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Marte II/post season rosters

Todd_tiny by SpringTrainingFun on

I'm posing this question in review of a number of Jay's posts regarding Brandon Phillips and looking for a comparison to Andy Marte.

The question is this: to what extent can the Indians afford to have an under performing, or less than adequate position player, stay on the ML roster, and for how long ?  

That is to say, Jay has been contending that Marte has not received a legitimate long term shot at playing in the ML.  He has to this point received limited opportunities, according to Jay.

How long does the FO allow the "under performer" to stay on the squad ?

Currently, we've got Trot Nixon who has been performing less than what was probably expected - but with a post season birth potentially in the offing - is he more valuable on the roster due to his experiences in this format (maybe he can offer some advice to the youngsters) ?

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Re: Marte II/post season rosters
i think at the beginning of next season, marte is this years gutz.  he is on the squad and works his way into a role by the end of the year due to straight opportunity here and there, more opportunity if he performs in those and more based on other players' underperformance or injury.  nixon will be gone and blake assumes a 3b/super utility role, phasing out 3B as Marte phases in.

by Brick. on Aug 24, 2007 1:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I think that Trot Nixon has a place on this team's post-season roster, probably as just a pinch hitting option and clubhouse presence. I know that we look at his "grittiness" as a joke sometimes, but I legitimately want that man in the clubhouse when we go to the playoffs.
God truly does hate cleveland sports.

by Gradysmanldy on Aug 24, 2007 1:28 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Surely Trot could DH against right-handed pitching once and awhile and give Pronk a break.  Right now, Hafner's about the only guy on the team Trot can out run, plus he's hitting better than Pronk.

Here's the most current splits:

Trot Nixon last 28 days
39 PAs .371 / .436 / .457 / .893

Travis Hafner last 28 days
74 PAs .234 / .338 / .406 / .744

And I know about the vageries of the limited number of appearances.  All I'm saying is Wedge could use Trot once or twice a week and give Hafner's hammy a rest.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 24, 2007 1:48 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Very true. I've made jokes about Trot, but he is a ballplayer and he knows what to do.
I heard that L.Carr is only going to dress 25 players this Sat........the rest can dress themselves!

by gahnki on Aug 24, 2007 7:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Blake's lack of hitting wRiSP makes me want to see Marte... sometimes.

by JulioBernazard on Aug 24, 2007 1:40 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
i'm not even sure "berth" would make sense there.

by emil minty on Aug 24, 2007 2:34 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I could be wrong, but I think the last paragraph says that Trot Nixon is expecting, and will give birth during the playoffs.  No wonder he's so slow!

by Fiddlesticks on Aug 24, 2007 2:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
i hate to be too literal, but i think technically speaking there is a berth presently, as in 2.5 games, and it doesn't really make sense to say that there is one in the offing (thereby implying that there isn't one already).  

by emil minty on Aug 24, 2007 2:44 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
The Indians don't have the berth until they clinch something, so it is still "in the offing."

by JulioBernazard on Aug 24, 2007 2:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
i think you may be correct, if in "playoff berth" one takes "berth" to mean position/role, as opposed to it's other meaning, where it implies the amount of space between things.  it does make more sense that way.

by emil minty on Aug 24, 2007 2:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I think, given the opportunity, Marte can put up Casey Blake's numbers.  And we won't have to pay him $4M.

Also, the only reason we're having this conversation is because Hafner, Barfield and our four headed corner outfielder monster have all sucked this year.  If those spots had produced even below average numbers for their positions, hiding Marte would not be that big of a deal.

by notsince48 on Aug 24, 2007 2:47 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Hafner is still producing above average numbers (21st in the AL in OBP, and he still leads the team) but he's just not hitting with power like he has the past three years.  Gutz should be starting most days in right field, but Nixon still has a place on this team as an occasional starter and pinch-hitter.  And as much as the value of leadership and clubhouse presence is often overstated by the media, I do think that Trot would be valuable for the team in the playoffs considering most of our players have never been there before.

I think that Marte should get a good look next year at third base to prove himself, at least 3 months.  As Jay said, he has proven himself at each level in the minors and it's way too early to give up on him.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 24, 2007 3:04 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I agree with everything the great great great Brutus Buckeye has to say on this subject. He is an awesomely awesome commenter. Oh yeah and go Bucks!

by columbus714 on Aug 24, 2007 3:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
You have to give Marte a full year, without the threat of a demotion hanging over his head.  In his first 400 at bats, Mike Schmidt batted under .200.  There's a learning curve and you have to give Marte a chance to play through it.

by notsince48 on Aug 24, 2007 4:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
One example does not make a trend. I don't think you can give him a full year with no limitations. We are a playoff caliber team and we can't afford to fool around with that. You let him start at third next year, keep Blake as a super utility layer, and go from there. Almost like this year. Hopefully, he doesn't get injured again.
I heard that L.Carr is only going to dress 25 players this Sat........the rest can dress themselves!

by gahnki on Aug 24, 2007 7:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
2008 is probably CC's last season in Cleveland.
Look what lack of run support is doing to CC's results this year even without Marte on the team.
The Indians can't afford to carry a weak link in a must-win season.  He's got to produce relatively early in the season.

by palcal on Aug 25, 2007 2:43 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
So are you suggesting we stick with Blake at third?  He's not a "weak link?"  

The Indians aren't the Yankees.  They're not going to have a star player at every position.  

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 25, 2007 7:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Clearly you didn't watch the late '90s Indians - they did have a star player at every offensive position.
LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 25, 2007 8:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
You're being sarcastic, right?

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 25, 2007 4:45 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Here's the '94 Indians roster, in case you've forgotten:
C   Sandy Alomar
1B Paul Sorrento
2B Carlos Baerga
3B Jim Thome
SS Omar Vizquel
OF Kenny Lofton
OF  Albert Belle
OF  Manny Ramirez
DH Eddie Murray

I count an All Star at every position except first base and one honest to god Hall of Famer, Eddie Murray, and at least two more guys who've got a good chance to get in - Manny and Thome, with one other guy - Omar, who might get in too.  And the best of the bunch is a guy who has no shot at the HoF - Belle.

So yeah, a mid-market team like Cleveland can field a hell of an offense - if they're real lucky.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 25, 2007 5:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
There's a lot of people who think Lofton is getting into the HoF as well.  That's six "Hall of Fame calibre" players in the batting order (although admittedly it's not Omar's bat that's going to punch his ticket.)

I recall these guys (or maybe it was the '95 squad) spent a good portion of the season with all nine starters batting .300 or higher.  I still think that's amazing, even today when I know that BA is a misleading stat.

by Fiddlesticks on Aug 25, 2007 5:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I love Lofton, but "a lot of people" are wrong about him getting into the HOF.  He's a definite Hall of Very Good member, but barring Barry Bonds-like career as an 40+ year old, there's not a chance he ends up in Cooperstown.

by APV on Aug 26, 2007 1:55 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Agreed. Maybe the old timers vote him in in 2038
LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 26, 2007 3:11 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I hope he hangs on for 4 or 5 more years, so that he gets a shot at 3,000 hits.  Even that might not be enough for the HOF, but it would get him damn close (especially if he gets a WS win or two in that time).  He looks like he could do it, if that's his goal.  

I think Omar makes it, with the exposure he's had in both leagues.  Manny is, in my estimation, no doubt first-ballot guy (but as a Red Sock).  It's very hard to tell with Thome, but I'd bet that he has less than a 50/50 chance.

by homelytourist on Aug 26, 2007 10:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
No way Lofton makes it.  He's been good for a while, but he wasn't great for long enough.

Omar doesn't make it.  Not enough offense, and despite what some Indians fans think, he wasn't Ozzie Smith.

Manny will be in.  Thome has some work to do; he needs to put together a few more very good years.  

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 26, 2007 10:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
He doesn't have to be Ozzie Smith.  No one is Ozzie Smith.  He's simply the next closest SS, and he has 11 Gold gloves, second only to Smith, and a higher fielding percentage than anyone, inc'l Smith (attacks on his range at the position end up to be not totally unjustified but still pretty flimsy).  If he plays another season, he could break 2700 career hits.
A lot of folks around baseball are talking about Omar as a HOF'er.   It's close, but he has a lot of going for him.  Wait'll the writers start waxing poetic about his role as the "heart and soul of those great 90s ballclubs" .  it'll put him closer than you think.

by homelytourist on Aug 26, 2007 11:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Thome's got a shot at 600 HRs - so does Manny.  If Thome get's 600, he's a shoo-in.

Omar's going too, but he may hafta wait for the old timers to vote him in - but he's going.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 27, 2007 8:08 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
No player, except Pete Rose, with more than 3,000 hits has failed to make the HoF - no player.
LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 27, 2007 9:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
What if Lofton limps into 3,000 as a 45 year old? Because he lost some of his prime due to the strike, I think that 2,900 is a virtual 3,000 in his case. He has several Gold Gloves and was a regualr all-star for a little while, but could use some more accolades in support of his canidacy.  A WS win would be huge for him.  wink, wink.
If he can pull a Ricky Henderson and squeeze in a couple more seasons, get over 700 sb, get to 2,900 or more hits... then maybe he has a shot.

I think Tim Raines should get in, for sure.

by homelytourist on Aug 27, 2007 12:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
As of today, Kenny's got 2,403 hits and he turned 40 on May 31st of this year.  The chances of him picking up 500 more hits is remote - 600 impossible.
LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Aug 27, 2007 12:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Let's say he get in ~25 more hits this season, which would put him 475 shy of 2,900. 3 more seasons at ~ 155 h, which would require 500 abs a season.  Unlikely, especially as he's suited to a platoon at this point, but possible.  
There's no question he is athletic enough.  He is still capable of playing CF.  I think that he could be a league average LF for a couple years, in the Coco mold. He'd be 43.5 in his final season.  He can't afford to be injured for any duration, in order to have a shot.

by homelytourist on Aug 27, 2007 12:56 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Okay ... he's not getting to 3000.

And you also have to remember, he was a great base-stealer and defender, but not for very long.  He had 65 SB per season for five years, but he has less than 300 for the other 11 seasons of his career.  Far, far short of Rickey in both regards.

And he won't be remembered as one of the great defensive outfielders of his era.  Griffey has 10 Gold Gloves, Andruw Jones and Bonds and Edmonds have 8 each, Devon White has 7, Ichiro and Torii Hunter have 6 each, Gwynn and Finley have 5 each.  Lofton is in a three-way tie for 10th in his own era, with 4 Gold Gloves, along with Grisson and Bernie Williams.

The point being, Lofton's defense and baserunning are positives but not, in and of themselves, reasons for him to get in.  He needs to get in as a pure hitter, and he hasn't been nearly good enough.

by Jay on Aug 28, 2007 12:56 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I'm trying to construct a scenario in which Kenny makes it into the hall, just as an exercise.  Even under the best circumstances, he's still a ways off.  Which is a pity, as exciting as he was at his peak.  If not a single player for the 90s makes it in, I'll be upset.  I'd love to see a player get inducted as an Indian in my lifetime.  Right now, it seems that our hopes rest with Omar, who obviously wasn't the most important player of that era to have a long tenure with the club (I rank Belle, Ramirez, Thome, Lofton, and possibly Sandy Alomar ahead of him).  
If Omar doesn't make it, it's Grady and / or CC who have the next best chances.  And that'll be a while.
Tom Hamilton may get in.  That'll be neat.

Oh, btw Chuck, Bly should totally be in the HOF.

by homelytourist on Aug 28, 2007 3:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Manny most probably will wear a Boston cap.  We needed for him to get traded -- anywhere -- in order to avoid that.  Most of his HR were achieved with the Red Sox, and by year's end his hit and RBI totals will tip over in that direction as well.

Omar and Thome are both better than 50-50 at this point, and both would be a lock to go in as Indians.

by Jay on Aug 28, 2007 4:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I keep forgeting about Thome, though I sort of wrote him off after the way he left, and I'm not as impressed with his career production.  He still has a lot of work to do to make my ballot fwiw.

by homelytourist on Aug 28, 2007 4:13 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Meaning, if Thome makes it as an Indian and nobody else does ... you'll still be upset?

by Jay on Aug 28, 2007 4:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I be pleased, sure, but I'll hope they keep that Thome statue mothballed.

by homelytourist on Aug 28, 2007 4:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
It's being converted into a Fausto Carmona statue even as we speak.

by Jay on Aug 29, 2007 11:33 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
This isn't your usual good sense talking here.

The 94-95 strike only cost players about 70 games -- not exactly career-changing, even for guys like Lofton and especially Maddux who were at the delirious peaks of their powers.

by Jay on Aug 28, 2007 12:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
(I realize Ricky Henderson was a HOFr by the early 90s)

by homelytourist on Aug 27, 2007 12:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Yes, in the 90s the Indians fielded a team with a "star" at every position.  In fact, one year (I think it was '98 or '99), I think every starting position player was a former All-Star.

The reason that I thought you were being sarcastic is that it sounded like you expect that the Indians could do it again.  I think it's been repeated numerous times that the '90s Indians will never happen again in Cleveland.  Their payroll was one of the highest in baseball because of a new stadium, exciting team, and no Browns football.  Our current finances cannot support that kind of team.  

If you expect the Indians to field a team of "stars" at every position, it ain't gonna happen.  And it doesn't need to, either.  Even great teams have average or below-average players at some positions.  Look at St. Louis last year - they only had a few good hitters (and one excellant one, of course) and they won the World Series.  Not that we should try to emulate that strategy, but it's not right to say that the Indians can't afford to have a "weak link" in their lineup.

by Buckeye Brad on Aug 25, 2007 6:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
You have to work Cabrera, Peralta, Barfield, and Gomez into the equation.

by palcal on Aug 25, 2007 12:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
The chances of Chris Gomez being on our opening day roster are very slim.

If a small market team wants to win, they have to give their prospects a chance to play, and prove whether or not they can cut it.  Marte has not gotten that chance yet.  I refuse to believe that the Indians are going to block him for another year by the mediocrity that is Casey Blake, who will likely decline next year.

by ClarkM on Aug 25, 2007 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
If Blake declines next year, is he worth a roster spot more than Gomez?

More to the point, what happened this year, shows the flaw of trying to remake your roster in the middle of the year.  Shapiro had money left over from the offseason to spend but he had nothing to spend it on other than Lofton, who has not been the big bat the offense needed.

by palcal on Aug 25, 2007 2:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Money played no part in our inability to make a trade in the middle of a season.
I heard that L.Carr is only going to dress 25 players this Sat........the rest can dress themselves!

by gahnki on Aug 25, 2007 4:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Right, so his dry powder was worthless.  The point I was making is that he would have been better off spending the money before the season.

by palcal on Aug 25, 2007 5:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
In Schmidt's rookie year, the Phils weren't contenders; the finished 71-91.  Also, despite his .196 BA, Schmidt's OBP was .324.

The alternative to Schmidt (.324/.373/.697) was Cesar Tovar (.335/.357/.692).

The Phils weren't contenders, and they didn't have a better alternative.

I don't disagree that Marte would benefit from a "you're our starter, don't worry, just play" scenario, but his current team isn't in the position to make that promise.

by CaptainEasy on Aug 25, 2007 7:17 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
How is it any different from Barfield and Garko this season?  Take a look at their April numbers.  Unbelievably short and selective memories around here, for such a smart bunch.

by Jay on Aug 25, 2007 7:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
OK, your assertion is: Barfield and Garko were allowed to struggle and keep their jobs, but Marte wasn't; right?

OK, here are those April numbers:


Player    AB   AVG  OBP  SLG  OPS
Barfield  74  .162 .195 .230 .425
Garko     55  .255 .328 .382 .710
Marte     39  .179 .220 .333 .553

Barfield was horrible offensively, but impressed immediately with his defense.  He had one full, reasonably successful, MLB season on his resume, and the alternative was ... Rouse (1-16 in April)?  Luna?  Rivas?  Asdrubal was in AA and Inglett was hurt.  Eventually, when it was determined that A-Cab was an alternative, they pulled the plug on Barfield.

Garko wasn't given the starting job at 1B; Blake was.  Garko had 8AB in the first 6 games.

Marte started 1-for-13, and struggled defensively.
He never got his average over .200.  Then, he was DL'ed with a hamstring, did a rehab in Buffalo, but never got it going there (until this week, I guess).  When he was DL'd, many people interpreted it as a positive: a chance for him to get his swing (or approach) straightened out at AAA.

Meanwhile, Blake and Garko did OK as alternatives.
Garko's .255 at the end of April was his low-water mark; he's been solid for the most part.

IMO, if Marte had mashed in Buffalo, or if Garko had flopped, Marte would have been back in Cleveland.

 

by CaptainEasy on Aug 26, 2007 12:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Your response indicates that you think I was criticizing the Indians for not giving Marte more of an opportunity.  I was not.  I understand the reasons and basically agree with the decisions.

What I was disagreeing with was the assertion that the Indians have no room to allow a young player to struggle, adjust and settle in in the majors.  Obviously that is not the case, because we've watched any number of everyday players struggle for a month or more -- both young players and vets -- and here we are in first place anyway.

If we have room for 100 crappy PA's from Barfield, Garko and Aaron Boone for that matter, we certainly have room for them from Marte.

by Jay on Aug 27, 2007 1:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Hafner's struggles this year have really made it harded to ignore the holes in our lineup.  Last year he put 25 win shares, this year he's on pace to do half that.  It's a lot easier to not notice Boone/Hollandswoth/Gutierrez/Shoppach, who collectively had about 700 PAs last season despite none of them have an OPS+ above 79, with the Pronk of old.  

by APV on Aug 27, 2007 1:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
I of corse ment "harder" knot "harded".

'What?  Me fail English...that's unpossible"

by APV on Aug 27, 2007 1:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
Marte has been hot in AAA the past week or so.

by ASP on Aug 24, 2007 9:07 PM EDT   0 recs

Re: Marte II/post season rosters
He had a great day today in the doubleheader

by APV on Aug 24, 2007 10:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

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