Alternate universe ending for yesterday

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 6:45 AM EDT

So I was only following the game online and I'm happy to be contradicted here, but here goes anyway. Why not lift Victor for Shoppach going to the bottom of the 8th? With two outs in the 9th,Posada "stole" second on defensive indifference to get into scoring position. I have to wonder if the game wouldn't have ended on a Shoppach throw to second in that case. We were up 6 to 2. This seems like the time to make defensive substitutions. Maybe Posada got a great jump. Maybe Shoppach would've thrown the ball to Grady. Or maybe Shoppach would've bailed us out of that horrible, horrible ending.

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Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

It wouldn't have mattered who was behind the plate - the Indians were playing back, including the middle infielders. They were going to let Posada have the base.

by Ryan on Apr 20, 2007 8:00 AM EDT 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Okay, that is definitely something that I couldn't see on gamecast. Thanks Ryan. I am cooling down at this point. Finally.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 8:59 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

You are also giving Shoppach too much credit and giving Martinez too much blame. While Shoppach may be a better defensive catcher, I'm not sure it is by a margin that is large enough to use for defensive substitutions, especially when we are talking the Yankees, whom have the ability to put up big numbers. That being said, having Martinez at bat for MAYBE another go around is more valuable then the marginal defensive upgrade.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on Apr 20, 2007 10:06 AM EDT 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

I see what you're saying about the offensive tradeoff. But I'm just thinking about the fact that Shoppach has already gunned down a would-be base stealer in the 9th this year. Small sample size, sure.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 10:39 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

How many have stolen on him though?
After the Indians-ChiSox series, Martinez was something like 2 or 3 out of 5. I think you are still looking at what he did last year and not allowing for him to "bounce back". Maybe it was the foot injury, maybe it was the pitchers, or maybe, Martinez just didn't put any offseason work into it. But until he HURTS this team defensively, I don't see any need for the marginal improvement to Shoppach.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on Apr 20, 2007 1:40 PM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Just a quick thought on defensive indifference. Is there any team that is as wholly indifferent in those situations as the Indians are? I dont know if ive ever seen a team that appears less concerend about those extra bases than the Eric Wedge Indians.
I never see our team take (or get handed to them) second base in those situations. Could that mean that there is something about a free runner in scoring position that other teams know that Wedge doesnt?
Maybe it's just sour grapes from yesterday's awful loss, but I have never been lower on our manager than i am right now. It's like yesterday was just the confluence of so many exasperating things about Wedge and the way he manages/the way his teams play.
What's his contract status anyway? I know this was his walk year, but did he get extended?

by mpstable on Apr 20, 2007 10:29 AM EDT 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

I agree, it does seem like we give away that extra base more than any other team. In fairness though, I only really pay attention to the Indians, so this could happen all the time and I wouldn't know it. I'm very low on Wedge right now. It may be unfounded, but it is what it is. I feel like we get out-managed in the majority of games/situations.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 10:37 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

This is last year under contract, but the team holds two option years. Don't whether that means two separate options, or one option lasting two years.

Either way, he has to win or he's gone.

by Ryan on Apr 20, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

I don't think the Indians handle defensive indifference any different from any other team.

What I know for sure is ... nobody here has presented any information that they do.

Mooooooooooooo.

by Jay on Apr 20, 2007 10:57 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Jay, you seem to be getting really worked up. Come have a cup of tea. I've finally calmed down. Everyone else will too. That was hard loss, lots of venting going on.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

I would prefer the venting to all these "rational arguments."

by Jay on Apr 20, 2007 11:00 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Would you like me to open up a deep breathing diary? A place where everyone can click and just take a few deep breaths? Or maybe a "let's all remember who we really hate" diary? Maybe we can all get centered and remember that we really hate the White Sox and the Yankees.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 11:02 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

The Haiku thread helped me immensely for some reason. I'm thinking of helping to make it a tradition.

by Thommy on Apr 20, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Yeah, but the idea of having a thread where you can just go and type "ARod is a poopy pants" is appealing to, don't you think?

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 11:18 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

That's what the cleveland.com forum is for. That place gets nuts sometimes, but is usually good for a chuckle.

I like LGT because most people here are above that kinda nonsense. But after a day like yesterday, i think everyone can be forgiven some overreacting anguish and garment-tearing. If you cant be irrationally emotional from time to time, whats the point of being a fan? If you're going to be a robot about watching baseball, why not just grow a porn-stache and put on a #22 jersey

by mpstable on Apr 20, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

This is, after all, a blog. It's a blog with lots of cool community features like diaries and threaded comments, but it's still a blog, and Ryan and Jay run the place. I think the community features have been well moderated, to the point that unless you have something egregiously unfounded or against the ground rules, you're not getting kicked off.

But (to me) you'd better have an opinion, and be prepared to defend that opinion, too. There are lots of places where you can slam Wedge or A-Rod or whoever (Cleveland.com, WKNR, the bathroom wall).

by mkwng on Apr 20, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Home run. Sigh, despair.
ARod is a poopy pants,
he who smelt, dealt it.

by Thommy on Apr 20, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Yeah, but the idea of having a thread where you can just go and type "ARod is a poopy pants" is appealing to, don't you think?

Or Buehrle is a jerk?

by nickjs21 on Apr 20, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Jerk, poopy pants, whatever...

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 20, 2007 4:52 PM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Isn't a "rational fan(atic)" an oxymoron?

People are going to be irrational after a brutal loss like that, it's human nature. But yes, if you bring the same attitude three days later, we're getting into irrational thinking.

by Ryan on Apr 20, 2007 12:02 PM EDT up 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

sorry to keep piling on with this subject, but i have one final thought on the indifference matter. most of the time it probably makes no difference (hence the name i suppose). but couldnt there be something to the argument that you have to keep the possibility of getting the force at second with a catcher at first, damon at bat, and jeter as the tying run on deck? im sure that even in that case, the base means very little statistically, but it was something i was thinkign about yesterday as it happened.

my final though on the game: i think the biggest problem was that no one went to the mound to calm jobo &/or give someone time to warm up to replace him. that there was no attempt to get a replacement ready when it was clear he just lost it is the most glaring mistake. ok. now im done. go tribe! beat d-rays!

by mpstable on Apr 20, 2007 2:32 PM EDT 0 recs

Re: Alternate universe ending for yesterday

Willis did visit the mound.

The reason that base doesn't matter is that the tieing run is behind him and there's already two outs -- so it can't possibly matter whether the baserunner starts out on first or second, because if the current batter scores, the current baserunner is going to score in any event. And if the current batter doesn't score, then the game is won.

Everybody likes to set up the force-outs, but it actually means very little when there's no DP to set up. I haven't seen any numbers on this, but I think you'd find that when there are two outs and a man on first, an infielder will almost always go for the out at first base. It's simply the easiest out on the field, even with a fast runner at the plate, and everybody knows that.

by Jay on Apr 20, 2007 11:05 PM EDT up 0 recs