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Around SBN: 2012 Budweiser Shootout Entry List Released

Blast From the Past

March 30, 2004 ... Jason Stanford wins a spot in the Indians rotation.

At the start of camp in 2004:

  • C.C. Sabathia was the staff ace at 23, with a 43-25 record in three full seasons.
  • Jason Davis, also just 23, was considered the #2 starter, having started 27 games with a 4.68 ERA the year before as a rookie.
  • Cliff Lee, a highly touted rookie at age 25, was the #3 starter, coming in with a 3.30 ERA in 11 career starts.
  • Jake Westbrook and Chad Durbin were candidates for both the rotation and bullpen.  Both started the year in the bullpen, though Westbrook of course didn't stay there very long.  He went on to lead the American League in complete games (tied with 5) and was 3rd in ERA and 7th in WHIP.
  • Jeff D'Amico and Jason Bere, both reclamation projects on minor league deals, were considered strong candidates for the rotation.  D'Amico won the #4 spot.  Bere bombed out and was still injured as it turned out.  He spent another two fruitless years trying to recover before finally retiring.
  • Jason Stanford was the last rotation candidate and was named the #5 man on March 30, an old rookie at 27.
  • The starting rotation in Buffalo was Jeremy Guthrie, Fracisco Cruceta, Kyle Denney, Jeriome Robertson and Robert Ellis.  Incredibly, that group of five contributed a mere 49.1 IP to the big league club in 2004, and not one of them ever became a significant factor on any Indians team.  Only Guthrie appeared with the Indians after that season, contributing another 25.1 IP in 2005 and 2006.
Tonight, Jason Stanford made his first major league appearance since April 15, 2004, a gem in a losing effort to the Twins, and he earned his first Win since September 26, 2003, when he threw six scoreless innings in Toronto.  He waited nearly four years for a second big-league Win.

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Re: Blast From the Past
this is the worst game recap i've read here.

fun stuff. Jeff D'Amico. Oh my.

by Brick. on Jun 15, 2007 12:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Check out that starting lineup in Stanford's last start. Alex Escobar in center, & Matt Lawton leading off!

by zempf on Jun 15, 2007 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
And a romantic might say, if Rick White hadn't grooved one to Corey Koskie on that fateful Sunday in August 2004, that ragtag group of guys might have won the division that year.

I... am not a romantic.  

by cheech99 on Jun 15, 2007 12:24 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I remember that moment distinctly. That sucked.
I punched Ichiro in the face. No lie.

by Brad D on Jun 15, 2007 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I remember having had such high hopes for Jeriome Robertson, but I can't remember why.

by Fiddlesticks on Jun 15, 2007 12:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I think it had something to do with him having something like 15 wins in Houston.  Despite an ERA around 5.00.  I'd have to check the numbers but I had that same feeling.

Didn't he come in the Willy Tavares deal?

by Scott @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jun 15, 2007 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Checked it - 15-9, 5.10 ERA.

Wow, that was just off the top of my head!

by Scott @ Let's Go Tribe! on Jun 15, 2007 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I wish I had that time machine you guys are always talking about in the game threads.  I'd like to know where Byrd, Stanford, Lee and Sowers fit in the 2009 Indians.  

At the start of this season I thought that Byrd would be outrighted, Sowers would continue his '06 type season and Lee would regain his '05 form.  And Stanford - I didn't even think about Stanford.  So far I'm 0 fer 4.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 7:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I have no idea where Stanford fits on the 2009 Indians, but I congratulate him on his big league return and hope it leads to a regular starting job somewhere. He's always been one of my sentimental favorites, for one reason, and he just put us two games up on the Tigers, for another.  Great job!

by MTF on Jun 15, 2007 7:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
So I assume Stanford probably gets another start while Westbrook makes one more minor league rehab appearance. But then what?

by zempf on Jun 15, 2007 9:01 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
That's the question.  Anything is possible if Cliff doesn't stop giving up dingers, I suppose.

by Thommy on Jun 15, 2007 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Why can't we move Lee/Stanford to a long relief role? Don't we need someone there? I don't think Mastny is the answer.

by Toxicadam on Jun 15, 2007 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I thought I had read somewhere on LGT that Stanford was out of options and would have to go through waivers if the FO wanted him back in Buffalo.  Is this correct?  I know it's just one start, but I think he may have gotten the attention of at least a couple teams who would like to pick him up on waivers.

by Pronk33 on Jun 15, 2007 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
That seems to be the case.  I don't think he'd make it through waivers, and in fact I do think we'd trade him if it came to that.

by Jay on Jun 15, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
jay, could you please get off your a$$ and do a little internet research on stanford's options status for goodness sake...

by Brick. on Jun 15, 2007 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
The PD's story today said he has no options left.  So if he doesn't get a more extended stay in Cleveland, he'll either be put through waivers or traded.

by APV on Jun 15, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
He doesn't have options left, as has been confirmed by multiple sources, and most importantly, by the Indians themselves.

The bigger question, to me at least, is whether Cliff Lee can be optioned without clearing waivers. He might have too much service time, but I don't know for sure.

by Ryan on Jun 15, 2007 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Whose to say that Lee won't experience some "tendinitis" and have to go back on the DL?

by talonk on Jun 15, 2007 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Okay, not that anybody else cares, but I have figured this out to my satisfaction.  The problem is, MLB.com's transactions archive is just wrong -- and you can tell it's wrong, because it doesn't make any sense.

On this page, it shows these two paragraphs for July 12, 2003:

Indians purchased the contract of RHP Jake Westbrook from Triple-A Buffalo. Indians designated LHP Jason Stanford for assignment.

Indians purchased the contract of RHP Rafael Betancourt from Triple-A Buffalo. Indians designated RHP Jose Santiago for assignment.

Each paragraph is a balancing pair of transactions -- one guy gets his contract "purchased" (he's added to the 40-man) while another guy gets DFA'ed (he's removed from it).  The second paragraph is correct, but the first one is just wrong.

Westbrook wasn't added to the 40-man that day, he was already on the 40-man, so he was just recalled from Buffalo.  And Stanford didn't need to be removed to make removed from it, and he wasn't -- he was optioned to Buffalo.  And there's his elusive first option (for a total of three).

The July 5 entry is also wrong.  Stanford was not just "recalled" that day, which would mean that he'd already been on the 40-man roster.  It should say that his contract was purchased that day.

And how do I know the MLB.com archive is wrong?  First, because its chain of transactions doesn't even make internal sense, either for Stanford or for Westbrook.  And second, because I found a more complete archive of transactions for that season, one that does make sense internally.

And where is that page from?  Ironically ... it's from Ryan's old, old Indians site, which he had before he started his old blog, which itself was before he arrived here.  So nice work, Year 2003 Ryan ... your site is more accurate than the official MLB site.

by Jay on Jun 16, 2007 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I should add ... Ryan's archive shows that Stanford was recalled again July 23, optioned again August 10, recalled again September 1.  So although there is no other record of it on the web, the Indians apparently optioned the hell out of Stanford in 2003.

by Jay on Jun 16, 2007 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
just so you know someone did.  i read this.

i feel, as i bet you do, like i just read the last chapter of a book i was reading a year ago and didn't finish because i didn't like it all that much.  feels good to put it behind me.

by Brick. on Jun 17, 2007 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
If Stanford puts together another good start, I'll be very excited.  I just read two days ago that the Mariners want to trade for starters.  The Mariners!  I don't think it gets much better than that.

by nickjs21 on Jun 15, 2007 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I can just imagine the hand wringing going on at Lookout Landing if that happens.

by talonk on Jun 15, 2007 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
If someone picked up Jason Davis, your damned right someone is going to swipe up Stanford. I think it's important to delay Westbrook a few more starts and kick the tires on Stanford before they make a move.

by Toxicadam on Jun 15, 2007 10:59 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Speaking of blasts from the past...at 39-26, the Tribe currently has a .600 winning percentage.  During those glorious years of the '90s, only two Tribe teams played at that level - the awesome '95 squad (.694) and the '96 team (.614).

by APV on Jun 15, 2007 11:07 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
The 2005 team was the best squad since 1996.  Hopefully the 2007 team will top them.

by Jay on Jun 15, 2007 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
My favorite team was still the '99 team. That offense was exciting

by Roger Dorn on Jun 15, 2007 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
It's hard for me to choose a favorite other than the Belle. Baerga, Lofton teams of '93-'95.  Those three guys really brought me into my baseball maturity.  But the '99 team would certainly be a close 2nd with the Vizquel-Alomar DP combination, Lofton's 2nd coming, and the twin beast of Ramirez and Thome.  Plus great contributions from Justice, Sexson, and Sandy.

by APV on Jun 15, 2007 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I gotta learn to let go of those teams - they're spoiling my appreciation for the current bunch.  When you think of Belle, Ramirez, Thome, Lofton, Vizquel, Fryman, the Alomar Brothers, Murray, etal and compare it to today's team - there's only one or two of the current guys could crack that line up.  Victor over Sandy? - yeah I can see that, Grady or the '95 Lofton? - I dunno - I gotta go with Kenny - Eddie, Thome or Pronk? eh, too close to call they're all awful good - Jhonny or Omar? Omar, even today - Fryman or Casey? I'll take Travis - and the corner outfielders? No contest Manny and Albert in a heartbeat.

But then you miss the things that are making the current club winners - CC, Carmona, Byrd (Byrd -  did I just say Byrd?) and hopefully pretty soon Westbrook and maybe even Clifford.  It's pitching and good - but not great - hitting that makes the current bunch a winner.  But I gotta admit, I like those games in '97 where the final was 8 to 7 and we score 3 in the ninth to win it the best.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Omar, even today.

If I had to pick one phrase to exemplify 95% of Cleveland baseball fans, that might be it.

by afh4 on Jun 15, 2007 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Yeah the nostalgia got in my eyes - but the boy can still play defense.  To be truthful I haven't looked at his '07 numbers at all this year - thought he'd be hitting around .295  .361  .389 like last year not his current dismal numbers.  So yeah, my bad, even with the obvious defensive fall-off you can make a very good case that Peralta would play now instead of Omar.

I'm not sure who you'd sit so that Grady could play - Ramirez - nope, Kenny - close you'd lose a little defense but they both can score/manufacture runs - move Albert to DH? and what sit Thome/Murray, ah - I don't know.

And Hafner - maybe the '06 Hafner but not today's version.

Boyz ya gotta calm down.  All I'm saying is they're two different kinda teams.  Those '97 guys could thump - not that these guys can't hit.  But our current starting pitching has it all over those '90's teams.  That's all I'm saying.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
You're entitled to your opinions all day and I don't think anyone's too upset.

You're just letting nostalgia overwhelm you almost entirely.

With the exception of 1994 Grady is Lofton's superior in nearly every possible offensive way at a considerably younger age. And the defense thing is all subjective. In 15 years people are going to sit around and talk about Grady's defense being among the best ever, barring injury. Will it be true? I dunno but people will say it because he's fast as hell, athletic, and dives a lot. Like Kenny Lofton.

Similarly, Hafner's OPS+ now, in his down year, is better than any OPS+ Murray ever posted with the Indians.

Besides, all you have to do to get Hafner in the lineup is have Murray/Hafner split time at DH and first. If we're going to time travel players we might as well assume Hafner can play a little first.

I'm not going to get into the Peralta thing because I'm the only Indians fan of all time who isn't obsessed with Omar Vizquel. All I will say is that the statement:
you can make a very good case that Peralta would play now instead of Omar.

cannot possibly be what you mean. There is zero, zilch, absolutely no case to play the current version of 2007 Vizquel over 2007 Peralta. I'm not sure there is any GM, ever, in the history of baseball, who would take the Vizquel side of 2007 Vizquel-2007 Peralta.  

I'm not sure if you're talking about the 94-95 incarantion or the 1997 one. The 1997 one is even easier to slot guys into. Sizemore obviously plays instead of Grissom, you put Justice in left and let Hafner DH, Peralta can play third instead of Matt Williams, and Victor is still the C. Also, Barfield probably plays second instead of the unforgettable Tony Fernandez. Or, you can play Peralta at second and Casey Blake at third, b/c he's also better than 1997 Matt Williams.

by afh4 on Jun 15, 2007 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Yeah forgot about that Tony F year between Bearga and Roberto, but other than that ya gotta go with either Carlos or Roberto over what Josh has done so far (and I know it's early).  And I should have emphasized the obvious fact that Omar looks awful this year while Jhonny is outperforming anyone's expectations.  I just find it remarkable that a 40-something guy could play D and hit like Omar did last year.  I hope the Peralta has the same kinda career.  

And maybe including Murray was a mistake.  Pronk's has been a better Indian than Eddie.  Let's just call the Thome/Hafner thing a wash.

I just got done talking with one of the guy's here who I consider a pretty knowledgable baseball guy - even if he's a BoSox fan.  He said that he'd take Grady over Kenny whatever the year.  I can see it. But I'll betcha Kenny can still out-jump Grady.  And we agree that Vic's got the offensive edge on Sandy but neither will make anybody forget Pudge's defense.  So OK - Vic's got the edge - thought I said that.

Ah Peralta - Peralta.  Frankly he looks a lot like Julio Franco to me.  Below average defensive short-stop, average infielder.   But no doubt he can hit.  But Matt Williams?  I dunno.  Like I said I gotta think about Peralta vis-a-vis Fryman/Williams thing.  Too close to call - but what the hey - I'll give it to you.

So  Pronk, Vic, Johnny and Grady start and we sit Thome, Sandy, Fryman and Lofton.  And head to head in '07 Johnny's in front of Omar.  But for the other previous 12 years - nope don't think so.  Those are close.  But Ramirez/Michlucci, Belle/Blaxon, Roberto/Josh things are no contest.  And if Thome's a first baseman Garko's got no shot.

But what makes this year's team a winner is still pitching.  Maybe Orel would get a shot and Nagy in a good year.  But your ace and number two are still CC and Carmona and you'd still find a place for Byrd. That's the strength of this team.

It's just that I like offense. and I don't see too many 5-runs-in-the-ninth come-from-behind wins in the future for this bunch.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I don't think you ever have to sit Thome. Pronk would just always beat the DH or the first baseman. Thome always gets third.

In 1997, Thome to first, JP to third, Pronk to DH, Justice to LF. You only end up sitting Williams and Giles.

by afh4 on Jun 15, 2007 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Omar is having an awful year offensively this year. He is killing my NL fantasy team.

by talonk on Jun 15, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Hafner, Sizemore and Martinez would have played on any of those teams from the '90s.  In the environment of the 90s, Peralta probably would have switched to 3B and would have played.  And the way he's hitting now, Peralta might have played at short even in Omar's days.

by APV on Jun 15, 2007 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I think I said that Victor would start in front of Sandy.  Those other two guys are damn good too - I'm just not sure where you'd play 'em.
Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
man, then shoppach would really never get any playing time...

by Brick. on Jun 15, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
But he and Einar Diaz could help judge wacky bullpen contests

by APV on Jun 15, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
And as to Peralta vs. Fryman at third - I don't know - gotta think about that one.
Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Don't forget that Fryman only had 3 seasons he played more than 100 games with the Tribe ('98,'00,'02), and only in '98 and 2000 did he put up good offensive seasons.

by APV on Jun 15, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
And because I was interested:

The 1997 Indians won 5 games by scoring in the 9th inning. They never scored more than 2 runs to do it.

They also won 3 extra innings games but I don't really think you get "offensive juggernaut points" for failing to score enough runs in the alotted 9. And besides, they also lost 5 extra innings games.

In each of their extra innings wins, they scored only one run to win (granted, they only needed one run on June 5th and August 15th and were at home).

In comparison, the 2007 Indians have scored the winning run in the 9th inning 6 times already this season, including 4 run outbursts on April 22 and 23 and the historic 5 run ninth on June 1 against the Tigers.

I had forgotten about the 4/22-4/23 back to backs. Awesome wins.  

by afh4 on Jun 15, 2007 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
This from the Indians website:
(Since 1994).. the Tribe has won 133 games in its last at bat.

And I can't seem to find it but didn't they have the record for come from behing wins sometime in the 90's?  Just reaching but remember they had to score a lot of runs back then - our pitching was right around the league median.

Sometimes you just gotta be lucky

by mauichuck on Jun 15, 2007 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I don't have any idea. But this year's team is already on a pretty torrid pace and has already had three huge comebacks.

It happens to everybody. Things look different when you're looking backwards.

For instance, I am convinced Christian Laetener is the best college basketball player of all time.

by afh4 on Jun 15, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I liked the infield of Fryman-visquel-alomar-thome.

by sargecoveyrube on Jun 15, 2007 11:35 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
I still pine for the 1994 team.  No lead was ever insurmountable.  They could score 6 and come from behind to win in the 9th, and often did.  I still say if it were not for the strike, they would have won it all.  Once this team gets everyone contributing at the same time, hopefully in Oct. and Sept., they will surplant the 94 team for me as my favorite.

by 94neverout on Jun 15, 2007 11:46 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
If Stanford has a good 2nd start, I'm sure Shapiro can finagle the roster to get a 3rd start out of him, before he has to make a decision on Stanford.  I think Shaprio would like to see Westbrook perform in the ML before cutting loose more options.

Given Seattle's current record and the prospect of 4 meaningful games in Seattle in the last week of the season, Seattle would have to make another really stupid deal to entice Shapiro to trade them immediate pitching help at this time.

by palcal on Jun 15, 2007 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Blast From the Past
Hafner, Sizemore, Peralta and Martinez would make every starting lineup from that run.  For the most part, the great players of this era and that played different positions.

For the 95 team, you'd move Peralta to 3B to make room for good-Baerga and Robbie Alomar.  For 96-98, you'd move Peralta to 2B to make room for Vizquel.  For 99-01, you can ditch Fryman or Vizquel, but you can't really ditch Peralta.  Not if you're trying to win.

Pronk makes every team, beating Murray in 95 and Sexson/Justice in 99 and Burks in 01, while Thome stays at 1B.

Victor beats Sandy every single year.  Sandy's career high Runs Created is 86, which Victor has surpassed in every full season; this year, he's on a pace to pass it around August 10.

Grady beats Kenny, too.  Despite what feels like a down year, Grady is on pace for 118 RC, well better than Lofton's career bests of 111 and 102.  Grady's only two seasons are 106 and 128 -- at an age when Kenny wasn't even in the majors yet.

(It's true that the 94 strike robbed Kenny of more gaudy numbers, but it was for only one year.  He never approached that kind of productivity any other year.)

by Jay on Jun 15, 2007 3:44 PM EDT reply actions  

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