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Bay Hard With a Vengeance

More Jason Bay.  I thought that was over.

In a surprising twist, the Pirates and Cleveland Indians revived talks at the Opryland Hotel late last night and developed a framework for a five-player trade, Bay and catcher Ronny Paulino going to Cleveland for outfielder Franklin Gutierrez, catcher Kelly Shoppach and either starter Cliff Lee or a minor-league pitching prospect.

The deal is not done. The sides are expected to continue talking late this morning.

Mark, don't panic just because Detroit made ESPN talking heads freak out.  I was liking that Lee to St. Louis for Reyes/Anderson deal better.

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Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
mannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.... that better be no more than just a rumor.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 5, 2007 8:47 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'm glad I'm not the only one that doesn't like this deal for us, as it's presented here. Bay's just not nearly enough of a sure thing for me to give up  Shoppach AND Gutierrez. They're welcome to Lee.

Thing is, we don't really match up very well with the Pirates. They're up to their eyeballs in lefty starters, and so are we. They've got catching depth, and so do we (although ours is considerably better).  So the only piece of ours Huntington is going to really, really want is Gutierrez.

I like Bay. But this is too much for a gamble on a guy with declining stats and possibly a bum knee.

by mrich on Dec 5, 2007 8:54 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
we'd get a leftfielder but who'd be our rightfielder?

by ASP on Dec 5, 2007 8:55 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Garbage trade, but also a good indicator that Cliff Lee is HIGHLY overrated by some people here at LGT.

by Toxicadam on Dec 5, 2007 9:02 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Cliff Lee?

Considering previous rumors, I'd say everybody's boycrush Franky Gutz is the one that's been overrated.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 5, 2007 9:06 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Cliff Lee can apparently get you Anthony Reyes and Bryan Anderson.  Matt Murton can be had for maybe little more than a song and a dance.  Then you're free to explore other deals with Kelly Shoppach.

To me, that's a much more favorable scenario, and we haven't even done anything with the excess OFers yet.  I think a Shoppach/Francisco package would look good.

by nickjs21 on Dec 5, 2007 9:21 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This does seem like a desperation move considering these talks just magically reappeared after the Tigers' trade.  Then again, we thought Alex Rios was on the table at some point, so who knows what the current rumor is based on.  

by Pronk33 on Dec 5, 2007 9:26 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
phew...I was beginning to think I was the only "Ren and Stimpy" fan around here.

by APV on Dec 5, 2007 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This would be a horrible trade.  I just don't like one bit of it -  Gutz is gone before we know what we have (or don't have) in him, Shoppach is gone.  For what?  Bay?  Someone tell me this PIT catcher is some sort of phenom.  I know Bay is admired and man-crushed by many here, but I just don't see how his declining skills, declining numbers and (minor) injury history help us at all?

I'm all about Shapiro shaking things up and moving Lee (not necessarily in the same move) but this just does not help us at all.

Officially starting up and driving the trade for Bedard bandwagon.

by mjmarble on Dec 5, 2007 9:29 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
It sounds as if Lee is in the rumor only as a writer's wish.  He's far more definitive as to the Bay/Paulino for Gutz/Shoppach/a minor league pitcher part. Lets wait a bit, and see if this one develops past a hometown beat writer rumor.

by MTF on Dec 5, 2007 9:34 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
No no no.  Not Gutz. Please.

by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 9:36 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
For Lee and Shoppach? Fine. For Lee, Shoppach and Gutz? No way in hell. Gutz has the potential to put up Bay-like numbers with way better defense. Trading Gutz for Bay fills the LF hole and creates a RF hole that we'd have to fill with a platoon. I really don't see what we'd stand to gain from this?

I think the Pirates would get considerably better, though.

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 5, 2007 9:38 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This rumor has got to be false or overblown, but I'm still freaking out over the Gutierrez part.  I'm in the camp that believes he'll be a major talent next year, like, as effective as Bay, and cheap of course.

by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 10:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Agreed. Gutz on the upswing is more valuable to this team than Bay on the downswing. I don't know that I'd do the trade straight up, let alone including Shoppach and Lee.
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 5, 2007 10:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Oh, please no.  Like Turk, Lee & Shoppach, fine.  But I really don't get the point of trading Gutz. for Bay.  I'd much rather Shap. just go get Josh Hamilton, if it takes Lee and Crowe/Shoppach, so be it.  But this proposed deal I don't like one bit.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.

by jdudas on Dec 5, 2007 9:43 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I live in Cincinnati, so I kinda follow the reds, if for nothing else to have something to talk with sports fans down here.  I really really really don't understand why there hasn't been any more talk of the Reds and Indians getting together for a trade.  Seem like perfect trade partners to me.  

The Reds have many OF'ers that they would move and would be much better, in my opinion, than Bay or just about anyone talked about to fill LF.  In their OF they have only 3 spots for: Dunn, Griffey, Hopper, Freel, Jay Bruce, Hamilton.  I'd take any of their excess (I'd prefer Bruce, Dunn or Hamilton).  Reading Reds sites and listening to reports about them, they say they are going to land a pitcher via trade soon... why not Lee or Sowers?  For example, I could see a Lee for Hamilton as the basis for a very fair deal that could help both sides.  They also need a catcher, so maybe they'd be interested in Shoppach too.

by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 5, 2007 11:12 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Lee, with his fly ball splits, would be a very bad fit for Cincinnati given their bandbox of a park.  After the Eric Milton Experience, I think the Reds are justifiably leery about fly ball pitchers.  Laffey, on the other hand, would be an excellet fit for the Reds.  I would do a Hamilton for Laffey deal.
"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Dec 5, 2007 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I would also be fine with a Laffey for Hamilton deal, although I am, admittedly, not very high on Laffey.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.

by jdudas on Dec 5, 2007 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Meh, Laffey would be the last of the Lee/Sowers/Laffey pitchers I'd trade. No thanks.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Obviously and I'm with you there, but Hamilton is an enormous return in my opinion. I might actually do that.

by Joe on Dec 5, 2007 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I have all the faith in the world in Mark, but I'm starting to wonder whether dealing with the Pirates FO may not be the best idea in the world. They just seem...I dunno, a little too smart these days. Let's go fleece another team.

by supermarioelia on Dec 5, 2007 9:45 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Let's wait until it's somebody other than a Pittsburgh reporter (i.e. ESPN, Prospectus, Hoynes) before we get too concerned here.  This would make zero sense.  

by cheech99 on Dec 5, 2007 9:50 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Ew. That would be the opposite of good.

by Joe on Dec 5, 2007 9:52 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
What's really weird about this proposed trade to me is that to my admittedly extremely untrained eye, Shoppach and Paulino appear to be practically the same player.  Shoppach has a slightly more pronounced split and Paulino is a year younger, but they're both decent-hitting youngish catchers with very good defensive skills, as far as I can tell.

by VA tribe fan on Dec 5, 2007 9:54 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'd like this deal if it were Francisco instead of Gutz. If only they'd take Lee, Shoppach, Francisco and maybe some non-prospect minor leaguer for Bay and Paulino.

by JPFrost on Dec 5, 2007 10:19 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'm really hoping they don't make a deal just for the sake of making a deal.

Dealing Shoppach and Lee is fine by me, but throwing Gutz into mix seems like a bit much considering Jason Bay's skills are somewhat declining.

Wouldn't it be nice if they threw Freddy Sanchez in somehow? I'd then be okay with throwing in Gutz and someone else as well.

by Dan W on Dec 5, 2007 10:27 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
and this thread title is so awesome.

by ASP on Dec 5, 2007 10:27 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
With the negative reactions in this thread, the next one shoud be:

Live Free or Bay Hard

by KevinV on Dec 5, 2007 11:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Glad you liked it.  I figured this was at least the third diary on the subject, so why not?  Yippee kay yay, I say.

by nickjs21 on Dec 5, 2007 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I would be happier if they included casey blake in a deal for anyone.  Still not over game 7.

by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
If we'd take the guys they mention and call that 'minor league pitcher' Adam Miller, and then ship them for Lincecum, totally fine by me.

by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 10:34 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This is nothing but a reporter passing gas.

by ploni on Dec 5, 2007 10:37 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'm not as upset as most seem to be, primarily because I'm skeptical as to how much upside Gutz really has.  But if they're gonna go off half-cocked to make a counter-splash in response to the Cabrera/Willis trade, resigning Sabathia should do it.

by maledicta on Dec 5, 2007 10:56 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I agree, although it MAY mean they've started talking again.  I doubt the Indians would give up two players whom they really like (and who are very, very trade-able) this cheaply.  Lee is another matter, but both Gut and Shoppach can bring a good return, so I'd guess this rumor isn't substantial.

by peter m on Dec 5, 2007 10:58 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
OK, I'm on the record saying that I'm not that high on Gutz. That being said, I think Gutz can perform the same - if not better - than Bay in the AL now.

Then again, this is probably just a silly, stupid rumor. There's no way Mark would make that deal. Right ... right ... right ... right?

Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 11:13 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This would be an astronomically stupid deal to make. I see no upside in Bay over Gutierrez (and I am not one of the Gutz for Pres crowd) and the rest of it seems just bizarre. Why trade Shoppach for a catcher and throw Lee in just for kicks? Very odd.
I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Dec 5, 2007 11:43 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Buster Olney is reporting on the ESPN.com winter meetings blog that trade talks between the Indians and Pirates for Jason Bay are dead.

by osoc13 on Dec 5, 2007 11:49 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
If you mean this one, that's from yesterday I think. Sounds like talks have resumed, I guess.

I'm not really sure what I think about this. Bay had an awful year last year, but he's coming off of three great ones in a row. But if you look at the stats, Hafner actually had a larger drop (45 for Bay vs. 61 for Hafner) in his OPS+ and nobody around here is saying he's totally worthless. We'd be buying low on an outfielder with 30+ HR potential in exchange for Franklin Gutierrez, whose MOST OPTOMISTIC upside would basically be turning into Bay.

by zempf on Dec 5, 2007 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
No, I mean the one posted at 10:23 this morning.

 Here

No permalink so that's just to today's blog.

by osoc13 on Dec 5, 2007 12:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Ah, gotcha. I couldn't find a link to the current blog anywhere.. stupid ESPN.

by zempf on Dec 5, 2007 12:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
No worries. I'm just glad to see another report saying this is dead.

by osoc13 on Dec 5, 2007 12:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Gutz 2007 EqA:  .276
Bay 2007 EqA:  .266

Course it's also true that Bay put up .325 and .314 in 2005 and 2006.

by maledicta on Dec 5, 2007 11:55 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOO!

by crazymoloh on Dec 5, 2007 12:04 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Buster reports that this deal is dead. Frankly the inclusion of Gutierrez was too absurd to be true.

by crazymoloh on Dec 5, 2007 12:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'd like to think that our FO is above making knee-jerk trades; we'd be negotiating from a position of extraordinary weakness.

Although I'm skeptical of Gutz' upside, I wouldn't do this deal even if you pare it down to just Gutz for Bay. Throw in Shoppach, and it really stinks (and I think Shop was hitting over his head this season).

Am I missing something about Paulino?

by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:04 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Skip Bayless on 1st and 10 just now:  "The Tigers flat out stole Miguel Cabrera."

Yes Skip, that's how prospects work.  You trade a number of unproven players who are projected to be very good for players who have already established themselves.  One side of the deal is going to have much better numbers in the major leagues than the other at the time of the trade, but this does not make the trade a bad deal.  You have to wait to determine whether or not the prospects pan out to determine whether or not it worked.  See Mark Mulder for one Dan Haren as just one example.

by maledicta on Dec 5, 2007 12:12 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
It's sort of hard to imagine, but Skip Bayless may say the dumbest things of all the ESPN reporters.  They all really seem to vie for that honor, but he's just so consistent with his idiocy.

by CU Adam on Dec 5, 2007 12:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Could be because he concetrates so hard on it.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 5, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I think it's a horserace between Bayless and Steven A. Smith, but I'm sure Bayless will pull ahead once he's asked to analyze Ohio State's chances in the championship.

by maledicta on Dec 5, 2007 12:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Skip Bayless on 1st and 10 just now:  "The Tigers flat out stole DOYLE ALEXANDER."

by stuart dean on Dec 5, 2007 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Why are there no talks of trading Sabathia?  We could prob get similar value to Santana.

by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:14 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Because the Indians want to win next season.

by Ryan on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Didn't you hear? Once the Tigers got Cabrera, Selig actually awarded them the pennant. The Indians aren't even going to bother playing next year.

by zempf on Dec 5, 2007 12:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Oof, I concede to your superior posting speed.

by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
No need to concede, there's room for many smartasses in these parts.

by zempf on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
i read often, but post somewhat infrequently, on a sports handicappers website (you know, if sports gambling were legal), and there's plenty of michigan/detroit fans on it who believe they have indeed, won the 2008 pennant last night.

Some of these same people declared the Tigers World Series Champions in June 2007.

You better believe I was bumping that thread often throughout August and September.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 5, 2007 12:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Were you not paying attention yesterday? The Tigers got Cabrera and Willis. Nothing left for the Indians to do but blow it up.

Game over, man.

by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 5, 2007 12:22 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Not sure if any of you guys listened to the Baseball Tonight coverage, but they essentially crowned the Tigers then and there (cue Denny Green montage).  They kept going on and on about how great it was for Detroit fans to have a championship team again.  Righhhhhhht.  

by Pronk33 on Dec 5, 2007 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Something about the BBTN crew loving the trade makes me like it even more from a Tribe fan's perspective.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 5, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
The value the Twins are looking at for Johan is sh*t, that's why.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Differences between Tribe and Sabathia vs. Twins and Santana:

  1. Tribe has additional talent
  2. Sabathia hasn't publicly cracked on the front office for not trying to win, making it plain he won't be around past 2008

by maledicta on Dec 5, 2007 12:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This was good logic before the Tigers brought their Magic Number to 0 yesterday with that trade.  It's White Flag time, boys.  I hope Shapiro is on the phone with Kenny Williams right now, asking to borrow theirs.

by CU Adam on Dec 5, 2007 12:35 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Neyer's response I just found...They're in a tough spot with him, because of course they're supposed to win 95 games again in 2008. Trading Sabathia would be a tough pill for the fans to swallow, particularly considering the Indians will be charging substantially more for their tickets next season (I'm assuming).

by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:27 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
If its handled the right way and a Sabathia trade brings in ML-ready talent, I doubt the impact on the fans will that much. The whiners who never go to games anyway will whine way. Big deal. The Indians just re-signed Hafner and Westbrook last year. Cheapskates, they are not. True fans will be receptive to a good trade. Bandwagon fans just want a winning product. Whiners? Well, f*** them!

by crazymoloh on Dec 5, 2007 12:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I totally disagree.  I am anything but a bandwagon fan, and I'd be really discouraged if traded CC for nearly anything at this point.  It would have to be an absurd offer before I was okay with it.

Though the Tribe is built for the long haul, with prospects galore and great system depth, aces are not something you can pick up any day, even with great prospects.  We've got CC for at least one more year, and the door is open for more.  We are contending for the World Series right now, with this team as it is built right now, other teams' moves be damned.  If we lose CC, it's a lot harder to make that argument, no matter who we get in return.

by CU Adam on Dec 5, 2007 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'm with you. I was initially of the Trade CC mind, but I really think we can win it all in 08 if we keep him.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
  1. Would you stop watching games? I'm counting you as a true fan.

  2. No matter who we got? Seriously?

by crazymoloh on Dec 5, 2007 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I would not stop watching games pretty much no matter what.  Maybe if we traded CC, Grady, and Fausto the White Sox for prospects and Juan Uribe, and then signed Barry Bonds.  That might upset me slightly.

And no, not no matter who we got.  CC for Beckett?  Sign me up.  Johan Santana, who then signs a 5 year/$90M contract?  Sold.  But if we traded CC to the Yankees for Phil Hughes and Melky Cabrera, I'd be pissed.

by CU Adam on Dec 5, 2007 1:33 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
  • Don't expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.

  • The Blue Jays are not going to trade A.J. Burnett, Alex Rios or Troy Glaus -- for now. Toronto GM J.P. Ricciardi will probably head home today.

by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:38 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Not sure if this deserves it's own diary, but Peter Gammons is saying the Twins are going to keep Santana.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 5, 2007 12:40 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
So now what?  I'm not sure how I feel about this.  Even though the Tribe's chances are improved in '08 with Santana on the Twins as compared to the Sox or Yanks, those teams are still hands-down favorites to sign him next year when he's a free agent -- and they won't have to give up stud prospects to do so.

This is good for this year, bad for the future, I think.

by CU Adam on Dec 5, 2007 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I haven't thought of it quite like that--- The Yanks will probably end up with Santana plus still Hughes, Melky Cabrera and whatever else they might have had to give up to get him this year. (Or the Red Sox will get him without giving up any talent).

Still, they will overpay for him, and I do think that it will catch up with them eventually.

Plus, Santana will be out of the division, and most importantly, the Twins don't get a Bortolo Colon or AJ Pierzynski return for him.  They get nothing.  I'm much happier with this scenario than with them getting 3 stud prospects.  Like Shapiro said on Monday, if you tell me that we get to play the Yankees and Red Sox every year in the playoffs, I don't care who their starters are, I'll take it.  

Its about getting to the playoffs and the easiest/best way to do that is winning the Central.  The Central just got a bunch weaker in the very near future with Santana leaving in 08 for nothing.  

by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 5, 2007 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
That should guarantee them a nice 80-win season this year.

by maledicta on Dec 5, 2007 12:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Thank God, a sensible (non)move.

by homelytourist on Dec 5, 2007 12:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Actually, the best news in this is that Sabathia's agent has only the Peavy deal as a comparable.

by The DiaTriber on Dec 5, 2007 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
If the Twins are out of it, I bet he goes at the deadline anyway.  In that case we would not only have to face him more in the regular season, but also the playoffs.

by sandersr66 on Dec 5, 2007 12:51 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
He's reportedly told them that he's not going to waive his no-trade clause midseason, so it's either now or never. Personally I'd rather they just resigned him, but Pohlad's cheap so it won't happen.

by zempf on Dec 5, 2007 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Supposedly once again the Tribe brass is calling this rumor "false" and the talks still "dead"
If I see Jim Leyland in an alone at night, I'll smash his pack of cigarettes and shave off his mustache and eyebrows. GO TRIBE!

by Kid Cleveland on Dec 5, 2007 1:35 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Meh. Nothing to see here.

I mean really. We're going to trade our RF to get a worse LF?

by afh4 on Dec 5, 2007 1:37 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
The Twins may get worse even if they keep Santana:

"With the Twins in search of middle-infield help, one potential target is free agent David Eckstein. "I've always had a lot of respect for him," said Minnesota manager Ron Gardenhire. "He catches the ball. He knows how to play. He's a proven winner."

by Brick. on Dec 5, 2007 1:51 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
"So Mr. Eckstein, what can you bring to the Twins' infield?"

"I catch the ball."

"Welcome aboard!"

by Pronk33 on Dec 5, 2007 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
By this measure, the only thing he's got over Nick Punto is that he's a proven winner.
"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Dec 5, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
yes, but Punto is a small fish with sharp little teeth.

by Brick. on Dec 5, 2007 2:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
David Eckstein takes GRIT shits the size of Trot Nixon. Much like teams bringing in veteran pitchers to help their young kids along, Eckstein will bring Punto to a whole new level.

by Toxicadam on Dec 5, 2007 2:24 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
The only problem with this reasoning is that it assumes that Nick Punto lacks grit.  If Punto lacked grit, Gardenhire wouldn't keep running him out there with that sorry batting average. It is likely that the only reason he was out there was because of his excess of grit.  With Punto and Eckstein on the same team, the Twins might be buried in an avelanche of grit so great it would blow the roof off of the TwinkieDome.
"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Dec 5, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071205&content_id=2318410&vkey=news_cle&fext=. jsp&c_id=cle&partnered=rss_cle

apparently, it was a pittsburgh beat writer trying to drum something up on his own all along.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 5, 2007 3:36 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I love this line from the article:

"Obviously, people know we have seven starters," Shapiro said. "I don't view that as a ton of depth, because we don't know who No. 8 would be."

by steincat on Dec 5, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm glad that was just a rumor, because it
didn't seem like an improvement from our point of view.

Bay may have a more proven track record than Gutierrez, but by most accounts, had a sub-par season in 2007 and is older than Gutierrez.  Not to mention that Gutz's defense is superior to Bay's.  Plus, you don't get an OF in return, and arguably, that might be the one position player we could use (that and 3B, perhaps.)  This trade would not have addressed that.

Nor would have it addressed our bullpen, our other main area of concern.  Paulino is decent to solid enough, but getting him with Shoppach would have been a marginal upgrade at best in my opinion (about equivalent defensively and a year younger.)  

Personally, I like the Lee for Reyes/Anderson or something for Hamilton (Lee + prospect, maybe even Sowers + prospect; I might do Laffey + prospect, but would be less thrilled with that deal - I'd try to sell them on the idea that Lee is young enough to rebound or that Sowers could be solid for them - after all, they did draft Sowers 20th overall back in 2001, but couldn't sign him, so perhaps they might be intrigued enough by his age and their past interest in him to take him instead of Laffey.  My preferred order of trading them would be Lee/Sowers/Laffey.)

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Dec 5, 2007 5:04 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
why bother with a worthless pointless trade?
pitching is everything--starting pitching even more--cliff lee has more value than you all may believe---just my opinion, but standing pat with the team you have is not an unattractive option for the tribe.

by rustyparts on Dec 5, 2007 9:02 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
FWIW, the Indians deny the revival of the deal in today's CPD, link.

They also note on page 2 that they are looking for a utility infielder, which isn't a need I've heard before.  This is terribly exciting news that probably deserves its own diary (in opposite world).

by Thommy on Dec 6, 2007 9:18 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Shapiro has mentioned the utility infielder bit once or twice as an aside.  It actually could get interesting if he doesn't trade one of the major leaguers to acquire said utility player.  The 25-man is going to be crowded.

by nickjs21 on Dec 6, 2007 11:23 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
With the signing of Andruw Jones by the Dodgers, and how bad their starters were last year, a trade of Lee to get Ethier, Kemp or Young looks like a better fit than Bay.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 6, 2007 10:08 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
From what I've read, the Dodgers looking to trade one of their prized youngsters for a front-line starter, not a guy who was dropped from the rotation and dangled out there for Anthony Reyes.

Not picking on you or anyone else here, but it seems that alot of speculation here heavily overrates our own guys and the despair of other teams to give up talent for our disposable parts.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 6, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
that's how it always is, every year, for fans of every team.

by ASP on Dec 6, 2007 10:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'm trying to change that.

One internet messageboard at a time.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 6, 2007 11:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Kemp, yes.  But Ethier and Young, hitting the majors at age 24 and 25, are not elite prospects, they're just very good young players -- they're more similar to Garko entering 2007 than Sizemore entering 2006, I'll put it to you that way, or same category as Murton.  I could see one of them as a major piece in a trade for Lee.  Might have to give up something else, but it's a pretty good fit on both sides.

by Jay on Dec 6, 2007 2:28 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
What Young is being included in this list?  Delwyn?

by The DiaTriber on Dec 6, 2007 9:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I'm still trying to figure out why he replied with that info to my post.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 7, 2007 9:43 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
It was more of a reply to your prior comment, but I thought I'd keep the thread linear.

by Jay on Dec 7, 2007 10:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I think, though, it is important to note that teams trade both contracts and potential.  Lee's contract is extremely favorable for a starting pitcher, Lee has a track record of success, and anyone can have a bad year when it starts with an injury.

Maybe all Cliff Lee needs is a fresh start.  He certainly has the stuff, when he can locate it, to be a #2/#3 starter.  That's why Cliff Lee has value on the trade market.  However, I think it's hard to know what the true market for Lee, or for that matter, any free agent or tradeable pitcher is until the Twins either fish or cut bait on Santana.  After that, the remaining chips start to fall into place.

"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Dec 6, 2007 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I think, though, it is important to note that teams trade both contracts and potential

Those young guys the Dodgers could trade still have better contracts.  

by nickjs21 on Dec 6, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I don't dispute that.  I guess I'm trying to make the case that it's not unreasonable to believe that Cliff Lee has a higher trade value than those who have given up on him want to give him credit for.  

I don't believe for a minute that the Dodgers would seriously talk to us about the Cliffhanger unless and until they are totally out of the running on Santana, Haren and/or Blanton, or that any other team really will either.  Cliff Lee, right now, is a better consolation prize than Kyle Lohse or Carlos Silva.

"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Dec 6, 2007 11:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I had posted a blurb in the Bonds for LF thread earlier.  I was thinking a package of Marte and Lee might be enticing?  Not sure what LA's thoughts on those two are, but it at least fits their advertised needs.  

by Pronk33 on Dec 6, 2007 11:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Yet a much smarter deal for the club than Torii Hunter's, to say nothing of Gary Matthews.  Similar to the Dodgers' pricey-but-short signing of another Brave a couple years ago, Rafael Furcal.

by Jay on Dec 6, 2007 2:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
"Dodgers looking to trade one of their prized youngsters for a front-line starter" Is this not what every team wants to do? Do you really think they will be able to get a Dan Haren type pitcher for either Ethier or Kemp, it would take both and a additional prospect?  
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 6, 2007 11:10 AM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
I know what you're saying, but assume Cliff Lee is a Dodger, and there's nobody in our organization named Laffey, Sowers, etc... do you trade Asdrubal or Gutierrez straightup for Cliff Lee?  Looking at the Dodgers current rotation, I don't think Lee fits in anywhere higher than the 4th spot in the rotation, and i think that's fairly generous.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 6, 2007 11:36 AM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Lee would put up good numbers in LA I bet. That's a pitcher's park right? Plus it's the NL.

by afh4 on Dec 6, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Yes I would, if we had no pitching prospects that were major league ready and had excess of prospects that matched up with Asdrubal or Gutierrez. And as for the 4th spot in the rotation, now days that is a 5-8 million dolar player.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 6, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Keep in mind it was the A's who sent Ethier to the Dodgers for Milton Bradley.  I seriously doubt he would merit Dan Haren (or that type of pitcher).

by Fredward on Dec 6, 2007 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
This just struck me, and there's no where good to put it, but I'll just throw it out here:

Jeremy Hermida?  

by nickjs21 on Dec 7, 2007 11:34 AM EST reply actions  

2B
seriously, why did shapiro make that barfield trade?  now they're getting another 2b?

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2007/12/07/carroll-to-indians-may-be-imminent-iguchi-or-eckstein-to-color ado/

by em3 on Dec 7, 2007 1:21 PM EST reply actions  

Re: 2B
I know man, I was like, "Shapiro I know you built one of those flux capacitor machines and routinely travel to the future to see how players end up turning out before you make trades and FA signings. Why the hell would you trade for Barfield when you knew he was going to suck in 2007? than trade for Carroll in 2008?"

Then I remembered that in this timeline he made the trade for Barfield, but when it catches up to the point when Shapiro travels back in time to choose not to make the trade (I'm assuming any day now), it will be like this timeline never existed and Barfield will still be in the NL. Damn, that Shapiro he's always one step ahead!

 

by hans on Dec 8, 2007 2:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, Shapiro is a time-master! :-)
Hello hans,

"Shapiro I know you built one of those flux capacitor machines and routinely travel to the future to see how players end up turning out before you make trades and FA signings. Why the hell would you trade for Barfield when you knew he was going to suck in 2007? than trade for Carroll in 2008?"

All we need to confirm that is to get a tricorder and scan Shapiro for chronometric particles - then we'll know he's been time-travelling.  :-)

"Then I remembered that in this timeline he made the trade for Barfield, but when it catches up to the point when Shapiro travels back in time to choose not to make the trade (I'm assuming any day now), it will be like this timeline never existed and Barfield will still be in the NL. Damn, that Shapiro he's always one step ahead!"

That, or he might have went back to around 2006 and is working out a deal that tops Boston's offer for Beckett, leading to us getting him and we winning our first WS in 59 years.  Or, maybe he went way back to around 1995 and convinced John Hart that he'll eventually trade Giles for Rincon and should just include Giles in that deal now for Randy Johnson.  Or maybe back to 1997 and convinced Hart that Jaret Wright's career will hit bumps in the road after 1997 and to just include him in the deal for Pedro Martinez.  Just imagine the possibilities - Shapiro is working in multiple time frames to bring us that elusive WS Championship!

It's nice to dream, isn't it?  :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2007 11:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Yes, Shapiro is a time-master! :-)
All he needs was the sports book to know a Florida team was going to win the world Series in 97.
Patience is a virtue but Champions don't need it. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Dec 10, 2007 11:18 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Live Free or Bay Hard: it's the top story on MLB.com again.

by Voltaire on Dec 11, 2007 3:04 PM EST reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
What do you mean this
Patience is a virtue but Champions don't need it. LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Dec 11, 2007 3:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
My GOD I GOT HALF WAY THROUGH AND BECAME TOO ENRAGED!!!! TO CONTINUE........"THEY COULD THROW IN LAFFEY OR MILLER TO HURRY IT UP?" WHAT THE @@)#$($( IS THAT (@(#$.....pheww ok. God I hate the Tribune.

by hans on Dec 11, 2007 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
Yeah I don't know, Huntington might have to think about that one.

by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2007 8:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Re: Bay Hard With a Vengeance
these comments are very interesting for my bucco ears.

if it makes anyone here feel any better, most of us pirates fans don't like the trade proposal either.

by illinest on Dec 12, 2007 12:47 AM EST reply actions  

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