Marte II/post season rosters
I'm posing this question in review of a number of Jay's posts regarding Brandon Phillips and looking for a comparison to Andy Marte.
The question is this: to what extent can the Indians afford to have an under performing, or less than adequate position player, stay on the ML roster, and for how long ?
That is to say, Jay has been contending that Marte has not received a legitimate long term shot at playing in the ML. He has to this point received limited opportunities, according to Jay.
How long does the FO allow the "under performer" to stay on the squad ?
Currently, we've got Trot Nixon who has been performing less than what was probably expected - but with a post season birth potentially in the offing - is he more valuable on the roster due to his experiences in this format (maybe he can offer some advice to the youngsters) ?
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Brick. on Aug 24, 2007 1:28 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Gradysmanldy on Aug 24, 2007 1:28 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Here's the most current splits:
Trot Nixon last 28 days
39 PAs .371 / .436 / .457 / .893
Travis Hafner last 28 days
74 PAs .234 / .338 / .406 / .744
And I know about the vageries of the limited number of appearances. All I'm saying is Wedge could use Trot once or twice a week and give Hafner's hammy a rest.
by mauichuck on
Aug 24, 2007 1:48 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by gahnki on
Aug 24, 2007 7:13 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by JulioBernazard on Aug 24, 2007 1:40 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by emil minty on Aug 24, 2007 2:34 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Fiddlesticks on
Aug 24, 2007 2:37 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by JulioBernazard on
Aug 24, 2007 2:41 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by emil minty on
Aug 24, 2007 2:44 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by JulioBernazard on
Aug 24, 2007 2:50 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by emil minty on
Aug 24, 2007 2:58 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Also, the only reason we're having this conversation is because Hafner, Barfield and our four headed corner outfielder monster have all sucked this year. If those spots had produced even below average numbers for their positions, hiding Marte would not be that big of a deal.
by notsince48 on Aug 24, 2007 2:47 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I think that Marte should get a good look next year at third base to prove himself, at least 3 months. As Jay said, he has proven himself at each level in the minors and it's way too early to give up on him.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 24, 2007 3:04 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by columbus714 on
Aug 24, 2007 3:33 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by notsince48 on
Aug 24, 2007 4:27 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by gahnki on
Aug 24, 2007 7:17 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Look what lack of run support is doing to CC's results this year even without Marte on the team.
The Indians can't afford to carry a weak link in a must-win season. He's got to produce relatively early in the season.
by palcal on
Aug 25, 2007 2:43 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
The Indians aren't the Yankees. They're not going to have a star player at every position.
by Buckeye Brad on
Aug 25, 2007 7:41 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by mauichuck on
Aug 25, 2007 8:37 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Buckeye Brad on
Aug 25, 2007 4:45 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
C Sandy Alomar
1B Paul Sorrento
2B Carlos Baerga
3B Jim Thome
SS Omar Vizquel
OF Kenny Lofton
OF Albert Belle
OF Manny Ramirez
DH Eddie Murray
I count an All Star at every position except first base and one honest to god Hall of Famer, Eddie Murray, and at least two more guys who've got a good chance to get in - Manny and Thome, with one other guy - Omar, who might get in too. And the best of the bunch is a guy who has no shot at the HoF - Belle.
So yeah, a mid-market team like Cleveland can field a hell of an offense - if they're real lucky.
by mauichuck on
Aug 25, 2007 5:09 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I recall these guys (or maybe it was the '95 squad) spent a good portion of the season with all nine starters batting .300 or higher. I still think that's amazing, even today when I know that BA is a misleading stat.
by Fiddlesticks on
Aug 25, 2007 5:25 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by APV on
Aug 26, 2007 1:55 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by mauichuck on
Aug 26, 2007 3:11 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I think Omar makes it, with the exposure he's had in both leagues. Manny is, in my estimation, no doubt first-ballot guy (but as a Red Sock). It's very hard to tell with Thome, but I'd bet that he has less than a 50/50 chance.
by homelytourist on
Aug 26, 2007 10:04 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Omar doesn't make it. Not enough offense, and despite what some Indians fans think, he wasn't Ozzie Smith.
Manny will be in. Thome has some work to do; he needs to put together a few more very good years.
by Buckeye Brad on
Aug 26, 2007 10:35 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
A lot of folks around baseball are talking about Omar as a HOF'er. It's close, but he has a lot of going for him. Wait'll the writers start waxing poetic about his role as the "heart and soul of those great 90s ballclubs" . it'll put him closer than you think.
by homelytourist on
Aug 26, 2007 11:01 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Omar's going too, but he may hafta wait for the old timers to vote him in - but he's going.
by mauichuck on
Aug 27, 2007 8:08 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by mauichuck on
Aug 27, 2007 9:25 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
If he can pull a Ricky Henderson and squeeze in a couple more seasons, get over 700 sb, get to 2,900 or more hits... then maybe he has a shot.
I think Tim Raines should get in, for sure.
by homelytourist on
Aug 27, 2007 12:01 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by mauichuck on
Aug 27, 2007 12:34 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
There's no question he is athletic enough. He is still capable of playing CF. I think that he could be a league average LF for a couple years, in the Coco mold. He'd be 43.5 in his final season. He can't afford to be injured for any duration, in order to have a shot.
by homelytourist on
Aug 27, 2007 12:56 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
And you also have to remember, he was a great base-stealer and defender, but not for very long. He had 65 SB per season for five years, but he has less than 300 for the other 11 seasons of his career. Far, far short of Rickey in both regards.
And he won't be remembered as one of the great defensive outfielders of his era. Griffey has 10 Gold Gloves, Andruw Jones and Bonds and Edmonds have 8 each, Devon White has 7, Ichiro and Torii Hunter have 6 each, Gwynn and Finley have 5 each. Lofton is in a three-way tie for 10th in his own era, with 4 Gold Gloves, along with Grisson and Bernie Williams.
The point being, Lofton's defense and baserunning are positives but not, in and of themselves, reasons for him to get in. He needs to get in as a pure hitter, and he hasn't been nearly good enough.
by Jay on
Aug 28, 2007 12:56 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
If Omar doesn't make it, it's Grady and / or CC who have the next best chances. And that'll be a while.
Tom Hamilton may get in. That'll be neat.
Oh, btw Chuck, Bly should totally be in the HOF.
by homelytourist on
Aug 28, 2007 3:08 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Omar and Thome are both better than 50-50 at this point, and both would be a lock to go in as Indians.
by Jay on
Aug 28, 2007 4:08 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by homelytourist on
Aug 28, 2007 4:13 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Jay on
Aug 28, 2007 4:16 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by homelytourist on
Aug 28, 2007 4:34 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Jay on
Aug 29, 2007 11:33 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
The 94-95 strike only cost players about 70 games -- not exactly career-changing, even for guys like Lofton and especially Maddux who were at the delirious peaks of their powers.
by Jay on
Aug 28, 2007 12:40 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by homelytourist on
Aug 27, 2007 12:03 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
The reason that I thought you were being sarcastic is that it sounded like you expect that the Indians could do it again. I think it's been repeated numerous times that the '90s Indians will never happen again in Cleveland. Their payroll was one of the highest in baseball because of a new stadium, exciting team, and no Browns football. Our current finances cannot support that kind of team.
If you expect the Indians to field a team of "stars" at every position, it ain't gonna happen. And it doesn't need to, either. Even great teams have average or below-average players at some positions. Look at St. Louis last year - they only had a few good hitters (and one excellant one, of course) and they won the World Series. Not that we should try to emulate that strategy, but it's not right to say that the Indians can't afford to have a "weak link" in their lineup.
by Buckeye Brad on
Aug 25, 2007 6:15 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by palcal on
Aug 25, 2007 12:40 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
If a small market team wants to win, they have to give their prospects a chance to play, and prove whether or not they can cut it. Marte has not gotten that chance yet. I refuse to believe that the Indians are going to block him for another year by the mediocrity that is Casey Blake, who will likely decline next year.
by ClarkM on
Aug 25, 2007 1:50 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
More to the point, what happened this year, shows the flaw of trying to remake your roster in the middle of the year. Shapiro had money left over from the offseason to spend but he had nothing to spend it on other than Lofton, who has not been the big bat the offense needed.
by palcal on
Aug 25, 2007 2:14 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by gahnki on
Aug 25, 2007 4:03 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by palcal on
Aug 25, 2007 5:35 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
The alternative to Schmidt (.324/.373/.697) was Cesar Tovar (.335/.357/.692).
The Phils weren't contenders, and they didn't have a better alternative.
I don't disagree that Marte would benefit from a "you're our starter, don't worry, just play" scenario, but his current team isn't in the position to make that promise.
by CaptainEasy on
Aug 25, 2007 7:17 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by Jay on
Aug 25, 2007 7:58 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
OK, here are those April numbers:
Player AB AVG OBP SLG OPS
Barfield 74 .162 .195 .230 .425
Garko 55 .255 .328 .382 .710
Marte 39 .179 .220 .333 .553
Barfield was horrible offensively, but impressed immediately with his defense. He had one full, reasonably successful, MLB season on his resume, and the alternative was ... Rouse (1-16 in April)? Luna? Rivas? Asdrubal was in AA and Inglett was hurt. Eventually, when it was determined that A-Cab was an alternative, they pulled the plug on Barfield.
Garko wasn't given the starting job at 1B; Blake was. Garko had 8AB in the first 6 games.
Marte started 1-for-13, and struggled defensively.
He never got his average over .200. Then, he was DL'ed with a hamstring, did a rehab in Buffalo, but never got it going there (until this week, I guess). When he was DL'd, many people interpreted it as a positive: a chance for him to get his swing (or approach) straightened out at AAA.
Meanwhile, Blake and Garko did OK as alternatives.
Garko's .255 at the end of April was his low-water mark; he's been solid for the most part.
IMO, if Marte had mashed in Buffalo, or if Garko had flopped, Marte would have been back in Cleveland.
by CaptainEasy on
Aug 26, 2007 12:18 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
What I was disagreeing with was the assertion that the Indians have no room to allow a young player to struggle, adjust and settle in in the majors. Obviously that is not the case, because we've watched any number of everyday players struggle for a month or more -- both young players and vets -- and here we are in first place anyway.
If we have room for 100 crappy PA's from Barfield, Garko and Aaron Boone for that matter, we certainly have room for them from Marte.
by Jay on
Aug 27, 2007 1:23 AM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by APV on
Aug 27, 2007 1:34 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
'What? Me fail English...that's unpossible"
by APV on
Aug 27, 2007 1:35 PM EDT
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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by ASP on Aug 24, 2007 9:07 PM EDT 0 recs
Re: Marte II/post season rosters
by APV on
Aug 24, 2007 10:58 PM EDT
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