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Laffey - a possible explanation

Stephanie Storm, in a post on her blog, speculates that the reason for Laffey's continued unknown whereabouts is that the Indians are simply waiting to see if Fernando Cabrera clears waivers:

So what's taking so long? If the Indians didn't start the process with Cabrerra until Monday, they have to wait until the end of Wednesday to see if he was claimed or can be sent to Buffalo to begin the rebuilding process.
Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it? It could be that the FO figured Cabrera would be claimed right away, but it didn't happen, and now they simply have to wait out the full 48 or 72 hours (I forget how long the waiver period is) before they make the move.

Note also that this could actually be happening with Stanford, not Cabrera, as they're both in the same situation (IE, out of options and not really making themselves useful on the 25-man).

The hidden good news here could be that we get to keep whichever of those pitchers is on waivers, which I think we all thought we'd lose.

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Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Sounds like this explanation is the consensus...

http://buffalonews.typepad.com/insidepitch/2007/07/cleveland----pl.html

"The word here is simple: The Tribe has put struggling reliever Fernando Cabrera on waivers and has Laffey on call for when Cabrera is either claimed or goes unclaimed and can be sent to Buffalo. But you never admit a player is sitting out on waivers and that's apparently why there's all this KGB intrigue."

by tobytobytoby on Jul 24, 2007 12:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
So does that mean Laffey will be taking Cabrera's role in the bullpen?
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Jul 24, 2007 12:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Whoa... the diary was moved front page exactly when I posted.
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Jul 24, 2007 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I really hope they push Cliff back. It's been talked about here before, but he profiles like a starter who could succeed as a reliever.

by afh4 on Jul 24, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Except he keeps getting shelled early in his starts.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
True, but in a number of ways you approach hitters differently as a reliever than you do as a starter.  This is oversimplifying it, but that much should be obvious.

by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Well, last year he was terrible in the 1st, great in the 2nd and 3rd, and the horrible until the 5th. And then truly horrible from there on.

This yeah, he's just sort of across the board bad. He perks up a bit in the 3rd and 4th (really on the 4th) but is horrendous again by the 6th.

Point being, I don't think there's a pattern to when Cliff is the worst. He's just pretty bad, period, of late, and which inning is the disaster over the past two years is probably depending a lot more on the hitters than Cliff.

Link to my favorite thing ever, the BRef splits pages. Go back to 2006 to see last year.

On top of that, I'm assuming he would warm up much differently and take a different mental approach. Who knows how much that's worth, but it's there.

I'm intrigued by him in the bullpen because Cliff has decent stuff that could, hopefully, become at least good if he was allowed to cut loose a little. If his fastball could go from 89 to 92, and if he could use that curve as an out pitch that hitters will only see once or twice, well, it seems like he might be ok at it.

by afh4 on Jul 24, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
stamina was a recurring complaint re lee over the last couple.  one wonders whether he's getting shelled early because he's trying to save a bit.

by emil minty on Jul 24, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
"Cliff Lee" and "mental approach" don't really seem to go together.

I've been one of the biggest Lee apologists, but he sure is an enigma.  

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Perhaps he'll begin to take not a new mental approach, but simply take a mental approach at all.

by afh4 on Jul 24, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like that idea!
Hello Andrew,

I like the idea, and I could see Lee doing better in that role because, like you, I too think Lee has trouble focusing, but if he only has to come in for 1-2 innings, he can focus his attention on just 2 innings at most, and we've seen where he can go 2 solid innings with the stuff he has now.  If his fastball can reach the low-90s consistently, along with that curveball, I'd think that would be all he would need to become an effective middle reliever, and even eventually, effective setup man.

If I recall correctly, didn't Jose Mesa have similar complaints as a starter - he couldn't keep his focus throughout his entire start, and as a result, his performance by inning was erratic.  Yet, for a while, he was quite dominant in just one inning of work.  I wouldn't mind the Indians trying Lee out in that short stint of 1-2 innings in the bullpen - I'd think he be worth more to the Indians if he was solid to great in that role than if he just remains a mediocre starter who has one great outing and 5-6 average to bad ones, resulting in the Indians going something like 1-6, 2-5, or 3-4 in a span of 7 starts.  We need starters who can consistently keep us in games, something Lee has not done for most of this year, and even a good portion of last year.  Therefore, I hope the idea is being more strongly considered, based on Lee's recent track record of being average at best as a starter, as well as the fact that Lee is not making much progress of improving over a period of 1+ seasons, rather than just over a handful of starts.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 24, 2007 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
You do? He does? I think Lee just profiles as a 4th starter. I really don't see him as a guy that can warm up quickly and come in with guys on base for that big K or popup or groundall.

by mrich on Jul 24, 2007 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
As I said in my simulpost, it has to do with Cliff's stuff being subpar as is and maybe becoming at least par if he's a reliever.

Obviously, this all gets talked about because Cliff has had his struggles and there's this feeling of, could it really hurt?

I don't know. I guess it depends on if the FO thinks Laffey could give them #5 production.

by afh4 on Jul 24, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Don't we usually see a press release when someone gets DFA'ed?
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jul 24, 2007 12:50 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
It's not necessary to DFA someone in order to send him through waivers.

by Ryan on Jul 24, 2007 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Ahh, I missed that intricacy.  Can you expand on this though?  Why wouldn't you DFA him if your intent is to send him to AAA (if he doesn't get claimed)?
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jul 24, 2007 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
The real purpose of a DFA is to remove him from the 40-man roster (or, in this case, the 25-man roster as well). If you're willing to keep him on the roster, you can send him through waivers without having to DFA him.

by Ryan on Jul 24, 2007 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I see.  This just isn't a scenario that arises very often.  I find myself frightened and confused.  Sometimes when I get a message on my FAX machine, I wonder, did little demons get inside and type it?  I don't know.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jul 24, 2007 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
You kidding?  It's happened to us like five times since November.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I think we've DFA'ed every one of those guys.  I don't think we've been in the dark about guys being put on waivers.  Am I wrong about that?
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jul 24, 2007 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I don't think Stanford and Guthrie (and a couple others) were DFA'ed in the offseason.  I think they were just put on waivers, and we heard about it afterwards.

by Jay on Jul 25, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I guess that may be right.  I just don't remember it happening that way.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jul 25, 2007 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Ryan, I'm not sure this is right.  My understanding is that it's not possible to put a guy on optional assignment (on the 40-man but in the minors) once he's out of options.  He must be outrighted off the 40-man roster, for which I believe a DFA is the only mechanism.  I may have a detail wrong there, but that's my understanding.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Can he refuse the "option" to Buffalo and become a FA? Or would we still retain him per the service time accrued?

by talonk on Jul 24, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I believe that's only for someone with more than 5(?) years of MLB service time.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
A player cannot refuse outright assignment the first time it happens in his career.  The second time, he can opt for an unconditional release.

That said, the problem with Cabrera, if he clears waivers, is solved only for a few months.  In November, we'll have to either add him back on the 40-man or expose him to the Rule 5.  If he makes it past the Rule 5, he'll be a minor league free agent.  If we add him back on, we have this same nonsense to worry about next season.

I should add that as a minor league free agent, it's probably 50-50 if not better that he re-signs with the Indians, but I wouldn't expect him to make it past the Rule 5.  For that reason, you may see the Indians release him in the fall, then re-sign him as a minor leaguer after the Rule 5.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I know I've asked this before, but I never did really understand the explanation. When we sent Matt Miller down to Buffalo, what was the process? And what are the consequences if we bring him back up? Can he be sent back down without being exposed to waivers? I really need to order that copy of the CBA...I've been putting this off for a while now.

by supermarioelia on Jul 24, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Miller at first went down on a rehab assignment, but later on was optionally assigned.  That uses up his final option, but we are free to move him up and down through the end of this season at least.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I think once he's cleared waivers, he can be outrighted off of the 40-man. The DFA process just gives you that 10-day period to complete the waiver/trade/release.

by mrich on Jul 24, 2007 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I don't think so - the DFA is a mechanism that allows teams to have an extra 10 days to figure out what to do with a player while opening up the roster spot for someone else. The Indians apparently are fine with keeping Fernando on the roster while this is happening, so there's no need to DFA him.

by Ryan on Jul 24, 2007 1:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
The way I read it, Cabrera being placed on waivers is the same as what always happens post-July 31 trade deadline, when a bunch of players are placed on waivers for the purpose of letting them be traded before the August 30 deadline. It's one of those things where if he slips through he slips through, but I believe they actually have the option to revoke the waivers if they want to keep him & another team has claimed him, which is not the case with a DFA.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Cabrera needs to be placed on outright waivers to remove him from the 40 man roster and send him to the minors. They are irrevocable.

This is not the same as ML waivers that are needed to trade soemone after July 31st.

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2006/08/death_taxes_and_1.php

by ronh on Jul 24, 2007 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
You're talking about different types of waivers. Cabrera is (supposedly) going through irrevocable waivers, which is the waivers teams have to use before outrighting a player off the 40-man roster.

The August waivers are revocable. See this article by Keith Law

by Ryan on Jul 24, 2007 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
So if it is Cabrera, this takes care of the question of who comes off the 40-man to put Laffey on.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
OK, so let me recap for my own knowledge.

To remove a player from the 40, he can be

  1. Outrighted off the 40 and sent to AAA/AA, etc if all of his options have not been used AND he does not have enough service time to become a FA.

  2. If he has no more options left, he is placed on irrevocable waivers. If he clears waivers, he may be sent down to AAA/AA, etc. pending service time. If he has enough service time, he can refuus the assignment and become a FA.

  3. If he needs to be replaced immediately on the 25, the team can DFA and buy an extra 10 days to clear waivers, trade, release etc. I believe this usually occurs more for players that have not accrued enough service time to refuse the assignment.

That sum it up?

by talonk on Jul 24, 2007 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Not quite.  Any time you want to remove a player from the 40-man, he has to be put on irrevocable waivers, regardless of his option status.

Optional assignment, again, means a player is on a major league contract (40-man roster) but assigned to a minor league team.

If a player has options remaining (and not yet used in the current season), if you outright him off the 40-man, he doesn't use up an option, since he was not optionally assigned.  That is, he's just purely a minor leaguer on a minor league roster at that point.

DFA is not really related to service time, because only a handful of players could refuse a trade.  After the assignment has been made, if it's an outright assignment, some players will have the right to refuse it.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I see -- you're saying they can wait to see if he clears waivers and then DFA him, or just outright him immediately.  That does make sense, which is a good first test!

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I don't think they're the same thing.  I'm not as hip on these rules as others on this blog.  My understanding is that announcements aren't typically made when someone is put on waivers until they clear them.  Clarification?

by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2007 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
AAA is exactly what Cabrera needs, and the common belief was that it wouldn't be possible.  If he made it through waivers I would experience a wave of elation only possible among baseball blogging geeks.

by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2007 12:51 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I would be shocked if Cabrera cleared waivers. Teams at the bottom that are going to lose anyway should take on a guy like him and let him labor in the big leagues and hope they can fix him.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2007 12:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Except they have to keep him on their 25-man rosters too, which tend to be full this time of year. Could be that the timing of Cabrera's hitting the waiver wire just caught some teams flat-footed with their own roster issues, who knows.

Or maybe they've seen him pitch and just don't think he's worth it.

by mrich on Jul 24, 2007 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
That's a thoughtful comment. When you consider Fernando from the perspective of other baseball teams...If you're a contender, you're looking for bullpen HELP, not a fix-'er-upper. If you're out of the race, you'd be asking yourself, would he get any better just because we pick him up? He's had a lot of development time with a very respected coaching staff already. If you're still hot for him, you could almost certainly try back later. It's not like he's untouchable.

by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2007 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Is this a really good time to slip a guy through waivers? Might be. Everybody is talking trade.

Still you would think there would be plenty of sub .500 teams that could just send one of their relievers down to take a chance on Cabrera. The cost is really minimal.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Once you decide he's a live-arm/no-strike kind of guy...well, they don't grow on trees, I guess, but they're certainly fungible. I just have this vision of some GM going, "Cabrera? Meh."

by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
E5, where your explanation?!?!?
GermanysTribeFan

by GermanysTribeFan on Jul 24, 2007 12:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
A middle reliever is not going to make or break this team.

I guess they think that having Laffey as a middle reliever is the best for his development (which should be the largest consideration for this type of move). This has not been the standard protocol for the tribe before, but Westbrook worked out this way.  The way Lee and Westbrook have been going he may get a chance to pitch enough innings in a low leverage environment.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 1:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I think what they think is that being a big-league middle reliever should not hamper his development, and the first priority is contending now.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Why are we assuming Laffey will be a reliever? There's certainly a chance he is taking Lee's spot in the rotation with Lee being put in the bullpen. The Bisons manager did say that Laffey was staying in the organization as a starter.

by Joe. on Jul 24, 2007 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
It's also possible that they see him as more of a reliever long-term, although he seems a bit young/advanced for that determination.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think BA sees him more as a reliever long-term,
but I could see with those GO ratios and his rapid advancement maybe becoming a decent starter in the mold of a Jake Westbrook, but perhaps they want him to go to the bullpen first like Jake did, just to get his feet wet and see if he would be a candidate for the rotation at some point.  This would also give a little more time for Lee to straighten himself out.

However, I also agree that it seems a bit odd if Laffey goes straight to the bullpen; most of the Indians' pitchers who were called up and are currently in the bullpen usually have had extensive Minor League relief experience, something Laffey hasn't had - 1 relief appearance in 2007, 18 total relief appearances from 2003-2007, with just 9 of those appearance occurring from 2005-2007, so it would seem a bit unusual to stick him in the bullpen when he hasn't had that much experience, especially when compared to Mastny, Perez, Cabrera.  

However, Carmona didn't have much bullpen experience when he was called up last year and put in the bullpen either (5 total relief appearances from 2002-2006, and just 2 from 2005-2006,) so I guess it's not as unprecedented as I first thought.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 24, 2007 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re:
I believe almost every single one of those relief appearances was actually a "dual starter" system, where Scott Lewis or Tony Sipp would go 4 innings and then Laffey would come in for the back half of the game, within the usual rotation.

Completely different situation than a true reliever, and not applicable in reference to any current move.

by mcrose on Jul 24, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you are probably right, as I don't recall
any "actual" relief appearances by Laffey.
Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Jul 24, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
With all the knowledge on his blog, I can't believe one of us didn't figure this out.

Especially E5 and all his "voodoo" scenarios. But yes, now that I recall, he never actually proclaims anything concrete, just vague generalities. Just like the palm readers and fortune tellers. "Does it begin with the letter J?"

by talonk on Jul 24, 2007 1:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Here's a nice little read I found from Rob Neyer about roster transactions.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/s/transanctionsprimer.html

I have no idea what year this is from.

by supermarioelia on Jul 24, 2007 1:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Great link. Thanks.

So Cabrera or Stanford could be put on waivers, but still be retained. Why mess with Laffey before the situation is resolved? There is no dying need to bring Laffey to the bigs.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Above it says the waivers are irrevocable. So that is that.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I dunno, I just don't see Laffey going into the major league pen w/o any prior experience. It just doesn't seem like a move they would make at this point in the season.

Perez had prior relief experience, both in the minors and the majors. Stanford had two starts, and was kept in long relief because they had to to keep him. Jensen Lewis had proved his adjustment to the role before being promoted. Laffey is the youngest and least experienced of the lot and is in a steady groove as a starter. Doesn't sound like a Shap kind of move.

We'll see. It does sound like the word from above has tightened everyone's "official" story somewhat. No more winking and nudging and alternate narratives. Altho the last Buffalo blog post today had the phrase "Indian starter Laffey" artfully crossed out and followed by "Buffalo starter Laffey". Oh look - a "typo"! (nudge, wink).

by mcrose on Jul 24, 2007 1:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
i could see them placing both stanford and cabrerra on waivers and see what happens.  what i don't get is why not just leave laffey with buffalo till you find out?

also (no exclamation point) i just can't see cabrera not being picked up by someone like the whitesox who couldn't be much worse off even if cabrera is terrible then they are now with their terrible relievers and have a shot of striking gold down the road...

by Brick. on Jul 24, 2007 1:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
The White Sox are a good example, they're all about picking up projects & trying to turn them into something good. See also Bobby Jenks, Andy Sisco, etc.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Laffey hasn't been called up yet. I think the goal is to ultimately remove Cabrera from the 40 man roster if he clears waivers and send him to Buffalo. Laffey would be the one to replace him on the big league roster.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2007 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
It's still weird they packed up his locker and stuff, if they were trying to be so covert.

by afh4 on Jul 24, 2007 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
The covert part was probably just out of respect to Cabrera, who remains in the major league bullpen until he clears waivers or is claimed.

by Jay on Jul 24, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I guess someone should've told Lovullo to not be so Peter Falk in the In-Laws with his spy moves.

by afh4 on Jul 24, 2007 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
but based on all these reports, his 'body' and his 'stuff' aren't physically in the buffalo clubhouse.  that's what i mean.

by Brick. on Jul 24, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
This might be the most intellectual thread we've had here in a while.

by supermarioelia on Jul 24, 2007 2:25 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
It's true, I actually learned something.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
You know guys, have we even given consideration to the thought that TWO things could be going on here.  1) Trying to clear Cabrera and 2) a possible trade of Lee?

Last year when Carmona was imploding in relief, I suggested we send him down and work on him as a starter.  Brandini jumped all over me like I was crazy.  Guess what?  They did it and it worked.

I don't know that it would work in this case, but man I'd like to see Cabrera clear, go down and work the same scenario.  There are just some guys that don't have the relievers mental toughness.  Look at JoBo and Porky.  Not really good stuff, but mental toughness and short memory.  If a starter has a bad inning, he can recover ad continue.  If a reliever has a bad inning the game is lost.

By the way, where is Brandini?

by Cactus Jack on Jul 24, 2007 2:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Brandini jumped all over me like I was crazy.

That doesn't sound like his style at all.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I think it's a misreading to see that Carmona failed as a reliever.  He actually dominated as a reliever -- yes, dominated -- for over a month.  He had a few bad outings as a closer and let his mechanics get out of whack.

I don't think they returned him to starting because he couldn't handle relieving.  I think they returned him to starting because the Indians season, and his season as a reliever, were both over regardless.

Carmona was always a terrific rotation prospect.  He was only shifted to the bullpen because of desperate need, but unless he emerged as a dominant closer, he was going to go back to the rotation eventually in any event.

by Jay on Jul 25, 2007 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
just to throw more fuel in the fire, from the scout boards:

None of this is making sense to me either. So, Laffey replaces Cabrera and when Fultz comes of the DL we have Laffey, Fultz, Perez and Stanford all working out of the BP (4 lefties). Plus Laffey's last start was interrupted so that he'd be fresh for BP work...some day? And it's just coincidence that Laffey's next projected start would now coincide with Lee's. I'm not buying it. The whole way this has been handled is fishy. I've got a buddy who is close with an agent who swears (he doesn't attribute this to the agent in any way) that there is a 3 club deal in works that is complicated and requiring some time to work out. He won't tell me anything else and swears he'd be in deep ** with his agent friend if he said more.

by ASP on Jul 24, 2007 2:52 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
If E5 is your agent friend, I'm not going to be impressed.

by supermarioelia on Jul 24, 2007 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I was about 2 seconds from posting the exact same thing. Buncha smartasses around here, we are. Anyway, whatever happens this has all been very interesting.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
that's not from me, it's from someone on the scout.com boards. Apologies for the confusion.

by ASP on Jul 24, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Damn, I got really excited for a second.

by Gradyforpresident on Jul 24, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I've got a buddy who is close with an agent who swears (he doesn't attribute this to the agent in any way) that there is a 3 club deal in works that is complicated and requiring some time to work out.

So who does Oakland get?

by Ryan on Jul 24, 2007 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
oakland?
GermanysTribeFan

by GermanysTribeFan on Jul 24, 2007 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Billy Beane is famous (infamous?) for pulling off complicated multi-team trades. I'm hard-pressed to think of a three-team in the past 10 years that he wasn't a part of.

by Ryan on Jul 24, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
who would the tribe be interrested in?
GermanysTribeFan

by GermanysTribeFan on Jul 24, 2007 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
If we're in a 3-team deal with Oakland, my guess is Beane wants the Cleveland guy, and we get a reliever from the mystery 3rd team.  

by cheech99 on Jul 24, 2007 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Yeah, I thought the same thing.  4 lefties in the pen seems kind of ridiculous.

For the rest of the season, I think this is valid for the big league team: Laffey = Stanford.

There is no reason to ask for waivers for Stanford to bring up Laffey, and you don't need two long soft-tossing lefties (i.e. Cabrera going). Some trade has to be going down.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I do agree if Laffey were coming up for middle relief purposes, I don't think they would have limited his pitch count. I see him entering the rotation.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2007 3:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
OMG, I hear the Devil Rays are trading us BJ Upton and Evan Longoria for Trot Nixon and Cliff Lee

by Gradyforpresident on Jul 24, 2007 3:35 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
i just sacrificed a live chicken and my gods reveal that were trying to aquire a-rod!!!!!
GermanysTribeFan

by GermanysTribeFan on Jul 24, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I'd love for Eva Longoria to be a part of the organization

by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2007 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Maybe she could bring along Tony Parker to solve the Cavs problem at point guard.

by woodsmeister on Jul 24, 2007 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Hey the Tigers lost today. A chance to get within one game. Go C.C.

by columbus714 on Jul 24, 2007 4:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
They're playing a DH, actually, so if they drop the second one too we could pull within a half game.

by zempf on Jul 24, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
This has been a very informative thread but a couple things still don't add up...

  1. We were told that Laffey "is a starter" (per Buffalo manager), that he "would be making a spot start or two" (per Buffalo announcers ~ right?), and his short-start the other day matches up perfectly for replacing the most likely to be dealt starter. There is NO reason to believe he would be called up as a Pen guy ~ it just makes no sense at all (as other have mentioned)... Oh and he's going to stay with the Indians

  2. Cabrera and his being on possible waivers... It's unlikely anyone would pick him up right now because of the fact that they would need to inturn wave someone to get him onto their 40man. Even if Chicago (for instance) really wanted him, they would have to drop someone that they would probably be able to trade in a package at the deadline ~ would be counter productive for teams without someone they just want to dump or transfer to the 60Day-DL.
(Side note on this, Oak apparently is about to DFA Kielty, and Cabrera would be the type of guy they would love to claim IMO)

3) we have no room on our 40Man... If we make a trade, we need to trade guys off of it or we are in a similar problematic boat. Laffey being added in place of Cabrera would be a fine idea, but what happens when we make a trade and it possibly involves someone not on our 40Man? Laffey would then need to be waived himself...

I think it make more sense that a trade is in the works. If this whole mess was just to clear Carmona, then:
~ what is a "starter" being called up to replace him for?
~ why is that "starter" kept on a rotation schedule on par (his short-start) with the guy most likely to be dealt ?
~ why would he be told to clean out his locker days in advance of anything actually taking place?
~ why would people in the organization stress that he is a "starter"?
~ why would we be doing this bullpen move days before the trade deadline when we are rumored to be bringing in a bullpen guy which makes the Laffey move pointless?
~ what happens with the 40Man when a trade does go down? Laffey gets waived as well?
~ why would we be exposing Cabrera for free when he infact would be a nice piece to add to a trade package?
~ BUT, if we just needed a spot start, then why not use Stanford whos on both the 40Man and current 25Man already? They must expect our team to be short a man or two for a couple days...

A trade is more than likely in my eyes, nothing in this whole mess makes sense what so ever, and it's the only thing I see plausible. Like people have pointed out, how many lefties do we need in the pen? Laffey was on no ones radar as far as a call-up then all of a sudden he's coming to the big club? And he's a "starter" for the pen none the less... We are probably about to lose 2-3 guys off the 40Man ~ one of which is probably a starter & either Lee or Byrd based off the rotation schedule Laffey is on...

by darkstar on Jul 24, 2007 4:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
IMO - there was a trade, and it has hit a snag. It may get worked out, it may not. It is the only thing that makes sense.

by oxforddave on Jul 24, 2007 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
"Laffey would then need to be waived himself..."

Wrong.  If Laffey gets put on the 40, he's staying on it for a while.  Someone else (Luna, et al.) will get booted if there's a 40 crunch.

by Brick. on Jul 24, 2007 4:41 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Oh man, my head is exploding.

Occult's razor, yeah yeah.  For what it's worth, count me among those who think that Laffey is going to start in Cleveland, and that something weird and complicated is about to drop.  

It's mostly a gut feeling.  I can't predict if this maneuvering includes (excludes?) Cliff, Cabrera et al.

I don't care or worry much one way or the other.  Such is my faith in Shapiro's command.

by homelytourist on Jul 24, 2007 5:02 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
I second this post. I'm trying to stay out of all the speculation, but also have a gut feeling (FWIW) that something weird is going down. One thing's for sure, and that's that we'll know for sure in about 7 days.
Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Jul 24, 2007 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Quick followup on the Cabrera/option business.

Correct me if I'm wrong here. So reading the Law article, I understand there are two ways to lose one's ability to move freely to the minors.

The first is running out of option years by being on the 40-man, but not being on the 25-man in 3 separate years, thus using up all 3 option years. Thus the only way to go back to the minors is via irrecovable waivers.

The second way being if 3 calendar years have elapsed since the first appearance on the 25-man roster, but s. Then you can go back to the minors via revocable waivers.

So the first situation applies to Fernando? I see that we brought him up in 2004 in August, so I guess being in Buffalo the rest of that season would make that his first option year.

Haha I guess I was holding out hope that the second situation applied to him and that we could get a feel for what would happen on waivers before we exposed him.

by supermarioelia on Jul 24, 2007 5:09 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Sorry the 4th paragraph was supposed to say "but still with option years left."

by supermarioelia on Jul 24, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Other Possible Scenario: Shapiro is just messin' with us to distract us from the whole Wedge extension.

It's the kind of GENIUS Shapiro is know for!

by gte619n on Jul 24, 2007 5:13 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
So if Cabrera is indeed being passed through waivers (or at least attempting to be), when do we find anything out?

by nickjs21 on Jul 25, 2007 12:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Quick question about Cliff's remaining option year. This paragraph caught my eye in one of the above pieces:

"There is a rule rarely invoked in baseball that creates a situation where a player who has options remaining still has to clear waivers to be sent on an optional assignment. If the assignment is to begin at least three full calendar years from the date of the player's first appearance on a 25-man roster, then the player can not be sent on an optional assignment without first clearing major league waivers. These waivers are revocable, and players usually clear those waivers without incident."

So Cliff would have to go through revocable waivers, correct?

by supermarioelia on Jul 25, 2007 12:45 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
So you are suggesting that now we have three ssuspects going through waivers, Lee, Cabrera, and Stanford?

by talonk on Jul 25, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Haha no I'm not adding to the speculation.

by supermarioelia on Jul 25, 2007 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Can a player play while going through waivers? Cuz Stanford is the last to have pitched (right?) on Monday. It seems like the Laffey mess all would've started either after or coinciding with the waiving, so Stanford's participation on Monday might sort of eliminate him.

Maybe?

I wish something would just happen already.

by afh4 on Jul 25, 2007 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
We talked about this a few weeks ago.

A player with significant service time (sparing the boring details) but one or more options remaining sometimes has to be put on waivers before he can be optioned to the minors.  These are revocable waivers, the same type that almost every player is put on at some point during August.  But we have it on good authority that in that scenario, the player almost always clears waivers.  Of course if a team put in a waiver claim on Lee, we would revoke it and pull him back.

A player with no options remaining can only be sent to the minors by removing him from the 40-man roster.  That entails putting him on outright waivers, sometimes called irrevocable waivers.  So that would apply to Stanford, Cabrera, Rouse and a handful of others on the roster.

by Jay on Jul 25, 2007 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Laffey - a possible explanation
Awright, from the "no link for miles" bin of baseless rumors, the two most frequently repeated trade scenarios today, culled from a quick trip thru other forums, are:

Lofton to Cleveland for a mid-level prospect. Brian Barton's name has been mentioned.

Isringhausen and Duncan to Cleveland, Cards get Lee + prospect.

I'd tend to think the first holds some water. Ben goes back to Buffalo, Kenny gets the platoon with Michaels, Barton jumps closer to the big leagues.

by mcrose on Jul 25, 2007 3:27 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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