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Marte to the Giants?

from rotoworld via San Jose Mercury News

The San Jose Mercury News believes Andy Marte is a "strong possibility" to join the Giants as a candidate to start at third.
Marte, who is out of options, is believed to be available in trade talks. He's the kind of youngster the Giants should be looking to gamble on in a year in which they'll have little chance of contending.
Source: San Jose Mercury News

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Re: Marte to the Giants?
Sabean prolly loves Blake, just based on age. We'll take Cain in return.

by JulioBernazard on Nov 30, 2007 2:58 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
It just sounds like one writer's opinion on what could be a viable scenario for the Giants, nothing that is necessarily imminent, right?

by cheech99 on Nov 30, 2007 3:02 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Yeah, I think people are reading a little too much into one writer's speculation.

by zempf on Nov 30, 2007 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
The writer attributed it to a "source."  He also mentioned that the Indians may not want to trade him until spring training.

by palcal on Nov 30, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I suppose I would take Sosa. It's clear that this organization gave up on Marte so might as well get value for him.

by Joe on Nov 30, 2007 3:03 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I'd love to get something of value for Marte. Not too familiar with SF though.

Wonder if this is any indication that the FO is actually considering moving Peralta to 3B. I mean, that is if this rumor has any truth to it.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 30, 2007 3:19 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I wouldn't connect that line...They could just as easily stick with Blake at 3B.

by hans on Nov 30, 2007 3:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I actually read someone post over at the Giants SBN blog about wanting Marte a month or so ago. I think its simply an "idea" not really anything to it yet.

Although it does seem like a fit. I'm sure Shapiro would explore the possibility. Flexability is something Shapiro seems to value alot, and Marte without options and without an overwhelming performance in the past two years in AAA and ML certainly doesn't offer us that.

by hans on Nov 30, 2007 3:20 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I don't see why they don't just suck it up and give him the job. 57 ABs is hardly a fair tryout. Pedroia was God awful last year in his call up and was hitting .185 in April (not unlike Marte). With Asdrubal at 2B, there's only one blackhole in the lineup, not two. Give him the damn job.

The Indians have a habit of keeping their prospects in the minors a tad too long.

  1. Garko put together a good AAA campaign in 2005, but they sent him back to Buffalo in 2006 and his production declined.

  2. Brandon Phillips put together a good season in AAA in 2004, but was sent back there in 2005 for no good reason and his production dropped like Garko's.

  3. Andy Marte graduated AAA in the IL in 2005. He gets traded to the Indians but goes back to Buffalo in 2006 and his production drops like the aforementioned prospects. Then he gets a late season call up and 57AB try out in 2007?

Three anecdotes does not make a trend. But is it really a surprise that these put but very good AAA years and were rewarded with a bus ticket to Buffalo. It wouldn't surprise me if the disappointment affected their repeat season in AAA.

by crazymoloh on Nov 30, 2007 3:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I'm still for a Blake-Marte-Dellucci platoon to man 3B/LF:
Blake (3B) & Dellucci (LF) vs. RHP
Blake (LF) & Marte (3B) vs. LHP

Move Michaels for some reliever or use him as a throw-in on a deal.

by The DiaTriber on Nov 30, 2007 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Too much Blake.

I think we overvalue Michaels.  He was relatively unknown when we got him by the Phils, but he is "exposed" at this point.

by bewwolv on Dec 1, 2007 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I would disagree that he's been "exposed" as I think that most people thought he was a viable platoon OF in Philly (but nothing more) while the Tribe thought he could project to an everyday OF.

2006 proved that the prevailing notion that he is best suited for a platoon role was correct.
A number of teams would take Michaels as a 4th OF/RH Platoon at his salary, particularly in the NL.

Blake's versatility is what would allow this to happen and give Dellucci and Marte a chance to start off the season well facing only pitchers whom they have succeeded against.  If one of them thrives (please make it Marte), then Blake becomes more of the Super Utility player that most feel he is best suited for and can bounce around the field.

by The DiaTriber on Dec 1, 2007 8:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
PC, I'd like your take on Blake. I've argued his second half last season was indicative of an approaching downturn. What do you see that suggests to you he's still a full-time player in 2008?

by fleerdon on Dec 1, 2007 11:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I'm not sure that he is a full-time player and agree that his 2nd half was probably the best indicator of where he's heading, but his versatility allows Andy Marte to ease into the lineup and gain some confidence facing only LHP while keeping Dellucci on the bench against LHP.  

The hope would be that Marte (to borrow a Shapiroism) "forces the Indians' hand" and becomes the full-time 3B and that one of the young players (like Francisco or Brown) or an acquired young OF (like Quentin, Gonzalez, or Gomez) can establish themselves in LF while not being burdened with the expectations right out of Winter Haven.

I think that Blake will start the season as a full-time player, but will be relegated to the super-utility role that most of us feel he is best-suited for as the younger players establish themselves as viable options as the year progresses.

by The DiaTriber on Dec 2, 2007 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I could not disagree more with this idea.  Marte's entire value is bound up in his development into a very good hitter, and he's always been a slow starter.  How can it possibly be a good idea to "ease him in" to the majors by playing him only two or three times a week?  The man needs AB, damn it!

If he were a lefty, where he'd start four or five times a week rather than two or three, then maybe I could see it as balancing the team's need for optimal production with the player's need to get into a rhythm and develop.  (The Indians, that said, expressed reluctance to take exactly that approach with the lefty Choo.)

But with a righty?  No.  All you'll do is have him making all his big-league adjustments against lefties.  A third baseman earns his keep hitting against righties, or not at all.

by Jay on Dec 2, 2007 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I guess I just don't see where the AB are going to come from then.  Assuming no moves are made, Dellucci (at the least) is in LF and Blake is at 3B.  Marte's the odd man out as he's not a bench player and he's out of options.

I can't see them handing Marte the 3B job again out of ST (as much as I'd like to see that happen).  The suggestion was an attempt at a happy medium to keep Marte in the lineup at least a few games a week, against LHP whom he has historically hit.  If he's a slow starter, what's the harm in allowing him to build up his confidence in MLB against LHP and move into the everyday lineup come June?

Again, as much as I'd like to see him in the lineup every day starting in March, the convoluted platoon idea is simply a way to keep him on the team and getting SOME AB.

by The DiaTriber on Dec 3, 2007 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I don't see it either, and it's a problem.  But what we know is that keeping Marte as a platoon/bench guy is an exercise in futility.  This organization has been smart enough to store depth at Buffalo rather than on the bench, and that's doubly true for Marte.

Ironically, they traded Phillips in part on the premise that he wouldn't be well suited to a bench role -- a premise that in retrospect was almost certainly false as it turned out.  Now they've got a very similar situation, minus the attitude perhaps, and the guy legitimately would make a lousy bench player.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2007 3:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Didn't really answer your question I guess ... let's remember that the situation is even more complicated than that, because Choo is also out of options.

You say Marte is the "odd man out," but as a strategic matter, the most valuable asset of the bunch -- even after factoring in risk -- cannot be the odd man out.  One would hope they learned that lesson a few years ago.

Why do I say Marte is the most valuable?  Because we don't really know how any of these guys will perform -- Marte's viability is only slightly more in doubt than Dellucci's or even Blake's -- and Marte is under control for five years at reasonable dollars.  Michaels is cheap for one year, Blake won't be cheap for one year, and Dellucci is a dubious value at best for two years.  (One wonders if we shouldn't just put Dellucci on irrevocable waivers, assuming Choo is healthy, someone with a need might just take him at that salary.)  In any event, Marte is as projectable in 2009 as any of them, and he's cheap for three years and reasonable for two more after that.

You point out that something has to happen in order for Marte to get playing time.  I say, something has to happen anyway, because we can't carry all four guys on the roster (not to mention that having Francisco and Snyder as 6th and 7th outfielders in Buffalo is just not a sensible use of 40-man spots).  But back to the main point:  We only have three bench spots outside of the backup catcher, and those three spots will not be going to Choo, Michaels and Marte.  So someone or -ones are going to be traded, even if only for a bag of balls.

by Jay on Dec 3, 2007 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I do agree with you and it becomes a matter of balancing what we would LIKE to see happen and and what will LIKELY happen.

I'd be thrilled if Marte was handed the 3B job out of the gate, but it just isn't going to happen unless one (or more) of these players are moved to create the opportunity.

I suppose the platoon idea was an attempt to balance my wishes and reality.

And I do agree that this will probably sort itself out, I just hope that Marte is not the one sorted out.

by The DiaTriber on Dec 3, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Crazy, I think you might be on target here.

I also think the Tribe plays it too tight It's interesting, though, that they let Cabrera fly through the system. . . . And look at the results.

by ploni on Dec 1, 2007 10:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Since they've managed to put a contending product on the field (2005 - till date), they've been too cautious when it comes to playing youngsters.

  • Asdrubal rocketed up because Barfield was probably the worst regular player in all of baseball.

  • Carmona was ticketed for Buffalo and only made it up because of a combination of an injury to Lee, Sowers posting a 6.00+ ERA and an injury to Westbrook.

by crazymoloh on Dec 2, 2007 4:08 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I'm not sure either of your examples stand out as moves the Indians shouldn't have made based on info they had prior to both players excelling. I can point to Jason Davis and F-Cab. We played them in the majors prior to us losing them on options and neither of them showed anything (outside of occasional flash in the pan) of value to encourage us to keep them. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. Both Carmona and AsCab are extremely young for the ML level, you don't expect that to happen, nor should you rush players to do so.

by hans on Dec 2, 2007 5:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Kind of realized after posting that they were bad examples.

by crazymoloh on Dec 2, 2007 2:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
you do know that we let Brandon play in 2003 on the ML level for 370 ABs right? its not like he didn't get the shot. We also happend to have a second baseman who put up an OPS+ of 106 and 107 in '04 and '05. So you are saying they should have given Phillips the job during the '05 campaign that almost netted us a playoff berth, when the incumbant was putting up better numbers than we would have expected out of Phillips (he posted sub .800 OPSs both of those years in AAA).

You can make an argument about Garko, by saying that they shouldn't have brought back Broussard in 2006, and I think you would hit the nail on the head so to speak, but its not that they want to keep these players down there, but rather I believe they value depth at position, and are willing to bet that taking the risk on a known commodity (with rookie in tow) vs. rookie getting all the playing time without a safety plan (see B.Phillips in 2003) is a better way to compete. And the word compete is important because in 2005 they made a run that almost netted the a playoff berth, this changes things. You can't afford to risk playing rookies that could fall flat on their faces and leave you in a desperate position (what if Garko failed, what if Marte fails this year) without a "plan b" when competing for the division crown.  

by hans on Dec 2, 2007 5:57 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
you do know that we let Brandon play in 2003 on the ML level for 370 ABs right?

Yes. I remember the season vividly. But he was coming up after a good half season in AAA. Again, I'm actually fine with that. He failed in audition #1. They send him back, presumably to work on his hitting and he appears to show good improvement by cutting his K-rate and boosting his walk rate. He did what they asked him to do and the Indians responded by keeping him in AAA. At least trade him to get some value.

So you are saying they should have given Phillips the job during the '05 campaign that almost netted us a playoff berth, when the incumbant was putting up better numbers than we would have expected out of Phillips (he posted sub .800 OPSs both of those years in AAA)

They were coming off an 80-win season. Its a little much to say that they knew a 90-win season was in the offing. And yes, I'm saying they should have jettisoned Belliard. It wasn't like he was entering the 2005 season with an OPS higher than .800 either.

You can make an argument about Garko, by saying that they shouldn't have brought back Broussard in 2006, and I think you would hit the nail on the head so to speak, but its not that they want to keep these players down there, but rather I believe they value depth at position, and are willing to bet that taking the risk on a known commodity (with rookie in tow) vs. rookie getting all the playing time without a safety plan (see B.Phillips in 2003) is a better way to compete.

If you're the Indians, you got get comfortable with rebuilding on the run. Known commodity is great and all, but almost no player is a lock to succeed in the majors on the first. You suck it up and deal with and create a situation to ease them in (Gutierrez, Peralta). You don't ship them back to Buffalo. If the Indians had been competitive in 2006, I don't think Garko would have been called up.

I'm sorry. They screwed up with all three of those guys. Well, with Marte, I think the were willing to let him develop slowly in the majors but Barfield decided, unexpectedly, to stink up the joint, creating another black hole in the lineup.

I don't blame them for Guthrie. The kid never looked good enough to merit a spot on the rotation.  

 

by crazymoloh on Dec 2, 2007 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Well, the SF Chronicle has not said anything about this, but I do know that Sabean has indicated (but not said) that Noah Lowry is for the taking and that he "hopes" to hang onto Cain and Lincecum, and they are looking for a power bat, preferably someone over 40 (ha ha).  Being a SF resident, I can tell you that the Giants have nothing else to offer, at least as far as the Indians are or should be concerned.  The Giants are screwed as a franchise for the foreseeable future, with no position player talent in the farm system and a terrible relief corp.  (They will have no major league talent in three years!) They have starting pitching and that is it.  Another last place finish, coming right up!

by Fredward on Nov 30, 2007 3:54 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Which is why they seem like a viable trade partner to me.  They look like one of the only teams where it might make sense to trade for quantity and not quality.  Trading away Cain or Linecum for a haul of on-the-cusp, relatively low ceiling guys (Francisco, Choo, etc.) would probably improve them and get them younger, whereas with other teams those "spare parts" would not necessarily improve the 2008 club.

At any rate, it seems wise to unload Cain and Linecum while their value is high, because the team is not going to compete anyway.

by Pronktastic on Nov 30, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
No it doesn't.  If we traded for Cain or Lincecum, even I would be angry at the shortsightedness of San Fran.

by nickjs21 on Nov 30, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
And just so we are clear, I'm not saying that it should only take Choo and Francisco to bag Cain or Linecum.  Just saying that it seems to me those two would be more valuable to San Fran than almost any other team.

And plus, how marketable would BenFran's name be in that city?

by Pronktastic on Nov 30, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
we could given an entire infield.....

C - Shoppach
1B - Brown/Mulhern
2B - Barfield
3B - Marte

by crazymoloh on Nov 30, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I'd take yours over this (sorry, don't know tables):

Position - Name - 2008 Age - 2007 OPS

C - Bengie Molina - 33 - .731
1B - Ryan Klesko - 37 - .745
2B - Ray Durham - 36 - .638
SS - Omar Vizquel - 41 - .621
3B - Pedro Feliz - 33 - .708

by Pronktastic on Nov 30, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Oddly enough, the Indians drafted Lincecum a year before the Giants. Couldn't sign him.

by crazymoloh on Nov 30, 2007 4:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Shame.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Nov 30, 2007 7:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I truly believe Sabean will only unload Cain or Lincecum for a top "name" to fill seats in the ballpark that Bonds built.  Even if it means a worse player or rejecting an entire infield that would upgrade the team.  Isn't it funny how every team that sucks preaches speed and defense?

by Fredward on Nov 30, 2007 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
He wouldn't trade him for Miguel Cabrera.  I don't think there's many others that would make him do the deal.

Sabean's stupid, but he at the very least realizes he would put his life on the line by dealing Lincecum.

by nickjs21 on Nov 30, 2007 11:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
If they do it I want a good return not spare change from a the cookie jar.
Patience is a virtue but Champions don't need it. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 30, 2007 5:04 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
edit.

Delete "the"

Patience is a virtue but Champions don't need it. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Nov 30, 2007 5:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Naw, leave it as is. Sounded very Italian.

by supermarioelia on Nov 30, 2007 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
Yeah, I kind of liked it that way.
I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Dec 1, 2007 1:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
It does sound Italian.  I think we have to try dis a little more in our ever-a-ry day conv-a-sation at LGT.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Dec 1, 2007 9:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Marte to the Giants?
I can only imagine how awful a lot of us would truly sound speaking "Eye-Talian"

Probably like those terrible Donato's Pizza Mozzarella PIzza TV spots. If I were from some Italian-American Anti-Discrimination Organization, I would sue them for defaming the word 'mozzarella'.

by emd2k3 on Dec 1, 2007 4:45 PM EST up reply actions  

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