I miss the John Hart Days
Times are different now, but in the Hart days, you could always count on at least 1 big signing or trade every off season. One guy who would come to town and make you think, however unrealistically, there was now enough to take it all.
Matt Williams, Travis Fryman, Roberto Alomar, Chuck Finley, Davis Justice...
It might not be prudent to make a big deal right now. But it sure would be fun.
0 recs |
46
comments
Comments
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2008 8:48 AM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Chuck Finley?
L
O
L
by Turkmenbashi on
Jan 24, 2008 8:49 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Roger Dorn on
Jan 24, 2008 8:59 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Or that amazing back-handed spinning snare he made of a bouncer?
That's all I think about when someone says Chuck Finley. That and him falling down in Anaheim.
by nickjs21 on
Jan 24, 2008 5:42 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by TheVanillaGorilla on
Jan 24, 2008 7:12 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
So without that fabulous Finley signing we wouldn't have our future HoF thirdbaseman!
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 9:13 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Turkmenbashi on
Jan 24, 2008 9:30 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Finley was, like Hershiser and El Presidente, strictly a veteran second- or third-tier guy, and we absolutely outbid other teams to get him.
Here's what Shapiro/Dolan does better than Hart/Jacobs:
- Develop pitchers. The two regimes share credit for C.C. H/J developed Colon and Nagy. S/D developed Jake, Fausto, Laffey and Lee, which already puts them ahead, and a boatload of guys in the bullpen and in Buffalo.
- Retain our best players. Jacobs wouldn't let Hart extend Manny before turning over the reins in 2000, at which point it was basically too late. S/D were outbid for Thome as the team entered rebuilding, but H/J lost out on Belle at the very height of the team's wealth and talent.
by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 10:15 AM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Shapiro's a damn fine GM but the oft-maligned Hank Peters had a lot to do with turning a moribund franchise around. So yeah, the Shapiro Indians pitch better, but the long forgotten Hank Peters had a lot to do with the Tribe's success in the 90's.
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 11:02 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
I believe the sequential development of Belle, Thome, Ramirez and Giles is basically unique in the history of the game. I haven't found anyone who could point to a more impressive group of hitters all drafted within four years by a single organization.
by Jay on
Jan 24, 2008 12:45 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
As our 90s team showed, they could slug everybody to get to the postseason, but good pitching typically will suppress good hitting, especially in the playoffs.
Last year, had we gotten one decent performance out of CC and/or fausto against the Red Sox, we would have been in the World Series.
I'll take my chances with the pitching, thank you.
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 12:58 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by mauichuck on
Jan 24, 2008 1:05 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 1:12 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Harry Doyle on
Jan 24, 2008 1:08 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Player G ERA W L CG SHO IP BB SO ERA+
Sam McDowell 38 1.81 15 14 11 3 269 110 283 165
Luis Tiant 34 1.6 21 9 19 9 258.3 73 264 186
Sonny Siebert 31 2.97 12 10 8 4 206 88 146 100
Steve Hargan 32 4.15 8 15 4 2 158.3 81 78 72
Stan Williams 44 2.5 13 11 6 2 194.3 51 147 119
Have you ever seen a staff like this before - ever? And these boyz finished third in the American League - you know before there was all of this play-off stuff. I mean a team ERA of 2.66!
But they just couldn't score any runs - none, nada, oogatz - so they finished 86 and 75 (four games over their Pythagorian projection) 16 and half games behind Detroit.
I know that it's only one season - that SSS you guys are always talking about - but jeez how the hell do you explain the best pitching team I've ever seen finishing 16 and a half games outta first?
by mauichuck on
Jan 25, 2008 7:13 AM EST
up
0 recs
A few thoughts!
Two main points:
- Of course, you need BOTH offense and pitching - without a good combination of both, you're not likely going to win anything, not even with GREAT pitching like the 1968 team had. If they had a decent to solid offense, it's likely they would have won over 90 games.
- However, even if they had won 90+ games, it wouldn't have been enough that year because Detroit had a GREAT year - 102-103 wins, which can overcome even a great pitching team, as 102-103 wins is still considered a great season even in today's day and age with diluted pitching, DH AL offenses, and expansion teams galore compared to the 1960s. If Detroit hadn't had a GREAT season, the 1968 Indians would have been much closer to first place as is, let alone if they had gotten better offensive results.
Just my 2 cents. :-)
by indiansfan on
Jan 25, 2008 8:46 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
The league ERA was 2.98 for the AL. Detroit's pitching wasn't much worse than Cleveland's with a 2.71 ERA. Denny McClain (of Detroit) won the Cy Young by going 31-6 with a 1.96 ERA and 280 Ks.
When two teams (most teams, that year) have fantastic pitching it will most likely be offense where the difference is made. Detroit scored almost a run a game more than Cleveland. Their OPS+ was 114 to Cleveland's 96.
The interesting thing is when you adjust all this (ERA+), our 2007 pitching wasn't much different. A 114 ERA+ last year to a 112 in 68.
by nickjs21 on
Jan 25, 2008 9:36 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Off the top of my head, I can't think of any beyond Shuey, Tavarez, Embree, Wright. And the Hart regime failed to preserve and get much use out of these guys.
And, unless I'm forgetting anyone, the rest are a bunch of Joe Roa's, Albie Lopez and Chad Ogea's.
by jhon on
Jan 24, 2008 1:22 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by fwembt on
Jan 24, 2008 3:14 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
In hindight, I so wish we'd acquired a Kevin Brown or a Pedro, and that Jaret wouldn't break. It always seemed like we were just one starter short.
by jhon on
Jan 24, 2008 6:25 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by talonk on
Jan 24, 2008 6:28 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by drerikbrady on
Jan 25, 2008 1:45 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by LAIndianfan on
Jan 25, 2008 2:56 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by madherb on
Jan 25, 2008 9:12 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 9:12 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by drerikbrady on
Jan 25, 2008 9:55 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Jay on
Jan 25, 2008 9:58 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by drerikbrady on
Jan 25, 2008 10:02 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by emd2k3 on
Jan 26, 2008 10:37 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Jay on
Jan 27, 2008 9:15 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by drerikbrady on
Jan 27, 2008 1:02 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Jay on
Jan 28, 2008 9:21 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Brick. on
Jan 27, 2008 9:50 AM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by drerikbrady on
Jan 27, 2008 1:03 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Chan Ho Park (5 years, $65 million)
Jay Powell (3 years, $9 million)
Todd Van Poppel (3 years, $7 million)
Juan Gonzalez (2 years, $24 million)
Carl Everett (via trade, 2 years, $17.8 million)
Ismael Valdez (1 years, $2.5 million)
John Rocker (via trade, 1 year, $2.5 million)
Dave Burba (1 year, $2 million, released that July)
Herbert Perry (via trade, 1 year, $900,000)
Hideki Irabu (1 year, $550,000)
Dan Miceli (1 year, $1 million, released that May)
Rudy Seanez (1 year, $1 million)
Rich Rodriguez (via trade, 1 year $600,000)
Steve Woodward (1 year, $550,000)
Oh, and trading some palooka named Hafner to Cleveland for Einar Diaz and Ryan Drese.
by emd2k3 on Jan 24, 2008 11:12 AM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
It may not make the big splash that a blockbuster trade or free agent signing does, but it makes for keeping the Indians as a top tier competitor in the future.
by Harry Doyle on Jan 24, 2008 12:44 PM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 12:58 PM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 6:32 PM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
Even though by that time Shapiro had no chance to influence the Indians winning or losing that night?
by jds16 on
Jan 24, 2008 7:11 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 7:13 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
And regarding longevity, hasn't Shapiro pretty much matched Peters already?
by jds16 on
Jan 24, 2008 7:56 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Brick. on
Jan 24, 2008 7:15 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by E5 on
Jan 24, 2008 7:16 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by Brick. on
Jan 24, 2008 7:18 PM EST
up
0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
And I think it was more fun being a player with the big boys than a little boy trying to out think them.
To be sure though, Hank Peters deserves a ton of credit for the mid-90's success.
by DixonCayne on Jan 24, 2008 7:18 PM EST 0 recs
Re: I miss the John Hart Days
by jhon on
Jan 24, 2008 7:25 PM EST
up
0 recs







