Indians a finalist for Clement

by em3 on Dec 30, 2007 1:05 PM EST Comment 34 comments

Not sure this is good news for the tribe, but a pittsburgh paper names them and the pirates as the two finalists for Matt Clement.

It notes that Clement would like to stay close to his home in Butler. Pittsburgh, however, may not be willing to offer him a major league candidate, whereas Cleveland might.

I'm not sure he'd be a good fit for Cleveland unless a Cliff Lee trade is made, at which point it would be nice to add depth. Thoughts?

Story below:
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/30/pirates-rumors-clement-benson-runelvys/

0 recs | Comment 34 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

He looks a lot like Lee - league-average if he pans out. I'd rather just stick with Cliff.

by Voltaire on Dec 30, 2007 1:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Cliff Lee was below league avg. last year. He may be due to bounce back to league avg., but he certainly hasn't trended towards that.

by hans on Dec 30, 2007 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Yeah, but Clement's never been really more than average, too.

by Voltaire on Dec 31, 2007 12:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

i would say, rather, that both have had above average stretches in the past. other than that, though, they're not really that comparable. like lee with the indians from 04-06, clement had a good three year stretch with the cubs from 02-04 once he was able to get his walk rates down. but clement did it with better k rates (league helped some, presumably) and without lee's dangerously low GB% (in 02, clement was westbrookesque at 62%). in comparison, lee's success looks flukier.

clement has shown alternately the ability to post high k rates and to induce ground balls, but hasn't ever seemed to put it all together at once. he's 32 now and the signs of promise he showed with the cubs didn't appear to survive the league switch, though it's not clear how much that had to do with shoulder pain. i wouldn't pay a lot for him, but i'm for giving him a shot. i know laffey gets referred to a lot as "untouchable" around here, and maybe he can continue to GB his way to success, but another option for #5 would be nice.

by emil minty on Dec 31, 2007 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

1. Pittsburgh Paper
Means nothing

He sucks
He is a great person
Why?
*&%$@

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages ... It is ridiculed It is violently opposed Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Dec 30, 2007 5:22 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Nice list. Very convincing.

If he can be had for not much, it'd be a great pick up. You cannot have too much pitching.

by CU Adam on Dec 31, 2007 12:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

I wouldn't dismiss Clements so quickly. He's had moments of excellence, moments of mediocrity, and months of rehab. As always, it's a question of cost vs. possible reward.

He's historically been tough on righty hitters, and Detroit has a lineup full of them.

I don't know what figures are being discussed, but a guy who wants to stay near his W. Pa. home is not likely to turn down the Tribe because of geographical preferences, as so many players do.

by Rochester on Dec 30, 2007 6:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Well this would counter the D.Willis pick up by the tigers!

by hans on Dec 30, 2007 6:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Ha..good one.

by em3 on Dec 30, 2007 11:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

No. It was pedestrian.

by Jay on Dec 31, 2007 12:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

I'm actually serious (well not about the "countering" part, though). As Clement's last viable year he put up similar numbers to what Willis put up last year, except Clement did it in the AL and Willis still sucked even though he was in the NL. So its more of a slap in the face to the Willis pick up by the Tigers being anything more than us picking up Clement to be a fifth starter.

by hans on Dec 31, 2007 2:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

I imagine it can only be $1 million guaranteed money. If another starter is traded, why not?

by nickjs21 on Dec 31, 2007 9:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Any starting pitcher for $1 million isn't bad.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 31, 2007 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Yeah, basically, but there is a limit, right?

Don't ask me why, but I think of a guy like J.D. Martin -- who is not a free agent, he was outrighted to Buffalo, so he's still ours for another year, and for as long as we want him on the 40-man after that.

But anyway, let's say he was a free agent. Would you rather give a $1 million deal to a guy like that -- never made the majors, but seems to have the talent -- or a guy like Clement? Before you answer, consider two things. First, here's Clement's last three seasons:

2005 -- 32 starts, 191 IP, 4.57 ERA
2006 -- 12 starts, 65.3 IP, 6.61 ERA
2007 -- 0 starts, 0 IP, -.-- ERA

Wow, did this guy hit the market at the right time -- coming off three seasons averaging 31 starts and a 4.30 ERA. He wasn't a good pitcher before that, and he's barely been a pitcher at all since. Not only is there injury risk, but given that 2005 season was his best in the AL, I think you have to consider "league average ERA" his ceiling -- in other words, even if healthy, his projection would be as a #4 starter.

The other thing to consider is the upside of the contract. If you take a flier on a guy who never made the majors, and he has a big year, even in Triple-A, you can add him to the 40-man and control him for another 7 or 8 years. With a scrap heap major leaguer, there generally is no payoff beyond the current season.

This of course is not an either/or proposition. You can give Clement $1 million, figuring him as a coin-flip to be a #5 starter, and you can then also find some J.D. Martin type of dude out there and give him $1 million as well. I just wonder if never-made-its are somewhat undervalued in the market, given how expensive pitching has become in general. Rafael Betancourt was a free agent never-made-it once.

by Jay on Dec 31, 2007 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Yeah, good points. Even with Clement's past three years of mediocrity, I'd still take a flier on him for a mil and as you suggested, you can still find a JD Martin kind of guy. At very least, it's SP depth which is always a plus, and if Clement can stay healthy, he has the potential to put up some decent numbers. Even for a cash-strapped team like the Tribe, a $1 million gamble seems like a worthwile risk.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 31, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

"He wasn't a good pitcher before that, and he's barely been a pitcher at all since."

I'm not exactly buying this statement. Clement was BA's 16th and 10th rated prospect in '98 and '99 respectfully, regarded to have excellent "stuff", and had an excellent year in 2004 (9.5 K/G 3.91 FIP)preceded by two very good years, where he posted very good K/G rates.

I think Clement has markedly more upside than Martin, and would be much more likely to give league avg. performance. Your point about the contract status makes sense, but in the overall picture a team's farm system (in this case the Indians) has multiple players of Martin's ceiling in the minors already (Miller, Lofgren, Laffey, Sowers, Smith, etc) adding another may be financially prudent, but is also less likely to impact the major league roster the way Clement could.

by hans on Dec 31, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

I should point out that I meant to say "at least Martin's ceiling" when talking about the other minor league pitchers in our system.

by hans on Dec 31, 2007 12:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

"He wasn't a good pitcher before that, and he's barely been a pitcher at all since."

Just to be clear, when I wrote "before that," I meant before the three seasons preceding his last contract, that is, before 2002 -- not described very clearly I guess. I agree with your assessments of 2004 ("excellent") and 2002-2003 ("very good").

I don't see what his old prospect reports really tell us that isn't superseded by his ten years in the majors. However highly regarded he was as a prospect in '98, the fact remains that he was not a good major league pitcher yet for 1999-2001.

by Jay on Dec 31, 2007 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Clement has always been able to get strikeouts, though, and that's why I personally think he'd be a nice low-risk option. Of course, I see him fitting better as a middle reliever/backup starter type. IMO, he's the type of guy who could thrive as a reliever...his control problems would be less of a problem as a power reliever (a la Kerry Wood).

by Kos on Dec 31, 2007 4:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Is that before or after we move Cliff Lee to the bullpen? (I kid.)

He does seem a little Shueyesque, doesn't he? But it largely depends not only on his willingness to try a re-invention -- look at the money relievers are getting! -- but also on how his injury issues interact with the specific demands of being a reliever. Personally I'm very fuzzy on that subject, so I won't venture a guess.

by Jay on Dec 31, 2007 8:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

I think it'd be interesting to pursue and see if he would be amenable. At this point in his career, (or what's left of it), its not that bad of an idea to switch to the pen.

Officially starting up and driving the trade for Bedard bandwagon. Also, local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer."

by mjmarble on Jan 2, 2008 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Do the Indians take a look at J.D. Martin as a reliever? Is there a reason not to?

by fleerdon on Jan 2, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Somebody post...something!

by Voltaire on Jan 2, 2008 1:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

You first.

by Jay on Jan 2, 2008 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

I know this is rather unoriginal, but I'd take my chances on Clement as backup over Lee as backup. I just have lost all faith in Lee. I'm pretty sure I've talked myself into this position because just 14 months ago I was very high on him. I think he might find success elsewhere in the majors, just not with the Tribe again.

I see both Clement and Lee as reclamation projects and Clement at least will cost less and free up more cash for that CC attempted signing.

Officially starting up and driving the trade for Bedard bandwagon. Also, local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer."

by mjmarble on Jan 2, 2008 4:48 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Clement could be a solid #4 or #5 for any team. I like him for the right price - less then $5M for 1 year.

Funny Jessica Alba post at this site! ha

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/01/off-field-fleeces-gofer-hits-jackpot-lands-alba/

by ET90210 on Jan 2, 2008 6:13 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians a finalist for Clement

Im not sure how well its been reported around the league, but a big reason for the dropoff in Clement's success was (in my opinion) due to the fact that he took a line drive to the face and really lost his confidence. If im not mistaken, he started 8-0 for the Red Sox before he took the shot to the grille.

Seems to me he's more of a psychological turnaround versus mechanics. Much like a Mark Wohlers, perhaps.

God truly does hate cleveland sports.

by Gradysmanldy on Jan 3, 2008 1:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs