Betancourt locked up through 2010
Details still coming in, but the AP is now reporting that the Indians have signed Rafael Betancourt to a two-year contract covering the 2008 and 2009 seasons, with a club option for a third year in 2010. Betancourt had been eligible for salary arbitration for the upcoming 2008 season, and for free agency after 2009. Similar to the deal given to Jake Westbrook after the 2004 season, this deal locks in cost certainty for 2009 and secures Betancourt's services for an extra year. More details to come ...
UPDATE: Paul Hoynes is now reporting that the deal is worth a guaranteed $5.4 million -- 2.05 in 2008 and 3.35 in 2009. The 2010 club option is for $5 million, and no guaranteed buyout, incentives or vesting terms have been reported.
Betancourt was signed as an amateur free agent out of Venezeula by the Red Sox in 1993 -- to play shortstop. By 1996, he'd bombed out as a hitter (478 OPS in Low-A), so the Red Sox tried to reinvent him as a pitcher. Despite some early success, Betancourt was dogged by injuries and released by Boston in 2002. Signed by the Indians in 2003 to a minor league deal -- Championship! -- he proceeded to mow down Double-A hitters as an Aero, to the tune of 75 K's in only 45 innings, and was in the majors by the All-Star break that same year. Though occasionally slowed down by injury, he generally has been a solid contributor ever since.
For the 2007 season, Betancourt arguably was the most dominant reliever in the game, posting a 1.47 ERA over 79+ innings. He held teams scoreless in 55 of his 68 appearances, allowed zero unearned runs all season, and never once allowed more than one run to score. He was exceptionally stingy with free passes, yielding only nine walks (in nine separate games) and zero HBP. In one 29-game stretch starting in early May, he gave up only two runs over 33+ innings, both on solo shots. (Outside of that stretch, his ERA was still only 2.15, which would have been the 7th best in the league.)
And as everybody knows, he led all major league relievers in both FIP and PRC.
The 2010 club option is particularly notable in that its price tag, $5 million, is low compared to other elite relievers and isn't even guaranteed. More than a dozen relievers are already paid a higher salary than that, and the number almost certainly will at least double by 2010. Betancourt will turn 35 in April of that season.
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by APV on
Jan 23, 2008 11:55 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by APV on
Jan 23, 2008 12:33 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 23, 2008 12:13 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by GatorTribeFan on
Jan 23, 2008 12:23 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Ryan on
Jan 23, 2008 12:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I am more or less satisfied with the Tribe's off season now. They did the 2 things on my list, so I can't really complain.
by KevinV on
Jan 23, 2008 4:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
- Find every reliever who had a season about as good as Betancourt had in 2007.
- Report back their stats from four seasons later.
- See if you still think this deal isn't long enough.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 3:40 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
1. Find every reliever who had 5 seasons as good as Raffy's first 5 at a similar age.
- This contract is not based on his having one dominant year. You should look at relievers that have been consistently at least solid, as he has been. He has a good track record and that should be taken in to consideration.
2. Report back their stats from 3 seasons later.
- We need year 3 data because if he is solid in 2010 we would pick up his 2011 option in the 3+1 scenario.
3. *Assess if a 1 year deal in 2011 would be a reasonable risk, based on the much lower rate we might have signed him for in 2008 by buying out 2 years of arbitration.
- If he were to be at least a solid reliever from 2003-2010, wouldn't a 1 year 2011 deal be a reasonable risk?
by KevinV on
Jan 23, 2008 5:07 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Betancourt has not been uniformly excellent for five years, by the way. How soon we forget a few trips to the DL and a pretty sour 2006 season.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 5:22 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by 7foot3 on
Jan 23, 2008 5:24 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The heart of the issue, as per your average whiny and shortsighted fan, is whether Betancourt's 2011 season is worth whining about at this point in time. My suggested homework would provide valuable data on that specific question.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 5:24 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by E5 on
Jan 23, 2008 6:40 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by APV on
Jan 23, 2008 12:44 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by afh4 on
Jan 23, 2008 1:29 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by afh4 on
Jan 23, 2008 1:36 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by ken from alexandria on
Jan 23, 2008 1:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Ryan on
Jan 23, 2008 1:51 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by afh4 on
Jan 23, 2008 1:52 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 23, 2008 2:02 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by nickjs21 on
Jan 23, 2008 6:50 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 23, 2008 3:30 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
He's no Scott Linebrink, but Raffy will have to do.
((that is sarcasm, please save your reply))
by Toxicadam on
Jan 23, 2008 4:15 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Now that it's official, are the Raffy-R and Raffy-L nicknames going forward into 2008 and beyond? Or have we come up with something better?
by APV on
Jan 23, 2008 4:42 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fleerdon on
Jan 23, 2008 4:53 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by jeremy on
Jan 23, 2008 5:40 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
"I'm stayin' right here, havin' fun, as usual."
by fleerdon on
Jan 23, 2008 6:35 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by nickjs21 on
Jan 23, 2008 6:48 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by nickjs21 on
Jan 23, 2008 6:49 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
That said, Raf-two-dee-two pleases me immensely.
by fleerdon on
Jan 25, 2008 12:15 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Now, since we don't have to worry about an arbitrator bloating his salary, we can potentially make him the closer if we want to (not that we wouldn't do this just to save money, but you know what I mean). Personally, I'm a relief ace guy and think he fits perfectly the way he's used now, but it's nice to potentially have a stud closer/relief ace type under our control for three years at a very, very reasonable salary.
by Kos on
Jan 23, 2008 4:58 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mjschaefer on
Jan 23, 2008 5:37 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
i'm guessing you mean "allowed zero inherited runs all season" in the fourth paragraph?
by jeremy on
Jan 23, 2008 5:44 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 6:12 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by talonk on
Jan 23, 2008 5:59 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by NickFantana on
Jan 23, 2008 6:40 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mrich on
Jan 24, 2008 10:28 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by nickjs21 on
Jan 23, 2008 6:50 PM EST
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Red Sox fan here
I just read y'all's 2007 Game 7 ALCS thread, and I wanted to say a couple of things.
- I sincerely hope y'all win a championship in the next few years--I understand your pain. Your team deserves better than it got last year and a few bounces here or there and that series is yours (and almost certainly you would have beat the Rockies). The only way I won't be rooting for you next year is if you're in the Sox' path. Seriously, I felt bad after the euphoria was over because it was so heart-wrenching for y'all. Even more than the Cubs, you deserve the big shiny trophy, and soon.
- I do not like the whole "Sox are the new Yankees" BS. When we sign about 10 more 35-year-old+ pitchers for too much money, you can say that. We're putting a team that is about 25% homegrown on the field. Yes, we use money to our advantage, but what do you want the Sox front office to do? Not compete with the Yankees? Our payroll deficit to the Yankees is comparable to yours vs. the Tigers this year. "Spend smarter" is the mantra of both our front offices. AND...if Boston hadn't won in '04, this "new Yankees" nonsense would not even exist; we'd just be "lovable losers". I'm just a fan of a baseball team, like you are, and the implication that my team is "evil" or "buys championships" is offensive.
- It was our rookies and homegrowns that won us last year's championship (Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon) more than our FA signings (Matsuzaka, Lugo, Drew). To say we bought that championship is silly; it was based much more on player development.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 7:13 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
Those homegrown players are really hated around these parts. I do not hate those homegrown so don't blame me when you get run.
by E5 on
Jan 23, 2008 7:23 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
by nickjs21 on
Jan 23, 2008 7:27 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
my bad. from now on, i will refer to the Sox as "the new, improved, younger, cleverer, more efficient Yankees."
or "the new Yankees" for short.
if we go by your criteria, we can't really blame the Yankees for using their money to their advantage, either. i mean, what are they supposed to do, not crush the Red Sox repeatedly for the entire 20th century?
thanks for the sentiment, though. most Sox fans i've talked to seem to genuinely feel kind of bad about beating the Indians last October, which is cute. i think i'm mostly just bitter because i was rooting hard for those plucky Sox in 2004, without realizing i was witnessing the birth of a merciless juggernaut.
by jeremy on
Jan 23, 2008 7:30 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
But really, minus a miracle three years ago, we're just the (even) rich(er) man's Cubs. That's the part I find a bit hypocritical. If it weren't for the winning, there would be no criticism.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 8:35 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
Of course you don't like it, but it's still true.
What team spent $30 million more (20% more) than any other team and double the major league median payroll? That's right, the Red Sox. And what does that make them? That's right, the new Yankees.
Manny Ramirez $ 17,016,381
J.D. Drew $ 14,000,000
David Ortiz $ 13,250,000
Curt Schilling $ 13,000,000
Jason Varitek $ 11,000,000
Mike Lowell $ 9,000,000
Julio Lugo $ 8,250,000
Josh Beckett $ 6,666,667
Daisuke Matsuzaka $ 6,333,333
Eric Hinske $ 5,625,000
Joel Pineiro $ 4,000,000
Tim Wakefield $ 4,000,000
and let us not forget
Dice-K's posting fee - $51,111,111
New Yankees. New Yankees. New Yankees.
We've got to deal with losing. You've got to deal with this.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 7:43 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
That you Sox fans continue to release these moral explanations is telling. I swear I've heard this chant before. Clearly you havn't made an earnest effort at analytical reasoning. Ok, keep your 'homegrowns' and substitute Matsuzaka, Lugo, and Drew with other homegrowns and/or marginal players for all 162 games (like Tavarez, Wily Mo / Joe Blow, Jed Lowrie etc.)... Think this alternate team holds off the Indians, or the Yankees for that matter?
So--when you say much more--how much more critical was this thing you call 'player development' than your FA signings?
by jhon on
Jan 23, 2008 7:49 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
And like I've said a couple times now on this thread, there probably is some inherent guilt because I do not like the payroll disparity in baseball.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 8:19 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
by mauichuck on
Jan 23, 2008 7:51 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
Well, thank you to the couple of people that were relatively nice. I really do want you to win. Really.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 8:04 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
by ClarkM on
Jan 23, 2008 7:59 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 8:16 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
If anything, argue that the Red Sox did a nice job in buying low on Beckett, Schilling (sort of), and Ortiz. Don't argue that the team is quaintly homegrown. I mean, you realize just because Manny's been there for however many years doesn't mean he's all the suddent not a FA signing, right?
You don't get it. It's fine, I don't know many, if any, fans of large market teams that get it. Any rationalizations like "What are they supposed to do? Spend less?" or "Well, you guys want more payroll right? So what am I supposed to do? Not like what you wish you had?" are ridiculous. The fundamental point is this:
The way the game is fundamentally structured makes it significantly more difficult for my team, the Cleveland Indians, to win the World Series than your team, the Boston Red Sox. This is bullshit and it should be changed.
No, I'm not going to stop watching baseball. No, I wouldn't be pissed if the Indians started spending more money. But that doesn't erase the primacy of the above. I want the whole damn thing scrapped and changed, and I don't want halfway apologies from the haves. I'd rather they just kept mum and, in their silence, I would assume they got it.
Instead, they cook up ridiculous excuses about how they're different than the Yankees. What you're trying to explain away is what Yankee fans gave up on years ago. You feel a measure of guilt but you don't think you should apologize. After all, you didn't screw up the system, right? You probably didn't even choose to be a Red Sox fan, though your use of 'ya'll' makes me wonder. And, you're right, the Red Sox do get some stuff right. The farm is strong, etc. But the ability to just throw money around and see what sticks is a great free agent strategy, probably the best one, and you get to do it with abandon.
Well, fine, You're right it's not your responsibility to change anything or feel bad about your team being good. But at least don't be short sighted about why your team is good and, if you want to be short sighted, don't try to explain yourself to fans of a team with a payroll of less than half of the Red Sox.
You get that? Less than half. Although I still love it, the game is broken. The cries of Red Sox fans of "Who, us??" just make it an even more bitter pill to swallow.
by afh4 on
Jan 23, 2008 8:48 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
It's not the winning. It's the unfairness.
by afh4 on
Jan 23, 2008 8:53 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
The clarity of your argument is admirable, and I almost entirely agree with you.
I probably should have phrased it differently than comparing the Sox and Yankees. That always comes off sounding stupid, and I should have avoided it to start with.
I will not argue that Ortiz is not a lynchpin, and I do understand that Manny didn't just come from our farm system just because his signing was (relatively) ages ago, but I would argue you are overstating his regular season contribution (though not his postseason contribution) relative to Youkilis, for instance.
Let me try to re-state my main point: we are awful or evil or unfair because of the winning. And that's the part I find aggravating (not the winning, obviously, the improper labelling). If we had lost in '04 or '07 (both times, it certainly could have happened), we would still be a relatively appreciated team by the other fanbases in MLB (who cheered us on in '04), but because of the winning, we get spat on. I'll deal with that (since I have to), but I just think it's a little hypocritical that one change in a ball's spin here or there and suddenly no one hates us.
I'm not trying to deny you your right to be angry with the salary system in baseball--I don't like it either.
Well, I honestly hope you get to deal with the envy fairly soon. Everything about your team (rotation, bullpen, lineup) looks pretty stellar, so I feel cautiously optimistic that you'll get the chance.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 9:06 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
But, to repeat what Jay said, you get to deal with some venom and we get to deal with losing. As you've said, that might change in the future but for now, that's the state of things.
Besides, I think all of the "hatred" in the baseball world really exists for less than obsessive fans. I can talk to a fan of any team and become fast friends if they're waist deep in love of baseball. It's fun to talk about free agents, minor league players, all that stuff with someone who knows about it. Nobody who really loves baseball, Red Sox fan or otherwise, wants to get in an hour long argument over J.D. Drew. I think we all agree it's an unappealing, uninteresting, and vulgar part of following baseball, or something to that effect.
Now, if you want to argue Jed Lowrie vs. Asdrubal, that's something that would be fun. It's all hope and potential, everything baseball is supposed to be.
As I'm sure you know, you're not responsible for legions of people in Pink and Green hats emblazoned with "B's" but you're going to have to take some heat for them and their disgusting accents. It's the breaks.
by afh4 on
Jan 23, 2008 9:24 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
(And yeah, I'm aware that the Red Sox were pretty much the most actively racist team in the league in past decades.)
I just wanna talk rationally with the "opposition". The nastiness of which, as you put it, sort of disappears the more obsessive or intelligent the fan you are talking to is.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 9:41 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
i think that might not reflect the views of the Indians fan base as a whole, though.
by jeremy on
Jan 24, 2008 4:52 AM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
Has any newspaper or magazine ever done a kind of canvassing of the Indians fans about this issue? Well, I'm sure they have. But I mean, were any of them worth reading if you remember?
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 10:51 AM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
So if the al Queda Nine were playing the Yankee's I'd root for the ben Laden bunch - in '04 it just happened to be you guys. I may hafta root for three baseball teams now and throw in the BoSox opponents in as another favorite.
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 7:21 AM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 7:30 AM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
Mike Lowell said something in a couple of interviews about how any year in Boston where you didn't win the World Series is a disappointment, and I just don't agree with that (it's a bad way to watch baseball, when only winning will do for you). It's enough in my mind to be competitive most years. Maybe win it all every 8 or 10 years, if possible. It's just mathematically unreasonable to "expect" a championship every year. Certainly some Sox fans have grown tiresome or bullying because of the winning, but what can you do? Someone in every fanbase gets to be a jerk when their team is on the top.
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 10:45 AM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
by supermarioelia on
Jan 23, 2008 9:05 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
I understand what you went through, and like I keep saying, I'm pretty sure you'll be winning it all relatively soon (though this year might be better than next with Sabathia on the market and all that). That Shapiro dude seems pretty smart.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 9:11 PM EST
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Re: Red Sox fan here
2007 sox total win shares - 288, from non-homegrown players - 183 (maybe a couple more)
2007 yankee total win shares - 283, from non-homegrown players - 162 (including andy pettitte, who i felt was a debateable call)
while the homegrowns brought up this year may have been better than the players bought this year, the red sox were making the yankees look like chumps when it came to using other team's players to succeed.
by 7foot3 on
Jan 23, 2008 10:10 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Roger Dorn on
Jan 23, 2008 7:14 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And yeah, I think the Yankees have every right to bash us in the head every year they can, financially and on the field.
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 8:09 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I feel like people's eyes glaze over when comparing all these payrolls -- they're all 8 digits or 9 digits, so how different can they be, right?
It might help everyone see it more clearly if we divide the player expenses by $20 million, then round off. (And I'm counting luxury tax and posting fees in this, because, hey, you spent it, and you only spent it because you could afford it.)
So here are all 14 American League payrolls, in units of $20 million:
Yankees - 12
Red Sox - 10
Angels - 5
White Sox - 5
Mariners - 5
Tigers - 5
Orioles - 5
Blue Jays - 4
Athletics - 4
Twins - 4
Rangers - 3
Royals - 3
Indians - 3
D-Rays - 1
Maybe it's now coming into focus. Now here's another version of the list, but this time, we're just going to leave the Yankees out of it:
Red Sox - 10
Angels - 5
White Sox - 5
Mariners - 5
Tigers - 5
Orioles - 5
Blue Jays - 4
Athletics - 4
Twins - 4
Rangers - 3
Royals - 3
Indians - 3
D-Rays - 1
Are you starting to see it now? People lose track of the disparity, but despite the Yankees being even higher, Boston's spending advantage over the other 12 teams is grotesque. Now here's a third version:
Angels - 5
White Sox - 5
Mariners - 5
Tigers - 5
Orioles - 5
Blue Jays - 4
Athletics - 4
Twins - 4
Rangers - 3
Royals - 3
Indians - 3
D-Rays - 1
With the Red Sox and Yankees not even mentioned, we have an economic system that is merely terrible.
So we have, in sum:
- A horrible economic imbalance among 12 teams.
- One team with a grotesque advantage over the richest of those 12.
- One team with a grotesque advantage even over that other team's grotesque advantage.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 9:26 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 23, 2008 9:41 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Oh yeah...because you know he's right.
by Kos on
Jan 23, 2008 10:08 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Anyway, I'm not really directing my comments at you on a personal level, I'm just trying to make the point clear. I really do think that the degree of disparity is not really clear in most people's minds, and I think my little "divide by 20 million" exercise is a pretty good way of making it plain.
You don't have to like it. You don't have to like gravity, either, but it exists anyway.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 10:19 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 10:39 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mrich on
Jan 24, 2008 10:42 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 1:53 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 3:39 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Specifics, my friend. Either you got 'em or you don't. If you don't, then I think you should lay off the general critiques, of me or anybody else. They're cheap.
If having an overwhelmingly strong argument is "heavy-handed," then I guess I should just stay away. On this particular subject, I think those points generally haven't been made strongly enough -- here or anywhere else.
I like visitors, too. I don't think I antagonized him or was unfair, so we'll just have to disagree about that.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 4:45 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I can be good if you're good.
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 4:48 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Broad generalities are never useful criticism, and it is never respectful to offer personal criticism in public. For that reason, your opinion was not one iota more respectful than mine, it was merely more genteel.
As you well know.
So you can drop the higher-ground posturing, you're waist-deep in this already.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 5:29 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
How come I get called out and another poster who refers to your mod style as "Machiavellian" gets no tongue-lashing?
I think you offered plenty of public criticism of Devine.
by Voltaire on
Jan 25, 2008 4:59 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I found the Machiavellian comment interesting and not necessarily an insult. I asked myself, what exactly does that mean? And the first thing that came to mind was the basic precept that it's better to be feared than to be loved. I have to admit, that is basically how I see things -- that it's more important to be feared as a moderator than liked. My goal here is always that this be a great place for talking Tribe, nothing more and nothing less. I figure enough people will end up liking me in the process that I really don't care of some people don't.
I'd rather people think I (actually we) deal with things fairly -- or at least that we're trying to -- than that we're trying to be well liked. I can't worry too much about being well liked, although I'd like for people to understand that I'm well intentioned. Our intention is to be fair and consistent and totally willing to exercise our authority, regardless of whether anybody likes it. Lots of folks will want us to ban somebody, for example, and whether we do or we don't, I trust people know that we're trying to be fair and consistent.
The point being, I guess, that thinking of my approach as Machiavellian is at least an interesting and provocative idea. I give points for that. Consistently, too. You can totally get away with being snarkier if you're also funnier or clevererer -- and surely you must know this, too.
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 6:52 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fwembt on
Jan 26, 2008 2:58 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I think you offered plenty of public criticism of Devine.
Yes, but the difference is that I didn't have a high-minded moralizing tone like I was bringing civilization to the savages. The guy made points, I answered them forcefully -- as I felt was warranted by the points, not by the person who'd made them.
I think my intention in some of those posts may have been misconstrued. There was an element of "You are so far off base, let me show you just how far." Yes, I admit that. But I actually was just using his comments and questions as a springboard into a larger exploration of some issues that I feel strongly about, and have researched at length, but haven't posted much about. I mean, you could probably tell, I wasn't just making stuff up off the top of my head.
So it may be that my massive explanations, in response to Devine, may have been construed as massive rebukes aimed at Devine. That wasn't my intention, however. Later on, yeah, as the guy annoyed me to the point where I actually acted annoyed. I'll own that.
Thing is, though, guy comes into your house, starts peeing all over the rug. You're yelling and screaming, hey, dude, WTF peeing all over my rug, are you nuts? And he's all innocent, what are you talking about, don't you guys pee on the rug here?
Now I can allow that maybe this guy really doesn't realize that most people don't pee on the rug in their own homes. I can explain it to him, forgive him, while still being confused as to how he ever got the idea that that would be okay. Still and all, does that make me the bad guy for yelling and screaming at him?
I mean, you know, that rug really tied the room together, man.
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 7:01 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
-Jay/Dude
by mrich on
Jan 25, 2008 7:51 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Jay on
Jan 26, 2008 3:20 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fleerdon on
Jan 26, 2008 4:20 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by supermarioelia on
Jan 26, 2008 12:05 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You asked about whether calls to up the Indians payroll weren't in conflict with calling Boston "the new Yankees." I answered by explaining that I felt the full scale and extent of the disparity aren't fully appreciated without a close look, such that the Indians increasing payroll significantly wouldn't remotely be the same thing as what Boston has been doing.
And then I illustrated that point, at length.
Dude, why are you here? This is a thread about re-sigining Betancourt. Then you show up and want to rehash ALCS Game Seven -- not a favorite subject around here. Then you spend half of that post whining about your David-becomes-Goliath issues -- totally off-topic and potentially antagonizing.
And then, when that doens't go well, you try to steer the conversation into a debate Chief Wahoo -- another potentially explosive subject and completely off-topic.
You want to turn this conversation into one about the Red Sox? Here's the real connection.
- Boston releases Betancourt.
- Cleveland picks him up off the scrap heap.
- Betancourt becomes dominant reliever.
- Cleveland drafts and develops Ramirez.
- Ramirez becomes a superstar.
- At the peak of his career, Manny becomes a free agent.
- Boston outbids Cleveland for Manny with the second-richest contract ever.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 12:59 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 1:10 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I just read y'all's 2007 Game 7 ALCS thread, and I wanted to say a couple of things.
1. I sincerely hope y'all win a championship in the next few years--I understand your pain. Your team deserves better than it got last year and a few bounces here or there and that series is yours (and almost certainly you would have beat the Rockies). The only way I won't be rooting for you next year is if you're in the Sox' path. Seriously, I felt bad after the euphoria was over because it was so heart-wrenching for y'all. Even more than the Cubs, you deserve the big shiny trophy, and soon.
2. I do not like the whole "Sox are the new Yankees" BS. When we sign about 10 more 35-year-old+ pitchers for too much money, you can say that. We're putting a team that is about 25% homegrown on the field. Yes, we use money to our advantage, but what do you want the Sox front office to do? Not compete with the Yankees? Our payroll deficit to the Yankees is comparable to yours vs. the Tigers this year. "Spend smarter" is the mantra of both our front offices. AND...if Boston hadn't won in '04, this "new Yankees" nonsense would not even exist; we'd just be "lovable losers". I'm just a fan of a baseball team, like you are, and the implication that my team is "evil" or "buys championships" is offensive.
3. It was our rookies and homegrowns that won us last year's championship (Youkilis, Pedroia, Papelbon) more than our FA signings (Matsuzaka, Lugo, Drew). To say we bought that championship is silly; it was based much more on player development.
Next time, maybe he'll actually talk about the Indians, their history and their fans, rather than how awesome and un-Yankee-like the Sox are and hey what's the deal with that Chief Wahoo dude?
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 1:16 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 1:20 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I don't think you're a bad guy or that you meant to annoy people, but intentional or not, your posts were profoundly annoying and would be on any Indians forum. Take a moment and back up, maybe you'll be able to see it.
Sorry you had such a bad time here.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 1:34 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 3:32 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Who is your favorite Indians player (past or present) and can you give me context, what big moments you remember or what about them you liked (maybe what years they played)?
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 3:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
We arrived to find that starting in center field was some guy named Coco Crisp, recently acquired from St. Louis. Of course he instantly became our favorite Aeros player. I know he had a big game, too. I can't remember exactly, but I think he had two doubles that day.
Later in the year, I was listening to Indians pre-game and heard Tom Hamilton announce that the Indians had just called up the young Coco Crisp to replace an injured Matt Lawton (my memory is fuzzy - I think it was Lawton). I was delighted and cheered him on, figuring his time in Cleveland would be short.
Well, since you're a BoSox fan, you know where the story ends, but basically Crisp fought against the "fourth outfielder" label to claim a spot in the starting line-up, first in CF, then in LF.
Now, I'm as statistically minded as they come, and Coco's production was never much more than average. It made perfect sense for Shapiro to trade him when he did, selling high. But I will always remember his blazing speed, pathetic arm, great name, and perseverance to force himself into the outfield when the organization pegged him as an AAAA guy.
One of my favorite memories from 2005 is the Sizemore/Crisp one-two punch at the top of the lineup. The guys looked like they were good friends, too, and truly enjoyed being team-mates.
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 3:46 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
So you've been a fan since 2003, is that right? Since Coco Crisp played center field. Now I get it. The worst Indians team you've ever seen lost 94 games - pretty bad. But then the quickly - quickly in Cleveland terms - turned it around and Bingo! Before you know it they're in contention.
Us older guys - guys who've been watching the Tribe back when 100+ losses was not only a distinct possibility but all too often a reality- may have a different view point. We watched the Indians get routinely abused by the Red Sox and the Yankees and the Orioles - can you even imagine a time when the Orioles were not just good but down right scary? - and the White Sox and the Royals etc. etc. In fact my Indians have been abused at one time or another by every other team in the American League except the Rangers. Unfathomable, non mon amie? Not only was my team abused, but I, like every other Indian fan of this era, took a lot of bull from the fans of the teams that were habitually humiliating the team I loved. After awhile I got a little defensive, prickly even. After a coupla decades of their crap I got down right intolerant of many of the opposing fans.
I know that Jay neither seeks nor would condone anyone making a case for the way he treated Devine. So I won't. I'll just tell you that I understand it completely. If you have the chance to experience a coupla decades of bad Indians baseball maybe you will too.
by mauichuck on
Jan 25, 2008 10:56 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Hopefully, I'll never have that experience. If Shapiro/Antonetti & co. stay in charge long enough it may be impossible for me to experience 47 years of hopelessness.
(This is not a criticism of you at all, but since some other posters have insinuated similar things, please don't automatically write me off because of my age. I of course cannot say I've followed the Tribe nearly as long as all of you, but that doesn't mean I don't have an immense appreciation and knowledge of the history of this franchise.)
by Voltaire on
Jan 25, 2008 5:05 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Lots of college folk here. That guy Kos is only eight years old, sharp as a tack. You're pretty sharp, too.
I'm 37, and I know for a certainty that I was a lot smarter at 19, and also a lot dumber.
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 7:11 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by drerikbrady on
Jan 25, 2008 9:43 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
There is a difference between being respectful and well-intentioned, and being wrong. They can co-exist, and simply being the former doesn't excuse you if you're the latter.
by nickjs21 on
Jan 24, 2008 5:59 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by afh4 on
Jan 25, 2008 2:25 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 25, 2008 5:00 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 10:53 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Also! Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Yanks' GIGANTIC payroll advantage really took root after they stopped winning (championships), no?
by kwoog on
Jan 24, 2008 12:05 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by jeremy on
Jan 24, 2008 12:08 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Thus, on a proportional scale, it infuriates me that the BoSox have almost a virtual lock on a playoff spot every year. I couldn't care less if they beat the Rockies or the Cards.
by kwoog on
Jan 24, 2008 12:17 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Personally, I think the real reason (besides the facts) CLE fans especially can not be talked down from acknowledging BOS as the new Yankees is Manny. BOS straight up bought our homegrown mega-hitting future HOF OF. Manny was just being Manny in CLE long before he did it in BOS. In the end, he will retire in the BOS uniform and enter the HoF as such. We haven't had many HoF players in CLE in my life time. So Manny was and still is a huge kick in the balls to me. I am sure it is that way for many other fans too.
So when you come here and argue that Sox are not the New NYY(even as politely as you did) the arguement will fall on deaf ears. To me, they have been the same thing for years.
by KevinV on
Jan 24, 2008 12:16 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
My questions:
Why in fact does MLB's "grotesque" economic imbalance continue?
What is the history of attempts, if any, to ameliorate the situation?
What plans or solutions have been seriously considered and what and who nixed them?
How is it that the small-market teams just go along with it, year after year?
The NFL and NBA instituted salary caps and other economic mechanisms years ago. Can we conclude that MLB is forever going to play the game that has lead to the reality that you've illustrated above?
I'm sure happy the Tribe is winning, especially with a stacked deck. But the truth is, I'm sure tired of the mega-market teams and their deep, deep pockets.
by ploni on
Jan 23, 2008 10:27 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Why in fact does MLB's "grotesque" economic imbalance continue?
The imbalance results primarily from the fact that over the past 25 years, the development of the media economy means that a huge portion of all MLB revenue comes from local media contracts, mostly TV, which according to the Basic Agreement goes directly to the individual teams. This is different from the NBA or NFL, as is the historical resolve and effectiveness of the union representing the players. By law, almost any change in the way teams cut up the pie has to be approved by the union and thus is subject to collective bargaining.
What is the history of attempts, if any, to ameliorate the situation?
Each successive CBA since 1995 has increased (and tweaked) revenue sharing and luxury tax provisions, which have made a significant impact on competitive balance -- but not enough to counteract the growing role of TV revenues. Thus the Yankees outspend the Indians four-to-one and yet still make upwards of $100 million profit, while the Indians barely break even. The natural economic causes of the disparity have simply grown far faster than measures to counteract them.
What plans or solutions have been seriously considered and what and who nixed them?
Reportedly, the owners have had a tougher time figuring it out amongst themselves than getting the union to go along with it. Obviously the union would resist a salary cap, possibly to the death, and doesn't love revenue sharing either, but they've been negotiated.
/How is it that the small-market teams just go along with it, year after year?
What choice do they have? The system can only be changed every 5-8 years with a new CBA, and plenty of small-market owners have made a pretty profit merely by owning a non-competitive team. In this respect, both revenue sharing and tax incentives in the first few years of new team ownership have hurt the cause.
The NFL and NBA instituted salary caps and other economic mechanisms years ago. Can we conclude that MLB is forever going to play the game that has lead to the reality that you've illustrated above?
Maybe not forever, but I don't expect it will be changed soon. I think it has to get worse before it will get better, because MLB as a whole, both owners and players, may actually benefit by having the contending teams more concentrated into major media markets -- the "contention effect" on revenue may be fairly constant, so that pure overall revenue is increased by multiplying that factor times a larger fan base. And everybody shares in the extra profit somewhat, so how much is revenue sharing really helping?
One interesting and slightly positive development is that the teams and union have agreed that MLB controls and even distributes all media income from the Internet, and as the Internet and cable networks converge, MLB may centralize a much larger slice of each team's schedule -- someday, maybe all of it. But significant movement on those fronts is still many years away.
by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 10:54 PM EST
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by ploni on
Jan 24, 2008 9:58 PM EST
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by 7foot3 on
Jan 23, 2008 10:57 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The World Series champion Boston Red Sox were a distant second at $155.4 million, according to information received by clubs from the commissioner's office. The Los Angeles Dodgers were third at $125.6 million, followed by the New York Mets ($120.9 million), Chicago Cubs ($115.9 million), Seattle ($114.4 million), Los Angeles Angels ($111 million), Philadelphia ($101.8 million), San Francisco ($101.5 million) and the Chicago White Sox ($100.2 million).
and the really scary one:
Both the Yankees and New York Mets will receive revenue boosts in 2009, when they move into new stadiums.
I can only imagine the amount the BoSox pulled in as revenue.
Also, with new ballparks, can you just see that the Yankee$ will be netting close to day a billion dollars a year?
Egads, if that doesn't scream payroll disparity, I don't what does. Guess it will truly be an All-Star at every position and rotation and the bench if that truly happens.
Also, I don't think the posting fees are included in any of the above numbers. So you can add $50M to the BoSox since they posted it this year. Or if you want to be petty, split the $50 over the six years, so add $8M+ for this season.
by talonk on
Jan 23, 2008 11:43 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
The Indians disgust me and I am so sad when I think of the children.
by royalsreview on
Jan 23, 2008 9:11 PM EST
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by Roger Dorn on
Jan 23, 2008 9:57 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by nickjs21 on
Jan 23, 2008 11:28 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fwembt on
Jan 23, 2008 11:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by talonk on
Jan 23, 2008 11:43 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by smtp on
Jan 24, 2008 12:44 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
so he knows what he's throwing away if he give into temptation
by royalsreview on
Jan 24, 2008 12:51 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 12:48 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Blood is on OUR hands. The blood of our dead National Innocence. Three weeks late the coroner told us something else, this was a double murder: she was pregnant with Sanctity of Old Journalist's Worldview.
Thank God Congress is addressing this issue. Thank God MLB spent $40 million on the Mitchell Report. Sure, our National Innocence is dead. But as I stand atop her cenotaph, I've never felt stronger in my moral convictions.
by royalsreview on
Jan 24, 2008 12:58 AM EST
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might as well...
I'm getting married in Cleveland in August. But now I fear Cleveland may not be left standing by then.
STEROIDS DESTROY CITIES!
by royalsreview on
Jan 24, 2008 1:17 AM EST
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Re: might as well...
And is she holding Baby Jesus and his Baby Dinosaur?
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 9:27 AM EST
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Re: might as well...
by Roger Dorn on
Jan 24, 2008 10:44 AM EST
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Re: might as well...
by Turkmenbashi on
Jan 24, 2008 11:02 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
and taught me a new word.
by jeremy on
Jan 24, 2008 4:44 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fwembt on
Jan 24, 2008 11:51 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 24, 2008 12:03 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 23, 2008 10:32 PM EST
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by Jay on
Jan 23, 2008 10:57 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
every team wanted him. but the red sox bought josh beckett.
yes, hanley ramirez is a stud. but the only reason that deal got done was the red sox ABILITY (not just their willingness) to take on mike lowell.
the indians could have used a gold-glove caliber 3B and a stud starting pitcher.
but no team other than the red sox was willing to give up talent AND gamble $16M on mike lowell.
the red sox can, and did. and that's the only reason they got josh beckett. that front office gets so much credit, and deservedly so.
given the choice to make the deal and not have to take on lowell, at the time, i bet the red sox do the deal without lowell. nevertheless, he turns out to be quite a useful player.
but had they not had black holes, there would have been no need to go out and sign a david ortiz AND a kevin millar AND a bill mueller AND an edgar renteria AND a jd drew AND and and and....
and really, is there any pressure? when you can buy renteria and then pay another team to take him so you can make a worse investment in julio lugo, who'll probably survive boston for one more year, you know you can't cripple the franchise with one risk.
they bought schilling from arizona by giving him a contract extension. they bought the best international free agent pitcher with a mere $100 investment.
correct me if i'm wrong, but...prior to travis hafner's contract extension, would julio lugo, the number NINE hitter for the red sox, not have been the largest total contract in indians' history had they signed him to the same deal?
the only possible exception i can think of was roberto alomar's deal...
by rick on
Jan 23, 2008 11:21 PM EST
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by royalsreview on
Jan 24, 2008 1:01 AM EST
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by Roger Dorn on
Jan 24, 2008 8:10 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 11:08 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
While you agree the payroll disparity is totally unfair, what I have a problem with is that it's not just the $150M vs the $60M disparity that really hurts.
What really hurts is the ability of the Red Sox and Yankees to be able to draft the Boras clients in the mlb draft. You know, the guys like Chamberlain, etc who are saying they want $5M signing bonuses, etc. Teams like Tampa Bay and KC cannot financially do such things.
To top it off, both Cashman and Epstein are now focusing on the minors much more than they used to. So not only can they throm mega$ around to FA, or trade for large contracts when a small market team can't keep them at arbitration, etc, but now they are throwing huge $$ into the minors as well. Not to mention the large sums to Japanese players, Latin America etc. No way the smaller market teams can compete with that.
It really is going to get ugly when both the Yankee$ and Red $ox have all the Santana, Manny type players AND all the high priced amateur talent under contract. We may as well close up shop at that point.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 11:28 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Kos on
Jan 23, 2008 10:58 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Nuh-uh, I ain't defending that. I feel bad about it.
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 11:01 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 24, 2008 12:01 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by APV on
Jan 24, 2008 8:55 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by drerikbrady on
Jan 24, 2008 10:20 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I'll be watching you guys this year; I think even more than Houston, which is usually my "second team" (I'm from Texas--grew up watching Nolan Ryan on the Rangers--but went to school on the east coast, where I re-learned to love baseball).
Don't you feel like you're right on the verge? Your situation right now reminds me of the Red Sox right after the '03 season...right on the effing cusp and ready to come back strong.
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 11:18 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Turkmenbashi on
Jan 24, 2008 11:24 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Don't you feel like you're right on the verge?Not really. Speaking only for myself, I felt like 2007 was the best chance the Indians were going to have to win a World Series for a long time -- with the exception of Hafner's down year, essentially everything went our way last season. CC and Carmona were dominant, the bullpen was phenomenal, the offense and defense were good enough, nobody got hurt, and the rest of the division had down years. Oh, and we went 5-0 against Johan Santana. And had a 3-1 lead in the ALCS. All that stuff broke our way and we still lost.
Tell me what the odds are of all those things lining up for the Indians like that any time soon? I certainly expect the Indians to be at least "pretty good" this year, but 20 years of Cleveland fandom have taught me never to get my expectations up.
by mrich on
Jan 24, 2008 11:36 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
even if this team has the best record in baseball the next two years straight, it's no better than 40/60 that they'll manage to win a Series. when you're up 3-to-1 in the ALCS with Colorado waiting in the wings, it's reasonable to get your hopes up; but when you haven't started spring training yet and your budget-priced young team looks good on paper, you're a long way from "on the verge."
by jeremy on
Jan 24, 2008 12:05 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
· Our closer designate retired before the start of the season
· Our number 4 starter got hurt and played his way unto AAA
· Our number 3 starter, after signing a huge contract got hurt
· Half of our LF platoon popped a hammy, had surgery and was done for the year
· Our two All-Stars-in-waiting - Marte and Barfield - flopped miserably
· Olberto - Oldberto - need I say more?
· Didn't some wise sage write on this very blog, "these are the times that try men's souls" when every poster was wringing his hands on this site in July when it looked like all was lost?
· And oh yeah, didn't our number one offensive force go down like Paris Hilton at a rapper's birthday party?
No, everything did not go our way last year and we were still the second best team in all of baseball. Ya gotta give Shap his props - this depth thing is a damn good idea.
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 12:15 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And yeah, the depth was great, especially in the bullpen. Jensen Lewis in particular was a revelation. But we weren't counting on Cliff Lee, David Dellucci, Andy Marte, Josh Barfield, and Roberto Hernandez to carry us! I mean, if you were going to pick a bunch of guys on the roster to get hurt or suck, those are exactly the guys you'd pick!! What happens if next year it's (god forbid) Victor or Grady that blows a hammy? Or if (again, god forbid) Fausto's shoulder starts hurting?
I just think you can't count on any of the core members of this team improving in 2008, except Hafner. Don't get me wrong, I'm not burying us, this is a really good team and we should win around 90 games IMO. But that's not exactly "on the cusp" when you play in the same division as the Tigers and the same league as the Yankees, Red Sox, and Angels.
by mrich on
Jan 24, 2008 12:50 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Lee and Sowers started the season as our #3 and #4 starters. Of course we were depending on them.
Dellucci, Marte and Barfield were in our starting lineup -- granted, the bottom of it, but still 1/3 of it, and they were expected to get some 1500 plate appearances.
Oldberto was slotted in as co-setup with Betancourt -- as was Fernando Cabrera.
These were all key players coming into the season. We weren't counting on them to be stars, but we were counting on them not to drop below replacement level, which most of them did.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 1:04 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
In addition to the players that had astoundingly great seasons (Victor, Fausto, CC), for every player that was below replacement level we were able to find a substitute at little to no cost who performed above -- and in some cases well above -- replacement level. Which was great! But you can't count on that going forward. And that's why I don't think we're "on the cusp" of a championship.
by mrich on
Jan 24, 2008 1:14 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
BTW, this thread is like our Spring Training tune up. You boyz are almost ready for Opening Day posting. Good to see you kept in shape during the off season.
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 1:30 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You take the performances of Lee + Sowers + Stanford + Laffey, it still adds up to one really awful fifth starter with an ERA around 6.00. And keep in mind, we were expected to have a very strong rotation, with Carmona and Miller in the #6 and #7 spots. Sabathia was somewhat better than expected, Carmona substantially better, but those performances were entirely counterbalanced by the disappointments.
Now I admit that unlike the rotation, the three position players -- really four including Trot -- were not expected to be a source of strength on the team, but they still managed to be profound disappointments even relative to the low expectations. Pronk was 3-5 wins below expectations. Victor was the only position player to perform above expectations, and he was expected to be quite good anyway. His overperformance did not remotely balance the five disappointments. I mean, we can just go look at PECOTA and add it up if you want.
The rotation may not be much better next year, because you're right, we did cover up the failures with depth pretty well. But every projection system will predict more offense from the Indians next year at five positions -- LF, CF, RF, 2B and DH. Sliding back at C, holding steady at 1B, 3B and SS. It won't play out exactly that way, of course, there are always surprises. But we should expect a significant improvement in the offense.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 1:30 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fwembt on
Jan 24, 2008 11:52 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 12:01 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 24, 2008 12:07 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
You seem like a nice enough guy, but your team is "the new Yankees", and if you are not convinced of it now, you never will be. While I understand your argument that you wouldn't have this classification if you never won, I whole-heartedly disagree. You were "the new Yankees" when you were the not-so-lovable losers as well. It's not about the winning. It's about the arrogance and hypocrisy. The crying from fans and management alike about the Yankees buying players you wanted (see Jose Contreras) while for many years before the Sox would do just the same to every other team in the league not named Yankees (see Pedro Martinez, Manny Ramirez, David Ortiz, Johnny Damon). Winning did not change these facts, it just brought them to greater light.
by dvd1204 on
Jan 24, 2008 12:48 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
1920, 1948 - wins
1954 (aberration), 1995, 1997, 2007 - losses
Yeah I know, am stretching it a bit.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 1:02 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 3:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
However, absolutely a great thread. Enjoyed every minute of it. I could almost hear the crack of the bat. The only sad part of this is the realization that pitchers and catcher have not yet reported. If I could, I would buy you all a round of drinks.
-mike
by 94neverout on
Jan 24, 2008 3:50 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
On a vaguely related note, I think I'm going to enjoy my first full season with a good friend who is a true fan of the Yankees. Should make for a lively year.
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 3:53 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mauichuck on
Jan 25, 2008 2:02 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
This all sounds a little self serving, like why does he need our agreement or support, we don't care about the red sox perception in the media. It sure as hell has nothing to do with the Bentencourt signing, and in fact has nothing to do with the Cleveland Indians... maybe he stumbled onto the wrong site, which if so he could easily scroll down the right side of this page and click over to the red sox page.
The nerve of these people.
by hans on
Jan 24, 2008 4:37 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 4:44 PM EST
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by Voltaire on
Jan 24, 2008 4:44 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by hans on
Jan 24, 2008 4:54 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
I daresay we do a lot more here than just back patting. I don't always agree with Jay, Brick, Eric, GFP, Adam, Edgar, either Nick etc. We all share ideas and get into a lot of debate, we don't need an outside instigator to do that.
Apparently Jay has a Machiavellian viewpoint on website control.
by fwembt on
Jan 24, 2008 11:48 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
/sarc
by afh4 on
Jan 25, 2008 2:24 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by drerikbrady on
Jan 25, 2008 6:59 AM EST
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by fwembt on
Jan 25, 2008 10:58 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 25, 2008 1:49 PM EST
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by gte619n on
Jan 25, 2008 4:44 PM EST
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by Brick. on
Jan 25, 2008 4:48 PM EST
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by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 7:54 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mauichuck on
Jan 25, 2008 9:19 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Devine on
Jan 24, 2008 5:14 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 5:36 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Favorite Indian of all time: Dennis Eckersley.
'Member him? He's the Hall of Famer we sent you in return for a fungo bat and a Pine Tar Rag to be Named Later.
You guys had the colorful Curse of the Bambino. We have the Curse of Poverty coupled with occasional bouts of dementia. How's that for historical context?
by ken from alexandria on
Jan 24, 2008 6:36 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And thank you for the reply, I'm just trying to get a bearing on what are sort of the "big names" and "big games" in Indians history, and this seemed like a fine place to start. Yeah, I know the Eck (though only historically); I can see why you'd appreciate him.
by Devine on
Jan 25, 2008 10:47 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by ken from alexandria on
Jan 25, 2008 1:50 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mrich on
Jan 25, 2008 1:55 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And you know, barring the times I get irrational crushes on dudes, I really am not a Favorite Player kind of person. Although I really hope the Real Hafner is back this year. I like that guy.
by AngG on
Jan 25, 2008 9:37 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
When you have the money to improve your team you should use it and liberal to put a winning product on the field. Miami is a very large market and have the potential to make hand over fist of money but they have a business model that some would argue works well for banking money and winning a World Series but in no way established fans.
Fans are what drives profits and consistency. The only way to establish consistency is to spend money on quality players (either homegrown or in the free agent market). Teams that have wild swings in personal, payroll and winning percentage often have a distrusting fan base and do not draw as well as they should even when they are winning. If teams run on a small profit margin and aren't willing to spend even above profits they will fail to acquire a national fan base. The Indians have the ability to spend like the Red Sox but chose not to. I am not upset with them if they don't spend like the Red Sox, I will not cry if they don't sign some player but I will cry if they don't put a quality product on the field year after year.
I grew up in Ohio and I am an Indians fan but had the Indians not been a winning team in the 90's, I very well could have become a fan of any number of other teams. I am a fan of the Indians because they are entertaining and have been winners. I love baseball and love the Indians and at this point I will always be an Indians fan but some fans acquired during our recent good run 05',07' will easily fall away and cheer for other teams if we don't consistently have winning teams in the near future. No sane fan wants to suffer through seasons when you have no chance to win if they happen to often.
You want to know why the Red Sox and Yankees have more fans and are adored by the media? Its because they act like true Americans. They don't complain about what other teams do to win, they do what ever it takes to win every game and every year. Doing anything less is Un-American. America was built on people who took risk and didn't look back and complain about what other nations were doing. If our forefathers had be risk adverse we wouldn't have become our own nation and would been enslaved to another set of rules or beliefs.
Don't whine about what other teams do or complain that baseball should have a salary cap. Complain about teams that don't try or take the revenue shared money and go home. Failure is now ok as long as you are making a profit. I don't cheer for the Indians because of Dolan or Shapiro, I cheer for them because they are entertaining. The best way for teams to be entertaining is to be winners and be consistent about it. Sure teams will have bad years and have years when the roster is old or needs an overhaul but if you don't consistently bring a winning product to the field you will lose fans and gain distrust.
Our current ownership is running the team like it is a short term investment not a long term investment. Teams like the current Red Sox and Yankees are not interested in only winning One World Series they want to win every year. That isn't possible but that is their goal and fans respect that.
by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 5:31 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
All legitimate sports hold the ideal of a level playing field. MLB simply does a very bad job of living up to that ideal.
I daresay baseball would be more popular in the U.S. if it had a level playing field, as the NFL and NBA have. Americans love the underdog and want to see a fair fight. If fans understood the game's economics the way they mis-understand PED's, they'd be furious.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 5:38 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 5:46 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Look at the TV ratings first. The NFL buries MLB time and time again. While having only 16 games versus 162 does make a big difference, the popularity of football is because the fans do know that their team is NOT at a competeive disadvantage for very long. The NFL has a salary cap and floor that requires each team to spend a certain amount on player salaries. MLB has neither.
The NFL pools its revenues so all 32 teams get a fair shake (with a few minor exceptions of course). MLB does not have this. As Jay pointed out previously, the core of the $$ that teams use is from local media contracts, not the national package with Fox/ESPN. This is how the Yankees have a 5+:1 edge over small market teams.
While I agree the ownerships in KC, Minnesota, Florida do very little with the revenue sharing $$, even if they spent that money, they could not compete with the Bostons, New Yorks, for various free agents OR RETAIN their own superstars. Don't you think KC would have loved to have kept Damon, Dye and Beltran in their outfield? They were hard pressed to keep just one, and ended up with none of them. Had all three started as Yankees and put up those numbers, New York would not have batted an eye in signing all 3 to high priced deals.
When the Bostons, New York can field All-Stars at 5 or more offensive positions and have more than one former Cy Young winner on their payroll, and the small market teams are lucky to have 2 All Stars and/or a Cy Young winner, that is some serious talent disparity. Not to mention the disparities in the draft and Japanese/Cuban/Latin America players. The small market teams have virtually no chance for the high caliber players from the USA or abroad. They have to be very, very lucky AND good.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 6:19 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Note both of them have made it in 7 of the 13 years and four fo the last five years. That is some serious advantage they have over every other AL team in that timeframe.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 6:27 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
They aren't adored, they're obsessed-over. And it isn't because those teams/fans act like true Americans, it's because they believe it's more profitable to obsess over those teams and because they lack imagination.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 5:40 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Brick. on
Jan 24, 2008 5:48 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by nickjs21 on
Jan 24, 2008 6:00 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Nat on
Jan 24, 2008 6:28 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Voltaire on
Jan 25, 2008 5:08 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fleerdon on
Jan 24, 2008 6:13 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by jhon on
Jan 24, 2008 6:29 PM EST
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by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 6:32 PM EST
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by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 6:35 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Also!! The NFL was not even close to poor financial health when they established the salary cap. In fact, they had already passed baseball as the most popular sport at that time.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 6:39 PM EST
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by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 7:03 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
And the Niners predated the cap, so your inference above is incorrect on that account.
And I see you didn't bother responding to my other comments above.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 8:21 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by fwembt on
Jan 24, 2008 11:44 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by mauichuck on
Jan 25, 2008 9:25 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Thx chuck!!!!
by talonk on
Jan 25, 2008 10:31 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
But basically, I disagree, sir.
by AngG on
Jan 25, 2008 9:43 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by Roger Dorn on
Jan 25, 2008 10:17 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by AngG on
Jan 25, 2008 10:50 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by AngG on
Jan 25, 2008 9:25 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
A lotta men didn't--a lotta men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
And if the right one don' getcha, well, the left one will
Assuming the right one is iron and the left one is steel, Betancourt is Iron and Perez is Steel.
by nickjs21 on
Jan 25, 2008 9:42 AM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Fist of Steel = Perez
From the song "16 Tons," which includes this verse:
If you see me comin', you better hide
A lot of men didn't, a lot of men died
One fist of iron, the other of steel
If the right don't getcha, the left one will
by fleerdon on
Jan 25, 2008 9:48 AM EST
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by AngG on
Jan 25, 2008 9:49 AM EST
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by Brick. on
Jan 25, 2008 10:27 AM EST
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by talonk on
Jan 25, 2008 10:31 AM EST
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by hans on
Jan 25, 2008 12:49 PM EST
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by Turkmenbashi on
Jan 25, 2008 1:25 PM EST
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by mrich on
Jan 25, 2008 1:29 PM EST
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by gte619n on
Jan 25, 2008 4:46 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
How awesome a story is it about Raffy?
And our nation's well being aside, you got to love the guy in the bullpen that throws strikes, No. Matter. What. i mean the guy never has an off day where he can't find the plate.
Plus, he sounds like a pretty good guy - the Clevelanders love to love:
"This is like a dream come true for me and my family," Betancourt said. "I'll be here for three more years. I told my agent I really wanted to stay here. I just wanted to get it done. I'm excited."
And for the Ace Reliever lovers out there:
"I like where I'm at right now," he said. "I love pitching in those situations."
by Brick. on
Jan 25, 2008 1:45 PM EST
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by Turkmenbashi on
Jan 25, 2008 3:52 PM EST
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by Voltaire on
Jan 25, 2008 5:09 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Oh, yeah, I'm all about the strike-throwing. I find it a lot easier to be forgiving of a guy if he throws strikes consistently. If you're going to get beat, make him take it from you, don't just give it away. Unless it's a really good hitter and you're behind in the count of course.
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 6:43 PM EST
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by fleerdon on
Jan 25, 2008 6:51 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+ 2003 21 CLE AL 77 242 24 55 10 1 4 21 1 3 20 65 .227 .295 .326 67 2004 22 CLE AL 8 25 2 6 1 0 0 2 0 1 3 6 .240 .321 .280 64 2005 23 CLE AL 141 504 82 147 35 4 24 78 0 2 58 128 .292 .366 .520 137 2006 24 CLE AL 149 569 84 146 28 3 13 68 0 1 56 152 .257 .323 .385 83 2007 25 CLE AL 152 574 87 155 27 1 21 72 4 4 61 146 .270 .341 .430 100 +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+ 5 Seasons 527 1914 279 509 101 9 62 241 5 11 198 497 .266 .336 .425 100 +--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+ 162 Game Avg 588 86 156 31 3 19 74 2 3 61 153 .266 .336 .425 100 Career High 152 574 87 155 35 4 24 78 4 4 61 152 .292 .366 .520 137Works pretty good, though as always Preview works wonders. HTML tables also probably will work in HTML mode. Ryan and I both usually just embed graphics of tables, though it's kind of unfortunate that that is often the best way to do this.
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 7:19 PM EST
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by fleerdon on
Jan 25, 2008 7:32 PM EST
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by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 9:08 PM EST
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by hans on
Jan 26, 2008 11:47 AM EST
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by Brick. on
Jan 25, 2008 8:57 PM EST
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Playoffs?!
http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/25/q-a-with-baseball-america-jim-callis/
by ET90210 on
Jan 25, 2008 10:44 PM EST
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Re: Playoffs?!
by nickjs21 on
Jan 26, 2008 1:43 PM EST
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Re: Betancourt locked up through 2010
by lesterjl on
Jan 28, 2008 6:06 AM EST
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