. The media pile on cost Belle the MVP in 1995. Hell, it cost our great hitters MVPs due to the "the team is so good you could remove him from the lineup and they would lose nothing" narrative.

by JesseAK on Nov 13, 2007 2:42 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Also!

And I'm not sure why I subject myself to this crap, but it sure is fun to see the Red Sox fans whining on the ESPN boards.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 13, 2007 2:54 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

You shouldn't even be reading those boards.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:59 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I just went in there to take a look...can't say how many comments were something like "this is crap, bs etc.." becket (since quite a few "fans" can't even spell right) should have won.

Its simple, its a regular season award and all of us would trade a Cy for a ring. Simple as that.

by cclemens31 on Nov 13, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I've seen a lot of gnashing of teeth on other boards as well.

I'm getting a lot of glee out of it.

Will children still wake up early to eagerly check the sports page to see who is leading the league in holds?

by smtp on Nov 13, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Of course you agree with them. Slam! :)

by CBusSteve on Nov 13, 2007 4:26 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Ha ha yeah, well in my defense I did say (and believe) that it could have gone either way and still be justified. Point being that there shouldn't be sour grapes from the runner-up, especially if that guy has a WS ring instead.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 13, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Just to play devil's advocate here, isn't it possible that a lot of the whining (from more informed fans, anyway) could be caused by how close it was? I doubt too many Twins fans are complaining that Santana should have gotten the award this year. But since Sabathia vs. Beckett could have gone either way, supporters of both have pretty legitimate arguments. I'm not sure if that causes more whining or just more justified whining though.

by VA tribe fan on Nov 14, 2007 2:11 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I'd gladly meet one of these "more informed fans" because everything I'm reading says "But he won 20 games!" There's no other number that apparently matters which tells me they don't have a stronger argument.

Beckett is a great pitcher who I'd gladly take to start a any pitching staff. But the simple fact of the matter is that CC had a better year - even if it was only slightly better.

Apparently headed towards a solid 2nd and 3rd in the LGT Fantasy Leagues. Eh...

by mjmarble on Nov 14, 2007 9:40 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

the simple fact of the matter is that CC had a better year

Well let me add my name to the list of wet-blanket pendejos you've been castigating elsewhere. No CC did not have a better year than Josh Beckett, he had a better regular season. Overall, from April to October, Beckett was better.

From April to September, CC was arguably better. And that's the crux of the Boston whine. Many view the Cy Young winner as the best pitcher for the entire year - not just the regular season.

Frankly I - probably like CC himself - was very disappointed in CC's post season performance. Which dampens my excitement about him receiving this award. It's nice and all, but I'd rather he finished second in the CY voting and had pitched his ass off in October.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 10:57 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I just noticed that Wang received no votes of any kind. That's pretty cool.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 2:59 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

"Wang cut off after votes tallied"

by Brick. on Nov 13, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I loved that. And MLB.com had his picture next to C.C. and Beckett as the number three in the preview article. Hah!

by Voltaire on Nov 13, 2007 3:33 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Yeah, and their preview article made it sound like it was a Wang/Beckett race until CC "drove a wedge" between the two. I had a good laugh at that one.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 13, 2007 3:37 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I guess John Kruk wasn't voting.

by crazymoloh on Nov 13, 2007 4:24 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Kruk should never be allowed to vote for anything. Unless someone finds a way to give him a brain. Even half a brain would do. Something besides the meaningless analysis and general knee jerk, fresh off the street, I knew more about baseball when I was in T-ball junk he expounds. Seriously, whenever he opens his mouth it's like he simply scanned the headlines of a few online sports sites for the garbage that comes out.

Apparently headed towards a solid 2nd and 3rd in the LGT Fantasy Leagues. Eh...

by mjmarble on Nov 13, 2007 5:24 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I would allow John Kruk to vote for Doughnut of the Year. That's it.

by emd2k3 on Nov 14, 2007 11:41 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

ALSO!

Maybe Most Valuable Hair Gel.

But that is definitely it.

by emd2k3 on Nov 14, 2007 12:29 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Congrats to C.C., he deserved it. Some of Beckett's peripherals are more impressive (K/9), but 40 innings makes a huge difference, especially the way our bullpen scuffled early in the year. You can make an argument for Beckett, but this is relatively close, and it isn't a travesty either way.

Not like it's Vaughn over Belle for the '95 MVP, anyway.

by maledicta on Nov 13, 2007 3:14 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I prefer to spell it "CCy Young Award."

by JulioBernazard on Nov 13, 2007 3:55 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I was fortunate enough to be at CC's first game way back in 2001. He won it in very non-descript fashion. It's been a great pleasure watching him come along as one of the elite pitchers in all of baseball.

I hope Indians fans appreciate him if he struggles a bit next year or decides to go elsewhere.

by Toxicadam on Nov 13, 2007 4:16 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I was too, with my father. He was honestly hoping for CC to toss a no-hitter in his first start, and upset when it didn't happen.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 4:31 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Lol. To be honest, there was so much hype about him I expected at least 7 innings of shutout baseball.

We were so hungry for decent pitching prospects back then.

by Toxicadam on Nov 13, 2007 8:25 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

God yeah we were. I was very anxious. I looked at him the way a lot of people looked at LeBron.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

One of the producers at WKNR made a good point. This is part popularity contest sometimes, (see A.Belle 1995). Beckett is an ass to the media. Drops 'F bomb's with little profesional respect for the media and is just a jerk. CC has not portrayed himself in that way. I don't blame them for giving it to the good guy.

by hans on Nov 13, 2007 4:20 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Slightly off topic...

Did you click on the BBWAA page?
http://www.baseballwriters.org/awards/2007/2007_AL_cy.html

WORST color scheme ever. Put on some shades before you check that out.

LeCavs.com!
We never surrender!

by Matt in LA on Nov 13, 2007 4:40 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Not usually a stickler for web design but yowzers. I think the site design is older than the award's recipient.

by NickFantana on Nov 13, 2007 6:43 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Good for CC. He's a great guy that is one of the best pitchers in the game. Good combination!

I just had surgery on my labrum so please excuse the typing errors.

by gahnki on Nov 13, 2007 4:46 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Congrats for CC. It's good that he got the recognition for the outstanding year he had.

Apparently headed towards a solid 2nd and 3rd in the LGT Fantasy Leagues. Eh...

by mjmarble on Nov 13, 2007 5:26 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Good for C.C to win it and he deserved it but I would take Beckett and his attitude over C.C every day and in every way.

Winner vs Not so much of a winner.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 13, 2007 7:12 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I'm so angry at you right now I'm not sure what to say.

I just had surgery on my labrum so please excuse the typing errors.

by gahnki on Nov 13, 2007 7:18 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Does this move our offseason from a D+ to a C-?

by Roger Dorn on Nov 13, 2007 8:56 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

It takes real talent to rip a pitcher on the day he wins the Cy Young Award. My regards.

by Ryan on Nov 13, 2007 9:28 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

So when do people stop acting like these kinds of posts are cute and contributing to discourse?

I've grown pretty tired of the "crazy guy at the end of the bar" schtick.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 13, 2007 10:05 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

agreed.

by hans on Nov 13, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I also agree with this. The contribution is what precisely?

by NickFantana on Nov 13, 2007 11:38 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I also think it is quite tiresome. LGT is all about raising the discourse (TM) and this isn't helping one smidgen.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 12:41 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Can Ryan or Jay make "Raising the Discourse(TM)" the new header?

by emd2k3 on Nov 14, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Beckett just knows how to win.

by hans on Nov 13, 2007 10:09 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Remember when E5 was banned and we didn't have someone constantly reminding us how awful everything related to the Cleveland Indians was?

Those were the salad days.

by CU Adam on Nov 13, 2007 10:16 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

First off, I'm thrilled for CC. I was also at his first game against Baltimore back in 2001 - sitting next to my brother and loving every minute. What a treat it's been to see him overcome his shortcomings and become a great pitcher.

Also! I'm beginning to suspect that E5 is actually Jay's alter-ego in the mode of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. Their personae are near diametric opposites and I've never seen them in the same place at the same time. The main shortcoming of this theory is that I've seen Jay respond to E5's posts.

Hmm...multiple personalities? The Three Faces of Jay?

by Seattle Tribe Fan on Nov 14, 2007 12:15 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I think it is worth pointing out that the Cy Young is not given to the best pitcher in purely objective terms. IMHO the major difference between Beckett and CC was innings and CG. Approx 4+ extra games worth and for that he has one less win.... It may be that Beckett was pulled from some games to keep him fresh for regular and post season. He certainly was in a position to go deeper in several of his wins and for that he gets penalized in the Cy voting. So Beckett ends up with 1 CG and a huge post season and CC has 4 CG but no gas in October. Nice work Wedgie!
Make no mistake, CC deserves the Cy Young if it based on subjective criteria.

by eastcoastbias on Nov 13, 2007 8:42 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

One more point, who the hell left CC off the ballot altogether? That guy should be exposed for the fraud he is.

by eastcoastbias on Nov 13, 2007 9:01 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Very good question that I'd be interested in finding out the answer to.

by Fundamentals on Nov 14, 2007 6:57 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I count at least four logical falacies, and I'm not sure if I agree that CC was "burnt out" for October. It's possible, sure, and it is convenient for me to excuse CC's ineffectiveness with that explanation, but something tells me this is fundamental attribution error.

Look, if they include the postseason Beckett's the obvious choice, but that's not how it's done. I consider it a virtual tie, and in this case it went to CC. Does there have to be an explanation for every g'damned thing that ever happens?

by homelytourist on Nov 13, 2007 9:14 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Does there have to be an explanation for every g'damned thing that ever happens?

Well, yes there does. If you say my arguments are poorly constructed then attack them and I may agree with you. I am interested in having my positions attacked with evidence and reason. Not just shutting down the discussion because it has been arbitrarily decided that the argument has been settled.

by eastcoastbias on Nov 13, 2007 9:59 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Okay. In the month of September, Beckett threw more innings and pitches than CC. One case against saying CC burnt out.

Check out the Nate Silver article on ccnsi.com. He makes a number of good points pointing out the problems with attributing CC's problems in the postseason to fatigue.

by Roger Dorn on Nov 13, 2007 10:11 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Silver makes some very good points but innings have a cumulative effect. I have no way to disprove his thoughts on close pitch counts in September but an 8.80 ERA had to be due to something, no? If the bullpen is improved next year, I predict a lower IP for Sabathia.

by eastcoastbias on Nov 13, 2007 10:28 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I've always followed the school that IP are irrelevant. Pitch counts are where it's at.

Should a 30-pitch inning and a 4-pitch inning go down in the record books as putting the same amount of stress on someone's arm?

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 10:36 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I would even discount just pitches thrown. I would look more at the percentage of high stress pitches. I am sure C.C had many more high stress pitches then Beckett. Had the Indians offense or bullpen been better he could have thrown less HIGH STRESS pitches and been fresher for the post season. That said I feel C.C struggles in the post season were much more mental then physical. Even if you have a tired arm you don't walk people you just have less velocity or break on you pitches and C.C did not have those problems. I believe he was overthrowing and trying to hard to be Da Man instead of being a man. It was his first time pitching this many innings and pitching in the post season. I expect him to come back stronger next year after a serious fitness change this off season and a refocus on mental awareness on the mound.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 13, 2007 10:42 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Well, I don't exactly agree with you, but we're close. Pitches after a certain point of fatigue are dangerous. As in, throwing while tired (after a hundred or so pitches) puts exponentially more strain on the arm. I think you're thinking more along the lines of the slurve he throws with men on 2nd and 3rd as opposed to the slurve he throws with the bases empty.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 10:46 PM EST up reply actions

A few more thoughts regarding the IP & pitch

counts!

Hello everyone,

Some other numbers to keep in mind regarding CC & Beckett:

Beckett's run support per start: 6.41
CC's run support per start: 5.1

Sabathia's number of IP (2007): 241.0 IP (not counting the postseason.)
Sabathia's highest number of IP before 2007: 210.0 IP in 2002.

Beckett's number of IP (2007): 200.2 IP (not counting the postseason.)
Beckett's highest number of IP before 2007: 204.2 IP in 2006.

While I can understand the argument about IP not being the best indicator, the increase in IP for Sabathia could have taken their toll, especially since the increase was already about 14.8% before he even pitched in the postseason, and I believe most agree that a pitcher's IP increase from season to season shouldn't be more than 10-15% at most (I think it's 10%, but am not entirely sure on that.)

In addition, CC's high watermark for IP was back in 2002, 5 seasons earlier. Contrast that to Beckett, who was 4 IP lower than his high watermark for IP that he had just pitched the season before.

While I agree that the number of pitches, and especially the number of high-stress pitches, are probably a better indicator, I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that Beckett was the fresher of the two going into the postseason, not CC. Plus, as was implied, CC probably threw a higher number of high-stress pitches than Beckett because he had a lower average of run support per start, plus had to deal with the Indians' offensive drought from July to mid-August, which is why CC had an ERA of 2.13 (I believe it was during that time span,) yet went 3-5 during that span.

Plus, the Indians' lead over the Tigers was never as large as the Red Sox's lead over the Yankees; only towards the end of the season did the Yankees challenge the Red Sox, while the Tigers were in or very close to first place up until mid-August when we took over the lead, but the Indians didn't really knock them out of the race until mid-September, so I think there were more stressful situations for Sabathia and the Indians than there were for Beckett and the Red Sox. The Indians were in a dogfight for much of the season, whereas the Red Sox were only challenged by the Yankees in mid-September for around a week or two. I think that all combined to help Beckett be fresher for the postseason than Sabathia was.

While I think CC was overthrowing at times in the postseason, I think it was partly due to excitement and making sure he had enough on his stuff to overpower the Red Sox hitters, but it didn't work. He really should have trusted what he had velocity-wise and make it work for him like he did toward the end of the season when he had the great September. Granted, it was against a better and more patient Red Sox lineup, but that's what led to him having the success he had that led to his Cy Young Award season. Hopefully, he'll learn that lesson for future postseasons (hopefully with the Indians.)

Just my 2 cents. :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Nov 14, 2007 12:14 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Actually, as a former high school pitcher who has arm problems (see the sig.)I can say that command is the first to go. You can maintain the velocity, but you can't consistently put it where you want it.

I definitely agree with Nick on the fact that pitching when you're tired puts the most miles on the arm.

I just had surgery on my labrum so please excuse the typing errors.

by gahnki on Nov 14, 2007 8:43 AM EST up reply actions

Sorry to hear about your surgery!

Hello gahnki,

First, I should have mentioned this yesterday: Congratulations to Sabathia for winning the Cy Young Award - I thought he should get it, even though I wasn't sure the BBWAA would vote him as the one to get it, thinking that Beckett would benefit from being in the larger market of Boston and the publicity they often get from most of the media, plus the fact that Cleveland never seems to get any awards (though now we have 2, along with Wedge's MOY award, so maybe that's changing! Next on the list is winning that WS trophy - hopefully, in 2008! :-)

Thanks for the info. - yes, I can definitely see where the command could falter from making so many pitches.

Like I mentioned, I think CC made more high-stress pitches than Beckett did over the course of the season because virtually every game meant something for us throughout the whole season. Granted, the Yankees nearly caught the Red Sox near the end of the season, but I don't think the Red Sox had the nightly pressure of having to win to keep pace or maintain a slim lead like the Indians did, and that I think could have taken its toll on guys like Sabathia and Carmona, since they essentially led the rotation for all (Sabathia) or most (Carmona) of the season. And like I also mentioned, Sabathia got less run support than Beckett did, and Sabathia also had to deal with the severe offensive struggles the Indians went through in July and August, something that Beckett never went through (not to that extent, anyway.)

I agree that being tired probably causes you to exert extra effort to execute your pitches correctly, which probably leads you to overexerting your muscles in an effort to correctly execute your pitches. I can see where that would likely lead to ineffectiveness and/or an injury. Thank goodness Sabathia and Carmona didn't have injuries this past season - may that continue to be the case in 2008 and beyond.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

Again, sorry to hear about your surgery and hope you make a full recovery soon!

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Nov 14, 2007 4:57 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Sorry to hear about your surgery!

Thanks for the well wishes.

I just had surgery on my labrum so please excuse the typing errors.

by gahnki on Nov 14, 2007 9:24 PM EST up reply actions

You're welcome! :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Nov 14, 2007 9:43 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I also don't think there is a way to prove that innings pitched cumulatively are more detrimental. I agree with Nicksj below that pitch counts are much more important.

Most Tribe fans would tell you that CC's struggles in the playoffs were a result of being too pumped up and overthrowing the ball, which hurt his pinpoint accuracy.

by Roger Dorn on Nov 13, 2007 11:11 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

*above

by Roger Dorn on Nov 13, 2007 11:11 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Please, call me Ishmael.

Er, I mean Nick.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 11:15 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Yikes. careful there

by Roger Dorn on Nov 13, 2007 8:54 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Aw man, I have a feeling this was a response to something deleted.

by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2007 10:10 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I know. I need to check the site more regularly.

by CU Adam on Nov 13, 2007 10:17 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Nothing earth shattering, actually

by Roger Dorn on Nov 13, 2007 11:03 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Good article by a good sports writer here

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 13, 2007 11:20 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

No, that is an article filled with thinly veiled fat puns.

I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Nov 14, 2007 12:54 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I count 12 "veiled" comments about weight. And no point at all to the article.

The Cy Young is a regular season award. This is not up for debate.

Josh Beckett pitched better than CC in the playoffs. This is also not up for debate.

If you would like to argue that Beckett pitched better in the regular season and therefore deserved the award, that is a subjective and debatable topic.

by CU Adam on Nov 14, 2007 2:08 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

It's also full of a lot of lists of things without "and" in front of the last item. The whole articles comes off as not just pointless, but also pompous.

by VA tribe fan on Nov 14, 2007 2:35 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

We get it already.

by Ryan on Nov 14, 2007 10:38 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

After reading articles in the national media all day yesterday and this morning, spending entirely too much time on other baseball message boards (20 mins of my life that I want back), I turned to the PD for a little home town biased celebration of CC's CY.

I can't tell you how much I loath Hoynes right now. In the usual Cleveland can do nothing right spirit, he can't even get through the opening two sentence paragraph without letting the rain come in. He says:

"He has grown up right in front of us. Now that he's primed and polished and has the American League Cy Young Award trophy sitting in the back seat, will C.C. Sabathia drive right out of Cleveland?"

What would it take to get some positive writing and a bit of celebratory excitement? If anyone wonders where Cleveland fans get their fatalistic belief that their sports teams are cursed and doomed, look no further than the sports writers who report on those teams. Ok, 45++ years of having lousy teams and having things ripped from us hurts too, but you get my point. I honestly think Cleveland could win a WS, a Superbowl and the NBA championship - all in one year - and these writers would still find something to moan about.

I just want a bit of good ol' fashioned "Whoo-hoo! We won! (Or at least - CC WON!!!).

Apparently headed towards a solid 2nd and 3rd in the LGT Fantasy Leagues. Eh...

by mjmarble on Nov 14, 2007 10:01 AM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Yeah, where did tabler84 and is thoroughly enjoyable and redeeming dissatisfaction with the media go to? I could use a summary of this. Or at least someone in the media speaking sensibly about the necessary changes to the media.

by NickFantana on Nov 14, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Or at least someone in the media speaking sensibly about the necessary changes to the media.

We can only hope.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 12:36 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

All right. I'm on board. Sign him, 5 years, $90 million, + incentives.

Go up to 6 at $115 million if necessary. Nothing beyond that. But I want a deal done.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 12:37 PM EST reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Not enough, it's gonna take more that $18M a year.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

What about $18M/year and free Swenson's burgers? I'd do that.

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I'm gonna disagree with you on this one, Chuck. I think CC is a smart enough guy, and he knows that the situation (i.e. comfort) in Cleveland is unmatchable anywhere else in the league.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 1:09 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Don't forget about his agent. He'll be whispering in his ear that he owes it to his family - wife, kids, mom and dad - to get every last dime, cuz he may never have another chance at the brass ring. And the agent gets 5-10% so he'll be sellin' hard.

Lots of pressure involved here. I'm not sure I'd wanna be CC here.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 1:17 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Really? I'd trade in the pressure for $100 million and being retired roughly by the age of 40. Yes sir.

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 1:22 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I'd do almost anything for $100 million and the chance to retire at 40 years old. But to pitch in a city that loves me with teammates I legitimately enjoy?

It's obscene to turn down that kind of money - let alone in a great situation.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I'm pretty sure once you're talking 9 figures, every last dime is pretty insignificant.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 1:27 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Guys I hate to do this, but if you've ever dealt with agents you'd know what I'm talking about.

I've known lots of guys who are worth millions, and it's never enough - never. Especially when they're in their 20's or 30's. You've got 10 million and have a house in Maui and one in Aspen? Hey, how come you gotta stay in a hotel room when you go to New York. OK you get a pent house in NYC and next the ol' lady wants to know why you never go to Paris. So the next thing you know you're up to your eye balls in debt for a "small" chateau on the Rue D'Or. And what? We gotta go commercial? I'm not flyin' with that riff-raff in first class. How come you don't have a Gulf Stream - a Lear won't make it from Newark to Charles De Galle without refueling - so we don't hafta fly commercial.

And then you need about $15M in the bank for every $1M a year you wanna spend - and you know you can't make it on just $3M a year, what with your nut on the house taxes, the maintenance costs on your Gulf-Stream, and don't forget Paulo isn't gonna keep your fleet of Ferrari's runnin' for free.

Nope boyz, I'm afraid $100M ain't gonna cut it if you wanna live LARGE. Gotta have that last $20M or you might end up livin' in a packin' crate on the beach im Ma'alea.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 1:41 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I wish I had $100 million.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 2:26 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I must say, I find this post hilarious.

Of course Paulo isn't gonna keep my fleet running for free. I feel like he's very underappreciated.

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Also! I have dealt with agents; just not sports ones. The ones I deal with are pretty legit.

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2007 2:30 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Chuck, this is easily the most ridiculous post I've ever seen on LGT. Well done, sir.

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 14, 2007 8:52 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

C.C. has the same agent as Hafner (Greg Genske), so the precedent is there for two sides to find a happy medium of fair market value and comfort.

by The DiaTriber on Nov 14, 2007 3:57 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Indeed they do have the same agent. I hadn't thought of that.

Although I'm not sure who Greg Genske is. Cot's (have I referenced them enough in the past three days?) says they are both represented by Scott Parker and Brian Peters of Legacy Sports.

by nickjs21 on Nov 14, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Google Greg Genske and his client list comes up.

by The DiaTriber on Nov 14, 2007 9:50 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

The agent actually only gets 1-3% of player contracts (it goes up on endorsement deals), and CC is a smart enough guy to know that the agent works for him...he doesn't owe the agent anything. There are a lot of reasons (over 100 million) that CC may not sign w/ the Indians, agent greed won't be one of them.

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 14, 2007 8:48 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

We can fence over what the per centage is but the bottom line is: the more money the player signs for the more money the agent makes. He'll be sellin' hard for CC to get that last buck, cuz for every buck CC gets he'll get his 2 cents or nickel or whatever.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 14, 2007 9:47 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

preface: chuck this will be a tangent that neither picks on you or has anything to do with your posts subject matter.

Tyler (fleerdon), if you're out there what do you think about this as a new game? break up words into their roots ala chuck here. it's got a nice feel to it in the right place. per centages, de molishing?

by Brick. on Nov 14, 2007 9:55 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

You are crazy, C.C will take the last dollar and run. The same thing was said about Manny and Thome how Boston and Philly were tough towns and that they would take a few dollars less to stay with with the team he has always played for. If you think he is going to take less then what the max deal is then you really don't understand professional athletes.

Jason Bay, Kelly Shoppach and Dustin Pedroia (ROY) these are some of my favorite players. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 14, 2007 4:40 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I agree that a lot of athletes are like that, but I don't think you can automatically group ALL of them in there. There's no reason for me to assume that CC will absolutely take whoever offers him the most dollars...we might find out that he'll happily take 90% of the highest offer if he can stay with this franchise. Keep in mind that, for a player who is serious about winning championships, this is a damn good franchise to be a part of for the next decade, especially when you're talking about a guy who might be building a Hall of Fame resume.

Also, don't forget that real dollars are different from real money. The Dodgers may be willing to offer him $140 million, but that's less than $125 million in Cleveland.

by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Nov 14, 2007 6:59 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Maybe, I don't know.

But personally I've always looked at it like this:

If I am CC, and the most the Indians offer me 18M and I know what I would get on the open market is 20M, I take the 18M.

I don't think I would move out of a good situation where I am comfortable and have friends, family and as much money as my family would need for at least 3 generations for a 11.1% raise.

I don't think I would move out of a good situation and across the country for an 11.1% raise, and I don't even have the kind of FU money these guys have.

But then again CC isn't from Cleveland to begin with. So I suppose that makes leaving here much less of a big deal to him.

by KevinV on Nov 14, 2007 1:44 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

It really depends on the person. Some would leave, some wouldn't. Jim Thome fooled us all when he left and he comes across as a standup guy that would be comfortable in Cleveland.

by Roger Dorn on Nov 14, 2007 3:47 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

In my opinion, CC is already shopping for (more) California real estate. Being a Cali guy, and looking at the opportunity to cash in with a Cali team--you have to figure the Dodgers and Angels figure VERY prominently in the CC race, and the Giants may even jump in--for substantially more than the Tribe can offer, how can CC even consider a "hometeam discount"? This is a biz, friends, and just like you all would move back to Cleveland to do your job for more money and be closer your families, ball players do the same calculus, only w/ a lot more 0's on the end. I want to be hopeful, but in my mind the CC ship has already sailed. He's just going to command too much.

I hope I'm wrong.

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 14, 2007 8:56 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I hope you're wrong too. It'd be nice to get one more hometown discount - to go along with Pronk and Westbrook. Just remember that a year ago we were arguing which ONE of these guys we should try to sign. Thus far we're sitting pretty at 2-2. In Shapiro we trust, no?

Apparently headed towards a solid 2nd and 3rd in the LGT Fantasy Leagues. Eh...

by mjmarble on Nov 14, 2007 9:37 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Okay, first thing is, C.C. is not a free agent. Not for another year. I don't think we can win a bidding war, but there is no bidding war unless we fail to extend him.

Second thing is, this is what C.C. said just two days ago: "I've been an Indian my entire career. I grew up here, and I've been here since I was 17 years old, so I really can't see myself leaving the organization. My agent is meeting with the team, and hopefully they can get something done real soon."

I know, those are just words. It doesn't mean anything. But he didn't need to say quite as much as that if he's actually shopping for California real estate on the side.

by Jay on Nov 16, 2007 11:13 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

No question, Jay, that those comments from CC are more positive than they need to be...and of course, my earlier thoughts on CC leaving pertain to the 2008-09 offseason. He is, indeed, still employed by the Tribe for another year, and until such time as he's not, he's ours to deal with exclusively.

However, I still don't see a way that we convince him to forego a trip to the open market. To my mind, it's as simple as this: Barry Zito, 7 years, $126mm. Zito inked that deal 4 years after his CY turn, and coming off of an above-average-but-by-no-means-great season (16-10, 3.83 ERA, 116 ERA+, 1.4 WHIP). Clearly, each market is different, but CC, and his agent, have to be thinking that Zito's deal is at the very least the ballpark for CC.

I would love it if he were to do so, but I just can't see CC leaving as much money on the table as he would through resigning with us early. Totally hypothesizing here, but if the Tribe gets punchy and offers 5 years, $95mm (19mm per), he's still leaving 2 guaranteed years and $30mm out there. That's an unthinkable amount to foresake.

Again, I hope he proves me wrong. Shapiro is so much smarter than I am that it's laughable, so maybe they'll figure something out. I just have a hard time seeing it. Just one man's opinion.

by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 19, 2007 6:13 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

On the one hand, I totally agree with you. It seems unthinkable to leave that much on the table. But it's not the least bit uncommon. Zambrano, Oswalt, Buerhle, Halladay -- they all left tens of millions on the table.

So on the one hand, we have to accept the fact that from a business perspective, for C.C. to stay would be completely irrational. But on the other hand, we should also accept that players just like C.C. do things just like that all the time, no matter how irrational.

by Jay on Nov 20, 2007 12:32 AM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

I was gonna ask you when the last time a Indian's player left that kinda money on the table but I guess you could say Hafner did - maybe.

I'm just remembering the Manny and Thome signings. They just couldn't walk away from that last $10-20M or so. With Manny I'm sure it was his agent who persuaded him to sign with Boston - Moorad wasn't it? While I guess Thome just couldn't buy enough bass boats with "only" $10M a year.

Cleveland is just not that attactive a city. CC's a West Coast guy and I can't imagine him spending any more time in the frozen Mid-West than necessary.

BTW Not-Joey, I flew back to Maui from LA Friday and sat next to a screen writer type while Owen Wilson was two rows in front of us. The writer said, "Owen must be in a bad way if he's flying commercial. You'd think he could of at least rented a private jet to come out here so he wouldn't hafta fly with the public." Perfect!

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Nov 20, 2007 1:22 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Those guys were free agents. C.C. isn't. A year from now, if we didn't extend him, you won't find me saying I think we can keep him.

by Jay on Nov 20, 2007 3:52 PM EST up reply actions

Re: C.C. wins the Cy Young

Re: leaving money on the table, in almost the identical situation, Ortiz got a three-year extension for $57 million. Hafner's extension was worth $56 million and covered four years.

Of course even Ortiz was leaving money on the table. As a free agent with a shaky history for injuries and "intangibles," even J.D. Drew got $70 million. The closest true free agent comps I can come up to Hafner and Ortiz would be Carlos Lee and Alfonso Soriano, who got $100 million and $136 million respectively. Given the scale of those deals, I don't think there can be any doubt that Hafner was leaving eight-digit money on the table.

by Jay on Nov 20, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions