Disappointments
The great thing about all of those disappointments (listed in the poll) this year...we are in first place!
If we would have been told before the season started of Barfield's low power and BA, Hafner's decline, Cabrera's ineffectiveness, Dellucci's non-existance, Lee's collapse and Westbrook's lost half-season...would anyone really have believed that we could be in first place? I am truly thankful for all of the surprises that we have had this year to balance all of the negatives. Where would we be without our prospects stepping up this year?
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Re: Disappointments
by homelytourist on Sep 7, 2007 2:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by Turkmenbashi on Sep 7, 2007 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
You know what? Big F'in deal. Even if he did this, it wasn't a banned substance at the time. Until the MLB starts running blood tests for it and he fails an exam, I could care less.
Still a feel good story in my book.
by homelytourist on Sep 7, 2007 2:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by mauichuck on Sep 7, 2007 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by fleerdon on Sep 7, 2007 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by gahnki on Sep 7, 2007 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
Like just about everything now adays, Wikipedia has a good article on hGH (that' the current "official" acronym).
I thought that I saw somewhere that some doc's were using it to promote bone healing, but I can't seem to find a good reference. I may have been wrong about that, in which case my defense of Mr. Ankiel may also be wrong. Sorry
by mauichuck on Sep 7, 2007 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by gahnki on Sep 7, 2007 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by gahnki on Sep 7, 2007 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
Something that stands out in my memory of the article was that one of the earlier HGH compounds, in very high dosages, caused unusual late jaw growth in adults, which may be why so many Olympic sprinters were wearing braces.
You seem to be interested in the actual effects and side-effects on performance. I've never seen anything official. You may want to hunt through some back issues of GQ -- a few years ago it had a terrific anonymous profile with a flamed-out minor league pitcher who said he had lost his 90+ heat one off-season and was in the last year of his deal. It was very descriptive of the casual, "cost of doing business" attitude baseball had (has?) toward PEDs. Anyway, he never got his fastball back, but he said the roid rage / shrunken testes stuff was vastly over-rated. It wasn't so much that he could suddenly leg-press half a ton, but he said he finished sets that had previously exhausted him, and that he would wake up the next day ready to hit the weight-room after workouts that used to demolish his bathroom.
It's probably worth noting, as so many have, that lots of people take PEDs; that doesn't change the fact that there are only a few hundred people in the world who are physically qualified to play major league baseball. What makes Bonds, Bonds, for example, was never his raw power, but his vision and depth perception, which I've read is among the best ever measured. I seem to recall an expert saying that Barry's steroid use, ridiculous though it must have been, at best added ten, maybe fifteen feet to his better-hit balls.
I guess the best answer to your question is that PEDs, like everything else in baseball, are about marginal improvement. The guys who can throw 100 don't need drugs to do it; the ticker-tape shots have a lot more to do with timing than with muscle. But coming out of the bullpen for the third day in a row, or pushing warning track shots over the wall -- that's where the chemicals have made a difference.
I apologize for my hang-over rant, here. I like the topic.
by fleerdon on Sep 8, 2007 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
OK, let's start with the "new improved" hGH - no such thing. Here's why. I think the confusion arises because there are a lot of variants, or what is chemically referred to as congeners, of testosterone. Anabolic steroids have a molecular weight in the 100's. Strategically changing a double bond or adding an oxygen changes the effects and potency of the hormone. In fact, phenylizing one ring turns testosterone into estrogen and giving a much different action to the hormone. So the "designer" anabolic steroid is real and new ones are made every day. Human Growth Hormone is a much larger molecule with a molecular weight in the tens of thousands and is composed of a number of amino acids. It's the type and sequence of these acids that makes hGH, hGH. Changing either the type or sequence neither enhances nor changes the potency of this hormone. As a result it is next to impossible to "design" an undetectable or more potent hGH.
And here's a little tip: don't use GQ as a source of medical information. You wouldn't reference them as a source of baseball expertise, so why would you think they knew anything about medicine? But here's one thing they did get right: high dosages of hGH will make your jaw grow - true. In fact there is a medical condition caused by the pituitary over producing hGH called acromegaly. Guys who have this disease look like this guy. So they got that right.
I've talked to my endocrinologist friend in St. Louis and he is skeptical about the purport increase muscle mass attributed to the use of hGH. In fact he thinks that the general increase in the use of hGH is the result of a very successful drug company PR campaign. In fact he doesn't buy any of the athletic enhancement claims made for hGH. I might add that this guy is the smartest son-of-a-bitch I know or ever heard of. If he says that's the way it is - I buy it 100%. But you don't have to.
Bottom line: yes hGH is very, very difficult to detect, but it may not have purported effects and no you cannot synthesize a more potent hGH.
by mauichuck on Sep 9, 2007 7:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by Jay on Sep 9, 2007 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
I meant what I said, I was hungover and jumbling my sources -- not to mention, I read this crap ages ago and wasn't in the mood to track it down.
The GQ profile was not my source for any information about so-called designer PEDs. All they did was talk to a former minor leaguer who had taken "some stuff from Mexico." Everything else I said -- the jaw growth, the designer PEDs, that stuff -- was cobbled together from a number of articles, I think from SI and ESPN.
(As far as GQ goes, only the regular culture and fashion crap is in-house, so the quality of the rest of the magazine varies pretty widely from issue to issue. It's nice bathroom reading, but trust me when I say I don't need a lesson in careful research.)
My medical knowledge is essentially zilch, clearly; I wasn't trying to imply the existence of "designer" HGH, or what the drug itself does, because I wouldn't know if there was such a thing one way or the other. So I'll definitely defer to Chuck on that, or really to anybody who tells a good story. What I did remember, and what I hoped to say, is that if testing is your only metric for gauging PED use, it's almost certainly going to lag reality, because the drugs themselves are a moving target in that regard.
by fleerdon on Sep 9, 2007 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
It's basic human nature. It's why 99% of players still admire and respect Barry Bonds. They know what we don't want to know -- drugs are part of the game, and everyone's looking for an edge, and it's been part of the game for decades.
by Jay on Sep 8, 2007 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
Let me give you another example of a perfectly legal - both under federal regulations and major league by-laws - "performance enhancing substance" - creatine.
Creatine will increase muscle mass and decrease recovery time. I'm convinced of this even if some "experts" say it has little effect. BTW, you can find "experts" who will tell you that hGH has little effect on muscle growth. Like most things medical, you can find "experts" on both sides of any issue.
So, there's a continuum of "performance enhancing substances" from asprin - decreases swelling shortens recovery times - to testosterone and heroin - relieves pain lets you get back in the gym quicker and yeah, I've heard of body builders using heroin as part of their recovery program.
I hope you can understand why an athlete could be confused about the swifting list of "banned substances". One day stuff like androstiendione is perfectly ligit - both from a federal law perspective and under major league rules - and the next day it's not. And two years after it's banned guys are being accused of "cheating" because you used what they knew was a perfectly legal substance two years ago.
Maybe they'll ban creatine next week and another 20 guys'll be accused of cheating because some guy at GNC says he sold 'em all creatine back in '05. But I won't think of them as cheaters - will you?
by mauichuck on Sep 8, 2007 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by gahnki on Sep 8, 2007 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
That shit is the bomb. Give you 5-10% more on your bench press in 4-6 weeks. Bulk you up and give you shorter recovery times. Not the same caliber stuff as the diabinol congeners - but great stuff nonetheless.
But then again a steady diet of T-bone steaks'll bulk you up too.
Prolonged use - 8 plus weeks - is a bad idea. Some evidence that it can impare renal function and leads to muscle cramps, but no neoplastic or hormonal side effects.
Shoulda added to the discussion that Alonzo Mourning lost a kidney over-using OTC analgesics. Tylenol will kill you dead from liver failure if you take a fist full of 'em. Lotsa stuff is dangerous as hell - if you use them improperly.
I got a call into a buddy of mine who's an endocrinologist in St. Louis - bet his phone is ringing off the hook with local reporters wanting to talk about Ankiel - to get his take on this "super" hGH fleerdon's heard about. I'll let you'all know what he's says when I hear back from him
by mauichuck on Sep 8, 2007 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by gahnki on Sep 8, 2007 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
It's human nature to respond to huge incentives with risky behavior. It's human nature for a culture to evolve in which taking these substances becomes morally normative and not even viewed as particularly risky -- in a team sport, how could trying to get healthy and player better ever be viewed as bad? It couldn't, plain and simple.
So the players exist in an environment where they're doing things routinely that are not regulated but also not "wrong," yet they remain keenly aware that any public disclosure would be perceived quite differently. The public could never, ever understand that they haven't done anything wrong.
In a more general sense, it's human nature for people to take shortcuts and try to gain small edges here and there. Marketing and PR language gets finessed, people speed and take questionable deductions on their taxes, use family connections to avoid the draft, etc. In a winner-take-all culture, cheating is defined by successful enforcement only, so if nobody ever stops you for going 73 mph in a 65 zone, then you're not really a scofflaw -- and Barry Bonds isn't a cheater.
fleerdon talks below about understanding how different pro athletes are from the rest of us. I view it more as pro athletes being the same as everybody else. What needs explaining is how the context of their day-to-day lives leads them to look at something like HGH and view it the same way an average person would view speeding, and that lying about it to the media isn't any different than telling your girlfriend that no, her thighs don't look fat in those jeans. Sometimes the truth would be damaging and wouldn't help anybody, and this is one of those situations.
by Jay on Sep 8, 2007 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
I still don't like Bonds, because of the tainting of the Game's records. Hank Aaron is the home run king, IMO.
by gahnki on Sep 8, 2007 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
I don't find characterizations credible when they reduce a human being to a cartoon villain. I don't think MLB deliberately chose to ignore a major problem to make money. The likelier scenario is that they didn't know first-hand how deep it went, and they had every incentive in the world to hope and assume that it wasn't really that much of a problem. And by the time they could no longer deny it, even to themselves, it was a huge, ticking PR timebomb.
This is not to excuse what went on, but again, to bring it all down to the level of basic human behavior. Everybody enjoyed the 1998 pursuit of Maris' record.
As for Bonds vs. Aaron, I know everyone loves these discussion, but I personally see no need to "decide" that one is better or that one is "the king" -- all of which is an abstraction without consequence, even in the context of being a sports fan. If you get off talking about that, fine, but I personally find it kind of boring.
I will only say, in comparing the two players and their careers, that Bonds has many things going for him, starting with five Gold Gloves and nearly 264 stolen bases. They hit the same number of home runs, but Aaron needed nearly 2500 more AB -- 25% more -- to hit them. Aaron never had the bat being constantly taken out of his hands by opposing managers as Bonds did.
Aaron also didn't have to try to hit HR at Pac Bell, one of the toughest hitting environments ever in the game. He didn't have to face pitchers in an era when Latin America was being mined for talent relentlessly by every team. And of course, Aaron's career coincided with the rise of amphetamine use. But he never had to face a single pitcher on anabolic steroids, or HGH, or the cream or the clear.
All of which is not to say that Bonds is "better" or "the king." It's just to say, there's never going to be a clear-cut comparison, and both men are undoubtedly in the very highest tier of the greatest ever to play the game.
by Jay on Sep 8, 2007 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by Jay on Sep 8, 2007 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
Yeah, I'm less concerned with the choices themselves as made by the athletes, which I think you've elucidated perfectly by putting them in economic terms, than with the mentality of condemning PEDs. What drives it? Any sort of argument about the purity of the sport or the legitimacy of the statistics strikes me as ludicrously impractical and hypocritical.
Is it wrong because The Babe didn't have it? If that's the case, we might just as well lash out at elective surgery, or video analysis, or MRIs. How do Jhonny's LASIK or those screws in Betancourt's elbow qualifiedly differ from Sheffield's clear, Ankiel's HGH, or Neifi's amphetamines? What -- and, more important, who -- decides what is and is not acceptable performance-enhancing behavior, and under what rationale?
I'm especially skeptical of the argument that pro athletes ought to be role models -- that if Giambi takes andro, so will a Little Leaguer. If you're really worried about your kid behaving like Jason Giambi, drugs would be a comparatively lesser concern.
To me, it's an even more strained distinction than we try to draw between enshrining Mickey Mantle and ostracizing Pete Rose: "We will honor any nature of douchebag except the one who TARNISHES THE INTEGRITY OF THE SPORT!" What does that even mean?
by fleerdon on Sep 9, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
Add to that modern knowledge of diet and physiology and equipment. How about pro golfers getting laser-tuned irons and pouring over digital swing analyses? You don't see a whole lot of that at Big Met, you know?
That's the shifting compass that sportswriters just can't deal with. There's this hidden rationale that LeBron ought to be playing the same game as the CYO kids around the corner. But he never was. Saying that drugs impugn the integrity of pro sports is . . . I don't even know. From the get-go, "the game" and "the sport" are as far away from each other as paper airplanes and the space program.
by fleerdon on Sep 8, 2007 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by fleerdon on Sep 8, 2007 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: Disappointments
by Fiddlesticks on Sep 8, 2007 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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