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Around SBN: Please, Someone Make Bob Sapp Stop Already

Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY

Confirming once again that he is an all-time great douchebag, Roger Clemens has signed with the Yankees for a prorated $28 million, or about $18.5 million by the time he actually makes it back to the majors.

In lighter news, the Twins have sent Joe Mauer to the Disabled List with a strained quadriceps muscle.

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Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Tim Lincecum will always rember the day he made his major league debut was the same day roger clemens gave new meaning to the phrase 'self aggrandize'.

by Brick. on May 6, 2007 9:37 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
How to Love Yourself More than Anyone Else, Ever: The Roger Clemens Story
Founding member of DrBradyQuinn's Medicine Ladies.

by Brad D on May 6, 2007 11:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
The Roger Clemens Story: Being Done with Baseball but Having Teams Knock on Your Door When you Just Want to Spend Time with Your Family...

Who here would turn down $18M+ to work for AT MOST 40 days?!?  Clemens isn't being a "douchebag" or any of the other labels the people on this board have tabbed him as.  He hardly WANTS to pitch and he is aware of his own limitations.  The guy doesn't want to go through a spring training in which the workouts don't even come close to his own training, and he wants to spend time with his son.  

I think the rest of America could learn a thing of two about parenting from this guy!  I mean, how many deadbeat dads are out there?  How many workaholic dads are out there?  How many physically/mentally abusive dads are out there?  How many substance abusing dads are out there?  How many "my kids don't matter" dads are out there?!?
Again, if he was doing something specific, that was hurting a team, then sure, hes a douchebag.  But given teams are getting on their knees for a CHANCE to have him pitch, why should he care?!?  The guy gets to make a load of money, pitch when needed and spend time with his family and kids.  He doesn't have to deal with all the garbage Bonds has to.

So if Roger "Loves Himself More then Anyone Else", I would probably HATE to see someone who "actually" put their family first.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
So you're saying Clemens just wants to spend time with his family & those mean teams just keep throwing money at him so he's just gotta go out there & pitch? Sure. I thought the whole reason he was with the Astros was so he could be near his home & be in the same system as his son Koby, so what's his reason for spurning the Astros this year?

Holding up Clemens as the paragon of family virtue for taking umpteen million dollars to pitch for the Yankees is honestly one of the biggest loads I've ever heard. Ugh.

by zempf on May 7, 2007 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Does it not sound as if he has the exact same privledges with the Yankees as he had with the Astros?  Yes, it does.

So aside from the game or two that he will be able to play with his son when he gets in shape - which, sounded as if he did not like putting that type of microscope on his sons game - he will spend approximately the same amount of time at home.  Save a few hours of travel here and there.  The guy will fly in the morning of his start and fly home shortly thereafter.  Maybe he will fly in the night before or stay an extra night if his good friend Andy Pettitte is pitching.
I think you are confusing his last season or two of single year contracts with what his MAIN goal was.  And that was to spend as much time with his family as possible.  When he first signed with Houston, I don't believe he had such great privledges - I believe he was supposed to be at anything team related IN Houston, but only had to travel for his away games.

Thus, "spurning" the Astros really doesn't mean much to me.  Especially considering how close he is with multiple players on the Yankees.  How close he is with the ownership.

The fact is, I don't care if he got paid $1 dollar or $100M, the guy CLEARLY is more interested in his family and what means most to him then 90% of the lame parents in this nation.  If you want to call him a "douchebag" and "self loving", then go ahead, but if the REAL "douchebag" and "self loving" parents would step away from their jobs, outside marriage romances, addictions or even their own inability to keep their OWN marriages intact, this world would be a better place.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
It's just short of offensive to me that you'd hold up Clemens as some ideal of good fatherhood when this situation basically has no real-world parallels. Completely ignoring the money, what real world fathers can set their own terms of employment that are completely different from those of his coworkers and still have people banging down his door to hire him? Yeah, wow, I'll bet most of the deadbeat dads in this society would be a lot better fathers if their employers told them they only had to work every fifth day & were free to go hang out with their kids every other day.

And don't pretend you know his motivations any better than any of the rest of us do. I think it's the money and the fame, you think it's his kids. Does anyone really know beyond our interpretations of whatever soundbite he chooses to give the media? No.

by zempf on May 7, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
what real world fathers can set their own terms of employment that are completely different from those of his coworkers and still have people banging down his door to hire him?

Hardly any, if any at all.  But how many fathers put in 60-70 hour weeks, with little to no gain for the family?  Sure it increases their shares a little, buys them a fancy car or bigger house.  But I bet it also breaks up more families!

Yeah, wow, I'll bet most of the deadbeat dads in this society would be a lot better fathers if their employers told them they only had to work every fifth day & were free to go hang out with their kids every other day.

Again, he is being called a "douchebag" and "self loving" BECAUSE of these clauses in his contract.  BECAUSE he doesn't pitch from opening day on.  How many fathers would sacrifice 30% of their annual salary to spend time with their oldest son?  How many fathers in NYC buy an apartment in the city and have a house in the burbs that they come home to on weekends instead of driving home to see their children every night?
So the guy puts his family first and is thus a "douchebag"?  I'm sorry, BECAUSE he puts his family first, there isn't much in my mind that could make the guy a "douchebag" ESPECIALLY with all the poor parents in this nation!

And don't pretend you know his motivations any better than any of the rest of us do.

You are right, I don't!  But I don't try to interpret it.  I do know that he could make quite a bit more money - hell he could probably sign a garunteed 5yr $100M contract TODAY if he wanted - but the guy is trying to pull himself away from something that has been a major part of his life for the last 30+ years.  But he's having a difficult time, so he TRIES to atleast spend time with his family that he otherwise didn't have the chance too.
You call this "ego" boosting and "self loving", I just think the guy is having a tough time walking away, but at the same time, is trying to be the best father he can.  Which, lets be fair, is more then MOST parents can say!

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Brandini, you need a major dose of reality here.  First, you've got to be kidding to think that any team would offer Clemens a five year deal.  For a 44-year-old pitcher?

Second, last I checked, baseball was still a team game.  If my son were a few years older and actually cared about sports (he's not quite five now), I'd hold Clemens up as an example of someone NOT to emulate.  He puts his needs and interests above those of his teammates.  It's great to want to spend more time with your family.  I make that a priority, and I can back up that statement because I took a 20% pay cut some years ago to be able to raise my family in an area where I felt family was important, instead of in an area where family was more of another status symbol and check box on your to-do list.  But if you've committed to being a MLB pitcher, you're going to have long stretches where you're not home.  But you commit to being the best player for the team, not for your own purposes.  That means none of this not traveling with the team if you're not scheduled to pitch, or special accommodations, or skipping the beginning part of the season because it's just too long, or you think your training regimen is better anyway, or any of a number of other reasons.

If I truly believed his actions were selflessly motivated, I would applaud him.  Don't listen too long or hard for the sound of one hand clapping.

by mickeyf on May 7, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
What glorious fatherly duties was he participating in when his ridiculous ego had him giving that melodramatic speach at yankee stadium yesterday?

"Cody, quick turn on your TV to the Yankees Game - Your daddy's going to get a standing-o.  Humbleness and Humiliation are for poor people.  Your daddy is a hero."

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
  1.  Were you in the press box?  Do you know if he asked for the microphone?  Do you know if he had a speech planned?
  2.  24/7?  Sorry, I didn't know that everyone here took everything to the absolute extreme!  So because he isn't at his son's side 24/7 hes a bad father?

Again, you don't know why the speech was made.  Given how informal it was.  Given the fact that Pettitte was absolutely SHOCKED!  Given the ROAR of the Yankee fans who had gone from, "its going to be a long season" to "watch out Sox".  I would say the speech had as little to do about him, as it did with George forcing him up there.
But hell, show me the footage you had of when you were in the owners box and Roger was frantically looking for a microphone, and that will shut me up!
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
You're the one that blatered on about how good a father he was.  My point:  That self-loving grandstanding is obnoxious and not a good example to anyone's son or daughter.

I don't care about how much ludicrous money they throw at him and he takes, or how many special considerations he gets in his contract.  That little speach, whoever's idea it was, whoever was in the press box was a douchebag move.  And I don't need to be there to know that.

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
You're the one that blatered on about how good a father he was.  My point:  That self-loving grandstanding is obnoxious and not a good example to anyone's son or daughter.

So you were there?  You saw him chase down the microphone?

The guy JUST signed a HUGE contract.  I'm CERTAIN it was the ownership saying, "here, say hello to our currently distraught fans".

So who is the douchebag?  If you don't know who's "move" it was, how can you call Roger a "douchebag" because of it?

The fact is, you don't know.  But what we DO know, is the guy spends more time with his family then pretty much any athlete out there.  Infact, I would wager there is hardly a 45 year old father out there that is around more then Roger is.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Dude. You can't keep trotting out the "Were you there? Do you know what happened?" argument & then pretend that you know.

by zempf on May 7, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I've never pretended to know...Thats the point.  I don't make a claim about him "boosting his ego" when I don't know whether it was George or Roger who decided to go on the mic.  However, given how it wasn't even close to formal and how shocked Pettitte seemed, it appeared to be more about the fans, then it did some crazy ego boost.  The guy is a lock for the HOF and has more money then he knows what to do with it, how could making some people he doesn't know cheer make him possibly feel any better about himself?!?
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Cashman and Clemens planned the whole thing.  Roger was in New York specifically to make the announcement from the owner's box.

by Jay on May 7, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Source?
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I heard that on ESPN (probably SC) this morning.

by AngG on May 7, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Strange, he seemed truly apologetic towards Pettitte - who seemed incredibly shocked.  Interesting turn and something I will have to chew on.

I also thought the signing was Steinbrenner and not Cashman.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Dude, I don't care if he chased it or not.  He took it and no one held a gun to his head.

Why do you keep asking if I was there?  It has nothing to do with anything and doesn't discredit my opinion any more than if i were there would credit it.

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Dude, I don't care if he chased it or not.  He took it and no one held a gun to his head.

Haha, again...you weren't there!

The reason why I keep asking if you were there, is because you are making it sound as if Roger hunted down the microphone, had his speech delivered to him on a platinum and diamond plate, pounded his chest and said, "we're going to win the world championship".

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Before this degrades into a shouting match...

Clemens is in a position where he can dictate his terms. He's the best pitcher of his generation, and he's still one of the better pitchers in the game, even if his numbers aren't going to look as good in the AL East. Most 45-year-old pitchers couldn't take a couple months off and still get a job, never mind get paid over $20M. You can't blame him for taking the money, you'd probably do the same thing.

That being said, he's going to be perceived as opportunistic, and for good reason. By sitting out the beginning of the season, he drove up his value, especially after the Yankees' starting rotation turned into the worst in the majors. That he signed with the Yankees further reinforces the perception. And after a while, it gets tiring of seeing him "retire" year after year. I know I'm sick of the annual Clemens Watch, and I normally have a high tolerance for these kinds of things.

So you both can be right. It doesn't have to be one or the other.

by Ryan on May 7, 2007 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
totally agree.  again, got nothing (relatively speaking) against his taking the money or the contract - would undoubtedly do the same thing.  i just didn't like the grandstanding - that i wouldn't do.

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I wouldn't do the grandstanding either.

But for $20M with the owner saying, "go on Roger, say Hello", I'm not going to say, "sorry Mr Steinbrenner, I'd rather not".  And I'm sure you wouldn't either.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
My issue is, he isn't "driving up his value".

I think this for a couple reasons.  Starting with his age.  The guy is 45 years old, what would be a better economic decision?  Signing a year to year contract for an unknown sum OR signing a 5 year contract for a lesser but garunteed sum.  Again, he is 45, he could break down at ANY day, thus, would he not be making a better move by signing a 5 year deal and getting injured after year two?

Also, as has been said below, this is a business, thus if he is seen as "opportunistic", then wouldn't EVERYONE been seen as opportunistic?  The same people who call Clemens a "douchebag" cheer for Westbrook for giving the Indians a "hometeam discount".
So Clemens made the decision that best suited his needs - which appear to be family focused - which drives back to my innitial statement, that the guy CAN NOT be called a "douchebag" as he probably stands as one of the most family first professional athletes around.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Also, as has been said below, this is a business, thus if he is seen as "opportunistic", then wouldn't EVERYONE been seen as opportunistic?

OK, opportunistic relative to the normal MLB player.

Signing a year to year contract for an unknown sum OR signing a 5 year contract for a lesser but garunteed sum.

No one in their right mind would give Clemens a 5-year deal at his age, especially since he's always "contemplating" retirement.

So Clemens made the decision that best suited his needs - which appear to be family focused - which drives back to my innitial statement, that the guy CAN NOT be called a "douchebag" as he probably stands as one of the most family first professional athletes around.

No, he can do these things because he's Roger Clemens. Other players are just as family-oriented, but can't dictate those kind of terms because they aren't as good.

by Ryan on May 7, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
No one in their right mind would give Clemens a 5-year deal at his age, especially since he's always "contemplating" retirement.

Lets be fair, the Astros extended Bagwell, knowing he was on the verge of physically falling apart.  Organizations annually make stupid signings.  While a "5-year deal" might be pushing it, a multi-year contract is plenty reasonable.  Look at all the pitchers who have never pitched a full season who get multi-year contracts.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Lets be fair, the Astros extended Bagwell, knowing he was on the verge of physically falling apart.

Nothing to do with Clemens.

Look at all the pitchers who have never pitched a full season who get multi-year contracts.

Nothing to do with Clemens.

by Ryan on May 7, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
No, he can do these things because he's Roger Clemens. Other players are just as family-oriented, but can't dictate those kind of terms because they aren't as good.

I'm sure Roger being Roger plays a part in this, but players have a lot more leverage these days then you give them credit for.  I'm certain Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Mussina and Pettitte could take a pay cut to get certain clauses in their contracts that would be better for their family.

I may be putting a little too much emphasis on Clemens ties with his family, but he seems to do more then anyone else who remains in the game.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
This is the last word I'm saying on the subject, so if you'd like to stick to your opinion, be my guest.

I may be putting a little too much emphasis on Clemens ties with his family, but he seems to do more then anyone else who remains in the game

Again, he can do this because he can. I'm sure most players would absolutely love to have Roger's schedule, but that doesn't make them bad parents because they have to play baseball for 7-8 months a year.

by Ryan on May 7, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Awwww. Suddenly I feel patriotic and all.

by mcrose on May 7, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Kevin Millwood (and his 5.88 ERA) is DL-bound as well. Color me happy we're not on the hook for 3 more years of him.

by zempf on May 6, 2007 11:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I am not sure why I never figured it out before today, but I realize there was no way Clemens was going to sign with the Red Sox.  Fenway Park (actually the city of Boston) is not big enough for the egos of Clemens and Schilling.

by IndyDave on May 6, 2007 11:27 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
OK, Clemens is kind of a DB.  The season starts in April, not June.  Yadda yadda.

It's sort of similar to people being mad at A-Rod for making $252 million.  If you were him, and you could get away with it ... wouldn't you?

Still a DB.  But come on.  If I could travel when I wanted, pick my team, and pitch when I felt good and ready, all for 30 mil?  I would.  I'd still feel guilty.  I'd never watch When It Was a Game on HBO.  Bottom line is, he can get away with it.  Be mad at Boston and New York and Houston for bowing to his every demand.

In a smaller way, this whole ridiculousness with Clemens is like Bonds and steroids, in that it hangs over the last years of his career and casts him in a negative light.  Obviously the shadow over Bonds looms darker, but a lot of people will scoff when they think of Clemens and his ego and this whole laughable courting ritual that he ended his career with.  In both cases, it will sometimes make the most recent generation overlook one important fact:  He was really, really good at what he did.

by nickjs21 on May 6, 2007 11:44 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
If I could travel when I wanted, pick my team, and pitch when I felt good and ready, all for 30 mil?  I would.

that all sounds good, but if you could pick your team, why would you pick the Yankees and not the team that's in your home state, has your kid in its farm system, and is in the NL Central?

you'd have to have the heart of a true Yankee to make that choice. which would make you completely despicable.

by nctribefan on May 7, 2007 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Clemens was born in Dayton, Ohio.  Is his home team the Reds?

by Scott @ Let's Go Tribe! on May 7, 2007 4:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
My guess is that the Astros wouldn't pay him $4.5M a month.  It's all about the money, not Yankees or home team or championships.  It's the cash.
Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 7, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
So the guy is 45 years old and feels as if his body can not go through 200+ innings of regular season pitching, along with 40-60 spring training innings.  So he could either sign in December, do all the same things, but miss out on seeing his son play spring training baseball AND only pitch until the middle of August anyways OR he can sign now and pitch around 100 fewer total innings, get to see his son play and all that good stuff that goes along with being a "Dad".
Again, he knows his limitations and knows what is important to him.  If those two characteristics make him a "douchebag", I would hate to see what that makes a drunk driving pitcher who leaves a wife and children behind...A "good guy"?

As for the "laughable courting issue", Roger continually says that this is his last season.  I'm certain when you retire, if someone chases you down and says, "work for 40 days and heres a sum of money that will allow for your kids kids to be able to follow their dreams" you would say, "no thanks, I mean, I love baseball and it is only 40 days, but..."

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Well, I think we're actually agreeing in different words here.  I did say I would do the same thing, and I don't blame him at all.  The "laughable courting issue" was more of a paraphrase over how this event gets looked at and could overshadow his legacy of being a really good pitcher.

by nickjs21 on May 7, 2007 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Off-topic, but if you're referring to Hancock as the drunk-driving pitcher, I believe he was single.

by nickjs21 on May 7, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
May the injury bug that has befallen Yankee pitching spread to him.  I hope he gets smacked around the yard alot.  My big question is when does he quit if they arent going to make the post season?  
Upstate NY Tribe fan

by tribe fan in Rochester on May 7, 2007 9:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
No no, he doesn't quit, he "retires."

by zempf on May 7, 2007 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Roger Clemens on retirement:

"I loved it.  It was much better than 'Cats.'  I'm going to do it again and again and again."

Unofficial Andy Marte and Joe Borowski Apologist. My fantasy team - Swindon SpecOps 27.

by woodsmeister on May 7, 2007 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I don't know...it's all relative.  I don't want to put his actions on a Boozer level.  I don't fault a guy for taking the money.  (All though I don't know what this 40 days is about.  I mean, he's good, but he's going to have to be in pitching shape for 5 months.  Obviously, the money is ridiculous either way).

It just goes against the traditional idea of team, working out together the whole year, for a common goal.  That is the distasteful part.  I guess he will still help the team.  Probably.  Everyone has to hit the wall sometime.  I don't know if he's done anything wrong, but I'm cheering against him.

by dgcambridge on May 7, 2007 10:30 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Here is my take. I hate the Yankees. Period. I want Clemens and the rest of the roid popping Yankees to fail miserably.

by oxforddave on May 7, 2007 10:33 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
This conversation is both interesting and fascinating !

cue responses telling me no one forced me to read it.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 10:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Look, professional sports has never been about the team.  I think one of the best lines ever in a sports movie was when John Matusack's character in "Semi-Tough" said to one of the suits, "every time I say it's a game you tell me it's a business and every time I say it's a business you tell me it's a game".  Pre-Lou Brock the players were treated like chattel.  Now the players are gaining the upper hand.  Only the fans think it's still a game, the owners and the players, like the aforementioned Mr. Clemens, know it's a business.  Roger made the best business deal he could.  Wouldn't you?
Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 7, 2007 10:39 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Exactly. I'm not begrudging the guy his right to make a choice like that, particularly given that he's not the first (and most certainly not the last) to jump at the biggest check offered to him. I just get pissed at anyone who frames it as anything but that.

I still think he's a dick, though, and will cheer every time his ERA goes up.

by zempf on May 7, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I still think he's a dick, though, and will cheer every time his ERA goes up.

I'm just curious as to WHY you think he is a dick?

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
He's not the only one who thinks he's a dick.

by exileincincy on May 7, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
My completely unscientific reasoning for thinking Clemens is a dick: my mother has a crush on him, and my mother is ridiculously fond of dudes who turn out to be dicks.

by AngG on May 7, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Irrational hatred is part of being a sports fan -- it's the same reason I hate the White Sox or George Steinbrenner or that Russian dude in Rocky IV. Sports fandom is all about having villains & to me, Roger Clemens is a villain, simple as that. Is it magnified cause he's a Yankee? Sure. Would I swallow my pride & root for him anyway if he were an Indian? Of course, though I wouldn't like it.

by zempf on May 7, 2007 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Oh wow...My mistake!!!

Sorry, I thought everyone here ACTUALLY thought he was a "douchebag" or a "dick".  Not just random fan-player hatred...Thats entirely different.

As for your last comment, there are multiple players in multiple sports that if they arrived and played for my favourite franchise, I personally would not root for.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Well said.  That's a great quote.

The only difference I can see here is that this isn't a clean cut situation of player's needs versus team's.  He's not being asked to play on the cheap. I just think its reasonable for him to be on the same schedule, the same commitment, as his teammates.  You're right that we, the fans, greatly overestimate the meaning of team.  But I think most players like to think that respect for their teammates means something.

by dgcambridge on May 7, 2007 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Sigh.

I didn't want to get into this, I didn't.

The problem with dichotomizing sports along the "business/game" line and then painting fans as naive fawns wandering through a woodland of moneythirsty owners and players is that these owners and players turn around and emphasize this concept of "team" until my ears bleed. In fact, the one's who we defend most often with "They know it's a business-it's not their fault we still want it to be a game" tend to be those who rely on those "team cliches" most heavily.

Case in point: Roger Clemens. Quotes Roger used yesterday:

"I can tell you it's a privilege to be back [in New York]"

"Make no mistake about it, I've come back to do what they only know how to do here with the Yankees, and that's win a championship," Clemens said. "Anything else is a failure, and I know that."

"It feels like coming back home," Clemens said. "You feel like you're welcomed and you know what it's all about."

"To play with one of the best clutch hitters I've ever played with, in Derek Jeter, and to hand the ball to the best reliever in baseball."

All of these quotes rather obviously deal with the concept of the Yankees as a unique team and this as a unique situation. When you use words like "home" to refer to a place that is not in fact your home, and when you use words like "only" to refer to an organization that hasn't won a championship since 2000, you're implying there's a second kind of force at work here, one that involves a particular team, players, and place-all things that point towards baseball as a 'game' not a 'business.'

It's this duplicity that makes Roger Clemens a douche. Like most people here, I don't have any problem with Clemens taking the money-I don't think it shows that he's a good father nor do I think it shows that he's hell-bound.

But to create a sideshow around yourself for months, ransom yourself to the highest bidder and then turn around and spout the same tired bullshit about how special a place New York is, well, that makes you a tremendous douche.

Just say you're glad to be there, ready to pitch, and move on. Let us see, through your lack of quotes, that this is largely a business decision, that you're happy to be able to play the game you enjoy and make a ton of money.

But don't make this about anything other than that. It's disrespectful to anybody who still wants this to be a game and it's incredibly, incredibly disrespectful to fans of the Red Sox and the Astros. What, they're teams can't "win championships"? Even though they've both been closer than the Yankees in the last few years? You chose NYY because they ponyed up and the situation fit, not because it's a magical land where pennants rain from the sky.

And, if you actually chose NYY because you believe all that bullshit you and everyone else spouts about the Yankee Way, then you're some douche level above "Tremendous Douche", whatever comes next.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
andrew, have i told you you're my favorite?

by AngG on May 7, 2007 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Andrew....you're screwed man.  She just hit you with the "AngG Curse".  Just ask K-brera how that works out....

by Nat on May 7, 2007 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
That's very nice of you. I can already feel my slider flattening out. I'm now going to give up 3 earned.

No, seriously, thanks. Very kind.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Two issues:

1. I don't have any problem with Clemens taking the money-I don't think it shows that he's a good father nor do I think it shows that he's hell-bound.

It wasn't about the money that made him a perceived "good father", rather the fact that he was willing to sacrifice money and personal accolades in order to spend time with his son.  Him signing a contract that allows for him to spend more time at home then in the clubhouse.  That, is to me, what separates him from other athletes in the big picture.  And really, while it is a business, it is still, a "game".  When these guys get their cup of coffee, they are for the most part, going to have to join the "real world" and family is what will tie it altogether.

2. But to create a sideshow around yourself for months, ransom yourself to the highest bidder and then turn around and spout the same tired bullshit about how special a place New York is, well, that makes you a tremendous douche.

I have a tough time pinning the blame on him for this "sideshow".  I suppose we can say today that his retirements were a joke, but we really don't know.  I still think, that without the WBC Roger retires after the 2005 season and we never hear from him again - aside from the occasional knock on the door.
To me, his in and out of baseball, is no different from Sammy Sosa or Juan Gonzalez trying to make a comeback.  While he gets more publicity, I don't feel Roger can be blamed for that.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I don't really disagree with any of that. But I think you're blowing this business about being a "family man" way out of proportion. If he wanted to, he could've quit playing baseball the first time and never missed another second with his children. I don't fault him for feeling a tremendous pull to play professional sports for obscene amounts of money but if you're equating "Finding ways to spend time with sons" to "Being a good father", then he could've found a whole bunch of time by just retiring for real.

On the second point, I'm probably never going to have the opportunity to retire at the peak of my abilities, in anything (except for Pog, which I walked away from a champ). So, I can't speak to how hard it is to stay away.

But, at some point over the last 5 years, he had to realize he wasn't going to stay retired all these times. So stop saying you're retired, stop giving out quotes about "70% I'm coming back", and just keep your mouth shut and make a choice when you want to. He feeds the monster in a lot of ways-he gives soundbites, he meets publicly with Steinbrenner in Florida, and he keeps saying he's retiring every year.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
To play with one of the best clutch hitters I've ever played with, in Derek Jeter

Ew, he said that?  Would anyone buy that as a reason for choosing New York over another city?  Clutch-ness?

by nickjs21 on May 7, 2007 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
The Rivera quote is even more laughable to me at this point.

Rivera is 37 years old, people. He's certainly turned around in the past but at some point it becomes a bad bet.

Plus, I don't think it really makes any sense to paint him as significantly better than a handful of other relievers (K-Rod, BJ Ryan, etc).

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Ha, BJ Ryan!
Probably one of my favourite Blue Jays moments is when BJ rushes to the mound with the ensuing "BJ-BJ-BJ" chants...It makes me laugh.

But I get your point, although if I had a ninth inning, one run lead in the playoffs, I'm thinking Mo is probably the guy we all go with, no matter HOW he performs this season.  I think thats the point Roger was making.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
If he has an ERA over 8 all year, you still want him as your postseason closer?

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Yes!  In fact, give him a 20ERA in the regular season with 10 blown saves, and hes still the guy I want to have out there in a tight situation during the playoffs.

KRod is a close second, but with only 3 career playoff saves - 1 in the CS - I prefer the experience of Mo to go out there and get the ever important playoff victory.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
You're right.  The quotes/bullshit are confusing.  Yep, it makes New York sound like the epicenter of baseball and baseball championships.  All these things stick in my craw too.  

And I was hesitant to bring this up but, like you I can't resist.  I have known (had a beer with, sat down and talked, they knew my name and I knew theirs) three professional baseball players in my life.  One is Pete O'Brien, he is the brother in law of one of the engineers I worked with.  One is Cal Ripken - my best friend used to date his sister Ellie.  And Roger Clemens - he used to work out in the gym I belonged to in Houston - the Memorial Athletic Club.  Roger would go there twice a week to play basketball with his old high school/college buddies and then spend 30-40 minutes on the Versa-Climber - the gadget the Russian villain used in Rocky (?).  

This is what I know about Roger Clemens: he's a regular guy.  He'd sit down in the lounge with the rest of the guys and exchange small talk.  He'd have a beer with us afterward.  Once when I was having lunch with some other engineers in a little Mexican restaurant, Roger saw me, came by and said hi and chatted for 3-5 minutes.  My colleagues were dumbstruck.  All in all in my experience he's not the guy you read about and he's not the douche bag depicted in this discussion.  He's just another guy like you and me who happens to be able to locate a 90mph fastball with movement.  You guys would love to have a beer with him.  And yeah, he loves his kids.  I don't think I've ever seen outside the gym without his wife or children with him.  He's a good guy.

I believe he still has a passion for baseball.  I think he would still like to play the game with the same enthusiasm as he did when he was pitching at Katy High.  So the thought of team and team mates are still part of his baseball equation.  But he also knows that people make a awful lot of money from this game/business.  And he doesn't want to chumped.  That's what I'm getting at with the business/game quote.  The "owners" had been playing the players for almost a century until they got some leverage.  Now Roger's probably made over a $150M in the course of his career.  George Steinbrenner's made maybe $2B, and I don't think anybody's ever paid a nickel to see him pitch, hit or field.  That's the business part.  The time spent in the off season with his old teammates is the game part.  When you saw these guys together you could sense the camaraderie - they had gone to war together and forged a bond.  None of these guys had anywhere near the success Roger has had in sports but, when they were together they were equals.  Nobody, not even the great Roger Clemens, was more equal than anybody else.

What I was trying to say is: the professional has to compartmentalize his feelings.  One is the sense of sport - play - camaraderie from the business piece.  For too long his predecessors have been taken advantage of and made millions for sharp business men while he saw only a tiny percentage.  The business guys had used the player's sense of sport to flim-flam them into taking only a tiny piece.  Those days are gone.  I believe that Roger loves those guys he's played with be they Red Sox, Blue Jays or Yankees.  I also know that he won't be flim flam'ed.  He's just gonna do something he loves - the game and make the most money he can - the business.  I don't blame him.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 7, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Yeah, well Pete O'Brien is a douchebag too.

KIDDING!

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
That's a great insider take. Interesting stuff.

Again, I don't blame Roger for taking the money. I just blame him for portraying it as anything else. I understand he's probably being handled a lot by the PR people, etc. If you play in New York there's probably a lot of pressure to give quotes like he did, and it's probably easy to get caught up in it. Maybe Roger would prefer to stay humble and not have said the things he said.

But, he did say those things and, to me, they're really duplicitous.

Your personal experience does make me realize that we probably shouldn't call these guys douches, considering we'll never meet any of them except in exceptional cases like yours. But, that's the world we live in, so I won't really apologize for my place in it.

Any good Cal Ripken stories?

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Actually Ripken being brought up provides a great example of a guy who, placed in the same situation, would assuredly not be the subject of a conversation like this one.

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
You should read a Ripken autobiography...His "ironman" award cost the O's multiple games, as he played in upwards of 20 games a season that he had no business of being in towards the end of his career.  In one of the books I read, there were times where he would go and change the lineup card to put his name in.

So be careful with how you label a player based on what the media feeds you.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I will be careful.  Thank you very much for the advice.

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Your personal experience does make me realize that we probably shouldn't call these guys douches, considering we'll never meet any of them except in exceptional cases like yours. But, that's the world we live in, so I won't really apologize for my place in it.

But his story, and this quote are what reinforce what I was saying.  Few and far between is the person that will say, "no" to money under any circumstance.  Few and far between is the man who will put his family "first".  While the surrounding effects are garbage, as mauichuck stated, that is the business portion.  I'm certain a lot of our parents have done things in their professional lives that they wouldn't suggest we do, likewise, us with out children.

But the fact STILL remains that the guy did put his family and friends at the forefront of the discussion.  That is something that is rare in the real world, and even more rare in the sports world.  And it is that reason alone that bothered me with the "douchebag" and "self love" labels.  Even though he may be a hated professional athlete, to me, there are much worse athletes out there to call "douches" - such as a player who "made it rain".

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Again, the family man line is wildly overstated. If you equate time with family to being a good family man, why doesn't he retire? He's far past the normal point in both money earned and age. Are other players who've walked away while they could still demand high salaries and play at a high level better family men than Clemens?

Who knows, because that's not a valid way to evaluate how much someone values family.  

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
How many of those players walked away from nearly $20M with only participating in around 40 days of work?  I would wager NONE!  So it is ridiculous to state "why doesn't he retire", because the same then can be said about any player who has made enough money to support their family...

Again, his commitment to family and friends is what makes him NOT a douchebag in my opinion.  A player who "makes it rain" or continually tries to show up their opponents - see Prince Fielder anytime he scores a run he feels is important - is a douchebag!

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I don't have any clue as to how you perceive he's putting his "family first" in these negotiations. I had assumed it was because he was taking time off, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying.

You're giving him some kind of pass because the dollar total is so high, which I don't really mind. But you can't give him that pass then also say he's putting his family first. If he takes all that money to spend like 5 months in New York, and you're arguing that spending time with one's family = being a good family man, then that means he's chosen not to prioritize his family.

Again, I don't agree with any of that logic but as near as I can tell that's what you're saying.

Stop bringing up Pac-Man Jones. It's not relevant and is completely ignorant of the socio-economic factors at work. Jones is a troubled, troubled individual from a troubled, troubled background. He's dangerous and probably doesn't deserve 'pity' but he's also in no way comparable to what people are characterizing here as a DB.

And Roger Clemens has done things every bit as disrespectful on a baseball field as what Fielder did.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
'In my book, Roger Clemens is an all around stand-up guy'

-Mike Piazza

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Corrections to your entire arguement:
  1. He is not signing a contract beginning on opening day, and thus missed spring training, pitchers/catchers reporting date.  About two and a half EXTRA "family time".
  2. It is assumed his contract is similar in structure to his Houston contract.  That said, he has the ability to be there on game day and leave shortly thereafter.

So, you missed HUGE chunks of what is going on.  

As for PacMan Jones, I don't care WHERE he came from, the fact is, he hasn't changed!  To ME, THAT is a DOUCHEBAG!  That would be like you getting a speeding ticket and then speeding away from the police officer who pulled you over.  Punishments, fines, etc are meant to "teach a lesson", apparently PacMan did not learn anything from his multiple run-ins with the law and is thus a DOUCHE!  He deserves NO pity as he has been given more then any other man in his socio-economic upbringing could have EVER thought possible!

As for Fielder, yesterday was the forth or fifth time I've seen him do that THIS SEASON alone!

You are missing my point, and I quit trying to explain it to you.  We see things on a different level so we'll have to agree to disagree.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I imagine you find something funny about that...Glad to hear you have nothing intelligent or meaningful to bring to the conversation.
Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Actually, yeah I got a couple of interesting insigts if you're serious.  I imagine that they'd be so off topic that I'd get castized by Ryan.  And oh yeah I also know Javier Lopez.  His sister Janice was my friends administrative assistant.  She got me tickets for the WS vs Atlanta.  Another good story.
Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 7, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
You're like the Kevin Bacon of baseball.

I say, if they're good stories, throw em out there - sounds like the good kind of off topic...

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Extremely well said. I couldn't possibly add anything to the way I feel about this.
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on May 7, 2007 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
The two things that mystify me the most about this signing stem from two reasons that I thought I had read for why he was waiting to sign a contract:

  1.  He supposedly wanted to sign with a team that had the most chance to win the World Series.

  2.  He tires out before the end of the season and wasn't as effective in the stretch run.

So if those reasons were true, why did he sign with the Yankees?  

I think it's hard to argue that the Yankees have the best chance of winning the WS.  Obviously, I'm not saying they have no chance, but you certainly can't say they have the best chance.  Secondly, the espn article (here) says he signed with the Yankees because both the Red Sox and Astros wanted him to wait until the end of June to begin.  Therefore, he is more likely to burn out in the postseason, which goes against my understanding of why he was waiting to sign a contract.

It just seems like the signing goes against the two main reasons he was waiting, and therefore, the reasons would have to be something else (money, ego, friends, etc).

by Nat on May 7, 2007 11:13 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
See my post above, Nat. Would you rather have fame in Houston, Boston, or New York. That talk about the WS is garbage. Money and fame, baby. Everyone wants it.

by BoDiaz1974 on May 7, 2007 11:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I don't think "Mauer to DL" had any chance of being discussed in the same thread as Roger Clemens.  Poor guy.

by nickjs21 on May 7, 2007 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Right. Why would Cleveland fans have any interest in an injury to the key player on a divisional rival?
But next week someone will drop a complaint about excess media attention on NY teams.

by Rochester on May 7, 2007 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I know its' of no consequence, but anyone know Koby Clemens' numbers were coming out of high school?

Here's his current line:

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=488784

Not exactly ripping it up. Guess I'm wondering if the 'Stros would have drafted him had Roger not been pitching for them. Perhaps part of his contract?

by BoDiaz1974 on May 7, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
When they drafted him, a lot of talk had to do with it being a ploy to try and keep Roger in town for a little bit longer.  Given last years contract, I think they would repeat that pick year in and year out.

It seemed as if most saw Koby as a later pick then he was selected.

I imagine had his name been Koby Myers from Cleveland, Ohio, he either would have went undrafted, or into one of those incredibly late rounds in the draft.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Not mentioned yet, I believe. Assuming my math is right.

Clemens' 2007 Salary: $28M (Prorated)
Idians SIX man rotation 2007 Salary: $27.615M

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 12:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
There is only one thing that makes a person hold teams hostage like Clemens does and it isn't being a "family man." It is nothing but pure ego. If Clemens were truly interested in just pitching for a team why not sign in the spring and stay south until June? Because it doesn't create a media frenzy around you. Why not just sign from your home with your family you love so much rather than ditch them to fly halfway across the country to appear, in a scheme of your own planning, in NY? Same reason.

Trying to paint this guy as some family man who just happens to be outrageously talented is ludicrous. I understand taking the money when it is there but this garbage about it giving his son a chance to pursue his dreams is garbage. The family has more money right now than any of us can imagine. This is a media circus that Roger plays right into. Anything about him being a great father because he takes the spring off to jerk teams around is just stupid. This is another case of someone holding a market hostage. I blame the GM's just as much.

If we are going to talk about great fathers I am sure there are a lot of us on here who can think of someone more qualified than Roger Clemens. How many of us had a dad who worked 70-80hr weeks to make sure we had enough to eat? Or who came home after a 12hr day and played baseball in the backyard? Or who worked back to back shifts in order to have time off to make it to a basketball game? Don't feed me some media trash about how he is a great father because the poor guy only gets to spend half of the year with his family, free and clear of any obligation, and then expects prima donna treatment for the 4 months he can be troubled to work.

And yes, this makes me mad.

Founding member of DrBradyQuinn's Medicine Ladies.

by Brad D on May 7, 2007 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
And Buster Olney is the one reporting that Clemens arranged the public spectacle of his signing.
Founding member of DrBradyQuinn's Medicine Ladies.

by Brad D on May 7, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
does that qualify as 'chasing down the microphone'?

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
It is nothing but pure ego. If Clemens were truly interested in just pitching for a team why not sign in the spring and stay south until June?

I would imagine that isn't allowed by league rules.  I suppose he could go on some sort of "gentlemans" agreement...Also, he seems to want to go and "help out".  Had the Yankees been healthy, I imagine he signs with Houston.  But his friends needed him, so he signed there.

As for your comments about fathers, you are in the minority - atleast statistically.  The majority of kids grow up in homes missing atleast one parent - studies have not shown whether or not this is absolutely negative, to soon to tell - or have atleast one parent that is rarely present, abusive or following some other form of deviant "parenting" behaviour.  While you may like to think that you are the majority, statistics show, you and I are not, and instead, the single parent home is the most common form of household in America.  Infact, America has changed its definition of "the family" in recent years to accomodate the specific trend.  They are projecting that within the next 10 years, under a third of children will belong to a household that has more then one adult - not even "parent" present.  Currently, the figure stands at just over half.
So get "angry" if you like, but I think you should spend more time being angry with the American community, then towards a pitcher who doesn't want to spend February to November in a ballpark x miles away from his family.

Anything about him being a great father because he takes the spring off to jerk teams around is just stupid.

Who are you to say he is "jerking teams around"?  To me, he seems truly disinterested with spending all that time away from his family.  THAT is what I notice.  Whether or not you think it is some secret mission of his to drive up his cost a couple million dollars, is YOUR agenda - but as you mentioned, the guy has more money then needed, so its not like he NEEDS to do this, please use some common sense.

Again, a MUCH more intelligent economic decision, would be for him to sign a multi-year contract as the reality is, he doesn't know when his body is going to break down.  But given this isn't about the money or statistcal fame, he is CLEARLY not "jerking teams around".

I'd love to see how all of you would treat this situation.  I'd love to see you put a clause in your contract that would allow for you to spend as much time with your family as possible.
To me, he does things for his family, to you he does things for this imaginary ego that apparently needs padded.

Governor's Cup in '07!

by Brandini on May 7, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Aw, how noble of poor Roger to leave his supposedly important family to ride to the aid of his friends. I wonder if he flew the jet plane or took his white stallion instead?

As for the "statistic" about children growing up in one parent homes that is just completely wrong. According to the US Dept. of Health and Human Services only 31% of families with children are single parent. I have no idea where you get your statistics but I am going to go ahead and believe the official one. So no, I am not going to get angry at the American community.

What do you consider jerking a team around? Announcing your retirement? Coming back once? What about coming back twice? What about announcing your retirement again? Maybe it is waiting to see who needs you the most and signing the largest contract? You claim that he does things for his family. I assume that means he will play for Houston this year. No, he is in New York, chasing the almighty dollar.

You say does things out of some altruistic fairy tale dad complex, the facts suggest he does what the money or ego dictates.

Founding member of DrBradyQuinn's Medicine Ladies.

by Brad D on May 7, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Jay, you always throw the best threads!


by afh4 on May 7, 2007 2:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I just want to clarify, I never said he was a douche.  I said he was an all-time great douchebag.

by Jay on May 7, 2007 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
If I could somehow add a second lollipop to that basset hounds mouth, I would, Jay. Believe me, I would.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Do you bring in Jason Davis in the blowout?

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 3:21 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Hahahah. These two posts combine for Post of the Week.

by afh4 on May 7, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I knew I had to think outside the box to get nominated.  the competition is tough these days!

by Brick. on May 7, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
If and when Jason Davis is picked up by the Yankees, will they let him in the press box to deliver a greeting to the fans?

by homelytourist on May 7, 2007 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
This has been one of the more bizarre threads on this site.  I don't see anything about whether Clemens will really be able to live up to his contract?  Much debate over whether he is a douchebag or an exemplary father, but not much about what he will bring to the Yankees.

Myself?  I don't see it.  It's been several years since he pitched in NY and his ERA was around 4.00.   Houston - and the NL - is so very pitcher friendly that I expect his ERA will be at least 4.50 this season.  That's serviceable and will help the putrid Yankees staff, but not worth $26 million the Yankees are spending.

It will make the fall of the Yankees that much sweeter, though.

by Spidey on May 7, 2007 7:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
There's speculation that his first start--were it to be in early June--could be against the Red Sox in Fenway.  I don't think I'd be able to take the television buildup.  

by nickjs21 on May 7, 2007 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
The Yankees signed a pitcher. Swell. So that should really save the bullpen, right? Well, no, he averaged fewer than 6 innings a start last season. Well, he'll really keep the runs down, right? I doubt it; he hasn't faced lineups this tough in years.

This is the Yankees doing what the Yankees always do, which is compensate for mistakes (Dice-K) with showmanship and financial werewithal. It remains abhorrent to everything I love about baseball.

How big of a chump are you if you're a Yanks fan and you're cheering? This guy SCREWED you when he left, SCREWED you by resigning after retirement, and SCREWED you again by bottling your discontent and selling it back to you at seven figures per start. <APPLAUSE>

by fleerdon on May 7, 2007 10:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
This has been one of the more bizarre threads on this site.

Keep reading, you'll find more.

by Ryan on May 7, 2007 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Okay, now a (slightly) serious clarification.

I don't know Clemens personally, and I don't judge him personally.  I know him and judge him only as a public figure, based on the public elements of his life: the public decisions he's made, his public statements, and the names of his sons.

On the public decisions:  The Yankees.  Douchebag.  Self-aggrandizing.  Wants to be the savior, to cap his career endlessly with god-like redemptive moments.  How sad that he just doesn't realize, his career doesn't need any dramatic capping.  Everyone who isn't a Yankees fan would have rather seen him finish his career with one of his true hometown teams, rather than merely the team that writes the biggest checks and provides the most run support.

It's sad when any player of great stature feels he has to play for the Yankees, so as to be handed postseason berths on a silver platter rather than competing for them like the rest.  Johnson, Giambi, A-Rod, Matsui, Clemens -- total douchebags, every last one of them.  Each one diminished himself by insisting that he must only play for the Yankees.

On the public statements:  The Yankees.  Douchebag.  See Andrew's remarks, can't say it any better.  I'll add only that anyone who makes public statements to the effect that the Yankees are (present tense) part of the greatness of the game (present tense) is damaging the game.  The Yankees are most assuredly a major corrosive and corrupt element in the game today.

On the names of his sons:  K, K, K and K.  Total douchebag.

Brandini, I'm sorry, the good-father thing makes no sense to me.  The money in this deal is not going to help Clemens' kids.  Anyone who knows anything about parenting knows that if you have $10 million in the bank (and Clemens has much more than that), no amount of additional money will make your family any happier.

Clemens did not have to make any concessions in his contract in order to get his special scheduling demands -- unlike in 2005, when he was playing at an outrageous discount.  I respected that deal, because his service as an Astro really was a gift in that context.  But in this deal, he's just asking his team (and teammates) to be his bitch, and they're acquiescing.  He has the power, and he's using it, but that doesn't make it right.

So to sum up:  Roger Clemens is an all-time great douchebag.

by Jay on May 7, 2007 9:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Well said. I was going for the same thing but I was unable to swallow back the derisiveness.
Founding member of DrBradyQuinn's Medicine Ladies.

by Brad D on May 7, 2007 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I have to admit that I'm in violent agreement with all of your points - except maybe the kid's names - that goes a little too far.  Like you I see the Yankees as a cancer on the game.  They've distorted the economics and relative team competition to the breaking point.  And as I've said before, thank God Cashman's an idiot otherwise the Yankees would win the WS every year.  Just think $20M plus for, at most, maybe 130 innings and 14 wins.  

But let me add one more judgment here.  As a guy that you'd like to play a little racketball with and sit down and have a beer afterward, Roger Clemens is the equal of any of the guys on this website.  

It's interesting to me how a regular guy can be vilified so energetically.  American professional sports are truly a mystery to me.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 8, 2007 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Not just agreement, violent agreement.  I strenuously concur with your violent agreement.
Wait a minute, I have a fan club? COOL!

by drerikbrady on May 8, 2007 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
As a guy that you'd like to play a little racketball with and sit down and have a beer afterward, Roger Clemens is the equal of any of the guys on this website.

I doubt I would survive the game, but I can compete with anyone in the have-a-beer-afterward category.  I think possibly you're giving him bonus points for being famous, but then again, that's probably appropriate.

As to your real point, I don't agree with all of my friends' professional decisions either, and my friends say stupid things almost as often as I do, and we probably all have friends who have chosen ridiculous and/or self-aggrandiziing names for their kids.

So it's not out of the question that I would find Clemens to be a great guy on a personal level, if he were a friend of mine.  But he's not a friend of mine, so unfortunately, I know him only in his public guise, i.e., all-time great douchebag.

Which is a great loss for both of us.

by Jay on May 8, 2007 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
You have not seen me play racquetball or drink beer, clearly.

by afh4 on May 8, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
From an actual game standpoint, why not reintroduce Clemens through the bullpen?  I imagine it would take less time for him to get ready for it (just a little, anyway).  He'll help a bullpen that needs it.  He'll get to face dangerous lineups he didn't have to face last time out in small bursts using only his best pitches.  Then they work him into the rotation.

by nickjs21 on May 8, 2007 8:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I don't believe Clemens ego would allow such a thing.
Wait a minute, I have a fan club? COOL!

by drerikbrady on May 8, 2007 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Personally, I think Clemens is a media whore (as has been pointed out above). And although his family, may have some motivation for him (in the contract he got), what galls me most about his actions, is the free pass he gets on everything he's ever done.

He's a proven headhunter, and gets glory from that. If CC or Johan did that, they would be vilified by the media and fans.

He throws a broken bat at Piazza (which could have easily maimed him), and that is just Roger being Roger.

He's a greedy SOB. The Yankees offerred him a prorated contract of $25.5M. His agent went back and asked for $28M. If any other player did that, the lambasting that player would have received would be unreal.

I'll throw Bonds' name out there. His kid is still in middle or high school. If/when he negotiated his deal with the Giants this offseason, he said, he needed until May 1st so he could watch the conclusion of his son's high school baseball games and want a $20M prorated deal, the screaming about him would have reached Alpha Centauri.

Not to mention the hush hush nature of Clemen's connection to steroids. Is there any proof? Not really, but I do believe we should scrutinize him as much as Bonds, as well as every other player from the late 90s.

by talonk on May 8, 2007 10:19 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Regarding the steroids comment, although I do not have the numbers in front of me, my recollection is that Roger was nothing more than an average pitcher (with a roughly .500 record) from the period of his early to mid thirties - after an admittedly dominant beginning of his career.  

It is unusual, indeed, for a pitcher to be dominant for about a decade (twenties) - be decidely average for a few years (early to mid thirties) - and then begin to pitch better than almost all (if not all) of his fellow pitchers for the following decade, when practically all pitchers demonstrate some sort of decline.  

Just a passing thought . . . .

by mplswahoo on May 8, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Ehhh, I don't know if you're going to get the kinds of peaks and valleys you're looking for to support that kind of theory:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero02.shtml

Roger's had a weird career but he's never been truly mediocre for more than a season or two at a time.

by afh4 on May 8, 2007 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Well, certainly, it's up for debate, but I'm thinking 1993-1996, Clemens was ages 30-33, and compiled a combined 40-39 record, before going 21-7 for Toronto in 1997, and reinvigorating his career.  That's the "valley" I'm thinking of.  

I thought it was intriguing, at minimum, and seemingly a large enough sample to make some definite observations about that stretch.

by mplswahoo on May 8, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
To play my own devil's advocate, Clemens ERA has been decent and fairly consistent throughout his career, but the W/L record (for what it's worth) is noteworthy during that stretch.

by mplswahoo on May 8, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
That's not much of a leg to stand on.  W-L records, while seemingly absolutely the number one consideration for Cy Young balloting, don't carry much beyond that.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 8, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Sorry, I didn't realize W/L is what you were after. That does exist but, like Erik, I don't really put any stock in it.

by afh4 on May 8, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Hmmm, talk radio here in Boston has a different take on Clemens resurgence in Toronto.  Basically, he's pure evil.  I offer this only for its entertainment value.

by dgcambridge on May 8, 2007 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Oy, you just hit two of my hot buttons.  One, I guess I am now the official Roger Clemens apologist and two this snide innuendo that whenever an athlete improves his performance it must be hormonal.  You've got all I'm gonna say about Mr. Clemens character.  A little more personal background.  I played high school and Div 1-A football, but my true love is baseball.  I'm just a better football player than baseball player.  I've spent a lot of time in gyms with guys who lift heavy weights, some of which, I suspect and in some cases I know, used steroids.  And yeah, a lot of them go from looking like Barry Bonds ca. 1990 to Barry Bonds ca 2004.  However, none of them go from Clements 1985 to Clemens 2005.  So, for my money his physiognomy change is not typical of an anabolic steroid abuser - more like a guy going from 25 to 37.  

 The period when I knew Roger was at the end of his Red Sox tenure.  I'd see him in the gym in the off-season maybe 10-12 times over a period of 8-10 weeks.  He never did any weight work - but I'm sure he could have lifted weights at home or some other gym - but I never saw it.  When I saw him he was heavy into endurance and leg work.  Lots of cardio stuff - he'd get on that Versa-Climber gadget for 30-40 minutes and leave a puddle of sweat underneath it.  He just wasn't doing anything that I ever saw that I associates with steroids.  Also I can tell you that he was really pissed about the quotes from Dan Douqette.  I am sure that he was motivated to prove him wrong.  Maybe he was so motivated that he decided to use anabolic steroids - I don't know.  I do know that he was and probably still is one of the hardest working guys I've ever seen in a gym - and this was in the off-season.   My guess is that Douquette lit a fire under his ass and motivated him more than anything else.  I just don't see the steroid thing - although, to be truthful, Betancourt does fit the profile either.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 8, 2007 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Not to nitpick, but if he was going to do steroids, would he shoot them up right there in the gym next to you? I doubt it. He would more likely do them during his personal workouts at home.

Like I said earlier, there is no proof he did them. Look at Nolan Ryan, he was in great shape throughout his career too. Clemens name was leaked during the Grimsley arrest, but not pursued.

What I can't stand is how no one has ever really looked into the possibility that it may have occurred. Everyone is so hot to jump all over Bonds. But since Clemens is a "good guy" - which I strongly disagree with, anyone who headhunted like him is not a "nice guy" - he gets a free pass. Not to mention he played for the corporate Yankees and Red Sox, so he must be squeaky clean.

I still stipulate had Bonds played for the Yankees and not the Giants, a lot of this steroid talk would have been disappated, because he would have been "one of the good guys".

by talonk on May 8, 2007 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I agree with a lot of what you wrote.  My sense is that Clemens made up his mind, after signing with the Blue Jays, that he wasn't going to take his ability to compete for granted anymore.  I think it's clear from most of his last four seasons with the Red Sox, turning 30 was not great for him.  He made the adjustment -- and whatever else we can say of Clemens, he does seem to hold himself accountable.  I think he was frustrated to have put himself in the position where Duquette could say that and not be challenged.

Re: the PED charges, I am uncomfortable with throwing them around, generally unsupported.  It has been reported that Clemens was named by Jason Grimsley, but it's never been confirmed, and that is the sum total of public evidence, or even accusations, against him.  That said, I assume he did some form of PED's, because I assume that the majority of great players did, and particularly pitchers.  I assume that any player who got fanatical about preparation and conditioning in some fashion explored PED's -- because why the hell wouldn't they?  It was the norm, or at least it wasn't in the least bit discouraged.

So I won't say he did them, or even that he probably did them.  But if I had to guess?

by Jay on May 8, 2007 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
a lot of them go from looking like Barry Bonds ca. 1990 to Barry Bonds ca 2004.  However, none of them go from Clements 1985 to Clemens 2005.

Can you expand on this?  My sense is that the changes in Bonds' physique have been overblown by the media, and they don't look any more severe to me than Jim Thome's.

by Jay on May 8, 2007 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
OK, I've got about 25 minutes before the game starts so here goes. Please forgive me if I'm too ditactic, but this is a complicated subject.
Let's start with what is a PED.  People throw the word steroid around pretty freely without regard to what it means.  There are a lot of steroids, only a few of which will greatly increase your muscle mass in a brief period.  Cholesterol is a steroid, birth control pills are steroids, vitamin D is a steroid - you get the picture.  Then there's testosterone, or antrogen or diabenol - stuff that will blow you up tout de suite.  And then there's stuff that's in between like androsteindione.  So there's a continuum of these hormones.  Some of which we know players have used like andro, before they became listed as control substances.  OK, we got a start on what hormones we're talking about.

Now you just don't take a fist full of diabenol, go to bed and wake up looking like Arnold.  You have to couple the hormone use with a pretty agressive weight program and calory intake to increase your strength.  So what commonly happens is guys do cycles of hormones coupled with heavy weight training which can lead to remarkabl strength and muscle mass gains.  But just like everything else - some guys get bigger and stronger than other guys doing the same hormone/weight program.

So I didn't see any evidence that Mr. Clemens was doing the other part of the necessary regimen to capitolize on the use of any PEDs.  In fact the work-outs I saw him do would hinder the PED effect. (high cardio/calory burning regimen).  

As to the "look", again forgive me if you know this already, there are essentially three body or somotypes: ectomorph -hips and shoulder roughly the same diameter - little body fat, endomorph - pear shaped torso, high fat to muscle ratio, and mesomorph - apple shaped torso high muscle to fat ratio.  Everybody are mixtures of these types.  Many of us will evolve from one type to another over the course of our lives.  Most of us go from ecto or meso to endo as we age.  

OK what about the Bonds thing?  If you look at him in '85 he's an ecto with some meso qualities.  Narrow through the hips, fairly wide shoulders, wirery arms, medium neck, legs more (relatively) developed than his arms.  Looks like he's gonna be mostly and ecto/meso for most of his adult life.  Now look at him in 2003.  First of all his arms are huge and well as his neck.  This guy is just big.  His body fat, as a percentage has decrease although - and I'm guessing here - he's gone from 180/190 to 225/235.  And it ain't fat.  This boy's mostly meso now.

Now look at Clemens in 1985.  More pear than apple shaped, although you can tell he's working to control the weight.  BBBBBBig lower half -big thighs, calves and butt.  Round in the middle but still has good size shoulders.  He's 6'3" maybe 6'4" weighs 200-215.  Endo with some meso tendencies.  Now look at him in 2005.  Bigger sure - 235 maybe.  But the proportions haven't change that much.  No real dramatic increase in muscularity.  Most of the weight gain looks like normal aging - at least to me.

I'll leave out all the other well know sign's of steroid use like; buffalo hump, acne, stretch marks - amd oh, yeah - don't forget crazy - like throwing the busted half of a bat at somebody.  

Now if I was gonna pick a candidate for long term PED use it would be Julio Franco. If you look at Julio when he came up he's, what - 6' maybe 160-170.  And skinny - no real muscle development - all ecto.  Look at him now.  Same height but he's 210 and all muscle.  Now maybe he did this all in the gym - I don't know.  But that's the kind of body development that screams 'roids to me.  Not Mr. Clemens.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 8, 2007 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I think I learned more from that post than from 5 years of 'roid coverage on ESPN.
Founding member of DrBradyQuinn's Medicine Ladies.

by Brad D on May 8, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
Thank you for that, that was the best and possibly only intelligent thing I have read on the subject.  Two quick caveats, only tangentially related.  One is that the period when you were acquainted with Clemens was prior to the time when it might be speculated he strated trying PEDs.  Two is that Bonds was always considered moody and unlikeable, with a chip on his shoulder.  His college teammates didn't like him any better than Jeff Kent.

by Jay on May 8, 2007 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
This should be required reading folks.  Post of the month easily.  I know a lot about the structures of steroids and what they should do to a body on a chemical basis.  But the knowledge of coupling steriods to a specific workout regimen and the body types analysis was totally lost on me until this post.  Thanks Chuck.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on May 8, 2007 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I'm blushing - thanks for the kind words and please forgive the typos/misspellings.  I should also mention that what I'm talking about is strictly muscle development.  Doctors have prescribed anabolic steroids to speed up muscle injury recovery and also to increase red blood cell concentrations.  So I can see where a pitcher might use PEDs to short his time on the DL - this maybe where Betancourt got caught - again I don't know.  Anyway the McGuire/Sosa/Bonds/Palmero thing looks like muscle mass development to me - not injury recovery.
Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on May 9, 2007 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Mauer to DL, Clemens to NY
I'm also impressed by the correct use of the French phrase tout de suite.
Unofficial Andy Marte and Joe Borowski Apologist. My fantasy team - Swindon SpecOps 27.

by woodsmeister on May 9, 2007 10:15 AM EDT reply actions  

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