I miss the John Hart Days

by DixonCayne on Jan 24, 2008 6:51 AM EST

Times are different now, but in the Hart days, you could always count on at least 1 big signing or trade every off season. One guy who would come to town and make you think, however unrealistically, there was now enough to take it all.

Matt Williams, Travis Fryman, Roberto Alomar, Chuck Finley, Davis Justice...

It might not be prudent to make a big deal right now. But it sure would be fun.

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Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I don't. There's just something inherently more exciting and satisfying about watching these well-built Indians outplay their richer and more obnoxious competitors. Shapiro is like a brilliant general who manages to route superior forces with his superior tactics.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2008 8:48 AM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Also!

Chuck Finley?

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2008 8:49 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Finley's first year with us was pretty good and he was our number 2 starter.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 24, 2008 8:59 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Does anyone remember that time he struck out 4 batters in an inning?

Or that amazing back-handed spinning snare he made of a bouncer?

That's all I think about when someone says Chuck Finley. That and him falling down in Anaheim.

by nickjs21 on Jan 24, 2008 5:42 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

all i think about is rolling around on top of jag scantily clad, with a man with very large hair standing over me singing. and then maybe a high heel to the face

by TheVanillaGorilla on Jan 24, 2008 7:12 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Hey Turk you need to track the provenance of the Marte acquisition - Finley for Crisp for Marte.

So without that fabulous Finley signing we wouldn't have our future HoF thirdbaseman!

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 9:13 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Touche, Chuck!

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 24, 2008 9:30 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

The Alomar signing was a real anomaly, the only top-tier free agent we've ever signed -- coming off a down year, a couple years off the spitting incident, plus we had his brother and the Yankees didn't need him.

Finley was, like Hershiser and El Presidente, strictly a veteran second- or third-tier guy, and we absolutely outbid other teams to get him.

Here's what Shapiro/Dolan does better than Hart/Jacobs:

Develop pitchers. The two regimes share credit for C.C. H/J developed Colon and Nagy. S/D developed Jake, Fausto, Laffey and Lee, which already puts them ahead, and a boatload of guys in the bullpen and in Buffalo.
Retain our best players. Jacobs wouldn't let Hart extend Manny before turning over the reins in 2000, at which point it was basically too late. S/D were outbid for Thome as the team entered rebuilding, but H/J lost out on Belle at the very height of the team's wealth and talent.

If we'd kept Belle, we wouldn't have felt the need to trade for Williams and Justice, and we might have held onto Giles long enough for him to blossom. But I agree that the annual Hart shenanigans were more fun to follow.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 10:15 AM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

And what about Hank Peters ('87 to '91)? Here's something he did better than Shapiro: draft and develope offensive players (pun noted) and future HoFer's like, Thome, Manny and shoulda been HoFer's like Belle. Thome in the 13th round of the '89 draft, Manny was the 13th pick of the first round in '91, and Belle in the second round of the '87 draft. And don't forget the '89 trade of Joe Carter for Sandy Alomar and Carlos Baerga.

Shapiro's a damn fine GM but the oft-maligned Hank Peters had a lot to do with turning a moribund franchise around. So yeah, the Shapiro Indians pitch better, but the long forgotten Hank Peters had a lot to do with the Tribe's success in the 90's.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 11:02 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

You're right, most folks don't realize that those guys were acquired on Peters' watch, but Hart was Director of Baseball Ops starting in 1990, and when it comes to a 13th rounder, you really have to credit the scouting director almost entirely.

I believe the sequential development of Belle, Thome, Ramirez and Giles is basically unique in the history of the game. I haven't found anyone who could point to a more impressive group of hitters all drafted within four years by a single organization.

by Jay on Jan 24, 2008 12:45 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

As much as I loved those 90s Tribe teams, I think Shapiro has a better handle on it because of one thing, pitching.

As our 90s team showed, they could slug everybody to get to the postseason, but good pitching typically will suppress good hitting, especially in the playoffs.

Last year, had we gotten one decent performance out of CC and/or fausto against the Red Sox, we would have been in the World Series.

I'll take my chances with the pitching, thank you.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 12:58 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I'm still waiting for Shap's Indians to get to the WS. They win one and I'm a believer - otherwise Shap's in second place.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 24, 2008 1:05 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Don't you mean fourth? Behind Greenberg/Boudreau (1948) and Tris Speaker (1920).

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 1:12 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jan 24, 2008 1:08 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Ya know this "good pitching wins pennants" thing maybe one of those urban/baseball legends. I know I've done this before, but look at the '68 Indians pitching:
Player    G    ERA    W    L    CG    SHO    IP    BB    SO    ERA+
Sam McDowell    38    1.81    15    14    11    3    269    110    283    165
Luis Tiant    34    1.6    21    9    19    9    258.3    73    264    186
Sonny Siebert    31    2.97    12    10    8    4    206    88    146    100
Steve Hargan    32    4.15    8    15    4    2    158.3    81    78    72
Stan Williams    44    2.5    13    11    6    2    194.3    51    147    119
Have you ever seen a staff like this before - ever? And these boyz finished third in the American League - you know before there was all of this play-off stuff. I mean a team ERA of 2.66!

But they just couldn't score any runs - none, nada, oogatz - so they finished 86 and 75 (four games over their Pythagorian projection) 16 and half games behind Detroit.

I know that it's only one season - that SSS you guys are always talking about - but jeez how the hell do you explain the best pitching team I've ever seen finishing 16 and a half games outta first?

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Jan 25, 2008 7:13 AM EST up 0 recs

A few thoughts!

Hello mauichuck,

Two main points:

Of course, you need BOTH offense and pitching - without a good combination of both, you're not likely going to win anything, not even with GREAT pitching like the 1968 team had. If they had a decent to solid offense, it's likely they would have won over 90 games.
However, even if they had won 90+ games, it wouldn't have been enough that year because Detroit had a GREAT year - 102-103 wins, which can overcome even a great pitching team, as 102-103 wins is still considered a great season even in today's day and age with diluted pitching, DH AL offenses, and expansion teams galore compared to the 1960s. If Detroit hadn't had a GREAT season, the 1968 Indians would have been much closer to first place as is, let alone if they had gotten better offensive results.

Therefore, that's the two main reasons in my opinion why the 1968 Indians didn't fare better in the standings, despite having arguably one of the better starting staffs of all time.

Just my 2 cents. :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Jan 25, 2008 8:46 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

It is quite amazing, but remember this is 1968. I don't know if there's another year in baseball more synonymous with pitching.

The league ERA was 2.98 for the AL. Detroit's pitching wasn't much worse than Cleveland's with a 2.71 ERA. Denny McClain (of Detroit) won the Cy Young by going 31-6 with a 1.96 ERA and 280 Ks.

When two teams (most teams, that year) have fantastic pitching it will most likely be offense where the difference is made. Detroit scored almost a run a game more than Cleveland. Their OPS+ was 114 to Cleveland's 96.

The interesting thing is when you adjust all this (ERA+), our 2007 pitching wasn't much different. A 114 ERA+ last year to a 112 in 68.

by nickjs21 on Jan 25, 2008 9:36 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

You're right about the pitchers.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any beyond Shuey, Tavarez, Embree, Wright. And the Hart regime failed to preserve and get much use out of these guys.

And, unless I'm forgetting anyone, the rest are a bunch of Joe Roa's, Albie Lopez and Chad Ogea's.

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 1:22 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I always liked Chad Ogea. He did manage one really good World Series for us.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 24, 2008 3:14 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I liked Chad Ogea too. And Brian Anderson (pretty saavy pickup by Hart--only traded Pep Harris and another dude whose name I can't remember for him).

In hindight, I so wish we'd acquired a Kevin Brown or a Pedro, and that Jaret wouldn't break. It always seemed like we were just one starter short.

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 6:25 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Had we dealt Jaret for Pedro, we just might have. I still dislike that headhunter though.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 6:28 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Jay is also a Chad Ogea fan.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 25, 2008 1:45 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Wasn't there a future big 4 or 5 at one time? Ogea, maybe Paul Byrd,someone who became a good reliever with the Reds and maybe Lopez.

by LAIndianfan on Jan 25, 2008 2:56 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Not sure if this is the time period you're referring to, but there was a heckuva lotta hope surrounding Albie Lopez and Julian Tavarez in 1993 and 94.

by madherb on Jan 25, 2008 9:12 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

How can any Tribe fan not like Chad Ogea, who beat a Cy Young winner twice in the same World Series, and who went 2-4 at the plate with a double and two RBI?

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 9:12 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I never said I didn't like Chad Ogea. I just wanted to point out that you, in fact, have uncommonly strong feelings for him.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 25, 2008 9:55 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Uncommonly? I don't think so. Outside that one week, his accomplishments were pretty slim. He was sort of like Westbrook, except for the successful career part.

by Jay on Jan 25, 2008 9:58 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Exactly. His accomplishments were pretty slim. And yet you still mention him as a player for which you have a "soft spot." I find that a tad un-common.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 25, 2008 10:02 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I have a Chad Ogea/Ted Power/Derek Liliquist autographed baseball I can sell you, Jay.

by emd2k3 on Jan 26, 2008 10:37 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Don't listen to Erik, he's just displaying some creepy stalker tendency here. I probably said one thing about Chad Ogea 18 months ago, among 60,000 comments, and he just keeps bringing it up.

by Jay on Jan 27, 2008 9:15 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Dude, you're the only who brought it up, re-read the Introductions thread. Maybe later, I'll see how many times "Jay" and "Ogea" show up together...

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 27, 2008 1:02 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Right, and that was a year and a half ago. It's just that you like to re-read that whole thread every day. Do I need to get a restraining order?

by Jay on Jan 28, 2008 9:21 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Derek Liliquist. Holy Crap.

by Brick. on Jan 27, 2008 9:50 AM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

No doubt, Derek Lilliquist, that's a true blast from the (obscure) past.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 27, 2008 1:03 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I really miss him as GM of the Rangers.

Chan Ho Park (5 years, $65 million)
Jay Powell (3 years, $9 million)
Todd Van Poppel (3 years, $7 million)
Juan Gonzalez (2 years, $24 million)
Carl Everett (via trade, 2 years, $17.8 million)
Ismael Valdez (1 years, $2.5 million)
John Rocker (via trade, 1 year, $2.5 million)
Dave Burba (1 year, $2 million, released that July)
Herbert Perry (via trade, 1 year, $900,000)
Hideki Irabu (1 year, $550,000)
Dan Miceli (1 year, $1 million, released that May)
Rudy Seanez (1 year, $1 million)
Rich Rodriguez (via trade, 1 year $600,000)
Steve Woodward (1 year, $550,000)

Oh, and trading some palooka named Hafner to Cleveland for Einar Diaz and Ryan Drese.

by emd2k3 on Jan 24, 2008 11:12 AM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

... I still holding out hope for that BIG signing this off season of a man named Carsten Charles something or other.

It may not make the big splash that a blockbuster trade or free agent signing does, but it makes for keeping the Indians as a top tier competitor in the future.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Jan 24, 2008 12:44 PM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Yeah, I really miss those Giles for Rincon trades too.

by talonk on Jan 24, 2008 12:58 PM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Shapiro is a good GM but his biggest weakness is drafting and roster management. If he stays around long enough and wins a World Series he certainly will be the best ever. Until then in my mind it is Hank Peters followed by John Hart.

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 6:32 PM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

So you're saying that if the Indians had won game 7 of the ALCS and then steamrolled the Rockies, Shapiro would be #1, but since they didn't he's not?

Even though by that time Shapiro had no chance to influence the Indians winning or losing that night?

by jds16 on Jan 24, 2008 7:11 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Did you miss my comment about longevity? Secondly, the Indians failure to win the World Series is his problem and I hope he would say so himself.

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 7:13 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I'm quite sure that Shapiro has said so. My point was that by the time game 7 came, he had already spent the influence he had on the outcome by setting the roster. In a postseason series, the GM can only set the roster; not pitch, hit, field, manage or coach.

And regarding longevity, hasn't Shapiro pretty much matched Peters already?

by jds16 on Jan 24, 2008 7:56 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

his roster managment, i would argue is not even remotely a weakness. you know, you would be a lot happier and understand the game a lot more if you just ignored the brandon phillips and jeremy guthrie incedents (since you don't understand them anyway) and started looking at things from there. and my understanding is he isn't very hands on in the draft to begin with, nor are many GM's.

by Brick. on Jan 24, 2008 7:15 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

What about Marte?

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages 1.It is ridiculed 2.It is violently opposed 3.Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT kinesiologist! Straw,Drink

by E5 on Jan 24, 2008 7:16 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

what about him? he hasn't been mismanaged outside of a vacuum.

by Brick. on Jan 24, 2008 7:18 PM EST up 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

I didn't really mean to start a who's-better-Hart-or -Shapiro thing. Just reminiscing about the money days when you could look for an off-season deal to get get excited about. Yes, Finley provided some juice before the season, regardless what he did later on.

And I think it was more fun being a player with the big boys than a little boy trying to out think them.

To be sure though, Hank Peters deserves a ton of credit for the mid-90's success.

by DixonCayne on Jan 24, 2008 7:18 PM EST 0 recs

Re: I miss the John Hart Days

Tom Hamilton frequently raves about Peter's legacy, always making note of the disproportionate share of league execs who were tutored in some way by Hank.

by jhon on Jan 24, 2008 7:25 PM EST up 0 recs