Keith Foulke Retires

Re: Keith Foulke Retirement

http://www.wtam.com/pages/indians.html

by Fios on Feb 16, 2007 7:21 AM EST reply actions

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I'm leery to trust one-source stories but it is being reported ... ugh ... I really hope that is wrong

by Fios on Feb 16, 2007 7:22 AM EST reply actions

I had always hoped that Cabrera would emerge as the closer of the future. Tony Sipp also has closer potential. Like it or not it's time to audition some of the kids, hopefully Carmona won't be included.

by exileincincy on Feb 16, 2007 7:22 AM EST reply actions

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That's too bad about Foulke. His elbow must hurt a lot to walk away from $5M or more.

What about this addition of Cliff Politte? Did he get a minor-league deal? He had some good seasons, especially in 2005, but is there anything left in his tank?

by kov on Feb 16, 2007 8:40 AM EST reply actions

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Yes, a minor league deal and won't be ready to pitch for a while (ala Mulder) due to his surgery.

by exileincincy on Feb 16, 2007 9:03 AM EST up reply actions

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Politte did get a minor league contract. According to the reports I have seen, he is still rehabbing and will not pitch off a mound in game conditions until March. It is unlikely he will be ready to start the season even if his fastball is back.

Better to find out about Foulke now rather than later. Wonder if the Politte signing is just a coincidence? Think the Tribe knew it was coming?

IndianInkSlinger

by sdtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 9:08 AM EST up reply actions

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The Politte signing is inconsequential compared to Foulke retiring. I doubt there is any connection at all.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 9:10 AM EST up reply actions

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Hi Jay,

I think my post accurately describes the realtive level of consequence quite well, but thanks for the elaboration. As for connection, maybe, maybe not. :)

IndianInkSlinger

by sdtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 9:33 AM EST up reply actions

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Isn't the first day of spring training supposed to be filled with hope? This pretty much takes a lot of the wind out of the sails for me personally. It's too bad - but at least this allows Shapiro a bit of time to try to find a backup solution.

sigh

by mjmarble on Feb 16, 2007 9:02 AM EST reply actions

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Wind out of your sails. I never considered Foulke to be anything more then another arm to compete for some bullpen time. After watching him struggle to stay healthy for the last 2 years I don't think this should shock any one. Was it worth the gamble, maybe. But to seriously think he would return to 2004 levels was not only short sighted but foolish. In the end I do not think this will have that big of an impact on the season. Foulke has not shown much desire to play baseball since winning the World Series with the Boston Red Sox. I really never understood why he was considered a good pickup to begin with, based on his injuries and poor numbers. Just ask any Red Sox fan on what they think of Foulke after 2004.

Swing and a big miss

by 5tribetipies on Feb 16, 2007 1:01 PM EST up reply actions

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Why be so negative? It hasn't cost the tribe much. And the point of gathering a quantity of reliever is just this, that some wouldn't work out. It's a portfolio strategy that any entry level analyist would comprehend.

What was foolish about it. It was a one year contract, and Foulke had pitched really well at the end of the year. Who could get in his mind that he really didn't want to pitch again. I can't even decide what I want to do this weekend. Hey, stuff happens. Shapiro isn't stupid, although you must think he is. If he KNEW Foulke would retire, he wouldn't have spent the time signing him. But I guess you think he knew this and signed him anyway.

As for Red Sox fans, who cares! They should just be happy they won one and have a luxury tax system that cements the HUGE competitive advantage they share with the Yankees. They shouldn't be bitching. If we had that advantage, Manny would be in our right field, and we'd also have Thome and Sexton and Giles and Omar and Colon and we'd buy any spare parts from the marketplace. And we'd probably have a championship or two.

Hey Jay, Foulke could have been Tom Hanks 1991! See, I'm agreeing.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 16, 2007 1:26 PM EST up reply actions

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Agreed on all scores. There was nothing "foolish" about thinking he had a solid chance, if healthy, to be as good as he was a few years ago, when he was healthy.

Fact is, he wasn't healthy. And fact is, given that he wasn't healthy, we caught a lucky break that he retired now, rather than pitching through pain for a few weeks for his $5 million. Who knows if the Indians even had insured that -- or if any insurance company was willing to insure it.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 3:53 PM EST up reply actions

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This is a blow -- not debilitating, especially since he seems to be walking away from the money. This does little to hurt our overall depth, which is kind of immense, but Foulke uniquely had the potential to dominate.

Foulke's spot on the 25-man presumably is taken by Matt Miller, who likely would have started the season in Buffalo barring injury to a key reliever.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 9:06 AM EST reply actions

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ESPN is confirming this: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2767796

I suppose, as mjmarble said, the "silver lining" is that the team knows this now as opposed to three or four months down the road

by Fios on Feb 16, 2007 9:06 AM EST reply actions

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poop

by The Animal on Feb 16, 2007 9:08 AM EST reply actions

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Why do they refer to Foulke as an "Indian's reliever" when he hasn't relieved anything ? In fact, he just gave collective Tribe fan a large case of indigestion.

Is it too early in the morning to partake ? I guess it's 5 o'clock somewhere ... Damn !

by SpringTrainingFun on Feb 16, 2007 9:19 AM EST reply actions

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It's 4:20 here. Literally.

by mjmarble on Feb 16, 2007 9:21 AM EST up reply actions

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Actually, I think I shall go have a drink for all of you who still have a Friday to work.

by mjmarble on Feb 16, 2007 9:22 AM EST up reply actions

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As I recall, 4:20 isn't a time to grab a drink...

by Thommy on Feb 16, 2007 10:19 AM EST up reply actions

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It's just after midnight here. Perfect time for a drink.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 16, 2007 10:31 AM EST up reply actions

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That's why I kinda clarified what I was going out for. Normally, my personal preference is for a beer or vodka instead of the other things...

by mjmarble on Feb 16, 2007 10:59 AM EST up reply actions

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i think you meant "figuratively"

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 4:08 PM EST up reply actions

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Actually, I live in Bulgaria. It was 4:20 when I posted that.

by mjmarble on Feb 16, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions

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i misspoke. i meant that your implication was both literal and figurative. or so i assume.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions

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Heard it's a good time to buy real estate in Bulgaria. And drink too.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 16, 2007 11:03 PM EST up reply actions

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Yes. And Yes. :) Rakia is definitely an acquired taste.

by mjmarble on Feb 17, 2007 4:28 AM EST up reply actions

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Some thoughts:

1. I'm disappointed, but not entirely surprised. I remember a Jim Rome interview Foulke did in 2005 where he talked about how he really didn't enjoy playing baseball, and wasn't that competitive.

That was my primary concern with signing him, and I wouldn't at all be surprised if it's not an injury, but just a lack of desire that prompts his retirement.

On the bright side, we signed him late, so it's not like we really relied on the signing by abstaining from signing another closer (although we may have been more active in the Mike Gonzales deal).
This could turn out to be a Juan Gon- Grady scenario, where a young talent emerges, and we're glad not to have Foulke in the way, sucking up 5 mill.

by Alvaro Espinoza on Feb 16, 2007 9:37 AM EST reply actions

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You wonder if this nudges the door back open just a bit on a potential trade match with a team that has both a reliever and the slick-fielding back up shortstop.

I don't suppose that such a deal is ever likely to happen, but it seems a waste to go into 2007 with all of a sudden, at least like $7MM to play with (whatever Foulke was owed, plus I think we had extra cash)?

by cheech99 on Feb 16, 2007 9:42 AM EST reply actions

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It makes the non-acquisition of Mike Gonzalez hurt that much more. Schuerholz saw the opportunity and grabbed it.

by SpringTrainingFun on Feb 16, 2007 9:52 AM EST up reply actions

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Always harder to make that kind of deal in late February as opposed to late December. Not impossible though.

by cheech99 on Feb 16, 2007 9:53 AM EST up reply actions

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I don't think we ever had a serious conversation about Gonzalez. Just because we were willing to pay good cash for a reliever doesn't mean we were willing to give up significant talent and cash. Geez, they asked for Victor!

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 10:39 AM EST up reply actions

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I know the paper said they asked for Victor, but that doesn't mean that's what the Tribe would have had to give up. The Tribe can ask for Miguel Cabrera and/or Dontrelle Willis but it doesn't mean they'll get them.

I don't think anyone here would think that V-Mart is only equal with LaRoche. V-Mart is the better player so one can assume that the Tribe could have acquired Gonzalez for less.

by SpringTrainingFun on Feb 16, 2007 5:51 PM EST up reply actions

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I thought signing Foulke was one of the better moves that Shapiro made this winter. This is dissapointing.

Wait 'til next year... or something like that

by Brad D on Feb 16, 2007 9:56 AM EST reply actions

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I agree that Miller (if healthy) is the most likely to take his spot on the roster, but the loan bright spot is that we actually have another spring training battle to watch. I believe Cabrera and Davis are both out of options, so I didn't really think there was a battle. Now there's going to be a battle for the last spot with lots of people with options (Miller, Mastny, Perez, Mujica, and Lara).

Any thoughts on who takes his place on the 40-man? I'm not really sure how that works, do they need to fill right away, after he officially retires?

by TheCooler on Feb 16, 2007 10:01 AM EST reply actions

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my guess would be sipp.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 10:33 AM EST up reply actions

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No. Sipp isn't even on the roster.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 10:40 AM EST up reply actions

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to take foulke's place on the 40-man, i think was the question in the post i was answering.

not (quite) foolish enough consider him a realistic shot for closer, i like the plan to close him in beef for the year. i don't however, think shap considers jobo a reliable option, and i think wedgie would be open to being pleasantly surprised by some youngster's performance in spring training. if someone were to surprise out of spring training, eddy mu seems far, far more likely than sipp at this point.

i would love to see them give perez a look, but i know i'm dreaming on that one.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions

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They don't have to put anyone on the 40-man until he's needed on the 25-man, and probably won't. There are still 11 relievers on the 40-man, counting Perez but not Carmona, and only seven relief spots on the 25-man.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions

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i retract my guess.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions

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If Borowski doesn't seem rock solid by some cutoff point in the next month, does Shap trade prospects for a closer? Seems like this is "the year" for Shap, and I don't see him going into April with the closer situation up in the air.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 10:10 AM EST reply actions

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Which closer is available?

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Feb 16, 2007 10:17 AM EST up reply actions

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Cordero's name has been floated around as has Linebrink. :)

IndianInkSlinger

by sdtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 10:23 AM EST up reply actions

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Is Cordero available according to anyone but Jeff Passan? Didn't we have a mega-load of complaints about writers making up trade rumors in a recent diary about a report that suggested we were trading CC to the Mets?

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Feb 16, 2007 11:45 AM EST up reply actions

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Beats me. I read it on SI and Maller. Between them, they are batting below .100. :)

IndianInkSlinger

by sdtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 3:58 PM EST up reply actions

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Chad Cordero could be....Nats probably won't be needing many saves this year. He'll have a new contract by Tuesday, but a few teams(like Boston) need help too. I'd make a phone call to Washington just to see what it'd take...

by Chiefroy on Feb 16, 2007 10:25 AM EST up reply actions

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Turnbow is no longer closing but has a good track record, no injury.

I'm sure everybody will wait and see how Borowski and the rest of the pen looks over the next 3 weeks. I just can't see them not making a move outside the organization if it seems iffy by then.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 10:54 AM EST up reply actions

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Every time I've seen Turnbow pitch he's been lit up like a Christmas tree. Is there something I don't know?

by exileincincy on Feb 16, 2007 10:58 AM EST up reply actions

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I went and looked at Turnbow's history. Promising except the wheels totally fell off last year. What happened and can it be fixed?

by exileincincy on Feb 16, 2007 11:15 AM EST up reply actions

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please no turnbow. danny graves was enough.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 11:18 AM EST up reply actions

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If Shap decides he needs to make a trade, he will use much the same criteria he had when pursuing free agents for the same role: a successful history of closing and a valid chance that they would be able to do so again. Turnbow is one of the people on that list, no doubt.

I'm not sure Graves would be - he was a longshot reclamation project from the getgo. Turnbow was an all-star last year.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 12:51 PM EST up reply actions

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He also had a 6.87 ERA. All-star, schmall-star.

by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2007 1:32 PM EST up reply actions

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By the end of June, Turnbow had saved 23 games and had an era around 3. In '05, he saved 40 games with an era under 2 and a BAA under .200 I'd say he was a legitimate all-star at that point.

BTW, I'm not stuck on the guy - I'm just saying that a trade means a different list of players than the FA's we pursued this offseason, and I don't think there would be a high profile trade for an established closer - that would cost too much.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 2:57 PM EST up reply actions

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2005 was some kind of bizzare anomaly. the .250 babip doesn't fully explain it, but it helps. if you look at his 2003 and 2004 numbers at AAA, they're much closer to his 2006 than his 2005. his k/9 was high, but his whip was always above 1.5.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 2:01 PM EST up reply actions

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He was great in '05 and fine until July last year. I believe it was a mechanical issue, not an injury. He had closed 51 out of 55 from the '06 all-star game going back, with an era around 2.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 11:17 AM EST up reply actions

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I don't want Turnbow. We got guys with same or better talent and the same problems.

Waiting three weeks before making a move could mean no Chad Cordero available. Boston, Florida, Tampa, Cincy, and maybe the Cubs or Giants all are potential bidders for closer help. If Isringhausen or another closer goes down in ST, add another team to the mix.

If we think we need to make a trade, make the call now, before we're shut out.

by Chiefroy on Feb 16, 2007 11:35 AM EST up reply actions

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I just don't think Shap will make that decision now. He's much more likely to review his options and have a period to see just how effective the redundancy he spent his offseason building into the pen is likely to be.

He went through a lot of trouble to avoid trading valuable players. He'll go through some more before he decides he needs to.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 12:56 PM EST up reply actions

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You may be right. I'm not sure we HAVE to make a trade for a closer, but losing Foulke now is essentially the same as never signing him. I liked the Borowski signing, but preferred him as a partime closer....not THE guy. If JoBo has arm trouble or struggles in the AL away from that park in Fla....we're back where we were last year.

Granted, the young arms should perform better and a closer may emerge, but Shapiro obviously wanted more of a sure thing for the 9th and was hedging his bet. Hernandez probably should not be counted on as a possible closer, imo.

We plugged a hole by trading Kouz and we have chips to move if there is a fit with Washington.
I believe they'll get enough of a return from somebody that will tempt them into a trade. I wouldn't be willing to part with one of our starter prospects, but they may accept one of the young pen arms we have plus an OF like Franky/BenF/Snyder/Barton/Choo. Maybe they'd accept Asdrubal in a package, if we took Guzman's contract off their hands.

More likely to me however, they'll be able to get a young starter or SS from some other team.

by Chiefroy on Feb 16, 2007 1:56 PM EST up reply actions

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One option is to avoid the cost of trading for an established closer and target a setup guy in the mold of Calero or Howry to restore the depth at the back of the bullpen. JoeBo closes, the newguy takes the setup role, and the other roles remain the same as planned.

by mcrose on Feb 16, 2007 3:13 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

mlb.com:

"We no longer have a closer controversy," Shapiro said. "Joe Borowski's our closer."

It's possible that several clubs, most notably the Cardinals and Rangers, will have bullpen arms to deal this spring, but Shapiro said he is going to stand pat with what he has for now.

"We'll tell our scouts to pay closer attention and highlight guys we had conversations about this winter," Shapiro said. "But we would like to get a full look at our guys in camp. Those guys will get opportunities, and they'll get better looks."

by Chiefroy on Feb 16, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions

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Truthfully, I can't image Shapiro coming out and saying that they need to go out and trade for a guy. It would sound pretty desperate and reduce any leverage he has in making a deal.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions

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sorry should say "imagine" instead of image.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 4:21 PM EST up reply actions

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Somebody should emerge as we have good options (or at least numerous ones), so Shapiro doesn't have to do anything.

by Thommy on Feb 16, 2007 10:22 AM EST up reply actions

Wow.

This is surprising and disappointing. I had that rosy spring training outlook going, convinced that Foulke would regain his '05 form.

by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Feb 16, 2007 10:16 AM EST reply actions

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Well, it's not like losing Manny (or Albert or Thome), but it's a kick in the pants anyway. As others have said, perhaps this will allow a kid to emerge, and it's better that he's done now than in June.

Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.

by jdudas on Feb 16, 2007 10:18 AM EST reply actions

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I feel the same this morning the same way I did when LeCharles Bently blew his knee out in the first contact drill of the Browns' training camp.

by TheCooler on Feb 16, 2007 10:23 AM EST reply actions

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Yeah, that was my first thought too: Jeez, can't one Cleveland team make it through the first day of camp without losing a player? Although I guess the Cavs didn't lose anybody -- knock on wood.

But Foulke's retirement isn't nearly as debilitating as Bentley's was -- I really believe that Bentley's injury completely destroyed any chances the Browns had of being competitive last season, instantly. Whereas with Foulke it's more like Bob Hallen, a guy who was expected to contribute but not carry the team.

This sucks, but they'll be fine. I for one am looking forward to seeing Fernando Cabrera take over the closer spot come mid-June.

by mrich on Feb 16, 2007 10:32 AM EST up reply actions

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i'm with you. going into every sports season i'm optimistic, and i remember just where i was when i heard bentley was gone for the season and i'll remember where i was upon hearing foulke's decision to hang it up.
i'm discouraged because like others, I expected him to be the closer throughout the season, with borowski setting up.
but i'm also excited at the opportunity for a young guy to take advantage of a spot in the pen. then pen obviously was the maker in 2005 and the breaker in 2006. however more blame falls on the deadweights of last year, sauerbeck, graves, mota, etc., whereas some of the younger guys were impressive at times. I hope to see Sipp or Mujica really rise to the occasion and play a prominent part in the bullpen shuffle. I always hate seeing Wedge lose faith in a guy and only get him in a game every week and a half, for like 2 batters in the 6th.

by brad on Feb 16, 2007 10:34 AM EST up reply actions

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Crap.

I was just thinking about the Bently accident... I'm really not convinced we do have an internal solution that Shapiro is comfortable with (not including Borowski), otherwise, why sign Foulke to close? I don't want a repeat of last year because we're struggling to find someone, mid-season, who can throw strikes in the 9th inning. I'm just grateful that we didn't break camp and then have Foulke's arm fall off.

by Pronk33 on Feb 16, 2007 12:00 PM EST up reply actions

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Same here.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard "...and Victor Martinez grounds into a double play", i'd be rich.

by Rayman @ Let's Go Tribe! on Feb 16, 2007 1:37 PM EST up reply actions

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The primary concern, of course, is being competitive in '07 but the reality is that Foulke was not a long-term solution at closer even if he had been healthy and successful this year. And neither is Borowski. Rather than finding another injured, aging, broken down arm (e.g., Hermanson), I'm hoping that Cabrera gets a serious opportunity early on to assert himself. The possible silver lining to this set-back is that we're forced to find our future, long term closer within our own ranks.

by exileincincy on Feb 16, 2007 10:42 AM EST reply actions

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Witness the etiology of a trademark Shaprio move, made now permanent in his repertoire: The overstocking of semi-fungible commodities. He certainly trended this way recently, what with our 6 outfielders and 27 relief candidates, but this is just the kind of event that reinforces the behavior for life.

Mind you, this isn't a bad thing. Despite the popular backlash against the Nixon signing, I'll take all the (good) major league quality players we can stock.

by Thommy on Feb 16, 2007 10:45 AM EST reply actions

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I think this board has been waiting for some interesting news. We didn't want news this interesting.

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 11:09 AM EST reply actions

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Congratulations to the 11% who predicted that Foulke would be the underperformer. http://www.letsgotribe.com/story/2007/2/7/13557/55006

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 11:12 AM EST reply actions

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Heh, yeah, this pretty much settles that debate.

by Jeffrey R on Feb 16, 2007 12:42 PM EST up reply actions

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Foulke has a big lead. But the other guys are still in it. If someone were horrendously, stupendeously, Guillermo Mota like bad, that's worse than not being on the field.

by portlandtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 3:56 PM EST up reply actions

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Good point. Foulke will be neither good nor awful this season; he basically is at replacement level. And unlike other guys who will play at replacement level, he basically just cut us a check for $5 million.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 4:02 PM EST up reply actions

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While Shapiro can not be 100% blamed for this, there WERE reports that Foulke was on the verge of retiring if he couldn't get a "close to home" job. Add in the fact that he rejected the BoSox offer of around the same money the Indians gave, its kind of difficult for me to believe that Shapiro did not atleast THINK that when he decided to spend the money on Foulke rather then another close.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on Feb 16, 2007 11:41 AM EST reply actions

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man! this Foulke thing feels like Browns spill over.

we can't waste this year auditioning and developing a closer that may or may not emerge.

RE: potential trade match with a team that has both a reliever and the slick-fielding back up shortstop.

If someone like Cabrera does not step up BIG in spring training, a trade of one of the three near term big free agents (CC, Westbrook, Haf) that Shapiro decides is not signable could be the answer for closer, ss, etc.

this is the year to compete for the lead....man this is dissappointing; I want the warm spring training feeling back

by Dallas Tribe on Feb 16, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions

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well then foulke should have told him that directly. He's not a little kid. If a player tells me he plans on playing this year and signs a multi-million dollar contract to do so, I'm going to assume that he is going to play this year. I don't see how you expect Shapiro to assume otherwise. And if you do expect him to assume otherwise, then what should he have done. Not signed him and let someone else sign him? and then come out and say we don't think he's going to play this year even though he has said he will?

This sucks.
Yeah Cabrerra may get a shot, but I don't see how having everyone in the bullpen being pushed up to a higher role is going to be a good thing (like last year). I was real happy with the idea of Foulke and JoBo and Bentencourt being the 8th and 9th inning guys, with guys like Cabrera and Hernandez pitching the lessor leverage innings and dominated there.

We're still upgraded from last year, and we definetly have plenty of young arms in the minors to dip into, but if Borowski tanks, we could be in a tough situation. Like someone else said we don't have to make a trade to get someone else, but I know Shapiro will be more active in seeing what is out there.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 12:09 PM EST up reply actions

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And if you do expect him to assume otherwise, then what should he have done. Not signed him and let someone else sign him?

Remember when the Phillies almost signed Borowski this season, but let him go because of health concerns? It happens!

We're still upgraded from last year
I'm not sure I can agree with this statement any longer. Wickman is gone and in his place an inferior Borowski. Mota is gone, while he wasn't very good for the Tribe last season, he was expected to be relied on. The only TRUE upgrade is Fultz, but even that is questionable.
So stating that the bullpen is "upgraded" at this point, isn't really a true statement.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on Feb 16, 2007 12:43 PM EST up reply actions

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Bold prediction: JoeBo will be better then Wicky '06 and Wicky '07.

by JulioBernazard on Feb 16, 2007 12:53 PM EST up reply actions

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JoeBo has never been as good as Wickman's best. But Wickman was not that great in 2006 against AL hitting. So you might be right.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions

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with JoeBo we don't know, he had never had a save in the AL.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 16, 2007 4:25 PM EST up reply actions

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I totally agree. I don't think there is anyway that one can say that the bullpen now looks better than the bullpen did at the same time last year. As Brandini says, it is Wickman, Mota, and Sauerbeck (06) for Borowski, Hernandez, and Fultz (07). Looks like the opposite of an upgrade to me.

We are just left with the hope that relievers and bullpens are very unpredictable. Maybe they can luck into a good year.

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions

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Dude, did you watch Mota or Sauerbeck pitch last year?

by JulioBernazard on Feb 16, 2007 3:30 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Yeah, they were the suckiest sucks who ever sucked (and I'd include Wickman in with those two). But at this time last year we didn't know that. On paper, Mota and Sauerbeck going into last year looked just as good as Henrandez and Fults going into this year.

So all the bullpen really has going for it is regression to the mean (i.e. even random guys haveing random seasons won't likely be as bad as last year).

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

But at this time last year we didn't know that.

Yes, that is the key thing. Although there were concerns about Mota's arm and, in fairness, Sauerbeck was coming off a better 2005 than Fultz's 2006. But for one-out guys, it almost seems like we're better off with reverse indicators sometimes.

I'll take Borowski/Fultz and Wickman/Sauerbeck as a wash. The improved outlook is coming from these places.

Hernandez improves quality depth by one.
Betancourt and Cabrera might be the best positive-regression candidates in baseball.
Our deep pool of great relief prospects are a year older and better, and there are about ten of them.

There's no one impact move there, but the overall picture has definitely shifted.

Just for kicks, there's always that slim chance that J.D. will finally "find it."

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 4:07 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Jason Davis pretty closely fits the profile that Jose Mesa fit. The unfortunate part is that it extremely unlikely that he delivers the equivalent of Mesa's untouchable season. But as it's said in the movies, "It could happen."

by mickeyf on Feb 20, 2007 3:36 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I think we are talking about two seperate things. I find it hard to believe (but maybe not) that you would perfer to have Mota, Saurbeck, and Wickman instead of Borowski, Hernandez, and Fultz or that you would call them equals and be content with the former group, heading into "this season".

I understand your arguement that if we look at the players in the former group going into last season, that they are very close in comparison with the group we have going into this season. I get that. But, did Mota and Saurbeck regress to the mean or did they completely head south of the mean? Does that happen, yeah it does, but I'm not going to assume Hernandez and Fultz crash and burn in the same way.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 4:10 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I think we are all saying the same thing. I guess I can't understand some of the media guys saying the tribe looks better this year because they went out and improved their bullpen. It is more like the bullpen is improved because it couldn't have gotten worse. The bullpen also looks better in theory as Danny Graves is not on it.

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 4:15 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Because you are clearly forgetting what happened for the ENTIRE season, Mota looked solid during his stint with the Mets, so much so, that even a 50 game suspension did not stop the Mets from re-signing him.

That said, to predict that Hernandez, Fultz and Borowski have superior projected value going into 2007 then Wickman, Mota and Sauerback did going into 2006 is incorrect. We are talking 3 pitchers that are coming from the NL.

So I don't think anyone is suggesting that anyone "crash and burn", but I think the whole, "Shapiro fixxed the bullpen" is no longer true.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on Feb 16, 2007 5:01 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Are you talking about what we thought about Mota and Saurbeck before the season started last year? Because we replaced them with Fultz and Borowski and Hernandez for a reason. And that reason is that Mota and Saurbeck were bad pitchers last year, the guys we signed did better than those two did last year so how is that equal?

Wickman v. Borowski could be considered a wash, but Wickman pitched well last year (including his stint in Atl.). But yeah no improvement in the closer role, I'll give you that.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 3:59 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Simulpost. See above. But I disagree about Wickman's performance with the tribe. He was pretty awful with the tribe, and then was lights out with the Braves.

I really don't think the talent level in the current bullpen is that bad. Nor was the talent level bad last year. They just have to dump the negative karma somehow. Can Wedge and his minions do it?

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 4:05 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

The phillies didn't think Borowski was worth giving a two year deal to, they had doubts about his arm holding up.

If you ask Foulke if he is going to play this year and he tells you yes. Then you assume that he will play.

If your trainers/physicians tell you that Borowski's arm will not hold up beyond this year and he is asking for a two year deal, then you say no.

Borowski is not a trainer or physician, so you don't take his word on whether or not he's healthy enough to pitch two years. You have a trained physician do that.

If you have doubts about Foulke retiring before the season then you ask Foulke if he plans on retiring. Foulke is the expert on knowing whether or not he is going to retire.

Your comparison does not equate.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 4:04 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

For what it's worth, Borowski's old team said he was perfectly healthy -- yes, even after he became a free agent. And the Indians med staff has a much better rep than the Phillies.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 4:08 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

no arguement here.

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 4:12 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

My opinion was while we did struggle with closing games last year after Wickman was dealt, our major problems last year were in the 6th/7th innings not the 8th/9th. Cabrera, Betancourt, Sauerbeck all tanked last season in those roles.

With JoeBo in the 9th, this moves either Betancourt, Hernandez, or Cabrera back to the 8th inning spot. Which leaves two of those three for the 7th along with Fultz.

I believe both Cabrera and Betancourt will be closer to their 2005 performance than the 2006 ones, and Hernandez will have a steadying influence in the 8th. JoeBo can close, he may not be Rivera, but he can get the job done (at least consistently enough to hold off Betancourt/Cabrera as our closer til next year).

by talonk on Feb 16, 2007 1:03 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

The point is...Entering the 2007 season this bullpen is not improved from what it was entering the 2006 season. That is not to say that the 2007 bullpen will perform worse then the 2006 version, however, it is suggesting that the "big issue" entering the offseason was to improve the bullpen, I suppose you can argue it is improved from the pen on the last day of the season, but entering the season, I'm not sold.
Consider that the bullpen was not altogether THAT bad, given they were right in the middle of the pack for ERA during innings 7+.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on Feb 16, 2007 5:06 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

JoeBo will be fine. This is why Shap did what he did with the bullpen this offseason.

by JulioBernazard on Feb 16, 2007 11:48 AM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Boy, first Wickman implies he IS retiring, then DOESN'T ...

by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2007 12:41 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

We should be happy he at least told us now instead of 2 weeks before the season started or after he won the closer's job. Or after we had waivered somebody we wanted otherwise to keep. I would have liked him around too, but we have to move on now. Water under the bridge.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 16, 2007 1:38 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

"...Or after we had waivered somebody we wanted otherwise to keep..."

Like Guthrie?

by Brick. on Feb 16, 2007 1:58 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Yeah, like Guthrie. Ugh.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 16, 2007 2:03 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

thank god we didn't lose rouse.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 2:19 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

thank god we didn't lose rouse.

Best post in this thread.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 4:00 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it true the tribe did not lose a draft pick because of this? But Boston still gained a supplemental pick?

by oxforddave on Feb 16, 2007 4:17 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

The Tribe did not lose a draft pick and Boston may not keep its supplemental pick because he retired before pitching. New agreement is difficult to understand on this issue, at least to me, but that's what it looks like. :)

IndianInkSlinger

by sdtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 4:23 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

My guess is that they get to keep their pick, especially if we control Foulke's rights for the season.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 6:21 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Yeah, the 2nd best middle infielder in the farm system. Good comment! :)

IndianInkSlinger

by sdtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 4:19 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

your signature emoticon takes some of the sting out of your sarcasm.

by emil minty on Feb 16, 2007 4:54 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

this may not be the place for the discussion, but i'm actually pulling for rouse to do well here. luna does nothing for me -- i forget who said last year that the indians were the only team in baseball whose utility infielder was the worst middle infielder on the roster -- and [ironic prefix]'in joe inglett just isn't a shortstop. if rouse can do play at short while giving us a LH-batting infielder, i say he gets the nod.

by fleerdon on Feb 16, 2007 6:14 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

i can't wait till foulke 'comes back' to pitch for someone else later this year now that he's gotten out of his contract. you heard it here first.

by Brick. on Feb 16, 2007 2:25 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

$50 says he doesn't come back.

by JulioBernazard on Feb 16, 2007 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I was joking - though I can't say I would be shocked if he pitched again next year.

by Brick. on Feb 16, 2007 2:38 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I think if he's on "voluntary retired" status, he can't come back in the same year and pitch for anyone else. I'm pretty sure that under the rules the Indians retain rights for a period of time.

by exileincincy on Feb 16, 2007 2:56 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

It's very stange: he pitched last year, he went through the whole free agent process, presumably he worked himself out in the winter, comes to spring training throws a few pitches, feels pain in his elbow, then retires? No rehab, no trainers, nothing? Ad if he wanted to stick it to the club for the money, he could have gone on the DL.

by portlandtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 3:49 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Well...umm...weird.

I don't know what to think. My gut is to package Choo and Garko and get the best option available. My second thought is there not really anyone available and Choo/Garko aren't nearly as attractive as I'd like to believe.

Ugh. Go Politte!

Actually, Go FCab!

by afh4 on Feb 16, 2007 3:08 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I think this is actually good. He was honest with the club and now they can move on and not pay that contract (I dont think). They will be able to have more competition and hopefully find a good bullpen replacement.

This is a hell of a lot better than him starting the season as a closer then ending up on the 60 day DL and not playing for the rest of the year. Or, better yet, getting hurt in July or August in a playoff race.

by Tribe Alive on Feb 16, 2007 3:31 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I'm mad at the situation, but we still have time to get this ironed out before April. Would you have rather him tried through spring and retired a month form now? I say we have enough guys with closer experience and enough relivers get it done this year, assuming Hernandez and Bowrowski doesn't get him for a significant amount of time.
No trades are necessary unless one of those 2 get hurt this spring.

Borowski CP
Hernandez
Fultz
Betancourt
JDavis
Cabrera
Miller

Sipp
Mujica
Mastny
Carmona
Pollite

Am I missing something? What's the problem? Now we have a 40 spot for our 3rd catcher if need be.

Cory Snyder is my hero!!!

by crackaddictwhit @ Let's Go Tribe! on Feb 16, 2007 3:38 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I'll bet Fultz is off the team by July and replaced by Sipp.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 16, 2007 4:34 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Could happen.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 6:21 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Why does everyone assume we need to trade for someone? Just bump everyone up a spot, fill in the holes with AAA's undoubtedly best bullpen, and when/if JoBo goes down in June, let whoever has stepped up take over. My money says Fernando's closing by the All-Star game, and he'll keep the job for the rest of the year.

by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2007 3:39 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

could that work? yeah, but it sounds too much like what happened last year (people in roles they weren't prepared for).

Here's another problem,

Shapiro had stated that neither Borowski nor Foulke would be relied on for more than a two games in a row, that one may take over as the primary closer, but because of there injury history, the second guy would contribute to the closing duties as well. Now that guy is probably going to be Bentencourt, who didn't exactly dazzle as a set up guy last year (even though he was are best reliever, Carmona's pre-closer stint aside).

by hans on Feb 16, 2007 4:18 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I would think it would be Hernandez, not Betancourt.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Feb 16, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

To start the season, yes. Betancourt has to earn his way back to the back of the pen.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 6:22 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

This is what happens when the Tribe brass shops for bullpen help at Big!Lots. F-Yea!!!

Good thing we got Cliff Politte and his 8.70 ERA for "insurance" purposes.

www.kidcleveland.blogspot.com

by Kid Cleveland on Feb 16, 2007 4:20 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

You guys still excited about FoxSports.com's #2 ranking for the Tribe????

www.kidcleveland.blogspot.com

by Kid Cleveland on Feb 16, 2007 4:20 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Yes, you're right! Our season was hanging on one of our co-closers! DAMMIT! That's exactly what put is #2!

by nickjs21 on Feb 16, 2007 4:38 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Pfft...please. That was in reference to everyone getting giddy all over again. Remember last year when ESPN had the Tribe #1 preseason? I do. The bullpen was at fault last year and adding a handfull of injury riddled question marks shouldn't have anybody too confident this year.

Unless Borowski suprises and plays great this is a 3/4 place team.

www.kidcleveland.blogspot.com

by Kid Cleveland on Feb 16, 2007 4:59 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Hey guys!! Check out my website!!

by chodson28 on Feb 16, 2007 5:40 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I checked it out. Its not that bad, but he's pretty cynical on that blog. Which is pretty consistent with his posts. Go figure huh?

You might run like Hayes, but you hit like s&%t.

by Dinky Kong on Feb 16, 2007 7:19 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

three-fourths place? that's better than first, right?

by fleerdon on Feb 16, 2007 6:17 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Unless Borowski suprises and plays great this is a 3/4 place team.

The Indians could easily win the division with only an adequate closer, not a great one.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 6:24 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

You really think so??? What about Minnesota? Sure, Lirano is down, but Garza should be better. At least they got Nathan closing. Something we lack. Same for Detroit's pitching. I'm not writing off the Tribe yet, but its a wait and see approach for me.

You might run like Hayes, but you hit like s&%t.

by Dinky Kong on Feb 16, 2007 7:18 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

First, the line is: "You might run like Mays ..." As in "You, Willie Mays Hayes, might run like Willie MAYS, the legendary player you're named after, but you hit ..."

Second, I think we could easily win the division, not necessarily that we will win it easily.

I think Minnesota is full of holes and had their big everyone's-career-year season in 2006. That was the top of the mountain for them -- Mauer and Morneau will still be stars, but the other guys were in over their heads.

I want you to think about the whining we see around here about Paul Byrd and our corner OF platoons. And then think about the fact that the Twins will be starting Rondell White, Carlos Silva, Ramon Ortiz and Sidney Ponson as key pieces of their roster. Not as the 12th pitcher (Graves), not as the 13th position player ( Hollandsworth). As starters in the rotation and the lineup.

And you tell me: What about Minnesota? Sure, they got a few stars. So do we.

by Jay on Feb 16, 2007 9:26 PM EST up reply actions

Run like "Hayes"

Sorry but I think he is right with the "Run like Hayes" reference. I think Lou Brown is referring to "Bob Hayes", former World Record Holder in the 100 meter dash and Dallas Cowboy.

by TribeLoverInNewYork on Feb 17, 2007 9:29 AM EST up reply actions

Re: Run like "Hayes"

From uselessmoviequotes.com:

Willie Mays Hayes, here. Play like Mays, and I run like Hayes.

by TribeLoverInNewYork on Feb 17, 2007 9:32 AM EST up reply actions

Re: Run like "Hayes"

Ah, there is a discrepancy here. Wikiquotes has the Mays version, but imdb backs up your version.

by Jay on Feb 17, 2007 4:27 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Run like "Hayes"

Can we get a ruling on this? Surely someone has the movie?

by dgcambridge on Feb 17, 2007 10:57 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Run like "Hayes"

Dinky's line comes at the scene after Willie puts on his "hitting display" in the batting cage in spring training.

by Kid Cleveland on Feb 20, 2007 2:39 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Unfortunately, mere adequacy can sometimes be difficult to achieve. If Borowski is healthy and effective, the bullpen situation moves a long way toward being settled. But if he's not healthy or not effective, a potentially great season is at risk.

Shapiro has shown real talent for prudent maneuvering (low risk signings, incremental improvements), but he may be required to take a different tack this time around. Some of our cherished prospects may have to be sacrificed to assure bullpen adequacy.

This team is too good and the AL Central too competitive to simply hope for the best. We know Kenny Williams will roll the dice, and Dave D. has already traded for Sheffield. What will Shapiro do?

by Rochester on Feb 17, 2007 7:44 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

It is obviously beneficial that Foulke did this now rather than later. And we cannot legitimately say that this is a blow to the team given that he has in fact never been a part of it...it was all pure speculation from the start.
I think the red herring here is how the highly respected medical staff / numbers crunchers / makeup artists went through the process with Foulke and gave a $5 million "thumbs up" only to have him not even report to spring training.
If he was clearly unable to pitch, there should have been some sign of this. It doesn't sound like he has just "had enough". The guy was physically incapable, and they still handed him $5 mil.
I think this exposes some chinks in the proverbial armor of the Indians analytic strategy.

by DocNo on Feb 16, 2007 7:04 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

That's what I was thinking too, DocNo. If this is anything other than Foulke just 100% not wanting to play any more, then our medical staff missed something. Which is not reassuring.

The bright side, like everyone says, is we're not on the hook for the money and there is still time to pursue another option before the season, if Shapiro wants to do so. Personally I am still a fan of trading for Chad Cordero (if only so we could have a "Chief" on the Indians....man, the headlines just write themselves in that case).

by Jackdaw on Feb 16, 2007 8:07 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Without knowing the guys, I think he was low on "hunger quotient" to begin with, felt some more twinges in the arm area, and decided he didn't want to rehab, travel, etc. any more.

by JulioBernazard on Feb 16, 2007 8:37 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I wonder if it has to do with "performance enhancers?" No, not the little blue kind. It's a shame that this casts a cloud.

by portlandtribefan on Feb 16, 2007 7:24 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I'm glad he retired now rather than falter early in the season when everyone's roles have been set. That being said, my gut says Shapiro won't start the season with JoBo as our only closer. Reading between the lines it seems to me that Shapiro doesn't think JoBo's arm can handle a closer's normal workload. I also don't think he wants to start the season with an untested second closer (I feel the same way). I'm going way out on a limb here but don't be surprised to see Wickman back in an Indian's uniform before the start of the season.

(You are now free to slap me up side the head) :)

by LeftyCatcher on Feb 16, 2007 7:32 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Are you thinking we'll make a deal with Atlanta to bring him back?

by talonk on Feb 19, 2007 12:05 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Trading Wickman at the start of the season would not be allowed under the CBA. I think June 15 is the date after which new signings can be traded.

by Jay on Feb 20, 2007 11:26 AM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

Technically, Wickman was never a free agent. He signed his extension before the end of the season.

by Ryan on Feb 20, 2007 12:17 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I'm not sure, but I believe the rule applies anyway. The only time it doesn't apply is for players still under reserve, i.e., who have never been eligible for free agency. In those cases, the player's contract is only governing his salary, not his control, since the team had those years under control anyway.

by Jay on Feb 21, 2007 12:18 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

steel cage match?

by emil minty on Feb 21, 2007 1:39 PM EST up reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

We just need Nixon to get hurt chasing a fly ball and we will be rid of the former (veteran) Red Sox.

Swing and a big miss

by 5tribetipies on Feb 16, 2007 11:49 PM EST reply actions

Re: Keith Foulke Retires

I think the cold winter is depressing a lot of people's thoughts. Why so negative? Hope springs eternal. I think the Indians are in the best shape(CC pun notwithstanding) of any Cleveland franchise. Are they the best franchise in baseball? Obviously not. Why did we sign so many relievers? Foulke answers the question already. Why did we sign so many OF's? Because we spend in quantity since quality is not available or too expensive. Give it time. Its the middle of February. The roster will work its self out. We lost Guthrie in the time being, so? The guy was a stiff!!! Having him permanently out of the picture is a good not a bad thing. I can honestly can say that I would rather have Sikorski or Rouse, seriously. As for the bullpen, its all about health and infield defense. Then it will preform more like 2005.

Cory Snyder is my hero!!!

by crackaddictwhit @ Let's Go Tribe! on Feb 17, 2007 7:22 AM EST reply actions

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