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Betancourt locked up through 2010

Details still coming in, but the AP is now reporting that the Indians have signed Rafael Betancourt to a two-year contract covering the 2008 and 2009 seasons, with a club option for a third year in 2010.  Betancourt had been eligible for salary arbitration for the upcoming 2008 season, and for free agency after 2009.  Similar to the deal given to Jake Westbrook after the 2004 season, this deal locks in cost certainty for 2009 and secures Betancourt's services for an extra year.  More details to come ...

UPDATE:  Paul Hoynes is now reporting that the deal is worth a guaranteed $5.4 million -- 2.05 in 2008 and 3.35 in 2009.  The 2010 club option is for $5 million, and no guaranteed buyout, incentives or vesting terms have been reported.

Betancourt was signed as an amateur free agent out of Venezeula by the Red Sox in 1993 -- to play shortstop.  By 1996, he'd bombed out as a hitter (478 OPS in Low-A), so the Red Sox tried to reinvent him as a pitcher.  Despite some early success, Betancourt was dogged by injuries and released by Boston in 2002.  Signed by the Indians in 2003 to a minor league deal -- Championship! -- he proceeded to mow down Double-A hitters as an Aero, to the tune of 75 K's in only 45 innings, and was in the majors by the All-Star break that same year.  Though occasionally slowed down by injury, he generally has been a solid contributor ever since.

For the 2007 season, Betancourt arguably was the most dominant reliever in the game, posting a 1.47 ERA over 79+ innings.  He held teams scoreless in 55 of his 68 appearances, allowed zero unearned runs all season, and never once allowed more than one run to score.  He was exceptionally stingy with free passes, yielding only nine walks (in nine separate games) and zero HBP.  In one 29-game stretch starting in early May, he gave up only two runs over 33+ innings, both on solo shots.  (Outside of that stretch, his ERA was still only 2.15, which would have been the 7th best in the league.)

And as everybody knows, he led all major league relievers in both FIP and PRC.

The 2010 club option is particularly notable in that its price tag, $5 million, is low compared to other elite relievers and isn't even guaranteed.  More than a dozen relievers are already paid a higher salary than that, and the number almost certainly will at least double by 2010.  Betancourt will turn 35 in April of that season.

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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
without any details on the money involved (big caveat), the length of this deal (2 years w/club option) sounds pretty nice for the Tribe.  What an AWESOME offseason.  

by APV on Jan 23, 2008 11:55 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
To add a little bit...the going length for (those viewed as) top set up men the last few years seems to be about 3-years (Howry, Eyre, Baez, Bradford, Riske, Shields, Gordon, etc...).  For really elite guys (e.g. BJ Ryan), they can be even longer.  Last year Betancourt was an elite reliever by just about any metric other than saves.  This contract will cover him for his age 33, 34 and 35 seasons (potentially).  Do we really want to lock him up longer than that given his history of arm problems?  I don't think so.  I like this.  Basically we seem to have signed an elite/near-elite pitcher for the risk associated with a good middle-reliever.

by APV on Jan 23, 2008 12:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Bad Deal. Not long enough.
The Florida Gators in 2006...so why not the Cleveland Indians in 2007!

by GatorTribeFan on Jan 23, 2008 12:23 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
If Betancourt stays healthy and reasonably effective, it's a three-year deal. That's plenty long enough for a reliever.

by Ryan on Jan 23, 2008 12:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I think 3+1 would have been ideal. Jay and I debated this at length a little while ago. I wanted 3+1, Jay wanted 2+1. Despite my slight disagreement I think this is a good deal. It is consistent with Shapiro's predilection for risk aversion and cost certainty.

I am more or less satisfied with the Tribe's off season now. They did the 2 things on my list, so I can't really complain.

by KevinV on Jan 23, 2008 4:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Okay, here's your homework.

  1. Find every reliever who had a season about as good as Betancourt had in 2007.

  2. Report back their stats from four seasons later.

  3. See if you still think this deal isn't long enough.

I'll be waiting.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 3:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I don't think your homework assignment hits at the heart of the issue. I would modify it as follows to examine 2+1 vs 3+1:

1. Find every reliever who had 5 seasons as good as Raffy's first 5 at a similar age.

- This contract is not based on his having one dominant year. You should look at relievers that have been consistently at least solid, as he has been. He has a good track record and that should be taken in to consideration.

2. Report back their stats from 3 seasons later.

- We need year 3 data because if he is solid in 2010 we would pick up his 2011 option in the 3+1 scenario.

3. *Assess if a 1 year deal in 2011 would be a reasonable risk, based on the much lower rate we might have signed him for in 2008 by buying out 2 years of arbitration.

- If he were to be at least a solid reliever from 2003-2010, wouldn't a 1 year 2011 deal be a reasonable risk?

by KevinV on Jan 23, 2008 5:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Okay, but you're going to find the answer won't be much different.

Betancourt has not been uniformly excellent for five years, by the way.  How soon we forget a few trips to the DL and a pretty sour 2006 season.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 5:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
An issue with the 3+1 is buying out/guaranteeing a FA year. like has been said many times, over 30 relievers, especially non-closers, are highly unreliable, even if they have strung 5 good years together. theres a pretty good chance of being on the hook for 5 mill for a 4-4.5 ERA guy. i know it seems so unlikely right now, but its not as far off as you think.

by 7foot3 on Jan 23, 2008 5:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Re: getting to the heart of the issue.

The heart of the issue, as per your average whiny and shortsighted fan, is whether Betancourt's 2011 season is worth whining about at this point in time.  My suggested homework would provide valuable data on that specific question.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 5:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
This was a great deal and for it to be any longer would have been foolish.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 23, 2008 6:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Here's the story from ClevelandIndians.com.  No word on financials yet.

by APV on Jan 23, 2008 12:44 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Can I ask about the banner on the site? It seems a bit in poor taste considering the Juan Lara situation. If I'm misunderstanding, apologies.

by afh4 on Jan 23, 2008 1:29 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And just to clarify, I get the Skinner reference but, umm, it wasn't the first thing I thought of in terms of the last couple of months.

by afh4 on Jan 23, 2008 1:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I'm with you.  I hadn't even noticed the banner.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Jan 23, 2008 1:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
It's been changed. Didn't think about the other meaning, sorry.

by Ryan on Jan 23, 2008 1:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Thanks. I like the new one. Anything to piss off Mariners' fans.

by afh4 on Jan 23, 2008 1:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
If it weren't for Jeff Stevens, and Jeff Harris of course, that guy would be my favorite minor leaguer.

by Brick. on Jan 23, 2008 2:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Good stuff.

He's no Scott Linebrink, but Raffy will have to do.

((that is sarcasm, please save your reply))

by Toxicadam on Jan 23, 2008 4:15 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Another deal I have a hard time seeing much to dislike about.  We might complain a lot about the lack of activity from the Tribe, but I'm continually impressed by the moves we do make.  Nice deal.

Now that it's official, are the Raffy-R and Raffy-L nicknames going forward into 2008 and beyond?  Or have we come up with something better?

by APV on Jan 23, 2008 4:42 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
i always liked Fist of Iron and Fist of Steel, but it doesn't quite roll off the tongue.

by jeremy on Jan 23, 2008 5:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
"Raa-fee-arr" doesn't exactly waltz off your lips, either, and has the distinct disadvantage of not coming from a song about coal mining. But it's water over the dam, Jeremy. You guys can go off and use your fancy goddamned nicknames . . .

"I'm stayin' right here, havin' fun, as usual."

by fleerdon on Jan 23, 2008 6:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
That's the only one I'm actually angling for. The others range from "straight-up kidding" to "overly precious to describe baseball thrown at 94 miles per hour."

That said, Raf-two-dee-two pleases me immensely.

by fleerdon on Jan 25, 2008 12:15 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Wow, he needs a new agent. I guess there's something to be said for financial security, but this is equivalent to signing for $3 million in 2009, a figure he almost certainly would have passed with even a marginal 2008. Oh, and we got an option year at a very reasonable price, too.

Now, since we don't have to worry about an arbitrator bloating his salary, we can potentially make him the closer if we want to (not that we wouldn't do this just to save money, but you know what I mean). Personally, I'm a relief ace guy and think he fits perfectly the way he's used now, but it's nice to potentially have a stud closer/relief ace type under our control for three years at a very, very reasonable salary.

by Kos on Jan 23, 2008 4:58 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Good deal. He had an excellent year with other Rafa and I hope to see similar results.

by mjschaefer on Jan 23, 2008 5:37 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
excellent write-up. glad to know Raffy's now a millionaire, and that he's our millionaire.

i'm guessing you mean "allowed zero inherited runs all season" in the fourth paragraph?

by jeremy on Jan 23, 2008 5:44 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Good catch, I actually meant to say unearned runs, and that's now fixed.  Did a quick count, looks like he allowed three inherited runners to score and stranded 30.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 6:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I honestly thought royalsreview would be here posting some nonsense by now.

by talonk on Jan 23, 2008 5:59 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
But since the Mitchell Report restored our national innocence to its former glory and Betancourt hasn't been suspended since then, everything is peachy and RR is out of gas on this subject.

by NickFantana on Jan 23, 2008 6:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I'm pretty sure RR's posts here are like 99% tongue-in-cheek. I personally think he's hilarious.

by mrich on Jan 24, 2008 10:28 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
If Betancourt is our closer by year's end, this deal looks even better.

by nickjs21 on Jan 23, 2008 6:50 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Red Sox fan here
Great signing for y'all.  Was really impressed by this guy in the ALCS.

I just read y'all's 2007 Game 7 ALCS thread, and I wanted to say a couple of things.

  1. I sincerely hope y'all win a championship in the next few years--I understand your pain.  Your team deserves better than it got last year and a few bounces here or there and that series is yours (and almost certainly you would have beat the Rockies).  The only way I won't be rooting for you  next year is if you're in the Sox' path.  Seriously, I felt bad after the euphoria was over because it was so heart-wrenching for y'all.  Even more than the Cubs, you deserve the big shiny trophy, and soon.

  2. I do not like the whole "Sox are the new Yankees" BS.  When we sign about 10 more 35-year-old+ pitchers for too much money, you can say that.  We're putting a team that is about 25% homegrown on the field.  Yes, we use money to our advantage, but what do you want the Sox front office to do?  Not compete with the Yankees?  Our payroll deficit to the Yankees is comparable to yours vs. the Tigers this year.  "Spend smarter" is the mantra of both our front offices.  AND...if Boston hadn't won in '04, this "new Yankees" nonsense would not even exist; we'd just be "lovable losers".  I'm just a fan of a baseball team, like you are, and the implication that my team is "evil" or "buys championships" is offensive.

  3. It was our rookies and homegrowns that won us last year's championship (Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon) more than our FA signings (Matsuzaka, Lugo, Drew).  To say we bought that championship is silly; it was based much more on player development.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 7:13 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Thanks.
Those homegrown players are really hated around these parts.  I do not hate those homegrown so don't blame me when you get run.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 23, 2008 7:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
I do not like the whole "Sox are the new Yankees" BS.  When we sign about 10 more 35-year-old+ pitchers for too much money, you can say that.  We're putting a team that is about 25% homegrown on the field.

my bad. from now on, i will refer to the Sox as "the new, improved, younger, cleverer, more efficient Yankees."

or "the new Yankees" for short.

if we go by your criteria, we can't really blame the Yankees for using their money to their advantage, either. i mean, what are they supposed to do, not crush the Red Sox repeatedly for the entire 20th century?

thanks for the sentiment, though. most Sox fans i've talked to seem to genuinely feel kind of bad about beating the Indians last October, which is cute. i think i'm mostly just bitter because i was rooting hard for those plucky Sox in 2004, without realizing i was witnessing the birth of a merciless juggernaut.

by jeremy on Jan 23, 2008 7:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
I don't blame the Yankees for their financial advantage, nor for, you know, killing the Red Sox every year until very recently.  (I do blame them for some very stupid FA signings recently--pot, meet kettle--though they've tried to steady that a bit recently, more's the pity, with Cano, and their new pitching crew for next year.)

But really, minus a miracle three years ago, we're just the (even) rich(er) man's Cubs.  That's the part I find a bit hypocritical.  If it weren't for the winning, there would be no criticism.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 8:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Cripes, this again?

Of course you don't like it, but it's still true.

What team spent $30 million more (20% more) than any other team and double the major league median payroll?  That's right, the Red Sox.  And what does that make them?  That's right, the new Yankees.

Manny Ramirez    $ 17,016,381
J.D. Drew    $ 14,000,000
David Ortiz    $ 13,250,000
Curt Schilling    $ 13,000,000
Jason Varitek    $ 11,000,000
Mike Lowell    $ 9,000,000
Julio Lugo    $ 8,250,000
Josh Beckett    $ 6,666,667
Daisuke Matsuzaka    $ 6,333,333
Eric Hinske    $ 5,625,000
Joel Pineiro    $ 4,000,000
Tim Wakefield    $ 4,000,000

and let us not forget

Dice-K's posting fee - $51,111,111

New Yankees.  New Yankees.  New Yankees.

We've got to deal with losing.  You've got to deal with this.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 7:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Who are you calling silly?

That you Sox fans continue to release these moral explanations is telling.  I swear I've heard this chant before.  Clearly you havn't made an earnest effort at analytical reasoning.  Ok, keep your 'homegrowns' and substitute Matsuzaka, Lugo, and Drew with other homegrowns and/or marginal players for all 162 games (like Tavarez, Wily Mo / Joe Blow, Jed Lowrie etc.)... Think this alternate team holds off the Indians, or the Yankees for that matter?

So--when you say much more--how much more critical was this thing you call 'player development' than your FA signings?

formerly 'tourist

by jhon on Jan 23, 2008 7:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
I'll certainly give you that Matsuzaka and Drew are not immediately replaceable from within the farm system (although we might be getting close with Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lars Anderson), but I think we probably could have managed nearly Lugo's production between Cora and Lowrie or something similar.

And like I've said a couple times now on this thread, there probably is some inherent guilt because I do not like the payroll disparity in baseball.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 8:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Well I guess I appreciate the sentiment.  As to "what do you want the Sox front office to do?"  How about back a salary cap?  Even if it means the loss of a whole season of baseball due to a player's strike I think in the long term it would be worth it.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 23, 2008 7:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Personally, I'd support a salary cap.  Maybe that's just me (well, actually, clearly not, looking at this board), but I've never liked the disparity there.  Which would, I suppose, explain a certain amount of defensiveness in my tone.

Well, thank you to the couple of people that were relatively nice.  I really do want you to win.  Really.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 8:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
This poster has provided an excellent example of why I find BoSox fans annoying.  There is no shame in having a high payroll, but for whatever reason, their fans are really ashamed of it.  

by ClarkM on Jan 23, 2008 7:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
I wouldn't call it "ashamed".  I do not like that certain baseball teams have more financial heft than others, and so maybe that makes me a little defensive about the Red Sox' propensity for spending, but it's certainly not what I'm thinking about most of the time.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 8:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Be it the money to sign those players away or the money to extend them or just the skill to trade for them, you still can't make any argument that the homegrown players were the 'key players.' That team is built on Ortiz and Ramirez and their top three in the rotation weren't homegrown.

If anything, argue that the Red Sox did a nice job in buying low on Beckett, Schilling (sort of), and Ortiz. Don't argue that the team is quaintly homegrown. I mean, you realize just because Manny's been there for however many years doesn't mean he's all the suddent not a FA signing, right?

You don't get it. It's fine, I don't know many, if any, fans of large market teams that get it. Any rationalizations like "What are they supposed to do? Spend less?" or "Well, you guys want more payroll right? So what am I supposed to do? Not like what you wish you had?" are ridiculous. The fundamental point is this:

The way the game is fundamentally structured makes it significantly more difficult for my team, the Cleveland Indians, to win the World Series than your team, the Boston Red Sox. This is bullshit and it should be changed.

No, I'm not going to stop watching baseball. No, I wouldn't be pissed if the Indians started spending more money. But that doesn't erase the primacy of the above. I want the whole damn thing scrapped and changed, and I don't want halfway apologies from the haves. I'd rather they just kept mum and, in their silence, I would assume they got it.

Instead, they cook up ridiculous excuses about how they're different than the Yankees. What you're trying to explain away is what Yankee fans gave up on years ago. You feel a measure of guilt but you don't think you should apologize. After all, you didn't screw up the system, right? You probably didn't even choose to be a Red Sox fan, though your use of 'ya'll' makes me wonder. And, you're right, the Red Sox do get some stuff right. The farm is strong, etc. But the ability to just throw money around and see what sticks is a great free agent strategy, probably the best one, and you get to do it with abandon.

Well, fine, You're right it's not your responsibility to change anything or feel bad about your team being good. But at least don't be short sighted about why your team is good and, if you want to be short sighted, don't try to explain yourself to fans of a team with a payroll of less than half of the Red Sox.

You get that? Less than half. Although I still love it, the game is broken. The cries of Red Sox fans of "Who, us??" just make it an even more bitter pill to swallow.  

by afh4 on Jan 23, 2008 8:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
And to go ahead and answer a point your making elsewhere, I don't dislike the way the Red Sox operate than I do the Dodgers or the Yankees or the Angels. In fact, I dislike them all in exact proportion to the amount they take advantage of a system my team isn't able to enter. So, Yankees 1, Red Sox 2, Mets (I think?) 3, etc.

It's not the winning. It's the unfairness.

by afh4 on Jan 23, 2008 8:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
I do get that.  Less than half, that is.

The clarity of your argument is admirable, and I almost entirely agree with you.

I probably should have phrased it differently than comparing the Sox and Yankees.  That always comes off sounding stupid, and I should have avoided it to start with.

I will not argue that Ortiz is not a lynchpin, and I do understand that Manny didn't just come from our farm system just because his signing was (relatively) ages ago, but I would argue you are overstating his regular season contribution (though not his postseason contribution) relative to Youkilis, for instance.

Let me try to re-state my main point: we are awful or evil or unfair because of the winning.  And that's the part I find aggravating (not the winning, obviously, the improper labelling).  If we had lost in '04 or '07 (both times, it certainly could have happened), we would still be a relatively appreciated team by the other fanbases in MLB (who cheered us on in '04), but because of the winning, we get spat on.  I'll deal with that (since I have to), but I just think it's a little hypocritical that one change in a ball's spin here or there and suddenly no one hates us.

I'm not trying to deny you your right to be angry with the salary system in baseball--I don't like it either.

Well, I honestly hope you get to deal with the envy fairly soon.  Everything about your team (rotation, bullpen, lineup) looks pretty stellar, so I feel cautiously optimistic that you'll get the chance.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 9:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Fair enough.

But, to repeat what Jay said, you get to deal with some venom and we get to deal with losing. As you've said, that might change in the future but for now, that's the state of things.

Besides, I think all of the "hatred" in the baseball world really exists for less than obsessive fans. I can talk to a fan of any team and become fast friends if they're waist deep in love of baseball. It's fun to talk about free agents, minor league players, all that stuff with someone who knows about it. Nobody who really loves baseball, Red Sox fan or otherwise, wants to get in an hour long argument over J.D. Drew. I think we all agree it's an unappealing, uninteresting, and vulgar part of following baseball, or something to that effect.

Now, if you want to argue Jed Lowrie vs. Asdrubal, that's something that would be fun. It's all hope and potential, everything baseball is supposed to be.

As I'm sure you know, you're not responsible for legions of people in Pink and Green hats emblazoned with "B's" but you're going to have to take some heat for them and their disgusting accents. It's the breaks.

by afh4 on Jan 23, 2008 9:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Okay, now that we are being civil (and understand, I am not trolling, I'm not interested in that): what do Indians fans think of Chief Wahoo?  Is there a divide in the fanbase as regards the logo or is it fairly solid that most people like it?

(And yeah, I'm aware that the Red Sox were pretty much the most actively racist team in the league in past decades.)

I just wanna talk rationally with the "opposition".  The nastiness of which, as you put it, sort of disappears the more obsessive or intelligent the fan you are talking to is.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
any time i've seen a discussion about this on this site, it seems like at least half of those who respond are in favor of at least phasing out the Chief if not doing away with him entirely.

i think that might not reflect the views of the Indians fan base as a whole, though.

by jeremy on Jan 24, 2008 4:52 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Cool, that's about what I would have expected.  Thanks for the reply.

Has any newspaper or magazine ever done a kind of canvassing of the Indians fans about this issue?  Well, I'm sure they have.  But I mean, were any of them worth reading if you remember?

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 10:51 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
 Let me take this opportunity to explain something to you.  The reason we "cheered (you) on in '04" is because every true baseball fan in America really hates the Yankees.  In just about every sport I root for two teams.  In pro football it's the Browns and whoever is playing the Cowboys, college football it's Ohio State and whoever is playing Notre Dame, in college hoop it's OSU and whoever is playing Duke. For pro basketball it usta be the Cavs and whoever is playing the Lakers - now I just root for whoever is playing the Cavs.  

So if the al Queda Nine were playing the Yankee's I'd root for the ben Laden bunch - in '04 it just happened to be you guys.  I may hafta root for three baseball teams now and throw in the BoSox opponents in as another favorite.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 7:21 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
One more thing Devine: if you haven't already you might wanna read this thread.  It's a great demonstation of why we - and every other fanbase - hate the Yankee's and especially their fans.  Careful that you and yours don't become their clones.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 7:30 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
I haven't read it yet, but the reason I don't care much for (many) Yankees fans (though I do have some friends who root for them) is that they feel entitled to winning.  Last year when the Sox were down 3-1 to y'all, I said to myself and others, "If they lose, it was still a good season; if they rattle off 3, that's great."

Mike Lowell said something in a couple of interviews about how any year in Boston where you didn't win the World Series is a disappointment, and I just don't agree with that (it's a bad way to watch baseball, when only winning will do for you).  It's enough in my mind to be competitive most years.  Maybe win it all every 8 or 10 years, if possible.  It's just mathematically unreasonable to "expect" a championship every year.  Certainly some Sox fans have grown tiresome or bullying because of the winning, but what can you do?  Someone in every fanbase gets to be a jerk when their team is on the top.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 10:45 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Reading that thread from Game 7 again was actually pretty entertaining, despite the obvious re-opened wounds. Upon further review, we're lunatics during the season.

by supermarioelia on Jan 23, 2008 9:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
Ugh, I was a wreck during that game.

I understand what you went through, and like I keep saying, I'm pretty sure you'll be winning it all relatively soon (though this year might be better than next with Sabathia on the market and all that).  That Shapiro dude seems pretty smart.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 9:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Red Sox fan here
i'm obviously late to this discussion, but the sox are the new yankees

2007 sox total win shares - 288, from non-homegrown players - 183 (maybe a couple more)

2007 yankee total win shares - 283, from non-homegrown players - 162 (including andy pettitte, who i felt was a debateable call)

while the homegrowns brought up this year may have been better than the players bought this year, the red sox were making the yankees look like chumps when it came to using other team's players to succeed.

by 7foot3 on Jan 23, 2008 10:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
To add to Betancourt's accomplishments, he is the only pitcher, as far as I know, that has allowed a baserunner to advance for taking too long to throw a pitch.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 23, 2008 7:14 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Here's the other thing, though.  I see arguments from Indians fans, here and elsewhere, that they would really prefer the Indians have a somewhat higher payroll.  Isn't this just becoming more "evil" or something?  $10 million is okay, but $50 million is not?

And yeah, I think the Yankees have every right to bash us in the head every year they can, financially and on the field.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 8:09 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The Indians payroll is below the mean and the median.  In fact, not one team really spends less than the Indians while still trying to contend.

I feel like people's eyes glaze over when comparing all these payrolls -- they're all 8 digits or 9 digits, so how different can they be, right?

It might help everyone see it more clearly if we divide the player expenses by $20 million, then round off.  (And I'm counting luxury tax and posting fees in this, because, hey, you spent it, and you only spent it because you could afford it.)

So here are all 14 American League payrolls, in units of $20 million:

Yankees - 12
Red Sox - 10
Angels - 5
White Sox - 5
Mariners - 5
Tigers - 5
Orioles - 5
Blue Jays - 4
Athletics - 4
Twins - 4
Rangers - 3
Royals - 3
Indians - 3
D-Rays - 1

Maybe it's now coming into focus.  Now here's another version of the list, but this time, we're just going to leave the Yankees out of it:

Red Sox - 10
Angels - 5
White Sox - 5
Mariners - 5
Tigers - 5
Orioles - 5
Blue Jays - 4
Athletics - 4
Twins - 4
Rangers - 3
Royals - 3
Indians - 3
D-Rays - 1

Are you starting to see it now?  People lose track of the disparity, but despite the Yankees being even higher, Boston's spending advantage over the other 12 teams is grotesque.  Now here's a third version:

Angels - 5
White Sox - 5
Mariners - 5
Tigers - 5
Orioles - 5
Blue Jays - 4
Athletics - 4
Twins - 4
Rangers - 3
Royals - 3
Indians - 3
D-Rays - 1

With the Red Sox and Yankees not even mentioned, we have an economic system that is merely terrible.

So we have, in sum:

  • A horrible economic imbalance among 12 teams.
  • One team with a grotesque advantage over the richest of those 12.
  • One team with a grotesque advantage even over that other team's grotesque advantage.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 9:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Jay, I think you are being a bit hard on me.  I recognize you are a blog leader, but I think you're bashing away, rather than allowing for the possibility I might not be stupid or a rabble-rouser.

by Devine on Jan 23, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Why don't you just address what he's saying instead of crying about it?

Oh yeah...because you know he's right.

by Kos on Jan 23, 2008 10:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I don't think I'm being the least bit hard on you.  Who asked you to show up and make this thread about how you don't like the Sox being called the new Yankees, anyway?  Not me.  You asked for it, you got it.

Anyway, I'm not really directing my comments at you on a personal level, I'm just trying to make the point clear.  I really do think that the degree of disparity is not really clear in most people's minds, and I think my little "divide by 20 million" exercise is a pretty good way of making it plain.

You don't have to like it.  You don't have to like gravity, either, but it exists anyway.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 10:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
So you don't think you're being the least bit hostile?  Fine, I've agreed a billion times on this thread that payroll disparity is grossly unfair and that I'm not even comfortable with it as regards the advantage it gives my team.  Yet you keep slamming me into the ground like I said, "Man, I don't know what you guys are talking about with this payroll disparity thing."

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 10:39 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I'm going to try to take that as a compliment.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 1:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
It wasn't. Devine was attempting moderate, reasoned discussion and you started unfairly antagonizing him. You tend to get heavy-handed in threads pretty easily. Just cool it sometimes and take a step back. I'm glad we get visitors from other teams.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 3:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Well, an equally inappropriate response would be, "Sometimes you get to being a dumbass in threads pretty easily."

Specifics, my friend.  Either you got 'em or you don't.  If you don't, then I think you should lay off the general critiques, of me or anybody else.  They're cheap.

If having an overwhelmingly strong argument is "heavy-handed," then I guess I should just stay away.  On this particular subject, I think those points generally haven't been made strongly enough -- here or anywhere else.

I like visitors, too.  I don't think I antagonized him or was unfair, so we'll just have to disagree about that.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 4:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I don't want to drag up specifics from here or other threads. I don't think that's productive. I'm willing to agree to disagree, with one note. Note that I did NOT say "Sometimes you get to being a dumbass in threads pretty easily." I made my opinion in a more respectful manner than that.

I can be good if you're good.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 4:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I know this will be hard to believe at your wise old age, but you don't seem to have anything to teach me on this subject.  We just disagree on what the appropriate response was in this instance.  (Maybe you didn't hear, this forum is a "conscious social experiment.")

Broad generalities are never useful criticism, and it is never respectful to offer personal criticism in public.  For that reason, your opinion was not one iota more respectful than mine, it was merely more genteel.

As you well know.

So you can drop the higher-ground posturing, you're waist-deep in this already.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 5:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Please do not be condescending about my age. I think we're all smart enough heard to know that age does not equal wisdom.

How come I get called out and another poster who refers to your mod style as "Machiavellian" gets no tongue-lashing?

I think you offered plenty of public criticism of Devine.

by Voltaire on Jan 25, 2008 4:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Hey, man, you're the one who broke into the condescending talk.  I can be good if you're good.

I found the Machiavellian comment interesting and not necessarily an insult.  I asked myself, what exactly does that mean?  And the first thing that came to mind was the basic precept that it's better to be feared than to be loved.  I have to admit, that is basically how I see things -- that it's more important to be feared as a moderator than liked.  My goal here is always that this be a great place for talking Tribe, nothing more and nothing less.  I figure enough people will end up liking me in the process that I really don't care of some people don't.

I'd rather people think I (actually we) deal with things fairly -- or at least that we're trying to -- than that we're trying to be well liked.  I can't worry too much about being well liked, although I'd like for people to understand that I'm well intentioned.  Our intention is to be fair and consistent and totally willing to exercise our authority, regardless of whether anybody likes it.  Lots of folks will want us to ban somebody, for example, and whether we do or we don't, I trust people know that we're trying to be fair and consistent.

The point being, I guess, that thinking of my approach as Machiavellian is at least an interesting and provocative idea.  I give points for that.  Consistently, too.  You can totally get away with being snarkier if you're also funnier or clevererer -- and surely you must know this, too.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 6:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The Machiavelli comment was not meant as an insult, just for the record. I am rather an admirer of his work.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 26, 2008 2:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Got carried away with all the Machiavelli stuff and forgot to comment on this ...

I think you offered plenty of public criticism of Devine.

Yes, but the difference is that I didn't have a high-minded moralizing tone like I was bringing civilization to the savages.  The guy made points, I answered them forcefully -- as I felt was warranted by the points, not by the person who'd made them.

I think my intention in some of those posts may have been misconstrued.  There was an element of "You are so far off base, let me show you just how far."  Yes, I admit that.  But I actually was just using his comments and questions as a springboard into a larger exploration of some issues that I feel strongly about, and have researched at length, but haven't posted much about.  I mean, you could probably tell, I wasn't just making stuff up off the top of my head.

So it may be that my massive explanations, in response to Devine, may have been construed as massive rebukes aimed at Devine.  That wasn't my intention, however.  Later on, yeah, as the guy annoyed me to the point where I actually acted annoyed.  I'll own that.

Thing is, though, guy comes into your house, starts peeing all over the rug.  You're yelling and screaming, hey, dude, WTF peeing all over my rug, are you nuts?  And he's all innocent, what are you talking about, don't you guys pee on the rug here?

Now I can allow that maybe this guy really doesn't realize that most people don't pee on the rug in their own homes.  I can explain it to him, forgive him, while still being confused as to how he ever got the idea that that would be okay.  Still and all, does that make me the bad guy for yelling and screaming at him?

I mean, you know, that rug really tied the room together, man.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 7:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
"At least I'm housebroken."
    -Jay/Dude

by mrich on Jan 25, 2008 7:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
(Confirming one of my pet theories ... Lebowski can end any argument on the Internet.)

by Jay on Jan 26, 2008 3:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Jay, you're out of your element! Dude, Voltaire is not the issue here!

by supermarioelia on Jan 26, 2008 12:05 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
When did I say you don't know what you're talking about?

You asked about whether calls to up the Indians payroll weren't in conflict with calling Boston "the new Yankees."  I answered by explaining that I felt the full scale and extent of the disparity aren't fully appreciated without a close look, such that the Indians increasing payroll significantly wouldn't remotely be the same thing as what Boston has been doing.

And then I illustrated that point, at length.

Dude, why are you here?  This is a thread about re-sigining Betancourt.  Then you show up and want to rehash ALCS Game Seven -- not a favorite subject around here.  Then you spend half of that post whining about your David-becomes-Goliath issues -- totally off-topic and potentially antagonizing.

And then, when that doens't go well, you try to steer the conversation into a debate Chief Wahoo -- another potentially explosive subject and completely off-topic.

You want to turn this conversation into one about the Red Sox?  Here's the real connection.

  • Boston releases Betancourt.
  • Cleveland picks him up off the scrap heap.
  • Betancourt becomes dominant reliever.

while

  • Cleveland drafts and develops Ramirez.
  • Ramirez becomes a superstar.
  • At the peak of his career, Manny becomes a free agent.
  • Boston outbids Cleveland for Manny with the second-richest contract ever.

So now we both have an elite player, and Cleveland successfully developed both of them while Boston successfully developed neither.  And that is the entire connection of this topic to the Red Sox.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 12:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I wanted to talk about the Indians, I'm genuinely curious about them, and wanted to know about their history and the fans.  But don't worry, I won't bug you anymore.  Thanks.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 1:10 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Lest anybody think we've run this poor nice boy off without cause, here's his original post:

Great signing for y'all.  Was really impressed by this guy in the ALCS.

I just read y'all's 2007 Game 7 ALCS thread, and I wanted to say a couple of things.

   1. I sincerely hope y'all win a championship in the next few years--I understand your pain.  Your team deserves better than it got last year and a few bounces here or there and that series is yours (and almost certainly you would have beat the Rockies).  The only way I won't be rooting for you  next year is if you're in the Sox' path.  Seriously, I felt bad after the euphoria was over because it was so heart-wrenching for y'all.  Even more than the Cubs, you deserve the big shiny trophy, and soon.

   2. I do not like the whole "Sox are the new Yankees" BS.  When we sign about 10 more 35-year-old+ pitchers for too much money, you can say that.  We're putting a team that is about 25% homegrown on the field.  Yes, we use money to our advantage, but what do you want the Sox front office to do?  Not compete with the Yankees?  Our payroll deficit to the Yankees is comparable to yours vs. the Tigers this year.  "Spend smarter" is the mantra of both our front offices.  AND...if Boston hadn't won in '04, this "new Yankees" nonsense would not even exist; we'd just be "lovable losers".  I'm just a fan of a baseball team, like you are, and the implication that my team is "evil" or "buys championships" is offensive.

   3. It was our rookies and homegrowns that won us last year's championship (Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon) more than our FA signings (Matsuzaka, Lugo, Drew).  To say we bought that championship is silly; it was based much more on player development.

Next time, maybe he'll actually talk about the Indians, their history and their fans, rather than how awesome and un-Yankee-like the Sox are and hey what's the deal with that Chief Wahoo dude?

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 1:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Yeah, then I segwayed to saying I thought your team was great, acknowledging the unfairness of the salary system in baseball, and out of genuine curiosity and not a desire to stir the pot, asking about Chief Wahoo.  Wow, what a jerk I was.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 1:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You forgot the part where you whined anytime anyone made a legitimate point.

I don't think you're a bad guy or that you meant to annoy people, but intentional or not, your posts were profoundly annoying and would be on any Indians forum.  Take a moment and back up, maybe you'll be able to see it.

Sorry you had such a bad time here.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 1:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Devine, if you're still here I completely support you and encourage you to hang around. I thought all of your posts were respectful and well-intended. Jay, you're just being a big jerk. Stop.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 3:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Okay, I'll try and go completely uncontroversial, and I'll try to basically stay as respectful as I can while maintaining my own fandom.  Maybe we can start fresh, and I'll try to develop a thicker skin.

Who is your favorite Indians player (past or present) and can you give me context, what big moments you remember or what about them you liked (maybe what years they played)?

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 3:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I am very young (19) so my favorite Indians player is Coco Crisp. In 2003, the year I became the impassioned, insane, totally and utterly devoted Indians fan that I am now (yes, 2003), my family went to a game at AA Akron.

We arrived to find that starting in center field was some guy named Coco Crisp, recently acquired from St. Louis. Of course he instantly became our favorite Aeros player. I know he had a big game, too. I can't remember exactly, but I think he had two doubles that day.

Later in the year, I was listening to Indians pre-game and heard Tom Hamilton announce that the Indians had just called up the young Coco Crisp to replace an injured Matt Lawton (my memory is fuzzy - I think it was Lawton). I was delighted and cheered him on, figuring his time in Cleveland would be short.

Well, since you're a BoSox fan, you know where the story ends, but basically Crisp fought against the "fourth outfielder" label to claim a spot in the starting line-up, first in CF, then in LF.

Now, I'm as statistically minded as they come, and Coco's production was never much more than average. It made perfect sense for Shapiro to trade him when he did, selling high. But I will always remember his blazing speed, pathetic arm, great name, and perseverance to force himself into the outfield when the organization pegged him as an AAAA guy.

One of my favorite memories from 2005 is the Sizemore/Crisp one-two punch at the top of the lineup. The guys looked like they were good friends, too, and truly enjoyed being team-mates.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 3:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Wow - 19 - 19 - I'm not even sure I can remember what I was like when I was 19.  Self-righteous and self-assured - yeah I think I was - then maybe not.  Anyway that little fact helps bring into focus much of your ensuing posts.   Let me see if I can offer you a little insight.

So you've been a fan since 2003, is that right?  Since Coco Crisp played center field.  Now I get it.  The worst Indians team you've ever seen lost 94 games - pretty bad.  But then the quickly - quickly in Cleveland terms - turned it around and Bingo! Before you know it they're in contention.  

Us older guys - guys who've been watching the Tribe back when 100+ losses was not only a distinct possibility but all too often a reality- may have a different view point.  We watched the Indians get routinely abused by the Red Sox and the Yankees and the Orioles - can you even imagine a time when the Orioles were not just good but down right scary? - and the White Sox and the Royals etc. etc.  In fact my Indians have been abused at one time or another by every other team in the American League except the Rangers.  Unfathomable, non mon amie?   Not only was my team abused, but I, like every other Indian fan of this era, took a lot of bull from the fans of the teams that were habitually humiliating the team I loved.  After awhile I got a little defensive, prickly even.  After a coupla decades of their crap I got down right intolerant of many of the opposing fans.  

I know that Jay neither seeks nor would condone anyone making a case for the way he treated Devine.  So I won't.  I'll just tell you that I understand it completely.  If you have the chance to experience a coupla decades of bad Indians baseball maybe you will too.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 10:56 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Believe me, I know my baseball history. Of course, no matter how much I know about this franchise, I can never truly comprehend what it feels like to have followed the Tribe all those years.

Hopefully, I'll never have that experience. If Shapiro/Antonetti & co. stay in charge long enough it may be impossible for me to experience 47 years of hopelessness.

(This is not a criticism of you at all, but since some other posters have insinuated similar things, please don't automatically write me off because of my age. I of course cannot say I've followed the Tribe nearly as long as all of you, but that doesn't mean I don't have an immense appreciation and knowledge of the history of this franchise.)

by Voltaire on Jan 25, 2008 5:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Nobody's going to write you off because of your age, you just might get teased a little by the old timers.  That's your privilege, and yours is to return serve.

Lots of college folk here.  That guy Kos is only eight years old, sharp as a tack.  You're pretty sharp, too.

I'm 37, and I know for a certainty that I was a lot smarter at 19, and also a lot dumber.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 7:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I love how Kos just gets younger and younger.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 25, 2008 9:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Voltaire and Devine:

There is a difference between being respectful and well-intentioned, and being wrong.  They can co-exist, and simply being the former doesn't excuse you if you're the latter.

by nickjs21 on Jan 24, 2008 5:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Right, but many of the responses to Devine treated him as though he WEREN'T the former, which is why I was a little upset by our collective response.

by Voltaire on Jan 25, 2008 5:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Also, this ignores what I hope was my main point: if we hadn't won, we wouldn't be labeled this way.  And one change in a given postseason game here or there, and bang, we're not the "new Yankees".

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 10:53 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I think you'd still be labeled this way if you hadn't won.  By the pure financials and regardless of success, you deserve it (as Jay pointed out).  Also, as Andrew pointed out other "big" market teams get our scorn too (Mets, Angels).

Also!  Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Yanks' GIGANTIC payroll advantage really took root after they stopped winning (championships), no?

by kwoog on Jan 24, 2008 12:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
he's at least partially right. i can't bring myself to really hate the Mets. and i'd probably still think the Red Sox were lovable if they were still pouring all these resources into losing instead of dominating.

by jeremy on Jan 24, 2008 12:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Yeah, but the Mets suck AND are in the NL, so I agree about that.  But you're telling me it doesn't infuriate you to see the Angels give out a huge contract to a CF two offseasons in a row?  

Thus, on a proportional scale, it infuriates me that the BoSox have almost a virtual lock on a playoff spot every year.  I couldn't care less if they beat the Rockies or the Cards.

by kwoog on Jan 24, 2008 12:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
To me, BOS is much more dangerous because they have a competant baseball mind running their organization like we do, only with an extra $90M or so to spend a year. But you are right. BOS is more attacked because they have a high payroll AND win. They do so, at least partially, by buying other team's All-Stars who then thrive. If you picked bad players you would be looked at as incompetant and unfair (more like the Cubs).

Personally, I think the real reason (besides the facts) CLE fans especially can not be talked down from acknowledging BOS as the new Yankees is Manny. BOS straight up bought our homegrown mega-hitting future HOF OF. Manny was just being Manny in CLE long before he did it in BOS. In the end, he will retire in the BOS uniform and enter the HoF as such. We haven't had many HoF players in CLE in my life time. So Manny was and still is a huge kick in the balls to me. I am sure it is that way for many other fans too.

So when you come here and argue that Sox are not the New NYY(even as politely as you did) the arguement will fall on deaf ears. To me, they have been the same thing for years.

by KevinV on Jan 24, 2008 12:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Jay and friends, could we spend some time on this issue, if not here then some other discussion? It's been bothering a lot for the past several years, and it flared up its ugly head just this past October when my World Series plans were so rudely disrupted.

My questions:

Why in fact does MLB's "grotesque" economic imbalance continue?

What is the history of attempts, if any, to ameliorate the situation?

What plans or solutions have been seriously considered and what and who nixed them?

How is it that the small-market teams just go along with it, year after year?

The NFL and NBA instituted salary caps and other economic mechanisms years ago. Can we conclude that MLB is forever going to play the game that has lead to the reality that you've illustrated above?

I'm sure happy the Tribe is winning, especially with a stacked deck. But the truth is, I'm sure tired of the mega-market teams and their deep, deep pockets.

by ploni on Jan 23, 2008 10:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
This bears a much longer discussion, but here's some quick answers.

Why in fact does MLB's "grotesque" economic imbalance continue?

The imbalance results primarily from the fact that over the past 25 years, the development of the media economy means that a huge portion of all MLB revenue comes from local media contracts, mostly TV, which according to the Basic Agreement goes directly to the individual teams.  This is different from the NBA or NFL, as is the historical resolve and effectiveness of the union representing the players.  By law, almost any change in the way teams cut up the pie has to be approved by the union and thus is subject to collective bargaining.

What is the history of attempts, if any, to ameliorate the situation?

Each successive CBA since 1995 has increased (and tweaked) revenue sharing and luxury tax provisions, which have made a significant impact on competitive balance -- but not enough to counteract the growing role of TV revenues.  Thus the Yankees outspend the Indians four-to-one and yet still make upwards of $100 million profit, while the Indians barely break even.  The natural economic causes of the disparity have simply grown far faster than measures to counteract them.

What plans or solutions have been seriously considered and what and who nixed them?

Reportedly, the owners have had a tougher time figuring it out amongst themselves than getting the union to go along with it.  Obviously the union would resist a salary cap, possibly to the death, and doesn't love revenue sharing either, but they've been negotiated.

/How is it that the small-market teams just go along with it, year after year?

What choice do they have?  The system can only be changed every 5-8 years with a new CBA, and plenty of small-market owners have made a pretty profit merely by owning a non-competitive team.  In this respect, both revenue sharing and tax incentives in the first few years of new team ownership have hurt the cause.

The NFL and NBA instituted salary caps and other economic mechanisms years ago. Can we conclude that MLB is forever going to play the game that has lead to the reality that you've illustrated above?

Maybe not forever, but I don't expect it will be changed soon.  I think it has to get worse before it will get better, because MLB as a whole, both owners and players, may actually benefit by having the contending teams more concentrated into major media markets -- the "contention effect" on revenue may be fairly constant, so that pure overall revenue is increased by multiplying that factor times a larger fan base.  And everybody shares in the extra profit somewhat, so how much is revenue sharing really helping?

One interesting and slightly positive development is that the teams and union have agreed that MLB controls and even distributes all media income from the Internet, and as the Internet and cable networks converge, MLB may centralize a much larger slice of each team's schedule -- someday, maybe all of it.  But significant movement on those fronts is still many years away.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 10:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Thanks, Jay, for your input. But we have to get into this deeper because, the truth is, I'm still angry.

by ploni on Jan 24, 2008 9:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Everybody's making too much money under the current format to want to mess with anything, especially the players. There's almost no chance they consent to one in the next collective bargaining agreement, because it would very likely cut their dollars. curtailing the boston's and new york's would only drive spending down. Also part of this process is that owners aren't forced to allocate a certain percentage of revenue to player salaries which the NFL and NBA are. as a result, MLB players make about 41% of the total revenue, while the other 2 groups of players make something like 53% (NFL) and 51% (NBA).

by 7foot3 on Jan 23, 2008 10:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
FYI, here is a link with the highs and lows from last season on payrolls. Unfortunately it doesn't contain all 30 teams. But some highlights:

While their streak of AL East titles ended at nine, the Yankees wound up with a record payroll of $218.3 million.

The World Series champion Boston Red Sox were a distant second at $155.4 million, according to information received by clubs from the commissioner's office. The Los Angeles Dodgers were third at $125.6 million, followed by the New York Mets ($120.9 million), Chicago Cubs ($115.9 million), Seattle ($114.4 million), Los Angeles Angels ($111 million), Philadelphia ($101.8 million), San Francisco ($101.5 million) and the Chicago White Sox ($100.2 million).

and the really scary one:

In addition to the largest payroll, the Yankees have the highest revenue in the majors. New York took in $415 million last year, giving about $100 million of it away in the sport's revenue-sharing plan.

Both the Yankees and New York Mets will receive revenue boosts in 2009, when they move into new stadiums.

I can only imagine the amount the BoSox pulled in as revenue.

Also, with new ballparks, can you just see that the Yankee$ will be netting close to day a billion dollars a year?

Egads, if that doesn't scream payroll disparity, I don't what does. Guess it will truly be an All-Star at every position and rotation and the bench if that truly happens.

Also, I don't think the posting fees are included in any of the above numbers. So you can add $50M to the BoSox since they posted it this year. Or if you want to be petty, split the $50 over the six years, so add $8M+ for this season.

by talonk on Jan 23, 2008 11:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Betancourt's head has grown by a million sizes since 2000. Really! And he uses a top secret brace that supplies 'roids directly into his bloodstream DURING games.

The Indians disgust me and I am so sad when I think of the children.

by royalsreview on Jan 23, 2008 9:11 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
This thread didn't feel right until RR showed up

by Roger Dorn on Jan 23, 2008 9:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
If the Gregario Rosario thing doesn't work out, The Indians disgust me and I am so sad when I think of the children makes a fine banner.

by nickjs21 on Jan 23, 2008 11:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You rock. No question.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 23, 2008 11:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
High five.
Will children still wake up early to eagerly check the sports page to see who is leading the league in holds?

by smtp on Jan 24, 2008 12:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
After seeing Betancourt damn himself to eternal torment because of his national innocence destroying actions, <s>Byrd</s> Sizemore places a picture of his family near the HGH bottle on the road...

so he knows what he's throwing away if he give into temptation

by royalsreview on Jan 24, 2008 12:51 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
That's the best you can do? I'm disapppointed.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 12:48 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Sure, when fans packed the stadiums to see Betancourt chase immortality in pursuit of the Holds record, no one said anything. When we all followed his FIP and PRC ratings, we all just shrugged our shoulders. When he led the Tribe bullpen in WPA, all we could talk about with Triv the next day was how exciting things were at the Jake. When his WXRL totals climbed ever higher, we all just accepted that it was natural and a testament to his "training regime".

Blood is on OUR hands. The blood of our dead National Innocence. Three weeks late the coroner told us something else, this was a double murder: she was pregnant with Sanctity of Old Journalist's Worldview.

Thank God Congress is addressing this issue. Thank God MLB spent $40 million on the Mitchell Report. Sure, our National Innocence is dead. But as I stand atop her cenotaph, I've never felt stronger in my moral convictions.

by royalsreview on Jan 24, 2008 12:58 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

might as well...

I'm getting married in Cleveland in August. But now I fear Cleveland may not be left standing by then.

STEROIDS DESTROY CITIES!

by royalsreview on Jan 24, 2008 1:17 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: might as well...
Very sporting of you to put Byrd in a KC cap.  I can't tell, are they shooting death rays at her, or is she farting on their heads?

And is she holding Baby Jesus and his Baby Dinosaur?

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 9:27 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: might as well...
Reminds me of the Bloody Mary South Park episode

by Roger Dorn on Jan 24, 2008 10:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: might as well...
Epic.
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2008 11:02 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
wow. you definitely answered that challenge.
and taught me a new word.

by jeremy on Jan 24, 2008 4:44 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Just bloody brilliant.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 24, 2008 11:51 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
my new pet peeve is "home grown" as an argument for anything, especially when it is defending budget disparity.  having more budget is a big advantage in the amateur draft and obviously in the foreign FA real estate market.

by Brick. on Jan 23, 2008 10:32 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And in retaining your own players.  The Sox kept Varitek and Wakefield but plucked Manny and Beckett away from poorer teams.  "Home grown" shouldn't really count players who are still there after 6-8 years.

by Jay on Jan 23, 2008 10:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
i'm most annoyed at the insinuation that the red sox made a keen move to grab josh beckett.

every team wanted him.  but the red sox bought josh beckett.

yes, hanley ramirez is a stud.  but the only reason that deal got done was the red sox ABILITY (not just their willingness) to take on mike lowell.

the indians could have used a gold-glove caliber 3B and a stud starting pitcher.  

but no team other than the red sox was willing to give up talent AND gamble $16M on mike lowell.

the red sox can, and did.  and that's the only reason they got josh beckett.  that front office gets so much credit, and deservedly so.

given the choice to make the deal and not have to take on lowell, at the time, i bet the red sox do the deal without lowell.  nevertheless, he turns out to be quite a useful player.

but had they not had black holes, there would have been no need to go out and sign a david ortiz AND a kevin millar AND a bill mueller AND an edgar renteria AND a jd drew AND and and and....

and really, is there any pressure?  when you can buy renteria and then pay another team to take him so you can make a worse investment in julio lugo, who'll probably survive boston for one more year, you know you can't cripple the franchise with one risk.

they bought schilling from arizona by giving him a contract extension. they bought the best international free agent pitcher with a mere $100 investment.  

correct me if i'm wrong, but...prior to travis hafner's contract extension, would julio lugo, the number NINE hitter for the red sox, not have been the largest total contract in indians' history had they signed him to the same deal?

the only possible exception i can think of was roberto alomar's deal...

by rick on Jan 23, 2008 11:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
This is exactly the point that my Red Sox and Yankee fan friends can't seem to grasp. It is vastly more important to retain your own players, because it is typically the best players on your team that walk as free agents.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 24, 2008 8:10 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Well, I think you might be weakening your own case.  Varitek was traded for (from Seattle) and Wakefield was picked off the scrap heap after Pittsburgh let him go.  I guess it's still more "honorable" than buying them up to acquire them, but it's not exactly raising them through the farm system.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 11:08 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You missed the point on that one. What Jay was inferring was that when Varitek became eligible for free agency, Boston didn't really blink an eye to offer him four years at $9M each. No small market team could do such a thing.

While you agree the payroll disparity is totally unfair, what I have a problem with is that it's not just the $150M vs the $60M disparity that really hurts.

What really hurts is the ability of the Red Sox and Yankees to be able to draft the Boras clients in the mlb draft. You know, the guys like Chamberlain, etc who are saying they want $5M signing bonuses, etc. Teams like Tampa Bay and KC cannot financially do such things.

To top it off, both Cashman and Epstein are now focusing on the minors much more than they used to. So not only can they throm mega$ around to FA, or trade for large contracts when a small market team can't keep them at arbitration, etc, but now they are throwing huge $$ into the minors as well. Not to mention the large sums to Japanese players, Latin America etc. No way the smaller market teams can compete with that.

It really is going to get ugly when both the Yankee$ and Red $ox have all the Santana, Manny type players AND all the high priced amateur talent under contract. We may as well close up shop at that point.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 11:28 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Don't forget simply re-signing your own prospects. We could lock up CC tomorrow if we were willing to and able to give him 6/125.

by Kos on Jan 23, 2008 10:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
"Defending budget disparity"?  When I said elsewhere I'd favor a salary cap?

Nuh-uh, I ain't defending that.  I feel bad about it.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 11:01 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
i'd have replied to your comment specifically had i been targetting just you.  people roll this tired stuff out all the time, not just you.  when i hear "Hey, Rivera and Posada and Jeter are all homegrown" one more time, I'm libel to stop watching baseball all-together so as not to be forced to share it with such stupid people.

by Brick. on Jan 24, 2008 12:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Also, I know you don't need my pity, but I do feel I was gracious enough in acknowledging yours as a great team not to earn complete vitriol as a response (and I do feel like I'm showing myself as rational and sympathetic and getting at least some response).

I'll be watching you guys this year; I think even more than Houston, which is usually my "second team" (I'm from Texas--grew up watching Nolan Ryan on the Rangers--but went to school on the east coast, where I re-learned to love baseball).

Don't you feel like you're right on the verge?  Your situation right now reminds me of the Red Sox right after the '03 season...right on the effing cusp and ready to come back strong.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 11:18 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
People appreciate the sentiment, though I can see why some feel it is patronizing. Personally, I don't see why this whole discussion got started in a thread about Raffy Betancourt.
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2008 11:24 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Don't you feel like you're right on the verge?
Not really. Speaking only for myself, I felt like 2007 was the best chance the Indians were going to have to win a World Series for a long time -- with the exception of Hafner's down year, essentially everything went our way last season. CC and Carmona were dominant, the bullpen was phenomenal, the offense and defense were good enough, nobody got hurt, and the rest of the division had down years. Oh, and we went 5-0 against Johan Santana. And had a 3-1 lead in the ALCS. All that stuff broke our way and we still lost.

Tell me what the odds are of all those things lining up for the Indians like that any time soon?    I certainly expect the Indians to be at least "pretty good" this year, but 20 years of Cleveland fandom have taught me never to get my expectations up.

by mrich on Jan 24, 2008 11:36 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
i kind of agree. i think the Tribe will have a fine chance again this year, and possibly in years soon to come. but man, in any given year, even the super-dominant, absolute best team in baseball must have something like a 1-in-4 chance of winning the World Series. once the playoffs start, everything is a small sample size. baseball is just that way.

even if this team has the best record in baseball the next two years straight, it's no better than 40/60 that they'll manage to win a Series. when you're up 3-to-1 in the ALCS with Colorado waiting in the wings, it's reasonable to get your hopes up; but when you haven't started spring training yet and your budget-priced young team looks good on paper, you're a long way from "on the verge."

by jeremy on Jan 24, 2008 12:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Whoa there hoss - that was for our Bosox-by-way-of-Texas fan - "essentially everything went our way last season" is that the way you saw last season?  Here's a few things I remember:
·    Our closer designate retired before the start of the season
·    Our number 4 starter got hurt and played his way unto AAA
·    Our number 3 starter, after signing a huge contract got hurt
·    Half of our LF platoon popped a hammy, had surgery and was done for the year
·    Our two All-Stars-in-waiting - Marte and Barfield - flopped miserably
·    Olberto - Oldberto - need I say more?
·    Didn't some wise sage write on this very blog, "these are the times that try men's souls" when every poster was wringing his hands on this site in July when it looked like all was lost?
·    And oh yeah, didn't our number one offensive force go down like Paris Hilton at a rapper's birthday party?

No, everything did not go our way last year and we were still the second best team in all of baseball.  Ya gotta give Shap his props - this depth thing is a damn good idea.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 12:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
With the exception of Hafner's down year, which I mentioned, none of those problems you mention above were "core" guys, except Westbrook's 6 week DL stint.

And yeah, the depth was great, especially in the bullpen. Jensen Lewis in particular was a revelation. But we weren't counting on Cliff Lee, David Dellucci, Andy Marte, Josh Barfield, and Roberto Hernandez to carry us! I mean, if you were going to pick a bunch of guys on the roster to get hurt or suck, those are exactly the guys you'd pick!! What happens if next year it's (god forbid) Victor or Grady that blows a hammy? Or if (again, god forbid) Fausto's shoulder starts hurting?

I just think you can't count on any of the core members of this team improving in 2008, except Hafner. Don't get me wrong, I'm not burying us, this is a really good team and we should win around 90 games IMO. But that's not exactly "on the cusp" when you play in the same division as the Tigers and the same league as the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels.

by mrich on Jan 24, 2008 12:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Revisionist.

Lee and Sowers started the season as our #3 and #4 starters.  Of course we were depending on them.

Dellucci, Marte and Barfield were in our starting lineup -- granted, the bottom of it, but still 1/3 of it, and they were expected to get some 1500 plate appearances.

Oldberto was slotted in as co-setup with Betancourt -- as was Fernando Cabrera.

These were all key players coming into the season.  We weren't counting on them to be stars, but we were counting on them not to drop below replacement level, which most of them did.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 1:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Well I think you're overstating the degree to which we were depending on those guys at the outset of the season, but how's this for a rephrasing of my "everything went our way" comment above:

In addition to the players that had astoundingly great seasons (Victor, Fausto, CC), for every player that was below replacement level we were able to find a substitute at little to no cost who performed above -- and in some cases well above -- replacement level. Which was great! But you can't count on that going forward. And that's why I don't think we're "on the cusp" of a championship.

by mrich on Jan 24, 2008 1:14 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
What, what - we weren't disparately looking for a closer in April?  And we hadn't pinned our second base hopes on Barfield, and Casey wasn't supposed to be our super-utility guy leaving Marte to blossom at third base?  Man, I gotta revisit those April '07 threads again - I think I'm losin' it.

BTW, this thread is like our Spring Training tune up.  You boyz are almost ready for Opening Day posting.  Good to see you kept in shape during the off season.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 1:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I think we're just adding it up differently.

You take the performances of Lee + Sowers + Stanford + Laffey, it still adds up to one really awful fifth starter with an ERA around 6.00.  And keep in mind, we were expected to have a very strong rotation, with Carmona and Miller in the #6 and #7 spots.  Sabathia was somewhat better than expected, Carmona substantially better, but those performances were entirely counterbalanced by the disappointments.

Now I admit that unlike the rotation, the three position players -- really four including Trot -- were not expected to be a source of strength on the team, but they still managed to be profound disappointments even relative to the low expectations.  Pronk was 3-5 wins below expectations.  Victor was the only position player to perform above expectations, and he was expected to be quite good anyway.  His overperformance did not remotely balance the five disappointments.  I mean, we can just go look at PECOTA and add it up if you want.

The rotation may not be much better next year, because you're right, we did cover up the failures with depth pretty well.  But every projection system will predict more offense from the Indians next year at five positions -- LF, CF, RF, 2B and DH.  Sliding back at C, holding steady at 1B, 3B and SS.  It won't play out exactly that way, of course, there are always surprises.  But we should expect a significant improvement in the offense.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 1:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Only without the exorbitant payroll, overinflated salaries and enormous self-pity.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 24, 2008 11:52 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Right then, see ya later.  I was only trying to talk.

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 12:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
i wouldn't be too sensitive.  remember, you're in hostile territory of sorts - as the sole representation of a team just about all but one of us hate, especially now.  you should see the thread where the yankee fan showed up to stir the pot (not that that was your intention here).

by Brick. on Jan 24, 2008 12:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I too had put 2007 in my head as the year, so no, I don't feel like we're on the verge.  The verge was last year.  That verge was 2005.

You seem like a nice enough guy, but your team is "the new Yankees", and if you are not convinced of it now, you never will be.  While I understand your argument that you wouldn't have this classification if you never won, I whole-heartedly disagree.  You were "the new Yankees" when you were the not-so-lovable losers as well.  It's not about the winning.  It's about the arrogance and hypocrisy.  The crying from fans and management alike about the Yankees buying players you wanted (see Jose Contreras) while for many years before the Sox would do just the same to every other team in the league not named Yankees (see Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Johnny Damon).  Winning did not change these facts, it just brought them to greater light.

by dvd1204 on Jan 24, 2008 12:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I really believe we can only win in even number years.

1920, 1948 - wins

1954 (aberration), 1995, 1997, 2007 - losses

Yeah I know, am stretching it a bit.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 1:02 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Devine, I'm posting this in three places so I'll hope you'll see it if you don't want to wade through the thread. I appreciated your post and it's always refreshing to find an intelligent fan of either the Red Sox or Yankees. If I was the only one who enjoyed reading your posts, so be it, but I hope you stay.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 3:38 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
+ 1, and no Devine, you couldn't have started your own diary.  You would have been malingned for that as well.

However, absolutely a great thread.  Enjoyed every minute of it.  I could almost hear the crack of the bat.  The only sad part of this is the realization that pitchers and catcher have not yet reported.  If I could, I would buy you all a round of drinks.

-mike

by 94neverout on Jan 24, 2008 3:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
If I could, I'd make a toast to a great season of baseball in 2008.

On a vaguely related note, I think I'm going to enjoy my first full season with a good friend who is a true fan of the Yankees. Should make for a lively year.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 3:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
What, you wanna get us all popped for serving liquor to a minor?  Ain't I in enough sh#t already?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 2:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Um.... I don't know man, that original post of his stands out like a sore thumb. Here I am reading a positive thread about the tribe locking up our best reliever for a few years, and blam! out of nowhere some bostonite believes its necessary to start a conversation about how the Red Sox aren't the new Yankees. And if he posted a diary about it, it wouldn't have been any better, because none of us were talking about it recently why the hell would one think that an Indians message board gives a sht about how Red Sox fans feel about being labeled the new Yankees.

This all sounds a little self serving, like why does he need our agreement or support, we don't care about the red sox perception in the media. It sure as hell has nothing to do with the Bentencourt signing, and in fact has nothing to do with the Cleveland Indians... maybe he stumbled onto the wrong site, which if so he could easily scroll down the right side of this page and click over to the red sox page.

The nerve of these people.

by hans on Jan 24, 2008 4:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Although your point of it seeming off-topic is true, I personally think it's pretty relevant to the whole of the discussion here. I mean, last year's ALCS - all of us here have some pretty strong opinions about them. I think it's great that Devine stopped by - if all we ever did was pat ourselves on the back as we continually present one side of the argument and agree with each other, where's the intellectual growth in that?

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 4:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
that was poorly phrased - by "them" I mean Red Sox.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 4:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
My point is that we a nearing the start of a new season. And this red sox fan comes over here bringing up topics discussed months ago at the end of last season made in an aside during a game thread. Why? For our (tribe fans) needs? or for his (red sox fan)?. It's like a Jehova's witness knocking on your door then pushing his way into your house and espousing why you should join his religion. It was a very selfish post. Now if he came over to talk about the upcoming season and questions or comments about the Indians, thats another story, that involves the people here (you know Indians fans). I mean I guess he might of thought that it was ok to talk Red Sox stuff here because of our own resident Red Sox fan E5, but that is just not the case.

by hans on Jan 24, 2008 4:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Put down the pom-poms for a second. He came in and was dickish, he got called on it and then apologized. There was really no need for him to say what he did, when he did. Just because he decided to backpedal doesn't mean he is worth the sycophantic outpouring.

I daresay we do a lot more here than just back patting. I don't always agree with Jay, Brick, Eric, GFP, Adam, Edgar, either Nick etc. We all share ideas and get into a lot of debate, we don't need an outside instigator to do that.

Apparently Jay has a Machiavellian viewpoint on website control.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 24, 2008 11:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Dammit. I've fallen off the "list of posters" list. What do I have to do to best Erik? he posts like once a month.

/sarc

by afh4 on Jan 25, 2008 2:24 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
If I had an edit option you would be in there. Please accept my mildly sincere apology. Remember, I started Erik's fan club, I have to represent.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 25, 2008 10:58 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
It's because of your rampant diary starting ways.  Your propensity to go off all half-cocked and post new entries for every little story out there - never mind if there's enough on the subject to type 300 characters about - that has some writing you out of their blog wills.

by Brick. on Jan 25, 2008 1:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
At least you made the christmas poem... I'm going to be bitter about that for a while.

by gte619n on Jan 25, 2008 4:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
it would take a more talented person than i to get that many syllables to work smoothly into that rythm.

by Brick. on Jan 25, 2008 4:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You're much too modest.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 9:19 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Well now I'm asking as merely a respectful fan: who's your favorite Indians player (past or present) and why?  Can you give me some historical context?

by Devine on Jan 24, 2008 5:14 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Sandy Alomar is my favorite all time player.  He was a great catcher and could have possibly been a Hall of Fame player had he not been injured so often.  He always seemed to get ejected ever time I went to a game at the Jake but I thats another reason I respected him.  He didn't take crap from anybody and was a tough minded player.  His performance during the 97 post season is still fresh in my mind.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 5:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You are baiting us, sir, but since you're doing it in an artful way, and since we can count on Jay beating you up, the rest of us can afford, maybe, to rise to the bait.

Favorite Indian of all time: Dennis Eckersley.

'Member him? He's the Hall of Famer we sent you in return for a fungo bat and a Pine Tar Rag to be Named Later.

You guys had the colorful Curse of the Bambino. We have the Curse of Poverty coupled with occasional bouts of dementia.  How's that for historical context?

ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Jan 24, 2008 6:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Nah, I'm not baiting you.  I dropped a bad bomb to start with, but I've been nothing but respectful since then.  I disagree with Jay that I've whined every time someone's made a point...look back at several of my replies to early posts.  I've argued my own case sometimes, and agreed with others at other times.  I just think Jay was all, "Oh, look at this list of teams and their relative salaries and be sad and remorseful!"  And I know that list already...I look at salary lists as much as any baseball fan, so it was redundant info and not a comeback or succesful diss of any kind.

And thank you for the reply, I'm just trying to get a bearing on what are sort of the "big names" and "big games" in Indians history, and this seemed like a fine place to start.  Yeah, I know the Eck (though only historically); I can see why you'd appreciate him.

by Devine on Jan 25, 2008 10:47 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Thank you. The worst part of the Eckersley trade was that it was prompted by the fact that his wife was having an affair with our centerfielder. They picked the wrong guy to send out of town.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Jan 25, 2008 1:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Not just an affair, Manning married her after she and Eck divorced. I don't know if they're still married.

by mrich on Jan 25, 2008 1:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I honestly haven't been paying attention long enough to really have a favorite player in a Serious Baseball discussion way, y'know? I didn't follow the team during the late-nineties teams or anything, wasn't raised by Indians fans, etc.

And you know, barring the times I get irrational crushes on dudes, I really am not a Favorite Player kind of person. Although I really hope the Real Hafner is back this year. I like that guy.

Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Jan 25, 2008 9:37 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
People here complaining about the payroll disparity between the Red Sox and Indians are just plain Un-American.  America is about gaining any advantage that you can and isn't about stopping teams from spending what ever money they chose to.  The Red Sox, Yankees, Angels and Dodgers are not what is wrong with baseball.  The Twins, Marlins, Royals and the Tampa Bay Rays are what is wrong with baseball.  

When you have the money to improve your team you should use it and liberal to put a winning product on the field.  Miami is a very large market and have the potential to make hand over fist of money but they have a business model that some would argue works well for banking money and winning a World Series but in no way established fans.  

Fans are what drives profits and consistency.  The only way to establish consistency is to spend money on quality players (either homegrown or in the free agent market).  Teams that have wild swings in personal, payroll and winning percentage often have a distrusting fan base and do not draw as well as they should even when they are winning.  If teams run on a small profit margin and aren't willing to spend even above profits they will fail to acquire a national fan base.  The Indians have the ability to spend like the Red Sox but chose not to.  I am not upset with them if they don't spend like the Red Sox, I will not cry if they don't sign some player but I will cry if they don't put a quality product on the field year after year.

I grew up in Ohio and I am an Indians fan but had the Indians not been a winning team in the 90's, I very well could have become a fan of any number of other teams.  I am a fan of the Indians because they are entertaining and have been winners.  I love baseball and love the Indians and at this point I will always be an Indians fan but some fans acquired during our recent good run 05',07' will easily fall away and cheer for other teams if we don't consistently have winning teams in the near future.  No sane fan wants to suffer through seasons when you have no chance to win if they happen to often.  

You want to know why the Red Sox and Yankees have more fans and are adored by the media?  Its because they act like true Americans.  They don't complain about what other teams do to win, they do what ever it takes to win every game and every year.  Doing anything less is Un-American.  America was built on people who took risk and didn't look back and complain about what other nations were doing.  If our forefathers had be risk adverse we wouldn't have become our own nation and would been enslaved to another set of rules or beliefs.  

Don't whine about what other teams do or complain that baseball should have a salary cap. Complain about teams that don't try or take the revenue shared money and go home.  Failure is now ok as long as you are making a profit.  I don't cheer for the Indians because of Dolan or Shapiro, I cheer for them because they are entertaining.  The best way for teams to be entertaining is to be winners and be consistent about it.  Sure teams will have bad years and have years when the roster is old or needs an overhaul but if you don't consistently bring a winning product to the field you will lose fans and gain distrust.  

Our current ownership is running the team like it is a short term investment not a long term investment.  Teams like the current Red Sox and Yankees are not interested in only winning One World Series they want to win every year.  That isn't possible but that is their goal and fans respect that.

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 5:31 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The principles you describe belong to economics and politics, but not to sport.

All legitimate sports hold the ideal of a level playing field.  MLB simply does a very bad job of living up to that ideal.

I daresay baseball would be more popular in the U.S. if it had a level playing field, as the NFL and NBA have.  Americans love the underdog and want to see a fair fight.  If fans understood the game's economics the way they mis-understand PED's, they'd be furious.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 5:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Pretty hard to improve on a 6 Billion in revenue.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 5:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
While that number may be correct (you didn't provide a source), it is a proven fact that baseball is not the premier sport in America like it was for its first 75-80 years.

Look at the TV ratings first. The NFL buries MLB time and time again. While having only 16 games versus 162 does make a big difference, the popularity of football is because the fans do know that their team is NOT at a competeive disadvantage for very long. The NFL has a salary cap and floor that requires each team to spend a certain amount on player salaries. MLB has neither.

The NFL pools its revenues so all 32 teams get a fair shake (with a few minor exceptions of course). MLB does not have this. As Jay pointed out previously, the core of the $$ that teams use is from local media contracts, not the national package with Fox/ESPN. This is how the Yankees have a 5+:1 edge over small market teams.

While I agree the ownerships in KC, Minnesota, Florida do very little with the revenue sharing $$, even if they spent that money, they could not compete with the Bostons, New Yorks, for various free agents OR RETAIN their own superstars. Don't you think KC would have loved to have kept Damon, Dye and Beltran in their outfield? They were hard pressed to keep just one, and ended up with none of them. Had all three started as Yankees and put up those numbers, New York would not have batted an eye in signing all 3 to high priced deals.

When the Bostons, New York can field All-Stars at 5 or more offensive positions and have more than one former Cy Young winner on their payroll, and the small market teams are lucky to have 2 All Stars and/or a Cy Young winner, that is some serious talent disparity. Not to mention the disparities in the draft and Japanese/Cuban/Latin America players. The small market teams have virtually no chance for the high caliber players from the USA or abroad. They have to be very, very lucky AND good.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 6:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Do you honestly think its sheer coincedence that either Bos and NY have made the playoffs as the AL East winner and/or the Wild Card every year since the current alignment/Wild Card was established?

Note both of them have made it in 7 of the 13 years and four fo the last five years. That is some serious advantage they have over every other AL team in that timeframe.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 6:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You want to know why the Red Sox and Yankees have more fans and are adored by the media? Its because they act like true Americans.

They aren't adored, they're obsessed-over.  And it isn't because those teams/fans act like true Americans, it's because they believe it's more profitable to obsess over those teams and because they lack imagination.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 5:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
No kidding.  I'm wondering why it's so endearing when royalsreview does it.  There's not much of a difference, really.

by nickjs21 on Jan 24, 2008 6:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
By the way, are you calling the NFL, NBA, and NHL communist, Marxist, whatever since they establish a salary cap, etc.?

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 6:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Those leagues salary caps were born out of the sports poor financial health not a communist manifesto.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 6:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
No, basically what your initial rant said was that if baseball installs a salary cap, that it would be un-American. Since those leagues instituted a salary cap, therefore they are un-American.

Also!! The NFL was not even close to poor financial health when they established the salary cap. In fact, they had already passed baseball as the most popular sport at that time.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 6:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
These leagues have salary caps yet have consistent dominate teams like the New England Patriots(NFL), Chicago Bulls(90's NBA), Los Angeles Lakes (late 90's, early 2000's) and San Fransisco 49er's (late 80's early 90's, NFL.  These are also very soft caps to say the least and both sports have fairly good players to ownership relations.  Even if baseball had a salary cap and salary floor some teams would still spend the minimum and some teams (i.e The Yankee's and Red Sox) would spend to the max so what difference would it make?  The only thing it effectively does is reduce player salaries.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 7:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
While the NBA is a soft cap, the NFL's is not. While the Patriots are a semi-dynasty, they are essentially the first since the cap was installed. And why is that? It is because they manage their roster similar to the Indians. A lot of good players on good contracts. Not a bunch of Yankee type contracts on that roster.

And the Niners predated the cap, so your inference above is incorrect on that account.

And I see you didn't bother responding to my other comments above.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 8:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Colour me un-American I guess. I tried so hard too.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 24, 2008 11:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
E you've demonstrated your complete lack of insight into biomechanics and physiology many times before, but this is the first time you've shown us your complete lack of understanding of economics and how it applies to running a successful business.  And when you couple that with your absolute lack of understanding of sports fandom it becomes clearer why so many of your posts are idiotic drivel - entertaining drivel but drivel nonetheless.  This post also offers another insight into the mind of E5 - your complete lack of familiarity with facts and how to draw logical conclusions from those facts.  In other words you don't know what the hell you're talking about.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 9:25 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Finally, some sanity within .....

Thx chuck!!!!

by talonk on Jan 25, 2008 10:31 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You know, I really don't think I can get into this argument without ending up arguing economic politics with you. I think a large part of this argument breaks down to either being economically conservative/laissez faire and thinking salary caps and the like are unAmerican, or being economically moderate to liberal and approving of limitations on capitalism. Ultimately, I think this is a lot like basic left-win/right-wing divides where it's essentially an unwinnable argument for either side.

But basically, I disagree, sir.

Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Jan 25, 2008 9:43 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I thnk as Jay said though, economics and politics compared to sports are not equals.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 25, 2008 10:17 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Yeah, after I typed this up I actually... read people's responses and I pretty much agree with you. This is why I shouldn't be reading/commenting at work, I think.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Jan 25, 2008 10:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
so my main question is: who is the Fist of Iron and who is the Fist of Steel?
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Jan 25, 2008 9:25 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The lyrics are:

Well, if ya see me comin' better step aside
A lotta men didn't--a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
And if the right one don' getcha, well, the left one will

Assuming the right one is iron and the left one is steel, Betancourt is Iron and Perez is Steel.

by nickjs21 on Jan 25, 2008 9:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Fist of Iron = Betancourt
Fist of Steel = Perez

From the song "16 Tons," which includes this verse:

If you see me comin', you better hide
A lot of men didn't, a lot of men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right don't getcha, the left one will

by fleerdon on Jan 25, 2008 9:48 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I am so strangely delighted by this.
Disclaimer: this post doesn't mean what you think it means.

by AngG on Jan 25, 2008 9:49 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Somewhat lost in all the East Coast BS discussion.

How awesome a story is it about Raffy?

And our nation's well being aside, you got to love the guy in the bullpen that throws strikes, No. Matter. What.  i mean the guy never has an off day where he can't find the plate.

Plus, he sounds like a pretty good guy - the Clevelanders love to love:

"This is like a dream come true for me and my family," Betancourt said. "I'll be here for three more years. I told my agent I really wanted to stay here. I just wanted to get it done. I'm excited."

And for the Ace Reliever lovers out there:

"I like where I'm at right now," he said. "I love pitching in those situations."

by Brick. on Jan 25, 2008 1:45 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Very cool. A class act all-around. I think he's as close as anyone will ever get in my "favorite reliever" category.
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 25, 2008 3:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Now that Miller's gone (sob) Betancourt has assumed that spot for me on the Tribe.

by Voltaire on Jan 25, 2008 5:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And our nation's well being aside, you got to love the guy in the bullpen that throws strikes, No. Matter. What.

Oh, yeah, I'm all about the strike-throwing.  I find it a lot easier to be forgiving of a guy if he throws strikes consistently.  If you're going to get beat, make him take it from you, don't just give it away.  Unless it's a really good hitter and you're behind in the count of course.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 6:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Hey, Jay, is there anybody to post an HTML table as a diary? If not, is there any decent way organize columns of data that doesn't involve me counting monospace &nbsp; 's for half an hour?

by fleerdon on Jan 25, 2008 6:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You can use the PRE tag, but I think only if you go into HTML mode, and you lose the handy auto-formatting when you do that -- so for example you end up having to use the P tag to break up paragraphs. I use PRE sometimes to post tables from some other source.

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R	H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA	 OBP   SLG *OPS+
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 2003 21 CLE AL  77  242   24	55  10	1   4	21   1	3  20  65  .227  .295  .326   67
 2004 22 CLE AL   8   25    2	 6   1	0   0	 2   0	1   3	6  .240  .321  .280   64
 2005 23 CLE AL 141  504   82  147  35	4  24	78   0	2  58 128  .292  .366  .520  137
 2006 24 CLE AL 149  569   84  146  28	3  13	68   0	1  56 152  .257  .323  .385   83
 2007 25 CLE AL 152  574   87  155  27	1  21	72   4	4  61 146  .270  .341  .430  100
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 5 Seasons	527 1914  279  509 101	9  62  241   5 11 198 497  .266  .336  .425  100
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+
 162 Game Avg	     588   86  156  31	3  19	74   2	3  61 153  .266  .336  .425  100
 Career High	152  574   87  155  35	4  24	78   4	4  61 152  .292  .366  .520  137
Works pretty good, though as always Preview works wonders. HTML tables also probably will work in HTML mode. Ryan and I both usually just embed graphics of tables, though it's kind of unfortunate that that is often the best way to do this.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 7:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
HTML tables also probably will work in HTML mode. No, they sure don't. At least not for me. I can't HANDLE this Netscape Navigator 2.0 crap, Jay.

by fleerdon on Jan 25, 2008 7:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Sorry dude.  Platform development isn't my gig here.  I've made myself available, but they've got some crack team on the case evidently.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 9:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
it's just a thing of beauty the way he comes in and says. "boys, i'm going to take my sweet ass time, and when i'm good and ready, i'm going to put it up in the zone, over the plate, and hard." every freaking time.  mojor leaguers will get dingers off of him, but they'd better be ready to swing every pitch coming.

by Brick. on Jan 25, 2008 8:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Wow Dylan McKay (90210 reference).  You've just been had.  BTW, nobody bother checking the link.  The site's horrible.  Thanks for the research.

by lesterjl on Jan 28, 2008 6:06 AM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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