Bay Hard With a Vengeance
More Jason Bay. I thought that was over.
In a surprising twist, the Pirates and Cleveland Indians revived talks at the Opryland Hotel late last night and developed a framework for a five-player trade, Bay and catcher Ronny Paulino going to Cleveland for outfielder Franklin Gutierrez, catcher Kelly Shoppach and either starter Cliff Lee or a minor-league pitching prospect.The deal is not done. The sides are expected to continue talking late this morning.
Mark, don't panic just because Detroit made ESPN talking heads freak out. I was liking that Lee to St. Louis for Reyes/Anderson deal better.
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Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Thing is, we don't really match up very well with the Pirates. They're up to their eyeballs in lefty starters, and so are we. They've got catching depth, and so do we (although ours is considerably better). So the only piece of ours Huntington is going to really, really want is Gutierrez.
I like Bay. But this is too much for a gamble on a guy with declining stats and possibly a bum knee.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
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Considering previous rumors, I'd say everybody's boycrush Franky Gutz is the one that's been overrated.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
To me, that's a much more favorable scenario, and we haven't even done anything with the excess OFers yet. I think a Shoppach/Francisco package would look good.
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by APV on Dec 5, 2007 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
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I'm all about Shapiro shaking things up and moving Lee (not necessarily in the same move) but this just does not help us at all.
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by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions
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I think the Pirates would get considerably better, though.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
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by Turkmenbashi on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
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The Reds have many OF'ers that they would move and would be much better, in my opinion, than Bay or just about anyone talked about to fill LF. In their OF they have only 3 spots for: Dunn, Griffey, Hopper, Freel, Jay Bruce, Hamilton. I'd take any of their excess (I'd prefer Bruce, Dunn or Hamilton). Reading Reds sites and listening to reports about them, they say they are going to land a pitcher via trade soon... why not Lee or Sowers? For example, I could see a Lee for Hamilton as the basis for a very fair deal that could help both sides. They also need a catcher, so maybe they'd be interested in Shoppach too.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
by woodsmeister on Dec 5, 2007 11:20 AM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
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by Joe on Dec 5, 2007 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
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by Joe on Dec 5, 2007 9:52 AM EST reply actions
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by JPFrost on Dec 5, 2007 10:19 AM EST reply actions
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Dealing Shoppach and Lee is fine by me, but throwing Gutz into mix seems like a bit much considering Jason Bay's skills are somewhat declining.
Wouldn't it be nice if they threw Freddy Sanchez in somehow? I'd then be okay with throwing in Gutz and someone else as well.
by Dan W on Dec 5, 2007 10:27 AM EST reply actions
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Live Free or Bay Hard
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by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 AM EST reply actions
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by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions
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Then again, this is probably just a silly, stupid rumor. There's no way Mark would make that deal. Right ... right ... right ... right?
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 11:13 AM EST reply actions
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I'm not really sure what I think about this. Bay had an awful year last year, but he's coming off of three great ones in a row. But if you look at the stats, Hafner actually had a larger drop (45 for Bay vs. 61 for Hafner) in his OPS+ and nobody around here is saying he's totally worthless. We'd be buying low on an outfielder with 30+ HR potential in exchange for Franklin Gutierrez, whose MOST OPTOMISTIC upside would basically be turning into Bay.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
No permalink so that's just to today's blog.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Bay 2007 EqA: .266
Course it's also true that Bay put up .325 and .314 in 2005 and 2006.
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by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
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Although I'm skeptical of Gutz' upside, I wouldn't do this deal even if you pare it down to just Gutz for Bay. Throw in Shoppach, and it really stinks (and I think Shop was hitting over his head this season).
Am I missing something about Paulino?
by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:04 PM EST reply actions
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Yes Skip, that's how prospects work. You trade a number of unproven players who are projected to be very good for players who have already established themselves. One side of the deal is going to have much better numbers in the major leagues than the other at the time of the trade, but this does not make the trade a bad deal. You have to wait to determine whether or not the prospects pan out to determine whether or not it worked. See Mark Mulder for one Dan Haren as just one example.
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by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Dec 5, 2007 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
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by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:14 PM EST reply actions
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by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
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Some of these same people declared the Tigers World Series Champions in June 2007.
You better believe I was bumping that thread often throughout August and September.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Game over, man.
by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
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- Tribe has additional talent
- Sabathia hasn't publicly cracked on the front office for not trying to win, making it plain he won't be around past 2008
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by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM EST reply actions
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Though the Tribe is built for the long haul, with prospects galore and great system depth, aces are not something you can pick up any day, even with great prospects. We've got CC for at least one more year, and the door is open for more. We are contending for the World Series right now, with this team as it is built right now, other teams' moves be damned. If we lose CC, it's a lot harder to make that argument, no matter who we get in return.
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by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 12:44 PM EST up reply actions
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- Would you stop watching games? I'm counting you as a true fan.
- No matter who we got? Seriously?
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And no, not no matter who we got. CC for Beckett? Sign me up. Johan Santana, who then signs a 5 year/$90M contract? Sold. But if we traded CC to the Yankees for Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera, I'd be pissed.
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- Don't expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.
- The Blue Jays are not going to trade A.J. Burnett, Alex Rios or Troy Glaus -- for now. Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi will probably head home today.
by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:38 PM EST reply actions
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by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 12:40 PM EST reply actions
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This is good for this year, bad for the future, I think.
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Still, they will overpay for him, and I do think that it will catch up with them eventually.
Plus, Santana will be out of the division, and most importantly, the Twins don't get a Bortolo Colon or AJ Pierzynski return for him. They get nothing. I'm much happier with this scenario than with them getting 3 stud prospects. Like Shapiro said on Monday, if you tell me that we get to play the Yankees and Red Sox every year in the playoffs, I don't care who their starters are, I'll take it.
Its about getting to the playoffs and the easiest/best way to do that is winning the Central. The Central just got a bunch weaker in the very near future with Santana leaving in 08 for nothing.
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by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
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by The DiaTriber on Dec 5, 2007 3:04 PM EST up reply actions
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:51 PM EST reply actions
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by Kid Cleveland on Dec 5, 2007 1:35 PM EST reply actions
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I mean really. We're going to trade our RF to get a worse LF?
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"With the Twins in search of middle-infield help, one potential target is free agent David Eckstein. "I've always had a lot of respect for him," said Minnesota manager Ron Gardenhire. "He catches the ball. He knows how to play. He's a proven winner."
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
"I catch the ball."
"Welcome aboard!"
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apparently, it was a pittsburgh beat writer trying to drum something up on his own all along.
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"Obviously, people know we have seven starters," Shapiro said. "I don't view that as a ton of depth, because we don't know who No. 8 would be."
I'm glad that was just a rumor, because it
Bay may have a more proven track record than Gutierrez, but by most accounts, had a sub-par season in 2007 and is older than Gutierrez. Not to mention that Gutz's defense is superior to Bay's. Plus, you don't get an OF in return, and arguably, that might be the one position player we could use (that and 3B, perhaps.) This trade would not have addressed that.
Nor would have it addressed our bullpen, our other main area of concern. Paulino is decent to solid enough, but getting him with Shoppach would have been a marginal upgrade at best in my opinion (about equivalent defensively and a year younger.)
Personally, I like the Lee for Reyes/Anderson or something for Hamilton (Lee + prospect, maybe even Sowers + prospect; I might do Laffey + prospect, but would be less thrilled with that deal - I'd try to sell them on the idea that Lee is young enough to rebound or that Sowers could be solid for them - after all, they did draft Sowers 20th overall back in 2001, but couldn't sign him, so perhaps they might be intrigued enough by his age and their past interest in him to take him instead of Laffey. My preferred order of trading them would be Lee/Sowers/Laffey.)
Just my 2 cents. :-)
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
pitching is everything--starting pitching even more--cliff lee has more value than you all may believe---just my opinion, but standing pat with the team you have is not an unattractive option for the tribe.
by rustyparts on Dec 5, 2007 9:02 PM EST reply actions
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They also note on page 2 that they are looking for a utility infielder, which isn't a need I've heard before. This is terribly exciting news that probably deserves its own diary (in opposite world).
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Not picking on you or anyone else here, but it seems that alot of speculation here heavily overrates our own guys and the despair of other teams to give up talent for our disposable parts.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
One internet messageboard at a time.
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
by Jay on Dec 6, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions
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by The DiaTriber on Dec 6, 2007 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
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Maybe all Cliff Lee needs is a fresh start. He certainly has the stuff, when he can locate it, to be a #2/#3 starter. That's why Cliff Lee has value on the trade market. However, I think it's hard to know what the true market for Lee, or for that matter, any free agent or tradeable pitcher is until the Twins either fish or cut bait on Santana. After that, the remaining chips start to fall into place.
by woodsmeister on Dec 6, 2007 11:03 AM EST up reply actions
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Those young guys the Dodgers could trade still have better contracts.
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I don't believe for a minute that the Dodgers would seriously talk to us about the Cliffhanger unless and until they are totally out of the running on Santana, Haren and/or Blanton, or that any other team really will either. Cliff Lee, right now, is a better consolation prize than Kyle Lohse or Carlos Silva.
by woodsmeister on Dec 6, 2007 11:27 AM EST up reply actions
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by JulioBernazard on Dec 6, 2007 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
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by Jay on Dec 6, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
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Jeremy Hermida?
2B
Re: 2B
Then I remembered that in this timeline he made the trade for Barfield, but when it catches up to the point when Shapiro travels back in time to choose not to make the trade (I'm assuming any day now), it will be like this timeline never existed and Barfield will still be in the NL. Damn, that Shapiro he's always one step ahead!
Yes, Shapiro is a time-master! :-)
"Shapiro I know you built one of those flux capacitor machines and routinely travel to the future to see how players end up turning out before you make trades and FA signings. Why the hell would you trade for Barfield when you knew he was going to suck in 2007? than trade for Carroll in 2008?"
All we need to confirm that is to get a tricorder and scan Shapiro for chronometric particles - then we'll know he's been time-travelling. :-)
"Then I remembered that in this timeline he made the trade for Barfield, but when it catches up to the point when Shapiro travels back in time to choose not to make the trade (I'm assuming any day now), it will be like this timeline never existed and Barfield will still be in the NL. Damn, that Shapiro he's always one step ahead!"
That, or he might have went back to around 2006 and is working out a deal that tops Boston's offer for Beckett, leading to us getting him and we winning our first WS in 59 years. Or, maybe he went way back to around 1995 and convinced John Hart that he'll eventually trade Giles for Rincon and should just include Giles in that deal now for Randy Johnson. Or maybe back to 1997 and convinced Hart that Jaret Wright's career will hit bumps in the road after 1997 and to just include him in the deal for Pedro Martinez. Just imagine the possibilities - Shapiro is working in multiple time frames to bring us that elusive WS Championship!
It's nice to dream, isn't it? :-)
Re: Yes, Shapiro is a time-master! :-)
Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
by E5 on Dec 11, 2007 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
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if it makes anyone here feel any better, most of us pirates fans don't like the trade proposal either.
by illinest on Dec 12, 2007 12:47 AM EST reply actions

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