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PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario

2094701_tiny by AngG on

Just saw the news at indians.com. Rosario's an 18 year old pitcher from the Dominican Republic who has yet to play in the minor leagues.

According to the previously linked article

The 6-foot-4, 180-pound right-handed Rosario spent the last two seasons pitching for Seattle's Dominican Summer League team, where he went a combined 11-4 with a 3.01 ERA over 23 starts.

... and, of course, they don't know where we're going to put him.

Thoughts? Anyone?

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Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
yeah, everyone who saw that coming raise their hand.......... not all at once...... anyone?

by Brick. on May 17, 2007 8:44 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
From scout.com's Best Mariners in Latin America feature:

Rosario, who signed a contract in late 2004 just months after gaining the rights to negotiate - at an age where pitchers are typically raw in talent - the teen was tied for the league lead with a perfect 7-0 record. The unusual combination of youth and polish were part of what netted him the title of staff MVP, but he still has some distance to go.

It'll be interesting to see what Baseball America has to say about him.  Not much in the past.

by Jay on May 17, 2007 8:47 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Boy, as an Ms fan, I sure am sad to see Adam Jones go, no? Wladimir Balentien, no? Chris Tillman, no? Well who? Gregorio Resario? who? Yeah, exactly.

by MatthewLL on May 17, 2007 9:01 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
OK, I'll admit I missed it.  I figured Shapiro would take Bavasi to the cleaners.  But we've been abusing Seattle GMs since we go Omar for Felix Fermin(!).  Given Shapiro's track record this maybe the best trade of the year - or a big meh.  Stay tuned.
Sometimes you just gotta be gritty

by mauichuck on May 17, 2007 9:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
As an Ms fan, you should assume you've been burned again.  

by homelytourist on May 17, 2007 9:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
So you're taunting us because we got a low prospect for somebody that had nobody offered us anything, we would have paid to sit at home?

by Nat on May 17, 2007 9:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
This is an interesting counter angle to what everyone was calling "EBay"-esqe a week ago.

As I stated, it seems like Shapiro's back was against the wall and he had to take SOMETHING.  Whether this is a good or bad trade, none of us will know for almost another decade, so there really isn't any point in commenting...EXCEPT:

I just wish a team at the top of the division would have worked hard at improving its current situation.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 9:15 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I think moving Davis was our way of improving our bullpen.

by Roger Dorn on May 18, 2007 9:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Sometimes the best addition is by subtraction.
Unofficial Andy Marte and Joe Borowski Apologist. My fantasy team - Swindon SpecOps 27.

by woodsmeister on May 18, 2007 10:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
The Davis situation was unlikely to garner a player that could help us this year, nor provide an input of talent at the top of our minor league organization, which is glutted with outfielders and pitchers.  Shapiro's back wasn't against the wall.  He took a flyer on a high ceilinged guy at the lowest levels. It's a good move, a smart bet.  At the mid minor league levels we only could have gotten a roster-filler for Davis.

by Bogalusa Bomber on May 18, 2007 10:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
"The Davis situation was unlikely to garner a player that could help us this year, nor provide an input of talent at the top of our minor league organization, which is glutted with outfielders and pitchers.  Shapiro's back wasn't against the wall."

This is an entirely different tone then the one that was given a week ago.  It seemed as though posters here thought that there would be some form of "bidding war".  With that in mind, this scenario could not have been further from a "bidding war".

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 10:58 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
How do you know that it wasn't?  Where you there in the room with Shapiro when he was on the phone with other GM's?

by Brick. on May 18, 2007 11:06 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
You are correct to question me here...

The problem is, when people are "bidding" with nickles and dimes it can HARDLY be considered a "war".  Had the prospect come from a team in NEED of relief pitching OR been a higher level prospect OR been a prospect not from a franchise that is run by a man who is a "moron" then I may consider that there MIGHT have been a bidding war.  However, seeing as though the prospect came from Seattle and has never thrown a pitch in America, its safe to say Shapiro was not fending off offers for BA top 100 players!

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 12:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
You have posited a convenient non sequitur here.  At least two of your required criteria ("Had the prospect come from a team in NEED of relief pitching" OR "been a prospect not from a franchise that is run by a man who is a 'moron'"), and arguably the third, are completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not a "bidding war" did indeed occur.  An argument built upon conveniently defined, subjective premises cannot succed.  

(i.e, there is no reason that a "moron" cannot outbid his competition - in fact, that is often what happens in a "bidding war").  Thus, although it is indeed possible that you are correct, your argument still fails.

Bottom line is none of us know whether or not a bidding war occurred (although given Shapiro's track record, it is not unreasonable to presume that one did) - problem is, your analysis doesn't get to that question.  

by mplswahoo on May 18, 2007 1:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Shapiro's track record?  I'm sorry, when has he been in a "bidding war" and come out with something of importance?

And the reality is, those factors are important.

Consider this:
Team A is desperate for pitching help.
Team B is not desperate for pitching help.
Team C is in need of help, but could get by without it.
Team D loves stockpiling arms.

Whom would you assume would offer the best player?  Obviously A, followed by C, D and B.

However, in this instance, Team A did not get the pitcher and were either uninterested or did not offer "enough" - which in and of itself would be strange given their "desperation" and the fact that they are knowingly in a "bidding war".
Team B ends up with the pitcher and does not give up anything substantial for a ML pitcher.

Now tell me, HOW IS IT that team need has nothing to do with gauging whether or not there was in fact a "bidding war".  Continuing, how is it that a prospect that seems pretty low on the radar screen was the "winning bid" if infact there was a "war" ensuing?

So I will not deny that there were probably other offers.  I bet every team sent out atleast one offer.  But the fact that the player that got the job done was such a low level player and had come from a team not even CLOSE to being desperate, I think it is safe to say it was more of a picnic then a "war".

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 19, 2007 12:02 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Well, there was that time when he traded Colon for Grady and Lee.  Does that count?
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.

by jdudas on May 19, 2007 7:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I'm pretty sure that that DiceK fellow never threw a pitch in the Western Hemisphere yet - but he seemed to draw some interest - not to mention money
Sometimes you just gotta be gritty

by mauichuck on May 18, 2007 4:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Correction: WBC
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 10:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
There was a bidding for him and Shapiro chose the best option among the ones provided. That's what bidding does.  We could have given him away for free. It's just price shopping.  You get a better price or conditions for the same item, you take it. Pretty simple.

by Bogalusa Bomber on May 18, 2007 12:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I just have a feeling there wasn't much "bidding" going on.  Given how "desperate" StLouis is made out to be and the problems other teams are having with their pens you've gotta think they would offer something of better value for a ML pitcher.

And when the team who acquires him has no bullpen issues to speak of, its tough to believe they were breaking the bank to get him.

Unless, this is a kid that Shapiro has had his eye on for quite some time.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 11:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Counterthoughts!
Hello Brandini,

No offense, but:

"I just have a feeling there wasn't much "bidding" going on.  Given how "desperate" StLouis is made out to be and the problems other teams are having with their pens you've gotta think they would offer something of better value for a ML pitcher."

Your feeling equates to trying to get inside the head of Shapiro and the negotiations, correct?  In other words, you don't know for sure - you're just guessing, correct?

"And when the team who acquires him has no bullpen issues to speak of, its tough to believe they were breaking the bank to get him."

Actually, that's not entirely true - Mateo was suspended by the Mariners because of the domestic incident where his wife allegedly had five stitches inserted into her mouth.  The Mariners demoted him to AAA and eventually put him on their AAA inactive list.  That's why there is a greivance by the Players' Union regarding Mateo - it will cost him sizable money from his salary if he remains there.

A AAA pitcher with less experience than Davis was brought up at first to replace Mateo, so saying that the Mariners didn't have bullpen issues isn't exactly accurate in my opinion.  That's the main reason they went after Davis in the first place - if they didn't have any bullpen issues to speak of, why would they bother going after Davis?  Is he that stellar and a "must-have" pitcher to even offer a prospect at all for him if they didn't have a need for him?  They obviously had to have a need for him or they likely wouldn't have offered ANYTHING for him - they would have either allowed someone else to trade for him (and it seems there were other teams interested in him, according to published reports) or they would have let him go on waivers and tried to pick him up there for nothing but his contract if they were able to.

Saying that the Mariners didn't have a bullpen need isn't accurate in my opinion.

"Unless, this is a kid that Shapiro has had his eye on for quite some time."

From what others have said in this thread, especially regarding the fact that the Indians tried to sign him 3 years ago, but were outbid, that seems like a reasonable possibility.  In any case, I think it's safe to assume that they had a lot more information on Rosario than was publicly known by us fans, which probably further convinced the Indians to take Seattle's offer for Davis.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on May 19, 2007 12:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Living in St. Louis and seeing them play now... I have no doubt they'd be interested. But take a look through their farm system... they have no one.  If they did, they'd be in the show already getting their shot.

A lot of the desperate teams simply don't have much to want either.

by tyler083 on May 19, 2007 11:35 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Mr. Shapiro, MatthewLL has never heard of Gregorio Resario.  You'd better get someone else.

by Brick. on May 17, 2007 9:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
wow. so snippy! jeez. personally, i expected someone in the low minors, who had a lot of upside, but of whom we probably hadn't heard a lot. just because a few people suggested it'd be a high-level major prospect doesn't mean you've gotta be a jerk to all of us.

this entire debacle is making me very, very tired of M's fans.

by AngG on May 17, 2007 9:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Ah, remember, they have to get up tomorrow and fear Bavasi's next move.  There's a part of me that feels bad for them.  But then I just start snickering.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 17, 2007 9:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I'm just curious...

What in the last year has Bavasi done that was so terrible?  Everyone got on him about the Vidro trade, that seems to be working out.  He acquired Broussard and Perez for two prospects that were unlikely to make much of an impact for his team.  He signed Guillen to a reasonable contract, and that is working out alright.  Johjima, Ibanez.

I'm not saying he is without flaws, but the guy hasn't done a terrible job with his team and resources.  Certain players (Sexson and Beltre) ended up being overpaid, but both of whom were hot comodities - or so it seemed.  He's made a couple of so-so trades (specifically, Soriano and Guillen), however neither did not come without a reasonable explanation (injury concern).

Again, his track record is not as terrible as one makes it out to be.  Rarely has a prospect from the Ms organization went on to have immidiate and lasting success with another organization.  That isn't the barometer to measure a player by, however, it discards the notion that any player acquired from the Ms is going to be of quality.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 9:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
In what way is the Vidro deal working out?  They have a league average hitter being paid $12 million to be a DH.  The best you can say is that the two players they traded may not amount to much.  But Vidro at DH, with that contract, is absolutely worthless.

by Jay on May 18, 2007 11:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
So somewhere in your logic you are stating that the Ms would be better off with the player they traded over Vidro?  Is that based on actual numbers, or some random guess?  If Vidro was getting paid $100M I wouldn't care.  The fact is, he is outperforming the player he was traded for, and in the end, performance, not value is what wins games.
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 12:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I'll agree in partial that performance is part of the equation, but value also a huge part of the equation.

You can pay someone $10M to fill a position and if he outperforms who was there before, that is good. But if it is only marginal, say +10 OPS+, wouldn't it have been better to spend that dough on two complimentary players to fill two roles (say RP and LF) for the same cost and the same +10 OPS+?

I think you'd have to agree yes. But you won't.

by talonk on May 18, 2007 12:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
No no, value is important, I agree with that.  However, if you are getting zero production from a player making the minimum that is not good value.

I agree that the Ms probably could have gotten better or equal player for the same or less money, however Vidro is quite flexible - something Piazza and Thomas are not.
Also, consider that the team does not have any REAL holes to fill and are not really cash strapped.

It is interesting that you bash Vidro at $10M but have no beef with Nixon, Dellucci and Borowski at their salaries.  Would the Indians not have been better served bringing in an Eric Gagne and filling the other holes from within?

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 11:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Given Vidro's basically average performance, yes, they'd be better off with the players they traded AND $12 million that could be used to get some non-Jeff Weaver pitching or a whole lot of candy bars or something more useful than an overpaid mediocre DH.

by zempf on May 18, 2007 12:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Why don't you just come over to my office, we can write these together.

by Jay on May 18, 2007 12:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
in the end, performance, not value is what wins games

Oh, I agree -- but you apply the opposite standard when it comes to Indians trades.  Of course the M's would be better off with the two prosepcts -- trading them for something more valuable -- and the $12 million -- spending it on something more valuable.

A player of equivalent value could have been acquired for far less.  A guy like Julio Franco or Jack Cust, for example.  I am amazed, after the 10,000 words on Byrd-vs.-Castillo, that this isn't obvious to you.  But I guess everyone but Shapiro gets the huge rationalized free pass from you.

by Jay on May 18, 2007 12:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Interesting...
Vidro although flexible and "league average" is not worth $12M in your opinion YET Byrd is worth his $8M and well below "league average".

Shapiro gets plenty of passes from me!  Although I'm sure he doesn't care.  The thing that you miss out on, is how many poor signings Shapiro does.  Your excuse, "Well atleast he didn't break the bank".  And you are right, he didn't, but MAYBE he would be better off doing such in order to get players that are "league average", rather then signing cheap duds!

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 11:06 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
You're confusint the Indians with the Yankees.  If you are operating on a budget - like every other team in baseball - then what you pay for production is critical.
Sometimes you just gotta be gritty

by mauichuck on May 18, 2007 4:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
You are right that it is critical.  But if you are getting nothing out of a league minimum player, then that is still nothing.  So if it costs $10M to get league average, sometimes you've gotta spend it.
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 11:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Rosario has a much better chance of being
something useful to great because he has a lot of projection left, something Davis no longer has, so it was still a good trade for the Indians, regardless of how well Davis does or how well Rosario turns out - Rosario is much better than losing Davis on waivers.  Davis, at best, will probably be serviceable with flashes of good to great performance, but being that he's now 27-YO, he no longer has any projection and likely won't be better than what he is now, which is probably serviceable at best.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on May 17, 2007 9:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I'm calling this one a draw, between homelytourist and sbricker, for best response.  Well done, gents.

(Andrew, where's my gavel?)

by Jay on May 18, 2007 12:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Thanks Jay,

So do you think this was one of those 'scout X fell in love with this guy and told the FO to get him if they ever had a chance' or simply a 'look at the list of guys you can pick from and pick the one that you like the best'?

by Brick. on May 18, 2007 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Not sure, but I do think it's a case where the Indians (and other teams) have a lot of data on the guy, even though we don't.  We have very little information on Latin American players compared with the extensive scouting of high school and college players in the U.S.

by Jay on May 18, 2007 11:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I think it's case A, at least to a mild degree.  This morning's PD reports that the Indians tried to sign him 3 years ago but were outbid.  I'm assuming when the FO saw his name on the list, they agreed that not only did they still like what they liked about him 3 years ago, but that he has since put up good numbers.  He may or may not ever become a prospect, but I assume it was an easy choice.

by nickjs21 on May 18, 2007 11:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
He is already a prospect.  The DSL is a real organized league.

by Jay on May 18, 2007 11:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Agreed.  

Oh, and I found that link I spoke of below.  Here.  Indians/Mets treat their Dominican signees well.

by nickjs21 on May 18, 2007 11:51 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario

This is a picture I took of me giving Jay his new gavel.

by afh4 on May 18, 2007 11:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
That picture really doesn't do Jay justice.  He doesn't dye the hair anymore.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 18, 2007 11:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Oh and MatthewLL (I'm assuming you're the non Cool LL), when guys like Jones names were being thrown around last week, it wasn't serious at all. We knew JD would never glean us a #1 or #2 rated prospect. It was more of joking around.

But hey, since your team only likes to joke around in the dugout after a game gets snowed out (which now in the long run, hurts your team by having to make 3 more trips to Cleveland), I could understand your confusion.

by talonk on May 18, 2007 10:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I'm surprised.  I really thought that we would've gotten something a little more substantial.  At least I have the satisfaction of knowing that our GM usually comes out ahead.  I wouldn't be surprised if this becomes a steal in a few years.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 17, 2007 9:33 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Yeah. when i saw it was someone at such a low level, i assumed that shapiro decided to go for talent over major-league readiness and that this kid might end up amounting to something. but i admit i always give shapiro the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows what he's doing. (note: this is because he generally seems to.)

by AngG on May 17, 2007 9:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
"assume he knows what he's doing"

Exactly, see sbricker's reply to the M's fan above.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 17, 2007 9:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
6'4" 180 lb. Dominican?  Sounds a bit like the kid who just threw the complete game shutout.  How much did Fausto weigh when we signed him?  

by cheech99 on May 17, 2007 9:48 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
first order of business: rush the kid to the orthodontist.

by nctribefan on May 18, 2007 2:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
i missed this in the fray.  well played.

by Brick. on May 18, 2007 2:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Rumor has it he's got teeth like a horse...why do you think the FO was so high on him in the first place?

by APV on May 18, 2007 2:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Here's some more info from  a site monitoring Seattle prospects.

It mentions:

Rosario is the most projectable pitcher in this group at 6-4, 185 and just 18 years of age. He made 13 starts in the DSL a year ago and piled up 68 1/3 innings allowing 67 hits (2 HR), striking out 62 and issuing 25 walks.


by haymister on May 17, 2007 9:50 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Let's see it this way: here is our 2nd, 3rd or 4th round draft pick for 2007 (CLE doesn't have a pick in those rounds, if I'm correct) already signed on the cheap in exchange for JD.
I'll take that. As Shapiro claimed, some of his previous deals were about artificially augmenting the draft. voila.

by DocNo on May 17, 2007 10:11 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
This is the kind of guy I expected Cleveland to get.  I thought low-A more likely...but a young guy thought to have a potentially high ceiling is what I thought they'd spin JD off for.  We don't have a lot of obvious holes/needs or even spots at the AA and AAA level.  When you factor in what we have in Cleveland, we have even less need at those levels.  The one thing you always have a need for are guys who are special enough to make a definite impact.  Is this guy one of those?  Probably not.  Probably less than a 1/20 chance he is.  But he has some chance, which is more than what we can say about a scrub AAAA pitcher or some other organizational filler.

by APV on May 17, 2007 10:34 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Frankly, I thought putting JD the DFA list was a stroke of genius.  It said, "let the bidding begin" and I hoped it would lead to some team in disperate need of pitching to over reach for JD.  When I heard it was the Mariners I figured that they were a good candidate to do the over reaching, given their recent track record.  Looks like I was wrong.  But then again the Indians front office has upgraded their Latin American scouting and this kid might - might be a sleeper.  I trust Shapiro to act like Shapiro and Bavasi to act like Bavasi.
Sometimes you just gotta be gritty

by mauichuck on May 17, 2007 11:37 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
It's tough to have an opinion on a guy at his age and level; I hope/assume our scouts are on to something.  

On one hand, we got someone for a "AAAA" roster burden who has exhausted his projectability.

On the other hand, we gave up a Major Leaguer (of sorts) for a guy whose chances are remote and is years away even with consistent progress.

This Rosario guy could be a homerun.  That's exciting, I guess.  

by homelytourist on May 18, 2007 12:10 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I like it, with the obvious proviso that I've never heard of this kid and assume that the scouts have been all over it. The reason I like it is because it hopefully reflects a change in the player aquisition strategy, which for many years has pretty much (with some exceptions) concentrated on safe bets. As safe as possible in the overall crap shoot.

And it's worked - the farm system is filled with guys who deserve a shot to advance, even if there aren't many whose performance demands it.

Shap's only comment prior to this was that they had their eye on a guy with "huge upside". I guess this is the guy - raw and unproven but with a lot of potential. I hope we approach the draft next month the same way and stock up on young high ceiling talent. We can now afford to do so.

by mcrose on May 18, 2007 12:13 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Shapiro and his lieutenants have extended their contracts so they now have a stronger interest in the out years.

by palcal on May 18, 2007 1:28 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I just read a great article on the Indians and how well we run our development of Latin players.  I'll have to find the link.  Having already read that, this signing encourages me.

by nickjs21 on May 18, 2007 2:58 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
"Signing" ... Sorry, all my new player vocabulary is still rusty from winter.  Trade.  This trade encourages me.

by nickjs21 on May 18, 2007 2:59 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Bavasi: Ya, see. I've learned.  I took a deserved beating for my deals in the past few years. Why was I so obvious to deal guys from AAA level, guys on everyone's top lists?  I should have known better, been more stealthy.  I won't make that mistake again.  So I've decided to make all new mistakes.  A new me.  You stat heads won't detect these as easy.  I'm gong to plant minefields for the next GM by giving away all the high ceilinged guys in the lower levels before they get on those prospect lists.  Then no one will notice the slow dull tranformation to mediocrity, except in the barren farm system and in the win-loss column.  By then I'll be retired sipping lattes in the morning at one of our fine coffee shops here in Seattle...if anyone will serve me a coffee anymore or even allow me within the city limits.

by Bogalusa Bomber on May 18, 2007 4:54 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
Could you list off the AAA players that were on the top of everyones list that Bavasi has traded away?

Furthermore, could you list off those players that went on to have even a slight amount of success and how it in turn hurt the Ms?

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 9:34 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
You've really missed the point. By mismanaging and underutilizing his assets he's not maximizing the ability to succeed both in the short and long term.  So what if those AAA guys haven't produced yet.  He could have gotten MORE from those assets when he traded them.

Specifically, Bavasi has acquired poorly (Beltre, Sexson, Guardado, Vidro, Weaver), managed his assetts poorly (didn't maximize value), and traded poorly (Soriano, Choo, Cabbie),  He got Johjima because of his Nintendo owner's Japanese influence, not his genius.  He both spent a lot and got little production.  He and Isiah Thomas must be sharing GM secrets. His family's baseball pedigree has probably saved him, but he's managed to use up its goodwill in 3 years, no mean feat.

Above all, the Mariner's won-loss record is a disaster the past three years. And although they are 20-20 this year, they have scored 18 runs fewer than they've given up.  Not a good portent.  Sure, maybe they compete anyway this year.  But the odds are they will fall back as the odds catch up with them.

He's also going to lose Ichiro after the season. The guy is tired of losing and is already speaking of the Mariners in the past tense in Japanese newspapers. Ichiro is not as money focused as others.  He wants his career to be capped by playing on winning teams, not an organization that is squandering its money and its assets. If Seattle doesn't make a suprise move deep into the playoffs, he's gone.

by Bogalusa Bomber on May 18, 2007 1:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
First, Beltre, Sexson and Guardado were all about market value players.  Had he not signed them, the players would have went for slightly less money to another franchise.  They were all "star" FA's at one point or another.  While he overpaid for them, this happens on an annual basis in the majors.  Certain teams have a strong enough core to bounce back from a bad signing, or enough money.  Other teams really get hurt from them.
Second, who said he managed his assets poorly with Soriano, Choo and Astro?  Soriano, maybe, but a starter is clearly more valuable then a reliever and Soriano had some serious injury concerns - there were reports of him not being able to hit 90 during his winter league.  Choo, lets wait and see on that one, hes obviously not currently better then Nixon, who is the type of player that is available annually.  Astro, this is yet to be seen.  He did not have a spot upcoming for the Mariners given their strong MI core, and again, will need to prove himself.  If he goes on to do nothing at the ML level, acquiring a ML player even for half of a season was worth it.

He has done a poor job acquiring starting pitching.  There is no denying that.  He has also made mistakes that are made league-wide.  He will lose Ichiro, but the continual bashing of him does not make sense.  In my opinion, hes probably about average.  If Choo, Soriano, Astro, etc go on to having productive ML careers, then those can go down as mistakes and will make his resume look much worse.  But for now, you can't grade him on those happenings.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 18, 2007 5:52 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: PTBNL from the Davis deal: Gregorio Rosario
I'm trying to understand this.  He's made five major bad signings, three for big money, and yet, it happens all the time and he can't be blamed??  Step back for a second.  If Shapiro made signings like that that didn't pan out we would be apoplectic.  Aaron Boone was our "disaster" and he only cost a few million a year.  The fact is that every time a team makes a bad move there is both a cost (of the player) and an opportunity cost (player you didn't sign, money you didn't allocate more efficiently somewhere else, talent you have to move off/on the roster, etc). That's why all these individual moves, although seemingly smal