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Sour on Sowers?

First - Keith Law in a recent chat...

"I've never been a big fan. Saw him on the Cape in '03 ... no real out pitch, stuff is all fringe-average ... plus command/control, which gets him to the big leagues, but he's a fifth starter, maybe a four if everything works out."

Second - PECOTA - Breakout Rate (0%), Improve Rate (7%), Collapse Rate (75%)

With Jeremy, it's fewer than average strikeouts, walks, homeruns, and hits allowed.  I wonder how many guys can claim that (small sample size caveat).  

What do we think?

0 recs  |  Comment 38 comments

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Re: Sour on Sowers?
People can project all they wish, it will be numbers that tell the story. This makes me think of all those fire ballers that throw in the mid-high nineties that scouts get all excited about, but get hammered when they get to the Bigs. Jaime Moyer seems to have gotten by fairly well with location. Also Chien-Ming Wang, he seems to do well also.

I guess they are paid to predict - so lets just hope they are wrong.

by vaugheyj on Feb 2, 2007 4:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Sowers reminds me a lot of Jimmy Key, another Southern lefty who had a very solid MLB career despite a major league career K/9 of 5.34.

by mkwng on Feb 2, 2007 4:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Remember the old "This is Sportscenter" parody campaign where they pantomined the kid/sports anchor that came out too soon?

Jimmy Key?  What is he, 45?  I could hit him!  

by cheech99 on Feb 2, 2007 4:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Yes.  Great memory.  That was one of many that were hilarious.

by Spidey on Feb 2, 2007 4:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
The one I always remember is Grant Hill as a piano player, cheering up Dan Patrick.  Classic.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Feb 2, 2007 10:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
when Dan threw a dollar in Grant's tip jar....

by portlandtribefan on Feb 3, 2007 2:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
That is a great one.  I've never liked Clemens, but for some reason I love the one with him hogging the photocopier, making "K" signs, and the perfect tag line:  "I'm gonna be awhile."

by Jay on Feb 3, 2007 6:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I always enjoyed the one where an anchor (I think it was Van Pelt or Anderson) is trying to explain to Andriy Shevchenko the way that football and soccer are named.
Wait 'til next year... or something like that

by fwembt on Feb 3, 2007 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Charley, come on out and get yer whuppin'!  

Charley...come on out!  

Steiner!

by Chiefroy on Feb 4, 2007 7:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Yeah, that was definitely a classic.

by Jay on Feb 4, 2007 10:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I'm of the same mind I've always been with Jeremy-he seems completely unsustainable. However, I thought that all last year, before the season, before he came up, after he came up, etc. I kept waiting for him to implode.

At this point, I think the only course of action is to cross collective fingers and hope we've stumbled on some weird exception.

The Moyer comparison is fun and all but not really that valid. Moyer's K rate has hovered around 5 most of his career. Jeremy's was 3.57 last year and that seemed pretty in line with what could be expected over a full season.

by afh4 on Feb 2, 2007 4:20 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Keep in mind though that his K rate could rebound
a bit.

Hello afh4,

I presume your last sentence about expecting around a 3.57 K/9 IP rate was based on his AAA K rate of 4.99?

Keep in mind that Sowers' K rates at High-A and AA were 9.46 and 7.65 respectively.  I don't think you could have predicted Sowers' AAA K rate to drop all the way down to 4.99 (I would have thought 6-6.5 K/9 IP myself,) so just using that 4.99 AAA K rate to determine how high his K rate at the ML level might lead to an erroneous conclusion that 3.5 K/9 IP is ALL we can expect from Sowers.  

It's been mentioned that it is POSSIBLE that Sowers' K rate could increase a bit, up to perhaps that 5 K/9 IP rate that Moyer has hovered at, so at this point, it's not out of the realm of possibility for Sowers to emulate Moyer, both in terms of his ML success and his K rate.  Only time will tell, but the possibility of Sowers emulating Moyer's success and K rate isn't THAT far-fetched - it's too early to tell how much Sowers will emulate Moyer - maybe a little, maybe a lot.  Only time will tell.    

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Feb 2, 2007 6:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Keep in mind though that his K rate could rebo
His A/AA stats are not of a lot of interest to me. I understand why the Indians wanted to run him through the system and I think it was a good idea. However, it's also pretty obvious that he was, upon drafting, much, much better than both of those levels. Once he hit a level where he more or less belonged, AAA, his K rates went down and then kept going down.

I think it's reasonable that where his K rate was at last year is more or less about right. There was so much talk about him pitching to contact, keeping hitters off-balance etc. The Indians seem to believe  in his ability to do this and I hope they're right.

People want to think Sowers is like Moyer or Buehrle because it's comforting-see, guys like this can succeed! My point is not that Sowers can't succeed but that it's probably going to be while pitching like he did last year between AAA and the majors, not by adding K's. That's my thinking and I'm not saying it's right. It's just my thinking.

by afh4 on Feb 3, 2007 12:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can understand your point, but...
Hello afh4,

I understand your concerns about Sowers and the fact that maybe he was just so much above High-A and AA, but at the same time, as someone else mentioned, he did go through several levels of baseball in a short time frame, so perhaps he didn't adjust as quickly to AAA in terms of getting a few more strikeouts as he did at High-A or AA.  Likewise also at the ML level.

It's possible Sowers' K rate may never rise, but I think with some time to settle in at the ML level, it's not impossible for his K rate to tick up a bit, maybe be around where Moyer's career K rate is (5 K/9 IP.)

Either way, whether his K rate rises a bit or stays roughly where it's at, the main point is getting people out, and while a higher K rate would make things easier for Jeremy, he did show last year that he didn't have to strike guys out to get them out.  Whether he can continue that or not, only time will tell.  Hopefully, he'll continue in the same way he did last year.  One thing that seems to be in his favor is his ability to adjust and adapt, thinking along with the hitter and keeping him off-balance - hopefully, he'll continue to display that skill, since it's very unlikely he'll ever become a high K guy.

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Feb 3, 2007 2:07 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Keep in mind though that his K rate could rebo
I gotta agree with indiansfan.  Sowers could make Triple-A hitters miss bats but that doesn't mean he ever fully adjusted to that level.  I think there's a good chance that his K rates will rise a bit once he adjusts to the majors, but now we're talking about 2008.

Let's not forget also, we're talking about a very, very smart and perceptive pitcher here.

by Jay on Feb 3, 2007 6:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
"...but he's a fifth starter, maybe a four..."

Um, isn't that all the indians are expecting him to be?  I don't see the problem here.

by Brick. on Feb 2, 2007 4:50 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Logically, I can't say I disagree.  And let's frame this - Sowers had a 3.57 ERA last year.  Over a full season, that's somewhere in the 5th-10th best starter in the AL.  I think we'd agree he's not that good, and that a breakout rate of 0% (that he would perform 20% better than he has) or a collapase rate of 75% (he's likely to decrease performance by more than 20%) is in line with what he likely will do.  

At the same time, they peg him for a 4.7 ERA next year - and I think that's a bit high to forecast for a guy with a 2.0 minor league ERA.  Anyway, he's an oddball, and the truth likely lies somewhere inbetween, IMHO. I love oddball players.

Top 3 comps - Tom Glavine, Claude Osteen, and Mark Buehrle.  I'll take that.  Heck, thinking about it, I though Buehrle was going to implode for the longest time and he never did (save for too much work the previous 4 years which caused a lousy '06).

by Thommy on Feb 2, 2007 5:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I'm glad you took the time to remind me that collapse means (decrease performance by 20% or more).  I guess it's still a positive if his performance is around a Equivalized ERA of 4.30 or so (close to exactly 20% worse); I'm just concerned how much worse of a "collapse" could be indicated here.

by cheech99 on Feb 2, 2007 5:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
even if he does 'collapse' horribly, just swap him out for Carmona.

by Brick. on Feb 2, 2007 5:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
he's a lefty, so i like his chances.

by Brick. on Feb 2, 2007 5:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Pardon the Interuption, but...the guy reminds me of Eddie Lopat.  Couldn't thow an egg and break it, but got everyone out somehow.  If memory serves me, and at this point it doesn't always, he pitched for the White Sox and the Yankees.  With the Yankees he averaged 15 wins a year.   Sneaky fast but with great control.

Also there was Art Fowler who pitched for the A's. The Philadelphia A's in the '40's.  He was so slow that one night Joe Gordon was so upset with him that while at bat, stuck out his bare hand, caught the ball and rifled it back at him twice as fast as it was coming in.  By the time everyone realized what had happend and stopped laughing Gordon was gone.

PS Jack Graney almost had a heart attack.  Just a little history for you youngins.

by Cactus Jack on Feb 2, 2007 5:46 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I'm rooting for Jeremy but I can't help but remember that we passed on Homer Bailey in order to draft him because we knew he'd be in the majors first.

by exileincincy on Feb 2, 2007 6:28 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Bailey's ceiling is higher, BUT he's less of a...
sure thing.

Hello exileincincy,

While I agree that Bailey's ceiling is considerably higher than Sowers', that doesn't guarantee he's a sure-fire ace pitching prospect.  Personally, I think he's behind Hughes, Miller, and Gallardo - the reason why is because his BB/9 IP was 3.71 at AA, plus the fact that he does not have good command of his offspeed stuff (he's also behind the other three in this regard.)

Even if he can dial the fastball up to 99 MPH, that won't be enough against MLers if he can't throw the fastball enough over the plate AND he can't get his offspeed stuff over.  We seen what happened with CC, and even Colon and Wright, when they couldn't get their offspeed stuff over on a consistent basis - they each didn't dominate, and pretty much, each of them got hammered.  

So, at this point, Bailey is FAR from a sure thing.  Would I have liked to have had Bailey in the Indians' system?  Of course I would have, but let's not assume Bailey is an absolute sure thing at this point - many other pitching prospects with similar profiles have done very well in the Minors, but then falter at the ML level and not live up to the expectations that were placed on them.  While Bailey has the higher ceiling, Sowers IS more of a sure thing, and is already here.  Bailey still has to handle AAA and still has to get his command in order, neither of which are a guarantee.

Just something to consider and realize that just because the Indians would have had Bailey in the system doesn't guarantee they'd be better off - Bailey still has considerable more work to do to be that sure-fire ace, arguably more than Adam Miller has to do, since Miller has already demonstrated a great BB rate at AA (nearly as good as Hughes) and has shown great command of his offspeed stuff, which includes his devastating slider.  

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Feb 2, 2007 6:49 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bailey's ceiling is higher
Understood. I like Sowers and if he truns into Glavine the draft decision will be vindicated. But if Bailey turns into Nolan Ryan we'll always wonder "what if". That's the nature of the beast, of course. My concerns run deeper than the Sowers over Bailey decision (which I'm not upset about) and if I'm wrong, somebody please correct me.

The FO seems to prefer safe picks (high probability of success but low ceilings) over risky picks (less predictable but much higher ceiling). I'd rather see more of a mix.

If we lose Sabathia to free agency and retain Westbrook only Miller can prevent our rotation from being composed exclusively of "pitch-to-contact" guys. Am I the onle one worried about this? I think every rotation needs a mixture of power arms and finesse guys.

Maybe I'm just in a glass half empty mood today. Spring training usually cures that.

by exileincincy on Feb 3, 2007 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Bailey's ceiling is higher
I think the "pitch-to-contact" nature of our rotation is the single biggest concern of this team going into 2007 (the infield defense is a by-product, but it starts with the rotation).

I could be wrong, but I think it was Roto Authority (don't know how strong the projection system) that projected us with the lowest K/9 of any AL rotation (but I think they also projected us with the lowest BB/9).

I think that's why you're seeing Blake as the odds on favorite first-baseman against right-handed starters; moreso than any reason like "Garko still hasn't completely obliterated AAA pitching".  

Sabathia is a true ace, but beyond that our pitchers all have those different quirky advantages which mask their relatively low K-rate:

*Westbrook and his ground balls
*Sowers and his ability to not let the opposition square the bat to ball
*Byrd and the extreme low walk rate (not as much though in 06)
*Lee has a slightly better K-rate, but can't seem to get past 6 innings.  

That's why I think Carmona breaks through at some point into the rotation; likely in the first half of the season.  

by cheech99 on Feb 3, 2007 11:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I understand the concern, exileincincy!
Hello exileincincy and cheech99,

exileincincy - I understand that concern and share it - that's why I'm hopeful the Indians can keep Sabathia, but have doubts they will be able to - that's why I'm very open to trading him if we can get another top pitching prospect, like a Philip Hughes - add another power arm to the rotation, along with Miller.

Like you said, Miller is the only one right now who could fill the hole left by Sabathia if he is traded away or leaves as a FA; the other pitchers in the current rotation, like Lee and Sowers, can help to compensate for Sabathia's loss by being consistent, but it's highly unlikely these two will ever be a #1 pitcher.  Right now in the farm system, only Miller could adequately fill that hole (Lofgren has an outside chance, but is probably more of a #2-#3, and Carmona's best case is probably that of a #2-#3, especially if he continues to improve the K rate, but he's not likely a #1 either.)

I think the Indians have gone with "safer, low-ceiling" picks the last few years for two main reasons:

  1. Their getting burned by the 2001 Draft - they took HS pitchers with solid to high ceilings like Denham, Dittler, Foley, Martin, etc. - so far, none of them have panned out, and of the four, only Martin really seems to have a real shot of breaking through to the Majors, and he might have had the lowest ceiling of the four, being that he has the lowest velocity (albeit the best command, but still, the least likely to be a frontline starter - he's probably more likely a #3 unless he hits the low- to mid-90s consistently with his fastball, which isn't likely at this point.)  

  2. After getting Adam Miller in the first round supplemental in the 2003 Draft, the Indians probably feel they can get frontline starters anywhere in the draft, not necessarily in the first round, so unless they're overwhelmed with a HS "high-risk, high-reward" pitcher in that first round, it's not likely they're going to take him.  As I recall, I think Bailey had some questions about his makeup, specifically making comments about where "baseball was just a job and didn't mean everything to him."  That might have made the Indians question his dedication and work ethic just a bit, which was enough to make them look more at Sowers and consider taking him over Bailey.  

cheech99 - I agree with you that I think Carmona will break through into the rotation at some point in 2007 - probably either for Byrd, Sowers, or Westbrook (if he's traded, which is looking more and more unlikely, since the chances of signing him sound more realistic than signing C.C.)  Carmona continues to do well as a starter down in the Dominican, and even more encouraging, his K rate remains above 1, which provides more evidence that his higher K rate from 2006 is for real and not a fluke, and on top of that, is being sustained while in a starting role, not just in a relief role where he didn't have to pace himself.  In my opinion, very encouraging - hopefully, he'll continue to make progress and turn into a very solid starter, possibly a #3 or even a #2 pitcher, in time.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Feb 4, 2007 3:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I'm not sure that one can already characterize Sowers as bringing nothing to the mound but a good BB/9 rate. In his first exposure to prof. ball (at age 22) he split 150 innings at high-A and AA, posting respectively:
A+: 9.46 K/9, 2.78 ERA, 1.11 WHIP
AA: 7.65 K/9, 2.08 ERA, 1.01 WHIP
giving up 13 long balls in 150 innings.
First exposure to AAA looked like this:
100 IP, 4.99 K/9, 1.39 ERA, 1.10 WHIP, 1 HR
then MLB:
88 IP, 3.6 K/9, 3.57 ERA, 1.19 WHIP, 10 HR

So yes, his K/9 trends downward as he rises through the system, but it may well have something to do with moving 4 levels in the space of about 20 months. And the jump in HRs from AAA (1/100 IP) to MLB (10/88 IP) may well be chalked up to rookie mistakes. His other numbers consistently outstanding.
A good comparison right now is Cliff Lee, who may have been a bit disappointing this year (4.46 ERA,  1.42 WHIP, 5.7 K/9), but who was coming off a Cy-Young-vote-receiving 2005 season going 18-5, 3.79 ERA, 1.22 WHIP, 6.4 K/9.

Looking back, Lee's strikeout rate has always been better than Sowers', but not dramatically. He posted 8 K/9 at AA/AAA, 8.67 at AAA, but before 2005 his K/BB rate was about an even 2/1, and Sowers posted superior ERA/WHIP.

Also: guys like Moyer and Radke have built pretty solid careers with K/9s in the mid-5 range, ERAs around 4.25 and WHIPs at about 1.25-1.30.

One cannot tell anything just from number crunching, but Sowers could well increase his K/9 from 2006, and might be capable of sustaining a 3.5 - 4 ERA with low WHIP and low HRs. In other words, a quality # 3-4 starter for years to come.

by DocNo on Feb 2, 2007 7:35 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
sorry to comment on my own comment, but I'm just going by the numbers: Sowers dominated AAA. With the Tribe, 3 of his first 4 games in the Majors were rough, and then he pitched back-2-back complete game shutouts (one vs. MIN. who had seen him the week before) and closed out the season by going 6-0 with a 1.93 ERA (discounting final start).
I'm not in any way suggesting he will repeat this, but I'd be glad to take a 20% reduction if we consider the first 4 games as the exception rather than the rule.

by DocNo on Feb 2, 2007 7:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
It's unavoidable that the fans will put unfair expectations on Sowers this season.  People are already referring to him as our #3 pitcher, and he isn't our #3 any more than Cliff Lee was our #2 as he was touted a couple years ago.  The fair thing would be to just call him our #5 and see how it goes.

PECOTA is a very impressive tool, but there is a lot that it doesn't account for.  I'm disappointed that they haven't done anything in five years to improve the defensive metrics they're feeding it, which renders many of their WARP and MORP conclusions meaningless, as in Peralta's case.  And there may be a few things on the pitching side that are as bad as that.

PECOTA predicts a drop in performance for 2007, but also a bit of a rebound in 2008.  PECOTA seems pessimistic by its very nature, understanding as it does that regression to the mean is a more reliable predictor than any other one thing.  Much of its method lies in defining a player's mean better than most other systems.  It doesn't like what it sees in Sowers, even though it pegs Glavine as his top comparable.  A little further down, it has Buerhle and Jason Jacome (remember him?) in a dead heat.  And therein lies the range of possibilities.

PECOTA of course hates the K rate.  But everyone knows about the K rate, and everyone knows what it generally means.  The Indians know about the K rate, DiamondView I can assure you knows about the K rate.  On the other hand, DiamondView, like many of us, knows plenty in areas where PECOTA is totally in the dark.  The Indians' young players outperform PECOTA on a fairly regular basis in fact.  PECOTA hates Trevor Crowe, too.  I can promise you, Shapiro and Antonetti know why PECOTA hates Crowe and Sowers, and they like those guys anyway.  And not for superstitious or fuzzy reasons, either.  For some real good, systematic, analytical reasons.  Not purely statistical, but rigorous nonetheless.  I'm sure of it.

by Jay on Feb 2, 2007 8:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
There's something in what you say, no question.  I don't know what it is (but I agree with you that Shapiro and Antonetti have their own understanding).  

Sowers doesn't (at least in the opposition at bats covering 88 innings) allow the opposition to square the bat on the ball.  I was at a game in late August where Sowers rather easily handled the Tigers (I think Bonderman might have been on the mound) and we relatively cruised to victory.  Seemingly all the Tigers hits were jam jobs, bloop jobs, defensive swings.  

Let's not forget that Paul Byrd (a fair representation of the cerebral pitcher) has raved about the kid, wishing he knew as much about pitching and feel that Jeremy does right now.  

by cheech99 on Feb 2, 2007 9:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
There's a lot that confounds me about finesse pitchers, and Sowers is a perfect case. On the one hand, his peripherals in his (albeit short) major-league stint are very alarming. On the other hand, he looked very effective on the mound, and has the type of control that most successful pitchers have.

I wouldn't doubt that hitters will adjust to Jeremy.   But somehow the optimist in me points to his ability to adjust right back, making hitters go a comfortable 0-4. Irrational wishcasting, perhaps. But everything predicted in the offseason tends to go in that direction.

by Ryan on Feb 2, 2007 10:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Jay, I'd like you to know, on posts with a crap ton of comments, I often ctrl F "jay" to cut through the rest and get to your comments.  I find it an efficient way to keep up on my Tribe.  

by thetravishalffull on Feb 2, 2007 11:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I do the same thing.  Who has time to read all these other people?

by Jay on Feb 2, 2007 11:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
"...I often ctrl F "jay" to cut through the rest and get to your comments..."

I just did this and landed on this comment about doing this.  I do this every time i have been away from the site for a day or two... but I do it with Ryan's name too...

by Brick. on Feb 3, 2007 8:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
I confess, I occasionally do it, too, but other than Ryan, I won't say with whom.  Generally whoever I perceive has having written some interesting things lately.  I kind of wish we had avatars, I think it would make it easier to "get to know" different folks.  Maybe in the next software version.

by Jay on Feb 4, 2007 10:49 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
ctrl F Jay, is much, much better than F Jay, no? [sarc]

by talonk on Feb 4, 2007 1:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
For what it's worth, here are the guys who went yard on Sowers:


  1. Griffey
  2. Dunn
  3. Giambi
  4. Mora
  5. Rondell White
  6. Cuddyer
  7. L. Castillo

(the first 7 HR's happened in the first 4 starts)

  1. V. Guerrero
  2. G. Anderson
  3. B. Molina

5 of those guys (Griffey, Dunn, Giambi, Guerrero, Anderson) have probably roughed up their share of rookies, and Mora and Rondell White have had pretty decent careers.  Not sure if it's justified or not, but for some reason I'm encouraged that the list isn't full of backup catchers and utility IF'ers.

What does it mean?  Who knows?  But the utter unpredictability is what makes the game so captivating.

by CaptainEasy on Feb 2, 2007 11:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Re: Sour on Sowers?
Nice, that's a very interesting list.  Back in Akron, Sowers would often give up a home run in the first or second inning, because he was deliberately emphasizing the fastball to set everyone up for later in the game.  That pattern didn't hold up in Cleveland, and you can't see it in Buffalo where he basically didn't give up home runs at all.  I'll be looking to see if he gravitates back toward that as he adjusts to the league.

by Jay on Feb 4, 2007 10:53 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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