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Maybe a Dumb Idea

Adam_bomb_tiny by CU Adam on

So I'm prefacing this by saying that I'm sitting in Copyright class and just got called on.  I was pretending to look through my notes to remember what Baker v. Selden is about, but my computer screen was actually Swerb's Blurbs.  Halfway through faking my way through a semi-intelligible answer (I'm a 3L who had 8 years of Jesuit education; if there's anything I can do, it's BS like a champion), this thought popped into my head as to the Indians infield.  That's a long way to say this may be a terrible idea, so tell me if it is.

Asdrubal is clearly a better defensive SS than Jhonny, or at least that seems to be the near-universal presumption.  Jhonny may or may not be able to play third at a high enough level to justify sticking him there, though that creates the problem of what to do with Andy Marte (Marte may suck it up this spring and make that a non-issue, but I'd at least like to give him the chance to suck).  Why can't we just switch Astro Cab and Jhonny until we find out what we have at third?

I played enough baseball to reasonably think that 2d is an easier position than short; is it less important?  I don't know enough about defensive statistics to know the answer to that.  And I'm not assuming that just because Jhonny is an adequate to above-average shortstop he'll automatically be as good at 2d.  But I've never seen the discussion and the idea just popped into my head.

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Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I was going to say that I thought Jhonny had extensive 2B experience in the minors, but when I looked it up it was 3B. That certainly makes me rethink my stance on the matter.

My short answer is that I have no idea.

My slightly longer one is that I remember when Phillips/Peralta looked like the MI of the future, even casual fans were wondering why it was Phillips 2B, Peralta SS when they each seemed to be better suited for the opposite positions.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 3:51 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I'm not saying I necessarily advocate this.  I just wonder why it hasn't been mentioned or tried by the Tribe.

by CU Adam on Jan 24, 2008 4:06 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I'm going to try to probe the mind of Shapiro & co. and say that someone HAS suggested it, but they've decided there's too much risk/not enough reward.

by Voltaire on Jan 24, 2008 4:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Jhonny's decent around the bag, but my knowledge is that second basemen usually have the more difficult job when turning two. Has anybody seen Jhonny do one of those airborne 180s to dodge spikes and still get the throw off? I don't mean to sound sarcastic; I'm serious. Has anybody seen it?

by fleerdon on Jan 24, 2008 4:16 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
There are people in the FO who think that he would be a big injury risk at 2b.  We've all seen how the game can speed up on him sometimes so the thought is that he is just one narcoleptic dp pivot away from getting a knee ripped up...

by stuart dean on Jan 24, 2008 5:08 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Why not wait until next year?  I think we might be better served if we hold off on any position switches because I would like to see if:
A) Asdrubal is for real, I think he is, but he is far from a sure thing.
B) Can Josh Barfield bounce back? It's certainly plausible, although I'm not overly confident.
C) Will Andy Marte break through?

If A and B happen, but C doesn't, then we can move Jhonny to 3rd in the offseason.
If A and C happen, then you decide if you think Jhonny can handle second.
If only B and/or C happen, you leave him at short.

by ClarkM on Jan 24, 2008 5:22 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I've suggested it before.  And I think, having acquired Carroll, that it makes even more sense, with more scenarios covered.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 5:32 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Yep.  There's a new version of simple fielding runs that BP released the other day.  Carroll's 2006 season at 2nd was the 4th best season by an infielder from 2005-2007.  

by Thommy on Jan 25, 2008 12:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
The pitchers would like this, no?

Asdrubal at short and a tolerable Jhonny at 2nd with Carroll spelling him sounds like a good defense for groundballers.

by nickjs21 on Jan 24, 2008 5:35 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
there was something i always loved about how good a 2B robbie alomar was.  something cooler than omar or ozzie smith or any of the great fielding shortstops.  i have this gut irrational feeling about just leaving asdrubal at 2B, regardless of who our SS is.  i just think it's sexier somehow.

by Brick. on Jan 24, 2008 5:53 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Baker v. Selden generally holds for the proposition that you cannot copyright an idea.

I'm not going to chime in on your idea, because, in honor of that case, I intend to post a separate diary proposing that the Indians "switch Jhonny and Astro Cab" (as opposed to your suggestion that they switch "Astro Cab and Jhonny").

My only question for you is that as a second semester 3L, what the hell were you doing in class in the first place?  

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jan 24, 2008 6:01 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
All I can say in my defense is, profs who take attendance suck.

But not as much as profs who decide to take attendance for the first time in their careers after I've already set up my schedule based on easy classes.  

by CU Adam on Jan 24, 2008 9:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
God, this is funny.  I am on the faculty at a law school about 30 miles to the south of you.  If my students were busy figuring out how to solve the Indians' infield problems during my classes, I'd be thrilled.  And I don't take attendance on the philosophy that law students, unlike most law profs, are adults.

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 25, 2008 12:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
That's not hard to figure out, considering there are two law schools in the state.  We'll definitely have to go to one of the Tribe games at Coors next summer.

by CU Adam on Jan 25, 2008 1:18 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Definitely.  You'll need the break from studying for the bar.

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 25, 2008 9:12 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
You'd be surprised what your students may be up to.  

18 years ago - before the inter-nets were invented, a friend of mine and I spent the better part of our Decedents, Estates and Trusts class matching up each NFL team with their stadium.  We got all but one before class was over - at the time Jack Murphy Stadium in San Diego.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jan 25, 2008 12:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I don't know how most law profs feel about it, but I do know that the attendance policy at Toledo and many other schools is all about the U.S. News rankings. They found some positive correlation between going to class and passing the bar.

by fleerdon on Jan 25, 2008 2:48 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
passing the bar to go to class should be illegal.

by Brick. on Jan 25, 2008 3:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I wonder if we could come up with a metric on that.

I for one went to class as little as possible by my third year.  Since the school was in Newark, I had little incentive to go there anyway.  Still I had no problems passing the bar.

(Well, THAT one anyway.)

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jan 25, 2008 5:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
A newspaper in Dublin once hosted a contest. The winner was to be a person who drew a route from one end of the city to the other without passing a pub. The winning submission was a map with the most direct route possible on it; under the map, it read, "I don't pass any pubs. I stop in each one of them."

by fleerdon on Jan 25, 2008 7:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Most of the empirical data shows that there are very  few things that correlate to bar pass rate except for a student's law school GPA.  I haven't seen Toledo's data, though.  Re: passing the other kind of bar, most law profs I know don't.

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jan 25, 2008 7:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
So if you do well in law school, you have a better chance of passing the bar exam.  Who would have thunk it?
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jan 26, 2008 12:28 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I can tell you that my preferred method for passing the bar is dropping out of law school to try it again when I am older. It is working splendidly so far. I actually see my family on occasion now.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 26, 2008 7:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
jeez, how many law students/profs/lawyers do we have on here??

I hate that the bar will limit my baseball watching this July.

by DaytonDogg on Jan 26, 2008 11:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
As long as law students are posting dumb ideas on here, here's one I've been chewin' on...

Scrap the All-Star game. Decide WS home-field advantage by interleague play. Lop a few games off the regular season. Make the All-Star break a full week long. Rather than have two all-league teams, put together the best team from every conference. Have them play each other in best of 3 series: East vs. Central, East vs. West, West vs. Central. At stake is home field advantage in ALDS and ALCS, with the wild card always playing away.

Feel free to just devolve into who makes the All-AL Central Team. That's how I got into this, anyway.

by fleerdon on Jan 24, 2008 6:02 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Just to be clear, I mean to have a divisional all-star break; e.g., the AL Central team might be Martinez, Morneau, Polanco, Miggy Cabrera, etc.

by fleerdon on Jan 24, 2008 6:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Hafner, Sizemore, Ordonez, Thome, Mauer, Granderson, Sheffield, etc.

Pitchers are Santana, CC, Verlander, Willis, Carmona, Nathan, Jenks, etc.

Doesnt sound fun...toughest division in baseball...

by Tribe Alive on Jan 24, 2008 6:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
If a player can play SS they can also play 3rd, 2nd, 1st and certainly a corner outfielder.  The only problem with moving players is the transition time to do the new position equally or better then the old position.  Third base takes about 6 months to improve enough to play it equally well, second takes roughly about 2 months.  First base and corner outfield positions would take about a year.  

For Peralta he would actually become a better fielder almost instantly by moving to 3rd or 2nd base.  His lack of range certainly would be come less of a problem at 3rd and given he has played the position that would that make his transition much easier.  He would be a better second basemen but only slightly and his transition wouldn't be as smooth and it definitely would cut our double play possibility at least for a few months until the pivot became more natural.  

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 6:03 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I agree with most of this post, but I will quibble that moving from SS to 3B doesn't always make for an improvement.  For many players with range issues -- cough cough JETER! cough cough -- the problem is reaction time, not athleticism.  So a shortstop with reaction-based range issues is going to have big problems at 3B as well.  That may not be the case with Jhonny -- he may have great reactions that are the only thing making him adequate at shortstop -- but I wouldn't venture to guess with any confidence.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 6:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I just have one thing to say.

Jeter S_c_s.

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 6:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Jeter sects?

Reminds me of Jay's classic 'genuflecting to the cult of Jeter' rant from way, way back.

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 7:32 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I had a classic "genuflecting to the cult of Jeter" rant?

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 7:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
"Genuflect" in the search finds us:

The Yankees can tell themselves that A-Rod is the problem all they want, but other than Jeter, the whole team pretty much caved in this series.

I believe A-Rod's real problems started not in Texas but in New York.  He was a leader in Texas -- maybe not beloved or revered, but not disliked or disrespected either.

It was only after he went to New York and essentially prostrated himself to the Cult of Jeter -- moving to 3B and reportedly "following Jeter around like a puppy dog" -- that everyone lost respect for him.

By the time he's done, A-Rod may well have had the greatest career in the history of the game.  He should have embraced that role and played that part on any team he was on.  He should not have "needed" to play for the Yankees, and he certainly shouldn't have put himself in the position of needing Jeter's approval.

All of the Yankees, even the greatest ones, know that the institution of their team is bigger than any one of them.  But the Yankees are not bigger than A-Rod, and they expect A-Rod to genuflect all the time.  But that's not the worst part.  The worst part is, A-Rod has been genuflecting.

Yes, I think he needs to get out of there.


by nickjs21 on Jan 24, 2008 7:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Oh, there it is.  That one dates back to 10/7/06.

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 7:52 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Who else has the command of language to bust out the word 'genuflect?

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 7:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
(don't mean to sound like I'm genuflecting)

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 9:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Lots of people here, plus Tom Lehrer.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 11:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
And can we actually picture Jhonny going flat out for a ball at 3rd base?

by supermarioelia on Jan 24, 2008 8:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
do you have any sources that back up those time frames? 6 months and 2 months?

by hans on Jan 24, 2008 9:58 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I'm guessing... no.

by CU Adam on Jan 24, 2008 9:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
This is actually an innocent question, I would love to hear some supporting evidence about the time frame to move from position on avg. My guess this doesn't exist, yet for some reason E5 thinks he can bandy about some made up numbers and anyone actually buys his garbage.

E5 I hope you prove what I just posted wrong, because I would really be interested in the source material, but I'm guessing you probably don't post back.

by hans on Jan 24, 2008 10:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
We have a winner.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 24, 2008 10:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Wow - no facts, no explanation as to how the conclusions were formulated, just mindless speculation presented as irrefutable fact.  E - you're on top of your game already!
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 9:18 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I think you're forgetting an awful lot from that era.

As in how Hart never packaged guys like Brian Giles, Richie Sexson, Damien Jackson, Dann Graves, Jeromey Burnitz, Brian Anderson, Alex Ramriez, Enrique Wilson, Shuey, etc. to put us over the top.

Instead, he frittered them away or they flamed out, one by one.

Giles for Ricardo Rincon

Sexson, etc. for Bere, Woodard and Wickman

Burnitz for Seitzer

Wilson and Alex Ramirez for Will Cordero

Damien Jackson/Danny Graves/Winchester for Smiley and Branson

Brian Anderson left unprotected in 1997 expansion draft.

Shuey (The Filthy One) could never quite stay healthy.

---

Look, I'm not second guessing...giving up a gaggle of talent for that one player is a risky proposition.  And there was no way of knowing who was going to pan out and who wasn't.  Plus, not all of these players were so highly touted.

But I will say that from 1996-2000 I remember these guys being mentioned in July and in December and the trigger was never pulled.

waiting for marte.

by jonnykilbane on Jan 24, 2008 7:59 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
The common thread between those guys never getting traded, and our massive OF glut and other prospects never getting traded, is that none of them are/were desirable enough to be packaged for anything.

Thanks for reminding me about Al-Ram and Enrique for Wil Cordero ... I should bring that up whenever someone says we should trade more of our prospect depth.  Wil Cordero, past his mediocre prime, that's what's pretty much what's available for a couple of B- prospects.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 11:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I think your general point is well-taken.  However, I also think it is benefited greatly by hindsight in that many of these prospects...like more prospects...didn't really pan out.

However, Sexson had a pretty nifty run for 5 or 6 years when he gave MIL and SEA something in the neighborhood of .270 / 40 / 120 / .900.

And in Giles' first 4 or 5 years he was somewhere around .310 / 40 / 110 / .1000

So, not all of these guys were stiffs.  

I guess what I'm saying, looking back on 96-99 is that when you had as much money as the Tribe did, had the farm system the Tribe did, and were close as the Tribe was, sometimes you have to pull the trigger before you know that you prospects (like those above) are stiffs.

Put another way, look what the Yankees gave up for Clemens the first time around:

Graham Lloyd, an above-average reliever.
David Wells, a clearly on the downside starter.
And Homer Bush, who ended up being worth little more than a bag of balls.

So, I guess I'm saying that Hart never seemed to be willing to part with the Homer Bushes, until they became much less valuable.

And, believe me, I understand that the Tribe of today couldn't operate this way...but the Tribe of yesteryear had every reason to make a big gamble or two.  And they never did.

waiting for marte.

by jonnykilbane on Jan 25, 2008 12:28 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
I'm just trying to understand where this second-guessing is going.  Hart traded for Ben McDonald and John Smiley.  Also reportedly offered Giles and Bartolo Colon for Pedro...but Montreal wanted Jaret Wright.  He pulled the trigger on Jeff Kent, et al for Matt Williams. He signed Jack McDowell, Robby Alomar and Chuck Finley and Eddie Murray. All grade "A" signings. The problem was that he WAS trying to get us over the hump.  Now we understand better that trading away valuable long-term assets for short term desires isn't the most effective or efficient way to use resources, in the short or long term.  They rarely work out. That Hart somehow couldn't trade our stiffs for other teams stars?  More letters to the editor to the Houston papers praising the hiring of Ed Wade might help us to pursue this strategy.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 25, 2008 6:12 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Now we understand better that trading away valuable long-term assets for short term desires isn't the most effective or efficient way to use resources

I dunno - the Marlins have had some success with that approach.  In fact they've won damn near as many World Series in their 14 years of existence as the Tribe has in over a 100 years.  All depends on who's runnin' the show and a little luck.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 9:31 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
If an organization has the stomach for it (especially in the 90s when more top-flight free agents hit the market...help me here), going full tilt for 2-3 years, then totally retrenching for 5 or 6, may be the optimum way to actually to obtain a title.  Not sure a fan base can tolerate the 5 or 6 years of guaranteed mediocrity.  Moreover, teams today keep their long term (cheap) assets, so it may be harder to pull off.

And a lot of luck too.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 26, 2008 1:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Sexson and Giles weren't depth prospects, they were young, established major leaguers.  There is a universe of difference between those two states when it comes to trade value.  Giles was not a starter, but he was getting 400+ PA each season.  Sexson was coming off a 119 RBI season (albeit only 101 OPS+).

As for the Clemens deal, Homer Bush was basically a throw-in.  You want to dismiss David Wells as "clearly on the downside," but just a few weeks earlier, he was 3rd in the Cy Young voting.  That trade was basically upgrading one veteran pitcher to another, so they threw in a good reliever and a decent prospect.  I don't think it represents any kind of example of how to use depth prospects to get meaningful and immediate upgrades.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 8:11 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Wells also pitched a perfect game in 1998, against the Twins.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Jan 25, 2008 9:25 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Maybe a Dumb Idea
Back in the days when BP and JP were in Buffalo together when it was clear Omar would soon need a successor, pretty much anyone looking at the two of them physically/athletically would have to say, when asked "who should play 2b and who SS?" would point to BP for SS and JP for 2B. But it never happened, even tho there was plenty of opportunity, as they were splitting time at dirrerent positions.

I never understood it, and just had to conclude that the decision had been made, for whatever reason, that Jhonny just can't play 2B, and that was that. No use even trying. I don't think he'll ever even practice the position in Cleveland, ever.

by mcrose on Jan 24, 2008 8:18 PM EST   0 recs

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