Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

by fwembt on Sep 29, 2007 10:47 PM EDT Comment 145 comments

The ALDS starts on either Wednesday or Thursday so I took it upon myself to compare the Indians to the Yankees at every position. For the purposes of this I took the three frontline starters, top three relievers, top five bench players and the entire lineup. (All statistics before Saturday's game)

Starters: (W-L, ERA, PRC)

CLE- Sabathia (19-7, 3.21, 131), Carmona (19-8, 3.06, 116), Westbrook (6-9, 4.32, 56).

NYY- Wang (19-7, 3.70, 90), Pettitte (14-9, 3.81, 92), Clemens (6-6, 4.18, 38).

Even Suzyn Waldman would admit that the Indians have the best one-two in the league. Clemens may have a slight margin over Westbrook but neither has been brilliant. If a fourth starter is needed Paul Byrd will give a slight advantage over Mussian or Hughes. The PRC of Sabathia and Carmona is astounding. This one is easy.

Edge: Cleveland

Relief Pitching (ERA, WHIP, FIP, LOB%)

CLE- Lewis (2.20, 1.22, 2.58, 80.9%), Perez (1.66, .89, 3.08, 84.8%), Betancourt (1.47, .76, 2.25, 86.4%).

NYY- Vizcaino (4.30, 1.45, 4.12, 72.1%), Farnsworth (4.73, 1.46, 4.92, 70.3%), Chamberlain (.38, .76, 1.94, 96.6%).

The state of affairs in the Yankee bullpen is such that Vizcaino and Farnsworth are one and three in appearances. For the Indians, the bullpen has made a tremendous impact on the season. Innings 7 and 8 will be split between Lewis, Perez and Betancourt. Loathe as we may be to admit, Chamberlain has been fantastic. Still, this one is not that close.

Major Edge: Cleveland

Closer (ERA, SV, FIP, WHIP)

CLE- Borowski (5.15, 44, 4.12, 1.44)

NYY- Rivera (3.15, 30, 2.71, 1.12)

Borowski allows way too many baserunners. While this may the product of a high BABip, it doesn't really matter, nearly a runner and a half reach per inning. Rivera has not been as dominant in the past but he has been better than Borowski.

Edge: New York

First Base (BA/OBP/SLG, HR, RC)

CLE- Garko (291/361/485, 21, 72)

NYY- Mientkiewicz (272/343/432, 5, 24)

Mientkiewicz has taken most of the time at 1st away from Andy Phillips. He has hit at a decent rate but for basically no power. Garko has been a nice surprise by continuing last year's success. His defense is not as good as Mientkiewicz but the Yankee has lost a bit and Garko is no slouch.

Edge: Cleveland

Second Base

CLE- Cabrera (279/345/422, 3, 25)

NYY- Cano (306/353/487, 19, 95)

We all love Asdrubal but he has not had a full year to contribute. Cano has been fantastic again. Cabrera is considerably better in the field but Cano just rakes.

Edge: New York

Shortstop

CLE- Peralta (270/341/432, 21, 85)

NYY- Jeter (322/387/449, 12, 113)

For all the hype, Jeter is not a noticeably better hitter than Jhonny. Jhonny has more pop in his bat and is more patient at the plate. Jeter will hit a few more doubles and triples. In the field there is also little difference. Both players have a mediocre RZR but Peralta has made nearly twice as many plays outside of his zone (OOZ).

Edge: Push

Third Base

Blake- (269/337/437, 18, 68)

A-Rod- (312/420/644, 54, 161)

We love you Casey but this is no contest. A-Rod is arguably the best player in the game.

Major Edge: NYY

Outfield

CLE- Lofton (298/369/413, 7, 79), Sizemore (280/393/466, 24, 124), Gutierrez (264/317/475, 13, 36).

NYY- Matsui (285/367/488, 25, 93), Cabrera (274/328/392, 8, 71), Abreu (283/368/447, 16, 102).

This ended up being closer than I thought. The defensive edge is all to the Indians, who employ three center fielders. The Yankees are average at best in the field. The Yankee outfield is renowned for really crushing the ball but actually posts a lower slugging in two of the three spots.

Edge: Push

Catcher:

CLE-Martinez (298/371/504, 25, 106)

NYY- Posada (337/426/544, 20, 100)

Posada is having a career year. Martinez just keeps getting better. Neither is great at shutting down the running game but both are quite competent. Both will hit to the alleys with decent power. This is as close as a position as there is on the field. Shoppach will see time here if Byrd starts, whether or not this is a good thing is debatable.

Edge: Push, again

Designated Hitter

CLE- Hafner (264/384/449, 24, 93).

NYY- Giambi (232/349/431, 14, 39), Damon (270/351/396, 12, 85).

Nothing overwhelming here, which is a real dissapointment for the Indians. Giambi and Damon will both see some time here, with Damon also playing in the outfield. If Hafner gets hot he can carry a team, the same can not be said of either Yankee.

Edge: Cleveland

Bench

CLE- Micheals, Nixon, Barfield, Shoppach, Gomez.

NYY- Betemit, Duncan, Molina, Phillips, Giambi/Damon.

J-Mike and JBarf both spent some time starting this year. The Giambi/Damon player off the bench for the Yankees will also have some time starting. Betemit is a more powerful version of Gomez who does not make contact as frequently. Shoppach and Molina both can hit a bit but Shoppach supplies more power. There is no real standout player on either bench.

Edge: Push

Prediction: Indians in 3. The Yankees can hit but the advantage is not so big as the national news media would have you think. The pitching is a marked advantage for the Indians. Sabathia and Carmona are the best one-two the Indians have ever sent to the playoffs. Five years ago, Clemens against Westbrook would have been a nightmare matchup for the Indians, now it is a very winnable game.

[This is just a skeletal rundown. There are players who may appear for an inning or two whom I have not mentioned. All statistics are from The Hardball Times, all player positions used for projection of lineups are from ESPN.]

Poll

Outcome of the Series?

Indians in 5

25 votes

Yankees in 3

3 votes

Yankees in 4

6 votes

Yankees in 5

3 votes

Indians in 3

12 votes

Indians in 4

61 votes

110 votes | Poll has closed

0 recs | Comment 145 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

No catcher analysis?

With the Red Sox getting a home field, its time to consider Byrd vs. (Mussina/Hughes/Kennedy).

At shortstop Jeter had been demonstrably more productive, as much as I hate to admit.

by crazymoloh on Sep 29, 2007 10:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Ok, that was a cut and paste error. It is there now. Thanks.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Sep 29, 2007 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Not to be a downer on your hard work, but I don't think it makes too much sense to assess the hitting strengths on a position-by-position basis. The lineup is essentially one entity, so an overall look might be more useful. If anything, splits vs. RHP/LHP, vs. Power/Finesse could be more telling....

A better analysis would be a #1 hitter vs. #1 hitter, and so on. Even that, I believe, would not be not be very illuminating.

by crazymoloh on Sep 30, 2007 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I happen to like a breakdown on a position by position basis, which could explain why I did it this way. I guess to each his own. I think that the overall look is a bit simplistic.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Sep 30, 2007 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I don't know why more isn't being made of the Yankees injury/defense uselessness. Matsui's getting his knee drained and is expected to play very little defense in the first round. That makes Damon the left fielder, no? Giambi will have to play first to get in the game if Matsui's the DH.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Matsui has not been playing the field much for over a month so his knee getting drained isn't too big of a deal.

Damon is the starting LF.

Fear the Evil Empire

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

If it were my list, these would be the differences:

Starters - C.C. is a notch better than Wang, Fausto is two notches better than Pettitte. Westbrook has been at his very best in September (and the second half generally), while Clemens will be making only his second start in five weeks. Not just edge, major edge.
Closer - Major edge for Yankees.
Shortstop - Edge for Yankees, the difference in OBP alone is significant.
Outfield - Edge for Indians. The Yankees have the edge in the batter's box, but as you note, it's not by that much, as the Indians have the best hitter in either outfield and no real weak spot. Outside the batter's box, however, it's a slaughter. The Indians have twice as many SB and half as many GIDP, and arguably the four best defenders on either roster -- six if you count Blake and Francisco. Throw in a dash of platoon fiddling, and the Indians have the edge.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I disagree that Fausto is two notches better than Pettitte.

He has been the Yanks' best big game pitcher since 1995 and has been outstanding since the All-Star Break.

Yes, the Tribe has the edge in raw numbers, but Pettitte has as much playoff experience than any starter in the AL.

Fear the Evil Empire

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Wow ... two big claims, nothing to back either of them up ... and totally wrong.

First, let's talk about "outstanding since the All-Star break." You can just click here to see all major league pitchers ranked by ERA since the All-Star break. You will note.

Fausto Carmona - #1 in the majors -- including NL pitchers who don't have to deal with the DH.
Carmona's ERA is in fact a full half-run lower than any other AL pitcher.
Incidentally, that next AL pitcher is Sabathia.
After that, it's Beckett, Lackey, Westbrook, Escobar ... lokoing for Pettitte ... oh, there he is ...
Andy Pettite - in a five-way for #25 in the majors with a bunch of NL starters.
Pettitte's ERA is 1.6 runs worse than Carmona, 1.1 runs worse than Sabathia, and 0.4 runs worse than Westbrook.
Wang is not quite as good as Pettitte.

So if by "outstanding" you mean "the best guy on a terrible Yankees pitching staff," then yes, he's been outstanding.

Now then.

The "big-game pitcher" thing is crap. Look it up. He's had plenty of total bed-crapping incidents in his postseason career:

2005 NLCS, Game 1, 5 ER in 6 IP
2003 ALCS, Game 6, 4 ER in 5 IP
2002 ALDS, Game 2, 4 ER in 3 IP
2001 World Series, Game 6, 6 ER in 2 IP
2000 ALDS, Game 5, 5 ER in 3.2 IP
1999 World Series, Game 3, 5 ER in 3.2 IP
1996 World Series, Game 1, 7 ER in 2.1 IP

And who can forget his trouble with the Indians?

1998 ALCS, Game 3, 6 ER in 4.2 IP
1997 ALDS, Game 2, 7 ER in 5 IP

Now I'm not saying Pettitte is a bad postseason pitcher. These are only his worst starts. He's also had several mediocre starts, several good starts, and several really great starts.

The point is just this: A guy with nine horrendous postseason starts on his resume is clearly not deserving of any kind of special laurels for being a "great big-game pitcher." All nine of these games were big, and he totally sucked in all nine.

And his experience apparently only means he's capable of giving an average performance under pressure. Great for him. No points.

In sum:

Carmona is two notches better than Pettitte.

Deal with it.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Well, my comments weren't meant to rile you up but they obviously did.

If getting riled up makes you feel better, so be it. But you don't have to be rude.

With all the great stats you illustrated in favor of Carmona, let's also point out that he started two games against the Yanks this season and the Tribe lost both of them.

He was outdueled by Hughes at the Jake in August with A-Rod going yard on him twice.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

..Therefore, Pettite is a better pitcher. Unassailable, apparently.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

The point being is that Carmona has never pitched in the postseason on the big stage.

No pitcher on either team has more postseason experience than Pettitte.

Besides, regular season stats really don't mean jack for either team once October rolls around.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

With all the great stats you illustrated in favor of Carmona, let's also point out that he started two games against the Yanks this season and the Tribe lost both of them....Besides, regular season stats really don't mean jack for either team once October rolls around.

QED.

I will submit to you that ERA since the All-Star break bears a vastly more direct correlation to post-season performance by a starting pitcher. Doesn't this make sense, that how a guy is pitching late in a given season has more to do with how he pitches in October than does the number of times (particularly the number of middling times) he has pitched in October in his career?

Or, in this particular instance, that the guy who has been by many measures THE BEST STARTER IN BASEBALL since the All-Star break is the guy you'd rather have on the mound than the 25th-best starter?

Joe Torre would swap Andy Pettitte for Fausto Carmona right now before you could type "big-game experience."

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You you'd rather see Hughes than Mussina in Game 4 ... yet somehow Pettitte has a significant advantage over Carmona because he's a veteran?

Well, I grant you, you never really know what a guy does in his first postseason game, but you never really know anything about any game.

Those intimate with how Carmona's career has developed are not concerned with his mental toughness. Personally, I'm more worried about the long layoff.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Preferring Hughes over Mussina is a lack of trust in Mussina because of the way he has pitched all season. It has nothing to do with his tenure in the big leagues.

Pettitte is trustworthy because he has been the Yanks best big game pitcher all season. Not to mention the four rings on his fingers.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Do the rings help him pitch? I was unaware he wore them on the mound. Just moronic.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Sep 30, 2007 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

The rings indicate that he's succeeded on the biggest stage a number of times.

If you don't think experience matters then I don't know what else to to tell you.

Is it the be all end all to determine a pitcher's fate?

Of course not. But, it certainly doesn't hurt and can only help.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Yes, Pettite has succeeded in the playoffs a number of times. He's also failed a number of times, as shown above. Experience is nice, but skill matters more, and right now (in 2007) Carmona is a better pitcher than Pettite. That fact cannot be argued. And I'll take great skill over great experience any day of the week.

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2007 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I guess we'll find out for sure on Fri.

No question Carmona had an excellent season, but that doesn't mean those numbers will translate in October.

A-Rod is the best player in baseball but that doesn't mean he's going to rake in the postseason.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

What is does mean is that there is a better chance that Carmona will pitch well. Why? Because he is simply a better pitcher. Experience is a sometimes over-relied on crutch argument. Tom Glavine's world of experience surely did not help him today.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Sep 30, 2007 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'm not debating whether Carmona is the better pitcher right now. He clearly is.

But that doesn't mean jack on the biggest stage and one of these guys has been doing this for over a decade and the other for one season.

And I already told you that experience isn't the be all end all in determining a pitcher's fate.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I guess this is where we disagree. I think that it means much more than jack, it clearly shows that Carmona is the better pitcher. You can talk experience all you like but all the experience in the world is not suddenly going to make Pettitte a better pitcher than he is.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Sep 30, 2007 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Well, guess what? The better pitcher doesn't always win, just like the best team doesn't always win.

Look no further than the last two series the Yanks tangled with the Red Sox.

Both teams matched up their rotations to have Pettitte, Clemens, and Wang go up against Beckett, Matsuzaka, and Schilling.

Most everyone would have thought the Red Sox had a big edge in those series because they had the better pitching.

It didn't turn out that way because the Yanks swept one series and won 2 of 3 in the other.

My point is that the better pitching on paper doesn't really matter that much once the teams take the field.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Two main points!

Hello vmack,

No offense, but two main points regarding your implied argument that Pettitte will be better than Carmona because of his past postseason experience:

1. Josh Beckett of the 2003 Marlins had NO postseason experience, yet compiled a 2.11 ERA in 5 postseason starts, including that impressive Game 6 2003 World Series performance against the Yankees in Yankee Stadium, so it's not like Carmona can't pitch like he did in the regular season in the postseason just because he has no postseason experience. Also, in case you were wondering about Beckett's very first career postseason start in that postseason, it was against the Giants in the 2003 NLDS and was successful in all regards except BB/IP, further proving my point about being able to perform at a high level like one performed in the regular season, even without past postseason experience:

0-1, 1.29 ERA, 7.0 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 5 BB, 9 K, 1 WP.

2. I think Jay's point still stands, regardless of whether Carmona pitches well in the postseason or not; Carmona is two notches ahead of Pettitte when it comes to how they did in the 2007 regular season, which is what Jay was basing that comment on, and probably how most analyses are being made in regards to who has the better chance of winning the series. Are you going to rely on what the players did this year or what they did in past years? I'm not saying having past postseason experience should be ignored or overlooked, but it's also NOT a guarantee for those who have it of outperforming those who've had no postseason experience, as point #1 proves above. As Jay and others have pointed out in this thread, Pettitte, like many other postseason players, have had good and bad postseason performances, and those bad postseason performances were after having previous experiences in the postseason, which again proves that just because you have postseason experience doesn't guarantee you'll perform better than those who don't have it, which is why I think you still have to give Carmona an edge in a head-to-head matchup, based on what they've done THIS year. That doesn't mean Carmona is a lock to outduel Pettitte, as there are no absolutes in baseball, but all the available evidence would seem to suggest that Carmona would be the better bet to outduel Pettitte than the other way around. Only time will tell if that holds true or not.

Just my 2 cents - no offense.

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Oct 1, 2007 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sabathia is another example!!

Hello vmack,

C.C. Sabathia is another example of a player who performed well in the postseason with no prior playoff experience. Here's his line from his Game 3 2001 ALDS performance against the playoff-experienced Seattle Mariners:

1-0, 3.00 ERA, 6.0 IP, 6 H, 2 ER, 5 BB, 5 K.

Again, outside of the BB/IP, the other stats were very solid in his first career postseason start against a Mariners team that included several players from their 2000 team that went to the postseason and upset the favored White Sox in the ALDS, proving again that prior postseason success is not a guarantee they'll outperform players/teams with no prior postseason experience.

Just my 2 cents - no offense. :-)

Go Tribe! :-)

by indiansfan on Oct 1, 2007 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

vmack, the rings indicate that his teams have succeed on the biggest stage. Surely you understand that.

Pettitte has both succeeded and failed on the biggest stage, many times over in each case.

Are you just blocking out the list of nine absolutely terrible postseason starts above? The three worst ones were in the World Series, by the way -- 18 runs in 8 IP in those three games.

But yes, he does have the four rings.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Oh...that's not even close to a riled-up Jay

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I wasn't rude. You made claims that were simply not true. I demonstrated that.

I don't think specific game results tell us much about a pitcher. Westbrook has two starts against the Yankees in which he won 22-0 and 19-1. Does that mean that will happen in Game 3? Of course not.

Since you asked, though the Yankees faced Carmona twice, and he allowed exactly one walk and one solo-shot HR each time. They scored a few runs basically on seeing-eye grounders and a handful of line drives. Based on any number of ways of looking at it, the Yankees are likely to score about three runs off Carmona. Will that be enough to win?

If pretending that I'm rude rather than you're just wrong makes you feel better, then you need to adjust your attitude. You're a guest here, and this is not the typical internet forum. You will be expected to behave here in the way you conduct yourself, and if you make dubious claims, others are going to hold you accountable.

When that happens, you'd best not get pissy.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You make me laugh.

This forum is public as far as I can see, which means you don't make the rules here.

I'm not at all trying to cause trouble, but I'm not going to be addressed like I'm a 10 year old.

If you don't like my comments, ignore them.

If you want to spit out all of the stats for this season (which I think is futile most of the time), then you should also not that the Tribe scored a grand total of 17 runs in 6 games against the Yanks this season.

Would 3 runs be enough to beat Carmona? It might be if the Indians' offense continue that trend.

They also lost four games pitched by rookies and only one of them is worth a damn (Hughes).

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Actually, I do make the rules here. Ryan and I are the moderators of this site. But if you behave yourself, I will, too.

Your other points are just as valid as mine. I guess we should be relieved not to be facing any rookies!

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Sigh. This is gonna get old quick, isn't it?

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Maybe, maybe not. If he's just an immature troll, he'll be gone soon. If he really wants to have some good baseball discussion, he'll stick around. Too soon to tell.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Oh, I just meant the influx. I'm worried that all our post-season chatter is going to get drowned out by the profane buzzing noise of fake Queens accents.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Please take good luck at the Ground Rules for this site before posting again. Next time, I will just delete your account and all your posts entirely.

This is not a contest. If you conduct yourself respectfully -- and if your ego can handle some strong disagreements -- then you can stick around. Otherwise, you can't.

If you don't really want to stick around for some good discussions, then I guess you'll just post something really rude and obscene and force me to delete you and everything you wrote -- three clicks of the mouse, no big deal. So I guess we'll find out in a few minutes whether you really do need to be treated like a ten-year-old, or whether you know how to act as a guest.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Perhaps you should state the rule I've violated.

None of them apply since it doesn't state that I have to agree with everything you say.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Personal insults. I deleted them.

I disagree with most of what you wrote, but I only have a problem with the hostility.

You really need to step off the "I'm going to win this" mentality. There is nothing to win, and if there were, you couldn't win it. Just relax and enjoy some friendly debate.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You know, you'd never cut it in New York, Jay. That city would eat you alive.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Never mind. Let me also point out that you were the first one to get hostile.

You also threw out the first insult by talking to me like I'm 13 or whatever by the way I write.

Practice what you preach.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

The culture of the site is such that making points that are totally unsupported by the facts basically invites a bit of a smackdown. Still, I think you would be hard-pressed to find an actual personal insult anywhere in that first reply, unless "Deal with it" is an insult.

Criticism of writing quality is fair game though not always polite. Welcome to the site.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

So I'm wondering.... I vmack's belief in the veteranyness of Pettite more the result of (a) Cleveland sports fans' inferiority complex or (b) a firm faith in the Yankee Aura(TM)

by crazymoloh on Sep 30, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Aaah. Just noticed that our Atul Deshmukh is a Yankees fan with major troll potential. I'm done wasting my time.

by crazymoloh on Sep 30, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Seriously, how old are you?

Be a man, admit your assertions weren't grounded in fact and that you were called out on them. Hell, I'm probably the most annoying regular and I get called out on my crap all the time. Suck it up and move on. Don't whine about how someone talked to you like you are a kid. Its your problem for interpreting it that way.

by crazymoloh on Sep 30, 2007 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

In fact, I'm the most annoying regular.

by afh4 on Oct 1, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Three things will generally illicit a digital smackdown from someone on this site. Making totally unsupported claims, making inconsistent arguments, and mis-interpreting other people's remarks. We're all guilty of each of those at times, I just think you stumbled into the trifecta on your first appearance.

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Thanks for the civility.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I think he was merely pointing out that you and facts/reality have had a rocky relationship.

Just because you got totally schooled doesn't mean he was rude.

by crazymoloh on Sep 30, 2007 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Hear hear.

- Jake

by jakesinger777 on Sep 30, 2007 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'm in agreement on the position by postion analysis. Give 'em ARod by plenty, Rivera by a nose - that's right I said nose, he ain't what he usta be - and maybe, maybe Cano, but I'd argue that too. Starting pitching - us by a mile, OF - we've got 'em on the old school skills, set up guys - puleez.

Again it's pitching, pitching, pitching that's gonna be the difference in the play-offs.

We're gonna whip these doofusse like they stole our retarded kid brother's lunch money.

GO TRIBE!!

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Sep 30, 2007 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

This is either going to be a great series for you or a very poor series for you.

by world dictator on Sep 30, 2007 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Can't the same be said for us all?

- Jake

by jakesinger777 on Sep 30, 2007 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'm very skeptical of the Yankees pitching staff. That said, the one thing they've done very well this season is not allow HRs. Of their starters, only Igawa and Clippard have allowed more than 1/9IP, and I assume we won't see either of them. The bullpen hasn't fared as well, but of the guys we are likely to face, only Farnsworth and Proctor are HR-prone.

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 11:56 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Proctor was traded at the end of July.

The Yanks' big guns in the pen are Farnsworth (although he is not well-liked by the fans), Vizcaino, Joba Chamberlain (who is unhittable), and Mariano Rivera.

Fear the Evil Empire

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Oops...clearly I actively avoid paying attention to the AL East.

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Unhittable ... you mean like Joel Zumaya hittable?

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Joba is better than Zumaya. He'll be in the rotation next season.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Oh, you Yankees fans are so cute.

Look, you're probably 13, maybe 17, based on the way you write. You've never had young pitchers on your team before -- so busy paying the Mussinas and Pavanos of the world their $20 million -- and obviously you don't know anything outside the Yankees.

Here's the list of starting pitchers developed by the Yankees in the last ten years: Ted Lilly.

So you don't know what it's like, dealing with young pitchers as a fan. They're a bit unpredictable.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

If you don't like my comments, ignore them. You don't have to be that way.

Obviously, you haven't been paying much attention to anything outside of Ohio because you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

The Yanks have started developing their own arms the last couple of years and any scout will tell you that they have the best assortment of young arms on the farm of any team in MLB.

Phil Hughes

Joba Chamberlain

Ian Kennedy

Humberto Sanchez

Alan Horne

Ross Ohlendorf

Oh yeah, Pettitte, Rivera, and Wang are all homegrown as well.

I have no doubt that you will be well aware of Chamberlain's dominance after this series.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I know all of those guys.

The list of prospects, we'll see how they pan out. We have a list of prospects, too. I know it's a novelty for you as a Yankees fan -- seriously, and no insult intended -- but other teams do have great pitching prospects.

Pettitte and Rivera were more than ten years ago, and Rivera is not a starter.

Wang, I'll give you that.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Work the body, work the body!!

- Jake

by jakesinger777 on Sep 30, 2007 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Pettitte and Rivera were 12 years ago and two of the biggest reason why this team has gone to the postseason every year since 1995 (except for Pettitte while he was in Houston).

No, Rivera is not a starter (although he started out as one in 95), but what difference does that make?

Developing young arms for the long haul is the key to success now. It doesn't matter if they are starters or not.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Developing young arms for the long haul has always been the key to success. If you didn't have $200 million payrolls, you would have figured that out years ago.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

They did figure that out years ago, which partially explains the 26 championships. More than 20 of those were before the FA era.

They just hadn't been relying on the young kids as much as they should have been. They won during the late 90s primarily because of their pitching.

This team just shied away from developing and keeping their own young arms for close to a decade and they have since changed their strategy again.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Here's how the NY Daily News lists the probables...

Game 1: Chien-Ming Wang vs. C.C. Sabathia (Thurs., Oct. 4, Jacobs Field)

Game 2: Andy Pettitte vs. Fausto Carmona (Fri., Oct. 5, Jacobs Field)

Game 3: Roger Clemens vs. Jake Westbrook (Sun., Oct. 7, Yankee Stadium)

Game 4: Mike Mussina vs. Paul Byrd (Mon., Oct. 8, Yankee Stadium - if necessary)

Game 5: Wang vs. Sabathia (Wed., Oct. 10, Jacobs Field - if necessary)

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 1:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

The NYPost is reporting Torre is still undecided between Mussina and Hughes for a potential game 4 (assuming Clemens is ok to start game 3).

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Mussina will pitch Game 4 because Torre prefers vets in the postseason, but Yankee fans would prefer Hughes to start that game.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Can anyone explain to me why Yankee fans think one middle reliever is going to swing the series in their favor?

- Jake

by jakesinger777 on Sep 30, 2007 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I think Jay might be onto something (for once, you know). When's the last time a Yankees pitcher came up mid-season and did ANYTHING, let alone pitch well? They've just never had their season so dramatically influenced by a call-up, and they're convinced it's the first time in baseball history that it's happened to ANYBODY. Farm systems! Neato!

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Wang did it in 2005.

He wasn't on the radar at all at the beginning of that season and he turned out to be one of their best starters the remainder of that season.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Fair. Two years, then? And when was the last one before that?

The point is that teams like the Indians not only EXPECT contributions from the farm system, but they DEPEND on it. If we're unimpressed with Chamberlain, it's not because he hasn't had a good season. He has. But so have dozens of others of young pitchers around the league -- see Perez, Rafael -- and nobody's petitioning SI to name them the salvations of their respective franchises.

The only difference between Chamberlain and these other pitchers is that Chamberlain pitches for the Yankees.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

They didn't have many young arms developed for several years, but they are churning those guys out now.

Instead of the young arms, they did develop several position players over the last decade and more (Jeter, Posada, Cano, Melky Cabrera, Alfonso Soriano, etc).

What matters most, though is that this team has been to the postseason for 13 years in a row. Farm or no farm, that's what it's all about.

Nobody cares if the whole team is filled with homegrown talent like the Devil Rays if you don't have a chance to compete for a championship.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

It's not that you're wrong with any one comment in particular; it's just that you're not staying on topic.

I said, "Chamberlain's hyped because he represents a unique phenomenon to Yankees fans. The farm system just hasn't helped them much on the mound."

You said, "They developed position players. It's all about the hardware."

See what I mean? You all but conceded the point we were discussing -- "They didn't have many young arms developed for several years" (like, oh, 12) -- and then pretended it didn't matter in the first place -- "Nobody cares if you can't compete." Which is odd, since you yourself said competing is "all about" young arms further up the thread.

Here's the thing: You didn't invent young pitching. Of those guys you're so excited about, Chamberlain included, you'll be lucky if one or two can stay healthy and productive, let alone be real contributors.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You are all over the place here.

Yes, it's true that they didn't develop young arms for several years. But, they are doing that now.

My point is that they have had their share of help from young players on the farm over the years. I don't know why your criticism of their farm is limited to a lack of young arms.

Secondly, their strategy of drafting and developing young arms has changed over the last couple of seasons.

Because teams are now keeping their stud pitchers, it forced teams like the Yanks and Red Sox to put more emphasis on developing their own talent.

The young arms like Chamberlain, Hughes, and Kennedy have already contributed, and contributed in a big way, which is why it's easy to get excited over watching these kids develop.

Mark my words, there has been a major youth movement on this pitching staff that is going to make the AL very nervous over the next several years.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

My point about the young pitchers was not that the Yankees don't have great young talent -- they do -- but that Yankees fans (and you in particular) are inexperienced with having players like that.

You think they're going to go on and dominate the league automatically starting next April. It won't happen like that. There'll be a lot of ups and downs, several disappointments and a few nice surprises, too, if you're lucky. You'll see.

We've been going through this for years. You haven't.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I didn't say they were going to dominate next April.

However, with the offense they run out there everyday, the young pitchers can develop at their own pace without having the pressure of being perfect every time they take the mound.

During the last few seasons, this team won because of their offense since their pitching wasn't very good.

They can overcome the bumps in the road these kids will inevitably face because they are much better options than what they've had in recent years.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

There is some truth to this, but some of these guys are just not going to work out, period. That's just how it works with prospects, even the best ones.

Take a look at how Jeremy Sowers' season has gone. If a Yankees pitcher struggles like that, he may get a little extra length on the leash, and he may not get tagged with as many L's. But he's still not going to make it as a major leaguer if he struggles like that, no matter what lineup is behind him.

It is true that the Yankees' lineup gives them a little more margin for error. But you may have noticed, the Yankees lineup is not getting any younger, or better. You've got exactly one guy who's above-average and not in decline. And who replaces A-Rod?

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'm well aware of how young often young talent fails. That's just the nature of baseball by comparison with the other major sports.

Chamberlain, Kennedy, and Hughes are just the cream of the crop right now. There are a lot more young arms to come in the next few years.

The Yanks have been considered "old" for several years now and their age hasn't affected their overall production and win totals.

They scored 930 runs last season and 968 this season with the same players.

As for A-Rod, they will worry about replacing him if he leaves town. No sure thing that's going to happen because NY is his best chance to make the most money and to be on a perennial contender at the same time.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Runs Created, per Baseball Reference, of Alex Rodriguez:

Total runs, rest of Yankees lineup:

Unanswered question: Who replaces A-Rod?

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'll answer that question if and when he's gone. Last time I checked, A-Rod is still on this club and trying to win a World Series in 2007.

That's not a question that can be answered now because he hasn't gone anywhere yet. For all we know, he will be a Yankee for the rest of his career.

Maybe I should go down the roster and ask you what the Tribe is going to do when Sabathia's contract expires after 2008 or Carmona's further down the road?

Like the A-Rod question, none of these can be answered.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Let's backtrack.

YOU: The Yankees' young pitching is more likely to succeed because the lineup gives them a larger margin for error.

JAY: The Yankees' young pitching will succeed and fail at roughly the same rate all young pitching does. If anything, the support from the lineup will weaken because (1) only one player is both above-average and not declining, and (2) that player may well opt out of his contract after this season.

YOU: The Yankees' lineup will be fine. It actually improved from last year to this year with no appreciable personnel changes.

ME: If anything, the Yankees were less productive at the plate in 2007 than in 2006. Jay's point stands because all of the "improvement" you cite is attributable to A-Rod having perhaps a career year.

YOU: This is all about 2007! C.C. Sabathia will leave the Indians next year -- won't that have a negative effect? This is unanswerable stuff.

ME: Hmm. Wasn't this about young pitching?

I don't why you're so adamant about defending how special the Yankees young pitching is. Everybody here admits they're good prospects. Why isn't that enough for you?

But hey, as far as your most recent post goes, we have
-C.C. Sabathia potentially declining to extend his contract one year from now for financial reasons, vesus
-Rodriguez, the best-compensated player in baseball, considering OPTING OUT of his contract after his finest season because he's sick of the organization.
You're not seriously trying to analogize these two, are you?

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You are simply speculating as to what A-Rod is going to when the season is over just as I would be doing by naming a replacement for him.

How do you know what A-Rod is thinking? I don't claim to know, but you guys seem convinced that it's a foregone conclusion that he's gone after the season.

The odds of him staying are just as good as him leaving.

If he does end up leaving, which may or may not happen, his replacement could wind up with 70 runs created next season (as opposed to A-Rod's 164 this season) and the team would still score over 870 runs. For the record, only 5 teams in all of baseball scored 850+ runs in 2007.

They've scored 968 runs as a team in 2007 and the next closest team in MLB is Philly with 874. A 5-10% drop in offensive production next season would hurt the Yanks, but it wouldn't kill them.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Fausto Carmona is a better pitcher than Andy Pettitte, and for that reason, he is more likely than Pettitte to pitch well in October.
Joba Chamberlain, like all the other young Yankees pitchers, is at the moment nothing more than a decent prospect performing ahead of schedule; his performance does not justify his hype.
The non-Alex Rodriguez part of the Yankees lineup is either average or declining. Even your last post assumes continued production at current levels from aging, oft-injured players. That's not a supportable projection. Nobody ever claimed to know what Rodriguez is thinking. Nor that they cared.

There's more than enough evidence to back up all of these points on this page if you're in the mood to read it.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Johan Santana is still the best pitcher in MLB but that doesn't mean his team is going to win every time he starts.

Whether Carmona is more likely to pitch better than Pettitte is irrelevant.

These games are played on the field and not on paper.

I guess we'll find out for sure on Fri.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

This is more than a little disingenuous. This whole thread is about projecting performance -- why else compare the two teams position-by-position?

And if you don't care what it is on paper, why have you been discussing it for a whole day?

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I disagree that Fausto is two notches better than Pettitte.
The point being is that Carmona has never pitched in the postseason on the big stage.

No pitcher on either team has more postseason experience than Pettitte.

These are direct quotes that you posted on this site. Then you say that whether Carmona is more likely to pitch better than Pettite is irrelevant?

Also, it's rather funny that you spend all day arguing which team is better on paper, and then post that "these games are played on the field and not on paper."

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2007 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Maybe I should go down the roster and ask you what the Tribe is going to do when Sabathia's contract expires after 2008 or Carmona's further down the road?

Carmona won't be a free agent until after 2012 -- if ever. Almost all our key players are locked up through 2010, some as far as 2013.

You really don't get it -- you haven't experienced roster building on this level of competence and sophistication. All you know is a front office that writes checks and has signed a few good pitching prospects -- also by writing checks, by the way.

Our free agents after 2007 are Trot Nixon, Kenny Lofton and Chris Gomez. I think we'll survive.

After 2008, there's a very real chance C.C. will be gone, along with Casey Blake and Paul Byrd. After 2009, Dave Dellucci.

But like the Yankees, we have several great pitching prospects, and it's likely one or more will fill the spot. Actually, if both Cliff Lee and Jeremy Sowers get back on track, we won't even have a spot to fill. Otherwise, there's Aaron Laffey, Adam Miller, Chuck Lofgren, etc.

I don't know why you think we should be worried about C.C. anyway. By the time we need to replace C.C., you'll have to replace Clemens, Mussina and Pettitte. The Yankees will not develop pitchers for those three spots. They'll just buy them. They won't really have a choice.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

First off, my whole point wasn't to speculate what Sabathia is going to do after 2008, and frankly, I don't care.

My point was that you guys are trying to get me to tell you what happens after A-Rod bolts (because he is such an integral part of the team) and nobody knows what he's going to do - just like nobody knows what Sabathia is going to do after his contract is up.

By the way, you are wrong about not being able to replace Pettitte, Clemens, and Moose with the young arms over the next couple of years.

Pettitte will be back next season and so will Moose. Hughes and Chamberlain are going to be in the rotation next season, but there won't be any room for Kennedy unless someone goes down.

There are no real options to "buy" on the market which is why they are spending more on developing their own.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Until 2009 when they throw $25 million a year (or more) at Santana. If those young starters don't work out, that will solve their problems rather quickly.

by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2007 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I don't think that's gonna happen.

Even if it does, they are still replacing two of the three aforementioned pitchers (Moose, Pettitte, and Clemens) with young kids that Jay said they won't do.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

The reason they won't do it is that not all of your prospects will pan out, and some of them won't pan out soon enough. It's very rare for any contending team to replace three rotation spots from the minors in two years.

For all we know, Phil Hughes' career could be over by next June. He's the right age for a career-ending injury, and Torre has never had to deal with young pitchers before.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

He dealt with Pettitte, Rivera, and Wang at young ages and they've turned out just fine.

I think he knows what he's doing.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

"There are no real options to "buy" on the market which is why they are spending more on developing their own."

Rook to Jay-8. Mate in one.

by Brick. on Sep 30, 2007 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Whoa, slow down! I'm trying to take notes here: "Yankees...youth...movement...pitching staff...be...nervous." Okay! Got it!

My criticism of the farm system is not limited to the lack of pitching, because I'm not criticizing the farm system. I'm criticizing Yankees fans and the NY-centric media for making Joba Chamberlain out to be the second coming, and I'm postulating that the cause of the hype is the relative paucity of pitching help that the Yankees have developed from within over the last decade.

The Indians are the sort of team that's now keeping its "stud pitching" -- pitchers the Indians themselves either developed or picked up very early in their careers -- which has forced the Yanks to alter their strategy. What's more, the Indians have been doing this for years now. And then you show up on an Indians site to clue us all in to Cashman's genius.

Look, you've got some young dudes with good arms. That's not a revelation to the rest of the league, and treating it as such only reinforces everything negative people say about Yankees fans.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

That is sort of my point. The team developed only a handful of significant players from 1996 to 2005, a ten year period, and most of the ones they did develop were traded (Nick Johnson or Mike Lowell). Half your list debuted more than ten years ago, the other half in the last two years.

I agree that the postseason is what it's all about, but the Yankees' presence there has been purchased, not achieved.

If you took $70 million off the Yankees roster, two things would happen. One, you wouldn't have a team that could make the postseason. Two, you'd still have a team that cost twice as much as the Indians.

So the "postseason" and "rings" grandstanding won't win you any debating points here, because it's understood that the Yankees have achieved incredibly little considering their advantages.

If the NY Giants got to start every possession at the 40, would you really brag about their touchdowns?

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Payroll doesn't always mean jack. The Red Sox have had the #2 payroll in the league for several years and finished in 3rd place last season.

The Mets are another perfect example.

It takes a lot more than money to win or the Yanks would win the World Series every year.

Think of it this way. If the Yanks and Red Sox didn't basically rule baseball right now in regards to their huge followings, payrolls, and MLB merchandising, the NL wouldn't be so futile by comparison.

The other AL teams are forced to spend money to compete (which is a good thing for Tribe fans) and that's one of the biggest reasons why it is the far superior league.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You're not totally wrong. Yes, the Yankees clearly have forced the AL teams to compete harder. And yes, other teams have spent lavishly and failed miserably.

But it is a mistake to lump the Yankees in with the Mets or Dodgers or Red Sox, because the Yankees' spending has hovered around 50% higher even than those teams.

You can't dismiss a $60 million difference as "only $60 million."

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I think that's probably over-stating it a bit. The last couple of seasons Cano, Cabrera and Wang have all been unexpected important contributors.

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Yeah. I'm willing to give credit where credit is due. I like their farm system.

by crazymoloh on Sep 30, 2007 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Oh, no doubt. Though I was limiting my argument to pitchers. All I mean to say is, it's a yearly occurrence for us and for most everybody else, whereas the Yankees are used to shopping for help on the mound.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

To be fair...most consistently successful teams aren't relying on young pitchers every year. When we were dominating in the 90s, there weren't too many young guys we brought up and played big innings. Wright, Colon, Ogea, Tavarez...that's about it between '94-'00.

by APV on Sep 30, 2007 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

And I'll offer that the current Yankees lineup has a lot in common with that vintage of Indians squads.

You're right to force me into less bombastic prose, though. Chamberlain's a good reliever, perhaps even unusually so for a mid-season call-up, but he'd be less of a media sensation if (a) he didn't pitch for the Yankees, (b) he didn't have that ridiculous name, (c) if he wasn't a power pitcher, and -- most important -- (d) if the Yankees as an organization had relied even marginally more on their farm system to produce arms over the last decade.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Actually, the Indians lineup has a lot in common with the late-90's Yankees. Sizemore and Williams, Peralta and Jeter, Victor and Posada, even Tino and Garko. And if you look in the dictionary under "adequacy," you might just find that they've replaced Scott Brosius' picture with Casey Blake's.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

So...we meet again for the first time for the last time.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I don't think I want to look at a picture of either Scott Brosius or Casey Blake.

by hans on Sep 30, 2007 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Just for the sake of accuracy (and respect, which I realize many of you think she is not worthy of), it's Suzyn Waldman, not "Susan Waldmyn."

by Fiddlesticks on Sep 30, 2007 3:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I can assure you that NY hates her too.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'm old-fashioned (and just plain old as well): I believe in treating people with respect, even if I'm not a fan of their work (and I am not a fan of Ms. Waldman's work, although I'm a much bigger non-fan of her broadcast partner.)

by Fiddlesticks on Sep 30, 2007 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I can respect that. You're a better person than most.

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

My fault, fixed it.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Sep 30, 2007 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Thanks for the help. My dyslexia really cripples me with her name - the non-standard spelling of her first name throws me off making it hard to remember her last name.

Again, thanks for the correction and if you ever see me make that mistake again, please do not hesitate to offer your assistance.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Oct 1, 2007 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Hijacktini

by Brick. on Sep 30, 2007 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

2 ounces bombast
1/2 ounce homerism

Add to shaker filled with ice. Shake until frosted, Serve lukewarm; garnish with clumsy rhetorical device.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

i like mine a take it too personal glass

by Brick. on Sep 30, 2007 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Brick's Last Word Saloon, open for business.

by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2007 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I saw 60+ comments in this thread and thought I missed something important. Nope.

by supermarioelia on Sep 30, 2007 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Get back to your studies.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Sep 30, 2007 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Great article here on how important it is to have an experienced starter when you need to win a big game.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 11:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Seriously, he picked the wrong day to argue the importance of experience in big games. Tomorrow maybe, but not today.

by supermarioelia on Sep 30, 2007 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Pettitte ain't Glavine.

Once of these guys was on a team in Atlanta that choked every year in October for the exception of 95.

You guys remember that season, right?

by vmack on Sep 30, 2007 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Sadly, vmack couldn't lay off the personal insults (elsewhere, not here) and has been banned.

He will not be missed.

by Jay on Sep 30, 2007 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

And we inch one step closer to Jay finally releasing a book entitled "LGT: Too Hot For The Internet". Featuring E5, Judah, Vmack and more!! Seriously though, my curiosity is in overdrive here....can we maybe have a link at the very bottom of the site just called "Inappropriate Stuff"?

by supermarioelia on Sep 30, 2007 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Gee, superareola, thanks for lumping me in with the gaybaiter and Mr. Count-The-Ringzzz. Much obliged.

I've been living in the midst of Yankees fans for ten years now, and I would've banned Vmack before any insults were flung, not because he was a Yankees fan per se, or a mere troll, but because when it comes to honest debate, there is no there there with these guys.

I have yet to meet a Yankees fan capable of -- or interested in -- engaging with a cogent argument about the business of the game, especially player development; any discussion invariably devolves into triumphalist hagiography, stoked and fed and fed and stoked by the YES network and the local papers.

Thus Andy Pettite is a great big-game pitcher (Count The Ringzzzz!), Joba Chamberlain is 'unhittable,' and every young pitcher in the organization is sure to attain acehood as soon as he sets cleat upon the mound of historied* Yankee stadium.

The worst part of it is the tone. No matter how old or young, guys like this always sound as if they themselves have earned some real-world credit for their beloved Bombers' success -- including the Babe Ruth trade. It isn't pride and it isn't honest. What it is is arrogant, ignorant, childish provincialism. Nothing more.

Anyway, I step in more than enough of this dreck here in North Jersey. I hope never again to see it tracked onto this site.

*yeah, it's a word. but it sure as hell shouldn't be.

by judahda on Oct 1, 2007 1:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Two things in reply to myself:

When I said 'I would have banned..."I did not mean to imply that I think my judgment is more sound than Jay's or Ryan's. Were I running this site, it would be a very quiet, lonely place.
You remember the Babe Ruth trade, right? Phil Seghi swapped Eck and the Bambino for Archibald Cox, Leron Lee, Tom Veryzer, and Bernard Baruch.

by judahda on Oct 1, 2007 2:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Wait a second. Did I say 'triumphalist hagiography'? I meant 'hagiographic triumphalism.'

by judahda on Oct 1, 2007 2:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Haha you're actually an amazing read when you're not sparring with Chuck.

by supermarioelia on Oct 1, 2007 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Hey, Mario why aren't you studying? Don't you know those other medicine dweebs are gonna absolutely bury your ass on rounds if you don't get on top of your game now?

Anyway I need to correct you on one factual error. Mr. Judah is a right guy. I spent a very enjoyable evening last night at the Judah Manor in the library with Mr. Judah where we sipped fine brandy, smoked cigars, and exchanged insights while watching the Indians tune-up against the Royals of Kansas City. Cuz, you know, we're gentlemen.

Mr. Judah is a fine addition to the LGT community and I, for one, am proud to have him here. Through the coming struggle against our worthy opponents, I'm sure that you'll be proud to have him here too.

Our new friend Mr. vmac appears to be a fan of the Yankees, the fanbase of which I hold in high regard. His performance here has done nothing but burnish the image of that noble group what with his discerning command of baseball statistics and his penetrating insight into both the Yankees farm system and ours. Truly, Mr. Vamc is a fine representative of that august group. I'm looking forward to hearing from him again, although I'll probably hafta go over to Pinstripe Alley to do so. In about 10 days I think that it will be a very enjoyable visit - after we grind those putzes into talcum powder.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Oct 1, 2007 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Take it easy guys, it was in reference to the fact those were the only posters I could think of that had posts deleted this past summer....it wasn't a condemnation of the poster, just a remark about the fact they had posts deleted.

by supermarioelia on Oct 1, 2007 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

And Chuck you'll be proud to hear that I'll be passing up Game 1 tickets because I have an exam the next day. I'm actually disgusted with myself....I'm such a terrible fan.

by supermarioelia on Oct 1, 2007 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Don't forget: while you're dreaming of your high school prom queen, Han is planing on slipping through the razor-wire and slitting your throat.

Hit the books kid - you're in for a tough fight when you get to the clinics!

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Oct 1, 2007 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Speaking of that...are you still looking for someone to take those tickets of your hands?

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 1, 2007 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Yuppers, assuming they finally announce Game 1 on Thursday as starting at 7pm. Once the 7pm start time is confirmed fire me an email at melia2010@meds.uwo.ca and we'll start sorting this out.

by supermarioelia on Oct 1, 2007 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Better yet, email me ASAP and I'll email you back with my phone number so we can hammer this out over the phone.

by supermarioelia on Oct 1, 2007 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Get back to your books! You haven't got time for this nonsense.

LeBron must GO!

by mauichuck on Oct 1, 2007 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

(scurries away)

by supermarioelia on Oct 1, 2007 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Ah man, and I just dug up postseason stats on Pettitte and Glavine. Anyone want to argue with me? Please, just for fun?

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Oct 1, 2007 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

You are just blatantly ignoring the facts now.

Postseason stats:

Glavine 14-16, 3.42 ERA, 1.27 WHIP
Pettitte 14-9, 4.08 ERA, 1.35 WHIP

Where is the big edge there? If anything Glavine is actually better than Pettitte.

Again, experience is just a crutch. Skill is what makes the difference. Better players, not older players, are the ones that win. You are now staking your argument to this "The better pitcher doesn't always win." and that is just weak. The better pitcher may not always win but I'll take my chances with him.

D.S. 8/26/07

by fwembt on Oct 1, 2007 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

YEAH BUT LUK AT DA HUGE NUMBERZ IN GLAVINS EL COLUMM!

Now the Lord can make you tumble, and the Lord can make you turn, and the Lord can make you overflow... but the Lord can't make you burn

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 1, 2007 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Ah, thank you.

Dealing with it.

by fwembt on Oct 1, 2007 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Found at Deadspin. It's funny.

http://johnsterling.blogspot.com/2007/09/yankeexclusive-rogers-pitching-strategy.html

by doowop on Oct 1, 2007 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Holy crap that is funny ... be sure to catch the polls down the left side of the page ... really funny.

by Jay on Oct 1, 2007 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Okay, I have now wasted 15 minutes reading that site ... Yankees fan with a sense of humor, I just can't get my head around it. The list of all-time choke jobs is pretty impressive.

by Jay on Oct 1, 2007 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

Yawn.

/scratches balls

by APV on Oct 1, 2007 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/sportsnation/polling?event_id=3169

2) Which team has a better bullpen?

66.0% Yankees
34.0% Indians

SportsNation has spoken!

by ASP on Oct 1, 2007 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

I'd bet that 34% of SportsNation cannot name a single member of the Indians bullpen except Joe Borowski. And probably 66% cannot name anyone except Borowski and Betancourt, only because he might be on some fantasy teams.

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 1, 2007 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Indians v. Yankees. Position by Position

The Yankees told Brian Bruney, who pitched in three of the four ALDS games last season, that they won't need him anymore this year and to go home.

"I was shocked," Bruney said. The Yankees have decided to go with Ross Ohlendorf, Chris Britton and Jose Veras as bullpen options for the 25-man playoff roster.

by ASP on Oct 1, 2007 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs