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Around SBN: Can Tebow Say No To Anything?

WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

by Tribe Alive on Aug 23, 2007 10:02 AM EDT Comment 47 comments

As casual fans we observe many things. Some of us may hate a player like Barfield or Peralta or Borowski and usually there is good reason but a lot of times it is because of a what have you done for me lately (or havent done lately) feeling. All of us including myself are guilty of it.

For example, a lot of us are very down on Casey Blake and we dont understand why he bats second in the order. We have good reason to feel this way because he has really stunk the last couple of months. But, Wedge likes him and has faith in him and is very slow to move him. The issue really is this, who else should we bat second. Without an obvious choice, we leave Blake in the spot and pray.

But, this brings me to my point. Why the hell is Trot Nixon playing more or as much as Gutz?!?!?!?!?! As casual fans, we bitch and complain every night about this with good reason. We basically do it because we know how bad Nixon has been offensively and defensively. Both are fabulous reasons to replace him for even Jason Michaels at this point. But, I have done a little research to prove my point. The research was done so we cant just say this is a typical case of complaining and moaning.

Since July 5 (dreadful Detroit serious), Nixon has started 22 games...21 in RF and 1 at DH. Gutierrez has started 22 games...19 in RF and 3 in LF. Included in these games are 3 that they started together (the 3 Gutz was in LF).

Here is the breakdown with the Indians record...

Nixon in RF without Gutz - 5-13
Nixon at DH without Gutz - 0-1
A Total for Nixon without Gutz - 5-14

Gutz in RF without Nixon - 11-8
A Total for Gutz without Nixon - 11-8

Both of them in the lineup - 3-0

Grand Totals -
Nixon in the lineup - 8-14 (including 3 wins with Gutz)
Gutz in the lineup - 14-8

Now, we arent talking .700 baseball but it is definitely a very strong indicator as to who should be in the starting lineup. How does Wedge not recognize this?!?!?! How did Wedge get extended!!! This is not brain surgery here...

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Comments

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Obviously we should play both Trot and Franklin every day. We'll never lose again.

by notsince48 on Aug 23, 2007 10:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Since July 31st, the Indians are 1-4 in games Fausto Carmona starts. Conversely, the team is 3-2 during that same period when Paul Byrd starts. Does that mean Byrd is a better pitcher?

You'd make a much more compelling argument if you simply compared the two players' production

by Ryan on Aug 23, 2007 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Man, that Carmona guy sucks. Clearly the solution is that when Carmona's spot comes up in the rotation, we can pitch Gutz & stick Nixon in right. 1.000 baseball, here we come!

by zempf on Aug 23, 2007 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I was just saying this last night.

Paul Byrd knows how to win.

Fausto Carmona does not know how to win.

Did you know that he was 1-10 last season? I know it's amazing because it hardly ever gets mentioned on ESPN. Obviously, he was terrible all season last year.

by Jay on Aug 23, 2007 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

We should clone Trot & Gutz and place the clones at all of the other positions as well. Since they are the only two that have any impact on the outcome of a game. Right?

by JK in CBus on Aug 23, 2007 10:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I'm obviously a huge Gutz (aka, Cow Bell) fan, but Nixon hasn't been terrible at the plate during the second half season. Since July 5th, here are the lines for the two.

Nixon:
.299/.365/.403 (85 PAs)
Gutierrez:
.278/.320/.544 (98 PAs)

Nixon gets on base more, Gutierrez hits for much more power and overall is better. But neither is completely without value. What does kill me though is comparing the defensive value of the two...Cow Bell looks so good out there and Nixon looks so bad.

by APV on Aug 23, 2007 10:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

More on the defensive value between the two...

Conveniently, The Hardball Times has Nixon listed as playing exactly twice as many innings in RF as Cow Bell so far this season (see here and here. Looking at their numbers, the truly striking one is that in half as many innings Cow Bell has 3 more outs outside of the "right field zone" (OOZ). Gutz makes the outfield smaller and should be playing in RF regularly. Nixon still has a valuable role as a guy who can get on base, but he can't play the field.

by APV on Aug 23, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Suggestion to Tribe Alive:

Edit your Diary. Delete everything you wrote. Replace by copy-pasting these two above comments by APV.

by Jay on Aug 23, 2007 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

You've really proved nothing by saying what our record is when Player X plays. It's a terrible argument. Like Ryan said, had you listed some stats that actually correlate to the players themselves, you'd have a case (and it's not even a difficult one to prove--we'd all agree with you).

I also find it odd that the all-caps WAKE UP WEDGE diary (full of ?!?!?!? and !!!!!) comes the day after Wedge batted Gutz against a right-hander.

by nickjs21 on Aug 23, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Without using stats though at this point, I believe he is correct in asserting that Gutierrez should be playing more.

by Roger Dorn on Aug 23, 2007 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

That's my point. He's correct, but used terrible reasoning.

by nickjs21 on Aug 23, 2007 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I think Tribe Alive has out Joe-Morgan'd Joe Morgan. Quite an accomplishment. W-L records with position players?? wow, quite an innovation in meaningless analysis.

SOMEBODY GET STEVE PHILLIPS ON THE PHONE.

by gte619n on Aug 23, 2007 10:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

It's sort of like hockey, with the +/- statistic.

by Gradyforpresident on Aug 23, 2007 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Some NBA blogs are doing it now, too.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 23, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

My comment is sarcasm - though it is true that the stat is gaining relevancy in the NBA.

by Gradyforpresident on Aug 23, 2007 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

despite the caps on the post or lack of statistics(which seem to be the singular driving force of many in this room), from a simple spectators view, nixon seems pretty washed up and tribe is absolutely correct in his assessment. why nixon was signed is still a mystery to me.

by rustyparts on Aug 23, 2007 10:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Last 3 years, against RHP: .297/.378/.471/.849.

by Gradyforpresident on Aug 23, 2007 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

It's not the lack of statistics so much as the attempt at looking like you're using statistics by comparing the W-L records when the two appear. I don't care if someone just says "Nixon looks done, we should start Gutz more" cause I kinda believe it too. But it's annoying when someone tries to pull a statistical justification for it out of his ass -- as he says in the post, "The research was done so we cant just say this is a typical case of complaining and moaning."

by zempf on Aug 23, 2007 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I think that was my point, that I would prefer anecdotal evidence to an erroneous cause-effect analysis.

by nickjs21 on Aug 23, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

two thoughts:

capital letters RULE.
a-rod is not good because has never won a world series.

by Brick. on Aug 23, 2007 11:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

...and Ted Williams was nothing but a LOSER.

by Fiddlesticks on Aug 23, 2007 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Please give me statistical analysis on the Wins and Loses for what uniforms we are wearing at the time. It would be just as relevant as your point.

by Toxicadam on Aug 23, 2007 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

(Insert sarcastic remark against the posters poor use of statistics)

As was pointed out up the thread, the actual player performance statistics indicate that both have played well, but honestly Gutz has played better, and is more valuable in my opinion during this stretch where the lineup is struggling to produce, because he's at least capable of driving in runs and driving himself in with those Slg. and HR numbers. Trot's been getting on base only to be left on base when the following slumping players K or ground out.

Also, completely agree that the defensive upgrade with Gutz should support giving him the majority of playing time. (70/30) maybe.

So why does Wedge wait so long to make these changes? I have to think this is a valid criticism of his managing abilities (toss in the Blake batting second and Grady hitting third).

by hans on Aug 23, 2007 11:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I agree with this. I'd like to see Gutz play regularly, sitting only occasionally or against really tough pitching matchups for him. Nixon can fill in against those tough pitchers and serve as an off the bench pinch-hitter or occasional sub for Hafner to rest his knee.

by APV on Aug 23, 2007 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

this sums it up just right if you ask me.

also, i'd like to see nixon only play when jake or carmona are on the mound (less balls in the OF - isn't Laffey a groundball guy too?)

by Brick. on Aug 23, 2007 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I hope Eric doesn't sleep through the game...

by afh4 on Aug 23, 2007 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I wonder what facial tics he has when he's dreaming (presumably of a 25-man full of Casey Blakes).

by fleerdon on Aug 23, 2007 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

or do we hope he does...

by APV on Aug 23, 2007 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I'm pretty sure if Wedge is missing, Nixon actually uses his veteran presence to make out the lineup.

by afh4 on Aug 23, 2007 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I think that would definitely involve us somehow acquiring Kevin Millar before gametime and inserting him into the cleanup slot.

by APV on Aug 23, 2007 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

So is this thread a good example of jumping all over someone for advancing a poorly reasoned argument in a good way? Or is this the wrong way to do it?

Because it seemed like Jay pounced harder than most.

by NickFantana on Aug 23, 2007 2:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I think so. Most of us would probably agree with his premise (Gutierrez should be playing over Nixon), but his reasoning didn't really prove that Gutierrez was better. A quick perusal of offensive or defensive stats would have made the case convincingly.

by Ryan on Aug 23, 2007 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I did? I don't think I was in the top five, but I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

My goal was only to point out a great example of one really good way to make the argument, and yes, to state that the original version was not a good way.

by Jay on Aug 23, 2007 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

My reading of your comment was that Tribe Alive need not even have posted since APV had done such a superior job. I'm comfortable with that as a judgment but according to the civility thread my impression was that there was a thin line between encouraging helpful posting and discouraging posting all together.

The reason I brought it up was because it seems (to me) to fall on the far side of the line when you tell a poster to delete everything he has written.

by NickFantana on Aug 23, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Point taken.

I will say that there are good and bad ways to use statistics to make an argument, and different people will be better and worse at it. I'm not sure that there's anything that can be done about that!

For those who aren't inclined toward the stats, I think everything goes better when they just say something like, "Casey Blake flat-out sucks. Don't ask me to back it up with stats, I just think he sucks, that's all." And I've been known to say stuff like that myself.

by Jay on Aug 23, 2007 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I agree that having a statistically oriented mind is a personality trait that not everyone shares. For that matter, even if you are statistically oriented there are differing degrees of comfortability.

I have noticed for myself that I can read and comprehend complicated statistical analysis and even summarize it but immediately generating my own comprehensive statistical perspective is usually impossible.

I also think that this discussion of what is and isn't acceptable hinges on what each individual views as the most effective response to these sorts of diaries. I find myself coming down on the "good-natured but caustic ridicule (ie fwembt's post below)" side of the fence and, at the risk of overgeneralizing your tendencies, you seem to come down on the "if it isn't reasonable statistical analysis it's all just shouting (ie, your post)" side of the fence.

Again, I understand it's hard to encapsulate in a little quote like that but I hope you get my drift.

by NickFantana on Aug 23, 2007 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I also don't know what a "statistically oriented mind" means, except that I'm pretty sure that most baseball fans don't really have one and pretty sure that it's not actually a "personality trait." I think you should skip figuring out what side of the fence I'm on. There is no fence. I liked fwembt's response, too, I just saw Adam's first.

I just tried explaining it again, but it came out the same. He gave a bad statistical argument, Adam gave a good one, I pointed it out. End of story. I'm trying to get your drift, but to be honest, I feel like we're talking about nothing. You don't have to try again, either, we could just let this go for another day.

by Jay on Aug 23, 2007 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

But, I want to write another 1500 speculative words! I have a bad habit of speculating at the nature of people.

I secretly want to be Aristotle and I always fail.

by NickFantana on Aug 24, 2007 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I was a bit of a pouncer. More so in my head than in my words. It's just that my order of support for an argument lies:

Relevant facts
Anecdotal evidence
Irrelevant facts

by nickjs21 on Aug 23, 2007 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Excuse me. My order of preference for support of an argument.

by nickjs21 on Aug 23, 2007 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Sorry for the double post, but this actually fits this thread better:

By the way mlb story has Wedge saying Gutz will be getting more PT against RH pitching.

Thank goodness he finally sees it.

by talonk on Aug 23, 2007 4:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

You guys all should have just agreed with me. Stats shown or not when a better player is in the lineup the team is better. That was my point.

By the way, they won today and Gutz was in with no Nixon...

by Tribe Alive on Aug 23, 2007 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

This is just an act, right?

by Gradyforpresident on Aug 23, 2007 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

I feel like this was typed by one of those shirtless guys who screams at the umpire from 500 feet away.

I spoke the words but never gave a thought to what they all could mean.

by fwembt on Aug 23, 2007 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

This place seems to be turning into a virtual middle school.

Turf Toe -- Sports skewered weakly (and weekly.)

by emd2k3 on Aug 23, 2007 9:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

"Stats shown or not when a better player is in the lineup the team is better"

With all due respect: Huh?

God truly does hate cleveland sports.

by Gradysmanldy on Aug 24, 2007 1:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: WAKE UP ERIC WEDGE

Well....yes. better players tend to result in better teams. but I believe he is trying to defend his correlation between playing player x vs. player y in regards to teams record and that that is the reason why Eric Wedge is blowin' it. Tribe Alive you were right, but there were better ways to make your point than a "weak" linked correlation between team wins and the use of nixon and gutz. the individuals statistics support your claim much better than the team record!.

by hans on Aug 24, 2007 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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