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Why not Bedard AND Roberts?

Ok, I'll just throw out this trade proposal.
It's been mentioned before that the Tribe was at least considering Erik Bedard.  My question is why not include Brian Roberts in the deal too.  Too expense? Well not really, just listen to what we have to offer.
The Orioles have traded away their starting shortstop, and we may have one to offer that may have his highest trade value in years.  His name is Jhonny Peralta.  He is owed about $12 million between 2008-11.  The bonus is AsCab can get his natural position back
Roberts is owed $14 million and change in the next two years.  He is a career .281 batting average, and while he has limited power he stole 50 bases and scored 103 runs last year. His defense is also solid. In 2007 he had 7 errors and a .991 fielding percentage.
Bedard is arby eligible for the next 2 years and earned less than $4 million last year.
What would it take to get him?  How about a package that included a shortstop, Peralta,a second baseman, Barfield (to replace Roberts), a ML ready OF, Francisco, a prospect 1B/ OF Jordan Brown, and ML ready SP, Aaron Laffey.
Still too expense you say. Well how about checking to see if St. Louis might want to offload an Anthony Reyes for a Cliff Lee (as rumored a few weeks ago). Lee is owed $3.75M in 08, $5.75M in 09 and has a $8M option 10. Now do we have the money? Still interested?  I am.
Could it happen?  Maybe.  Will it? Probably not.  Could it improve both teams?  I think so.
I'd at least make a call

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Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
I'd be on board with that - just would substitute Miller for Laffey.  I'm sure that the O's would want another prospect or so in that though.  

In my dream world we could get them to take Lee as a reclamation project (just affordable, tradeable upside come next July if it works) and a couple of lower pitching prospects.  Probably would still have to include Miller though.

Officially starting up and driving the trade for Bedard bandwagon. Also, local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer."

by mjmarble on Dec 18, 2007 9:22 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
This would be our version of the DET/FLA blockbuster. Given that Tejada was given away for peanuts, who knows what it will take to snag that pair.

It just hard to see ANY team placing much value in Barfield, Francisco or Brown at the moment. I'm high on Brown, but most people are wild about light hitting first baseman.

I'd love for Perlata to be of value to ANYONE, but I just don't see him working out with the Orioles rebuilding time frame.

by crazymoloh on Dec 18, 2007 9:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
How is Roberts' defense?
Officially starting up and driving the trade for Bedard bandwagon. Also, local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer."

by mjmarble on Dec 18, 2007 9:54 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Roberts is a capable second baseman with pretty good range. He's listed tenth in the 2B rankings for the 2007 Fielding Bible Awards included in the new Bill James Handbook.

Bedard and Roberts would be terrific additions to the Indians, but I can't imagine that the proposed package would satisfy the O's. Since Haren has been traded, Bedard, with his two years remaining under contract, is the most valuable trading chip on the market.

There is supposed to be serious interest from the Reds and the Mariners. I'm sure other teams are also in discussions with Baltimore.

by Rochester on Dec 18, 2007 10:20 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
He's an excellent defender. The thought of he and Acab up the middle makes me drool.

I love the trade idea, even though I give it a .00001 probability. Aside from JP already being pencilled in at SS, I think it would take more to pull it off, you'd have to add Miller to the mix. The competing offers for Bedard alone will be very high.

BTW, the latest from Dwags on cleveland.com (who has proved in the past to be a reliable source, take it as you will) is that:

Contrary to the SFGate report, Shap actually did offer Miller, Laffey, ACab for Haren, but was turned down, to his disappointment. And that he was inquiring about Roberts as a replacement at 2B if it went down.

by mcrose on Dec 18, 2007 10:34 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Allow me to be the first: Thank you Billy Beane.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 18, 2007 11:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Yeah, if that's true (and obviously I don't know it is), I'm glad it didn't happen.

Although if I could do that deal and magically have Roberts at 2B, I would. But the non-fiction version of that secenario means another trade with another set of our players in return. I just don't see Shap spending that much to get Haren initially, and then spending more on top of that to replace the 2B he lost in the first trade.

by mcrose on Dec 18, 2007 11:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
we have jamey carroll at second now---who needs another one?  besides---roberts is radioactive, he's in the mitchell report and i'm guessing thats not a good thing about now--but i would trade marte for him---then again, i'd trade marte for a big mac and large fries--maybe throw in a drink.

by rustyparts on Dec 20, 2007 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
I have a hard time believing that. There are zero doubts about Miller's ability to dominate at the big league level. Staying healthy, that's another thing.  Cabrera is obviously a good defensive shortstop and displayed a very good walk rate and XBH% in AA this year at age 21. Definitely an A+ prospect. Laffey is ML-ready. Its hard to get a beat on what his long term prospects are because he rocketed through the minors last year. Those are three young 20+ year olds who are ML-ready with average to high ceilings. If Beane didn't take that, he's nuts. Carlos Gonzalez was the only player in the Arizona deal that was close to a sure thing.

Also, if the deal for Haren went through, we'd have almost no ML-ready prospects to offer Baltimore for Roberts.

 

by crazymoloh on Dec 18, 2007 11:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Yeah, me too. See above. Let's say for the sake of argument that just the first part was true, MillerLaffeyAcab for Haren. What was the plan for 2B?

Best no-cost option is internal, Barfield and Carroll being good defenders at least, with a hopeful rebound for Josh at the plate. It's not like you don't have ML experience there.

I could almost see Shap being so in love with Haren's contract that he would do that, even though me in the peanut gallery wouldn't.

by mcrose on Dec 19, 2007 12:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Link?

My guess is he meant Shapiro offered each one of those players in different proposals, not all three in the same package.

by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Dec 19, 2007 6:39 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
http://www.cleveland.com/forums/tribe/

No way to link directly - look for thread# 609683 in the ranges at the bottom. This was the beginning of that thread:

609683. Haren and Update
by dwags, 12/17/07 20:17 ET
Well, I was told today that the Indians were quite dissapointed that they didn't win the Haren sweepstakes, and that they felt their pacakge of Miller, Laffey and Cabrera was better than what the Dbacks gave them. It seems as if the Dbacks wanted to go with quantity over the quality the Tribe offered. Don't believe what other articles are reporting...the Indians were ready and willing to include Cabrera in the deal, and Miller/Laffey/Cabrera was what was on the table. I am told that all is expected to be quiet until the holidays are over. The Indians are casually keeping an eye on the Bedard sweepstakes (as well as Brian Roberts). But again, nothing imminent.

by mcrose on Dec 19, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Just a horrible suggestion.  Shapiro would never do this type of creative/expensive deal.  Brian Roberts steals are meaningless as we don't believe in the stolen base.  I am sick of these creative trade proposals because they are not going to happen.  We need this site to based in reality.  WE ARE NOT MAKING BLOCKBUSTER TRADES, EVER!  Get a grip people we are poor, don't have any money to spend and our prospect are better then Babe Ruth.
Patience is a virtue but Champions don't need it. LGT resident kinesiologist 774

by E5 on Dec 18, 2007 11:03 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
This trade is a bad idea but not because it is too creative for Shapiro. It's simple plugging pieces kind of stuff. The trading we do may not be the stuff of fantasy in which you indulge but that hardly makes it bad. Further, your tenuous grip on lucidity seems to be slipping. To wit:

Our AB leaders:

Sizemore
Blake
Peralta
Martinez
Hafner
Garko
Barfield
Nixon
Gutierrez

Who in there should be running more? I say we let Garko, Hafner and Martinez go crazy on the basepaths. Send them every time. Grady was 13th in the majors, 6th in the AL.

No, we don't believe in the stolen base. That is because Wedge is not so stupid as to attempt with our lineup. To ask us to indulge in that sort of ignorance is simply ridiculous.

I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Dec 19, 2007 2:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Please remind me how we got Grady Sizemore. I don't think it was in a blockbuster trade or anything, right?

by Kos @ Let's Go Tribe! on Dec 19, 2007 6:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
in a trade for bartolo colon---it was a blockbuster

by rustyparts on Dec 21, 2007 6:51 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Eddie, the key to getting people to treat your input with anything but venom is to show at least some sense.

Re-read what you wrote. Did you contribute anything new to the discussion? Can you blame anyone for responding to it with the same rolling of the eyes? And it's not because we are uncomfortable with the comments you make and that they bring things to light that make us squirm. It's because you talk down to basically the entire site and make the same comments in a condescending tone. Can we please have the post-hiatus E5 back? That guy was actually a pleasure to have around. He too made his opinions known, but everyone enjoyed his company. You've morphed back into the pre-hiatus guy, and I know it's somewhat a product of the environment around here bashing you at every turn. Let's start fresh.

by supermarioelia on Dec 19, 2007 9:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
you are absolutely and unequivically wrong.

by hans on Dec 19, 2007 2:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
This is not that far-fetched, but the O's are going to want a legitimate center fielder.  I can see them accepting an offer of Miller, Crowe, Barfield, Peralta, and one of Lee/Laffey/Sowers for Bedard and Roberts.  That trade would tempt me from either side of the table.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Dec 19, 2007 7:35 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Which one of those players is a legit center fielder?

by gte619n on Dec 19, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Crowe.  He's an above average runner.  He's aggressive.  Baseball America says that he "shows enough range and arm strength to stay in center field, though he won't push Grady Sizemore to a corner."  I'm assuming Grady's presence explains why they've been playing Crowe mainly in left, and also why they undertook the second base experiment in 2006.  Now whether Crowe is a legit hitter, that's another question.  But his stock is fairly low right now, and the Birds might think his bat is for real.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Dec 19, 2007 11:00 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
I think the take on Crowe's defense is evolving to where he's considered fringe for CF.  Definitely behind not just Grady but Gutierrez and Michaels and Snyder (and Barton if we still had him).

by Jay on Dec 19, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Maybe so.  I see Crowe as a little bit like Crisp two or three years ago.  Crowe's bat doesn't play as well if he has to be at one of the corners, and since we have Grady (and Gutz), he's probably worth more to teams who need CF help than to us.  If I'm Andy McPhail, I see Crowe as an upgrade over Jay Payton, maybe as soon as 2009.  
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Dec 19, 2007 8:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
At this point, I'd be thrilled, and a little surprised, if he ended up threatening an 800 OPS in the majors, as Crisp used to.

by Jay on Dec 19, 2007 9:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
There isn't much indication that Crowe would put up anything more than replacement-level offensive numbers as a center fielder. By all accounts, he isn't anything close to being a gold glove caliber CF either. He certainly wouldn't be a player whom a deal is built around. He's nice throw-in, but not much more. I'm sure Baltimore could get a similar player as a throw-in in almost any other deal.

by crazymoloh on Dec 19, 2007 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
I don't think Crowe ever profiled as someone you build a team around. His strengths are of the leadoff/sparkplug variety, getting on base, hustling, playing good D, and of course a high grit factor.

His ML future, if he has one, is playing CF-LF, and keeping a high enough batting avg that his good eye at the plate pays off enough so he can bat leadoff. Even when he's not hitting, he draws walks at a very high rate. It's just a question of whether he's a .300 hitter or a .240 hitter. He's had stretches of both, his avg going down when he feels he has to be a slugger, going back up when he concentrates on just putting the ball in play.

His second half last year was actually pretty encouraging, with a 300+/400+/450+ line from July on. But its fair to say he needs to continue that at AAA before he's worth much in a trade or to this team.

by mcrose on Dec 19, 2007 9:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Thanks, mcrose.  If I'm Andy McPhail, I look at Crowe's numbers from July on and think to myself, aha, Coco Crisp three years ago.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Dec 20, 2007 6:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
I said this before with regard to Crisp ... just because a guy doesn't hit well doesn't make him a good defender.  Crisp surprised me and jacked up his defensive game, one of the best CF in the game the past two years.  But that doesn't mean anything for Crowe.

This reminds me of the phenomenon where a fair number of Indians fans think that Broussard was a good fielder.  They only think that because Broussard and Hafner were thought of as a pair, and Hafner was the one who could hit.  By any measure, Broussard is a pretty bad defender.

by Jay on Dec 19, 2007 9:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
"just because a guy doesn't hit well doesn't make him a good defender."

That's a great line, but let's keep it to ourselves, okay.  I mean, we've gotta talk Crowe up if we want the O's to make this deal.  Next thing you know, Bedard is in New York and Roberts is in Wrigley or somewhere.

ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Dec 20, 2007 6:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Just to further indulge this fantasy of acquiring a 2B to make Peralta expendable, how about Orlando Hudson?  He's coming off two very good years thanks mostly to a much-improved walk rate, and the D'backs have an almost-ready prospect for 2B and just acquired Chris Burke from the Stupid Astros (their new name).

Hudson is third-year arbitration and will be eligible for free agency after 2008.  But these moves would give us AstroCab-Hudson with Carroll as backup for 2008.  For 2009, we keep Carroll on a cheap option and move Josh Rodriguez into the utility role, or start him at 2B if he's ready for a long look.

The downside is that Arizona would have no interest in Peralta, so we'd have to have a second deal in place to spin him off -- presumably for Jason Bay.

by Jay on Dec 20, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
I'd think they'd be in the same position we are, trying to maximize '08 chances. Hudson is pretty key for them.

One guy I have been thinking about, although it's more of a trade for the future, is Chris Nelson of the Rockies system. He was a #1 choice from BP's high school, and although he started slow, he really came on last year and could blossom into a really good middle infielder.

He's blocked by Tulo and there are other SS/2B prospects in their system, and they need pitching.

by mcrose on Dec 20, 2007 11:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
And so we come full circle to the Baywatch.  I like the Hudson gambit.  The D'Backs just traded Callaspo to KC, so maybe they do plan to move Hudson and use Burke as a placeholder for Bonifacio, who is at least a year away.  

Josh Rodriguez moving in at 2B in 2009 seems overly sanguine, though.

ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Dec 20, 2007 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Burke is perennially underrated ... talk about a guy never getting a real opportunity.  (For those who don't know, Burke was passed over for starting 2B basically for three years, for no other reason except to get Biggio his 3000 hits.)

Agreed that Josh is far from a lock for 2009, or ever.  But the bigger idea is that we have three guys who potentially could work out as a reasonable starter for 2009 -- Carroll, Rodriguez and Barfield.  That seems like enough depth that it wouldn't stop you from making a move.

by Jay on Dec 20, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
we may soon have an entire team of 2nd baseman

by rustyparts on Dec 21, 2007 6:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Like the pre-Alomar days, right?  What was the number, Omar played next to something like 16 different second basemen over 2.5 seasons, mid-1996 to 1998, in between Baerga and Alomar (both of whom got shipped to the Mets).  Maybe someone will list them.

by Jay on Dec 21, 2007 8:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Assuming Hudson's injury isn't anything to worry about, he would be a good candidate for a trade. He gets on base a decent clip and has already had a few seasons of success in the AL.

Arizona is a good match on a couple of levels. They could certainly use starting pitching at the back of their rotation. I hope they feel they can do better than Doug Davis as their #3. Cliff Lee and change could be enough to get Hudson to the Cleveland. Peralta too, might be a quality addition for them. Given that their lineup posted a sub-.250 average for the year, they are one of the few teams that would be willing to overlook Peralta's defensive shortcomings because the offensive improvement he'd represent.

by crazymoloh on Dec 20, 2007 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
What am I missing here? They're coming off a playoff appearance and just traded away half their farm system to acquire their new star pitcher. And now they will turn around and trade their best position player for nothing special in return?

And if we do put together a real package to get him, we get one year and Hudson's gone, the kind of trade usually thought of as a sucker deal.

Why would either team do it?

by mcrose on Dec 20, 2007 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
What am I missing here? They're coming off a playoff appearance and just traded away half their farm system to acquire their new star pitcher. And now they will turn around and trade their best position player for nothing special in return?

And if we do put together a real package to get him, we get one year and Hudson's gone, the kind of trade usually thought of as a sucker deal.

  1. They didn't sacrifice any of their middle infield prospects in the Haren trade.

  2. Why trade their best position player (I don't buy your premise)? As you mentioned, Hudson is gone in a year. That's why.

  3. The back end of their rotation still has a few question marks. Back end starting talent we have plenty of.

  4. Precisely because Hudson has only a year is unlikely to command an insane price.

 

by crazymoloh on Dec 20, 2007 2:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Just seems to me they're trying to make an even better run than they did last year, and after stoking their rotation with the trade, why would they take away a key part of their lineup with no real replacement?

I would trade him for Lee in a heartbeat, I just think you guys are underestimating his value to that team next year.

by mcrose on Dec 20, 2007 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Depends on how much they believe Chris Burke can give them. In 2006, Hudson was worth 85 RC. If Chris Burke can get into replacement territory - 55 runs, Lee/Sowers would have to represent an upgrade of their #5 spot by the same amount.

The ERAs of their #3/#4/#5 starters were - 4.67, 4.78 and 5.38. This was in the NL, mind you. Not to mention that the NL West features four other teams with uber spacious ballparks and three other teams with pedestrian offenses.

by crazymoloh on Dec 20, 2007 3:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
The replacement is Burke.  I don't see Hudson as a key piece for them, I see him as a solid one-year guy for one team or another.  And let's be real here, he's a real nice player but not a star, and it's just one year at reasonable dollars.  He ain't Brian Roberts.

Anyway, I assume if they're willing to trade their closer, their lame duck second baseman is probably in play as well, especially given they managed without him for all of a grueling September and a division series sweep over the Cubs.

by Jay on Dec 20, 2007 4:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
Hey I'd love to have him, he's an elite defender and a plus offensive 2B. I just think they're in a similar position to us right now - maximizing their chances for next year.

by mcrose on Dec 20, 2007 10:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Why not Bedard AND Roberts?
It would be hard to find a team with less of a need for Peralta than Arizona, with two young emerging stars (or at least solid players) at both shortstop and third base.

They might have an interest in Lee, but my immediate thought was that they might have an interest in repleneshing their farm system a bit, now that they've shipped five guys to Oakland and graduated so many to the majors in the past year.

by Jay on Dec 20, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions  

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