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Oldberto ... gone gone gone

The Indians have released Roberto Hernandez and called up Ed Mujica and Ben Francisco.

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Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Nicknaming players this year, has in general, blown up in our face. We might need to establish a moratorium on nicknames.

by Roger Dorn on Jun 20, 2007 3:17 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Rouse the Gouse.

Mike "Popster" Rouse.

Ruff Rouse.

The Rouster.

C'mon! Help out!

by gte619n on Jun 20, 2007 4:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Sorry Robbie.  Seemed like a nice guy.  

... I'm not that sorry.

by nickjs21 on Jun 20, 2007 3:18 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
so what does this mean for the outfield platoons?

by world dictator on Jun 20, 2007 3:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Nixon needs to be next. As long as we aren't getting any production, give the time to the youngsters.

by johnnyromano on Jun 20, 2007 3:32 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
What's the state of the 25? DD and Roberto made it 23? And now another decision has to be made to add Westbrook? Or is he already on it and it was at 24 before today?

Sorry for all the questions. I don't know where to find answers I trust. Westbrook is not on the 25 on the Indians website.

So...Mujica and Francisco can't go down for what, 10 days? So someone else is getting cut or moved when Westbrook is added for his start this weekend?

by afh4 on Jun 20, 2007 3:34 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Nah, they can go down whenever. The rule's that they can't be brought back for 10 days unless it's to replace someone who's injured.

by zempf on Jun 20, 2007 4:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
And the next comment addresses that. That's what I get for trying to be helpful.

by zempf on Jun 20, 2007 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
My understanding is that anyone with an option may be sent down at any time, regardless of how much time they have spent with the big club.  However, once there, they must stay in the minors at least 10 days, unless they would be called up to replace someone on DL.  

by woodsmeister on Jun 20, 2007 3:37 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Ok, so they have to stay down ten days but can come up for just one. That's clarifying. Thanks.

by afh4 on Jun 20, 2007 3:41 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Well all right, that answers my question - it appears last night's extended look at Hernandez was in fact a test. Which he failed. If he simply remains in his same iffy role in the pen then Wedge's move (or lack of it once Oldberto faced Howard) with the game in doubt was very questionable.

There is more spilt milk here besides last night's game - the loss of several million $$ and a high draft pick with pretty much zero return - but its not worth crying over, that's baseball.

Looking forward, the youth movement continues with the callup of Francisco and Mujica. It's no real surprise that Ben makes it up - he has been amongst the IL leaders in several offensive categories all season, showing the blend of speed, defense, avg and gap power that makes him profile as at least a 4th outfielder in the major leagues. Looks like he will actually get some at bats now and the most extended look in front of the Tribe brass since spring training when he made a very good impression.

Bringing Mujica up is a little surprising, especially since the proven righty specialist, Matt Miller, has done quite well and looks ready to go. Mujica hasn't had much success in his brief ML stints, and despite a good start in Buffalo this year, has proven vulnerable to the big inning, sporting a 6+ era (12.00 over his last 10 outings).

It could be that the decision to keep Stanford as the long man in the pen has already been made, and Mujica is here to hold down a spot until Westbrook gets put back on the roster this weekend. We'll see.

All in all, this is further encouragement that the brass will not be as patient with non-performing vets as they have been in the past, and that there is more emphasis on winning now, this year. Trot Nixon becomes the sore thumb sticking out in this regard, and probably the most difficult choice confronting Wedge and Shapiro, for many gritty reasons. Most likely he will lose some at-bats against righties to both Gutz and Ben, but remain the primary platoon guy for now.

by mcrose on Jun 20, 2007 3:48 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
It's pretty remarkable at first glance how much roster turnover we've had this year considering we have pretty much been (and still are, by the way) a first place team all season.  But then again, I guess that's how Shapiro has constructed the club.  The veterans were signed to cheaply provide options...if they do great, super.  They're cheap, and in most cases, we can keep them cheaply for another year or two if we want.  They also let Francisco, Gutz, Mujica, Mastny, Choo and others prove why they should be in Cleveland.  So far we've had a little from column A (veterans doing well, like Michaels) and a little from column B (Mastny, Mujica, and now Gutz and Francisco playing their way onto the club).  Meanwhile, the demotion of Marte did not result in a dropoff because of the flexibility Blake provides.  I love it.  It's great baseball from an organizational perspective.

by APV on Jun 20, 2007 3:49 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
To add on to the sentiment...While many teams have gone with a total youth movement as part of a rebuilding process, the Indians of '07 were built aroung the core of Haf, Vic, Grady, Blake, and a pretty good set of starters (on paper)along with a couple of decent relievers. The rest was patchwork here and there, platoon here and there. The elders are already showing their wear and ineffectiveness, meanwhile the kids have had time to feel the sting of another demotion-they should be hungry. If Gutz and Francisco have it, they should be ready by now.

by BoDiaz1974 on Jun 20, 2007 4:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
I wonder what impact this will have on next year's draft.

by fleerdon on Jun 20, 2007 3:50 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
I would have rather seen Matt Miller get the call-up, rather than Mujica. Mujica has been knocked around a number of times since returning to Buffalo.

by JesseAK on Jun 20, 2007 3:51 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
I suspect the 10-day rule may have come into play with M. Miller - i.e., he has not yet been down in Buffalo the required ten days before being eligible for another callup.

Dellucci is on the DL, but a pitcher may have had to go on the DL for Miller to circumvent the 10-day rule.  

This is just speculation, Jay may be able to confirm.

by mplswahoo on Jun 20, 2007 3:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
D'oh! You are correct; Miller was optioned on the 14th.

by JesseAK on Jun 20, 2007 3:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Pretty insignificant, but I wonder if Barton will get bumped to Buffalo to fill Francisco's spot for the time being.

by APV on Jun 20, 2007 3:52 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
He gone!
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Jun 20, 2007 3:57 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
please don't do that again. :\
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Jun 20, 2007 4:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Mujica probably has an astronomical BABIP, so I'm not worried about his ERa. His peripherals look outstanding.

Not a fan of Francisco being called, obviously. Gutierrez better start seeing significant playing time.

by Joe. on Jun 20, 2007 4:07 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
They're similarly effective, offensively, but I like Generalissimo's BB/K numbers, so I prefer him by a hair.  Gutz has been great defensively, and has a little better pop (I guess).  But I don't see how you could like one and not the other- they just don't seem that distinctively different.

by MTF on Jun 20, 2007 4:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Gutuz is younger, much better defensively, and has much better upside. So that's it in a nutshell.

by Joe. on Jun 20, 2007 4:30 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
One thing Wedge was quoted as liking about Ben this spring was his swing: "short, quick, low maintenance". Translation - he doesn't need to play everyday.

by mcrose on Jun 20, 2007 4:38 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
If they're not that distinctively different (which I agree with), why are they both up here instead of one of them staying in Buffalo to get consistent at-bats?

by The DiaTriber on Jun 20, 2007 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
To improve the major league team instead of leading the race for the Governor's Cup? Getting limited at-bats for a couple of months won't destroy either guy long-term.

by stoicpaisano on Jun 20, 2007 5:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Some clarifications on Francisco!
Hello everyone,

A few things about Francisco:

Shapiro said on a radio interview around the time of the draft when Gutierrez was the call-up from AAA Buffalo, that Francisco, NOT Gutierrez, has more pop.  Gutierrez IS better defensively, though I think more the problem with Francisco that I've heard is his weak arm, not his range, as he has played all 3 OF positions on a regular basis.  While I'm not sure he'd be able to cover the ground Gutierrez covers as easily as Franklin does it, it's almost a certainty that Francisco will have better range and be a better OFer than Dellucci, and probably be at least comparable to Michaels, so Francisco ISN'T a bad OFer; he just doesn't have Gutierrez's arm and probably not quite the same range, but we're not talking about another Dellucci defensively either.  

Personally, I'd like to see what Francisco can do; we've seen what Marte can do to this point and Marte still can work on the consistency of his ABs from AB to AB and from game to game; plus, if the Indians had called up Marte, Blake would have had to shift back to the OF, and while Marte had been pretty solid defensively over there at 3B, Blake has been more consistent, and arguably, better this year at 3B.  Plus, Blake is comfortable there and hasn't played in the OF for a few to several weeks; why disturb the IF defense when you don't need to?  I think Francisco was the right/best callup for the team's best interests right now (this also allows Marte to gain that consistency we're looking for, not have him play a few games here and sit a few games there; he needs consistent ABs to gain that consistency, not sitting around half the time.)

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jun 20, 2007 6:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
According to Baseball Prospectus, in the modern history of baseball the 2nd most comparable player to Franklin Gutierrez is ... Ben Francisco.  So there you go.

by nickjs21 on Jun 20, 2007 10:54 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Indians are lucky to have such OF depth;
they provide nice backup insurance, and possible future pieces, if the Indians decide to go that route.  Or even possible trade bait if the Indians decide to go that route.  Overall, a lot of options with Gutierrez and Francisco.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jun 20, 2007 11:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Also if Barfield bats 2nd again, I'm flipping a shit.

by Joe. on Jun 20, 2007 4:31 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
It's still better than a healty Dellucci batting second.  Barfield has been having a good June so far, but that may or may not last so I can see why you wouldn't want him there.

Who would you like batting second?

by Pronk33 on Jun 20, 2007 6:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Barfield's OBP is still worse than Dellucci's AND Nixon's, so he definately should not be batting second.  Blake is fourth on the team in OBP and he takes a lot of pitches so he's fine there.  As much as I have disliked him in the past, he's hitting well this year so he's probably our best current option.

by Buckeye Brad on Jun 20, 2007 6:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
...and Blake sees a ton of pitches

by Roger Dorn on Jun 20, 2007 6:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
nm, sorry i missed it when i initially read your post

by Roger Dorn on Jun 20, 2007 6:57 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Keep in mind that Barfield's poor start likely
skewed his OBP; it's likely his OBP is a lot higher of late, which is really what one should take into account on whether he should be up in the #2 hole now or not.  Conversely, I bet Dellucci's and Nixon's OBPs of late are lower than their season averages, so putting Barfield up in that #2 hole, something Wedge hinted he would do more of in the future, is probably not as bad of an idea as you're implying.

In fact:

Barfield's OBP by month:

April: .195
May: .316
June: .328

Nixon's OBP by month:

April: .357
May: .373
June: .329

Dellucci's OBP by month:

April: .367
May: .369
June: .301

Blake's OBP by month:

April: .308
May: .356
June: .357

Barfield's OBP is virtually identical to Nixon's in June, and is significantly ahead of Dellucci's, making Barfield the better choice for the #2 spot right now (and of course, Dellucci is no longer an option for the time being.)  While Blake is the best choice of all, if you want to keep the struggling Pronk out of the cleanup spot, you could put Barfield and his increasing OBP in the #2 spot behind Sizemore, drop Blake to #3, have Victor bat #4, and either have Pronk or Peralta in the #5 spot, with the other batting #6.  That's what Wedge has done, and sounds like he will do more of that in the future, something I'd like to see more of.

Either way, as one of the STO announcers (I'm not sure which one of the three it was) mentioned, I like Barfield and Sizemore back-to-back, whether it's 9-1 or 1-2.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jun 20, 2007 11:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Keep in mind that Barfield's poor start likely
Barfield's OBP is virtually identical to Nixon's in June, and is significantly ahead of Dellucci's, making Barfield the better choice for the #2 spot right now

The use of a hot-hand strategy is dicey at best.  Nixon has had a OBP for, like, ten years.  Does that count for nothing?  Only the past three weeks matter?

by Jay on Jun 21, 2007 12:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Keep in mind that Barfield's poor start likely
Well, that begs the question:  is the cumulative Trot Nixon playing today, or is the Trot Nixon of today playing today?

I'm not sure anybody's in a hurry to get Rickey Henderson's .401 career OBP into the #2 hole in their lineup, regardless of how bad he'd like to.

by rolub on Jun 21, 2007 9:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Keep in mind that Barfield's poor start likely
Right, except that it's not really either/or, it's really how much of each?

JRam's comment on Barfield below is pretty instructive as well.

by Jay on Jun 21, 2007 10:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

barf
all Barfield does is hit for contact. Until he can prove he can do more, he is our #9 hitter. Hell I'd even take Michaels in the 2 spot over him. A guy with an ISOD of less than .030 should be placed nowhere near the top of the lineup, ever.

by Joe. on Jun 21, 2007 4:03 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Not sure if anyone wrote this or not but doesnt this probably mean Stanford is here to stay?  

He will probably be released if he is sent down before June 30 and with the release of Oldberto there is now a spot for a reliever.  I think Mujica will be back down Sunday (with the Westbrook callup) and Stanford will move to the pen.  If effective there he sticks...if not, it's bye bye Jason.

by Tribe Alive on Jun 20, 2007 4:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
One thing interesting about Stanford is looking at his splits on the year -- for a lefty thrower, he's been a lot more effective vs. righties (to the tune of a 607 OPS in 51 1/3, which is pretty nice). I don't know if that's in line with his history or just a fluke this year.

by zempf on Jun 20, 2007 5:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
Wedge:  Stanford here to stay

by palcal on Jun 20, 2007 6:53 PM EDT   0 recs

I like that move - see what Stanford can do for
us and give us a true long-man in the bullpen; that way, you can use Perez in more late-inning, key situations, which it seems Perez is more ready to take on now.
Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jun 20, 2007 8:25 PM EDT   0 recs

Nice one! :-)
I just renamed Hafner "Project" instead of "Pronk."  All "Project," no "Donkey."  :-)  
Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jun 20, 2007 11:25 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
FWIW, per the mlb indians webpage, the Tribe decided to cut ties with Hernandez now, instead of on Saturday (when Westbrook would have been activated - am assuming Mujica goes back down then), since this road trip is a family one (the players take the wives and kids with them).

They felt it wouldn't be nice to cut Hernandez midway on the trip. And since Mujica has already had his option burned this year, no big deal to have him up for a couple of days.

Essentially Stanford becomes the long man and takes his spot on the 25, with Westbrook moving back into the rotation.

Now we all rip on the FO for a lot of things, but in my eyes this was a very classy move.

by talonk on Jun 21, 2007 11:42 AM EDT   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
That's super classy, like you can't believe that they're capable of such considerations.  I've heard before that when guys re-sign or join up as coaches that the always appreciate how honest Mark Shapiro is.  What a great idea to treat players like human beings rather than commodities.  In the long run, that's probably more helpful to our organization's reputation than a lot of other, more frequently publicized features.

by NickFantana on Jun 21, 2007 8:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
I'm not naive enough to believe that Shapiro and Co. don't treat their players like commodities.  In fact, I hope they do.  It's good business.  The fact that, whenever possible, they also treat them with respect is just a plus.  

by nickjs21 on Jun 21, 2007 8:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Oldberto ... gone gone gone
that **they* always appreciate

by NickFantana on Jun 21, 2007 8:04 PM EDT   0 recs

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