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Catching Up

Chironomus_plumosus01_tiny by Ryan on in News

First of all, I apologize for the long absence. Real life and other projects came together all at once.

So what have the Indians done this offseason? They've acquired two players, both complimentary pieces. Jamey Carroll probably isn't going to hit, but is a good defensive player, and allows the Indians to play Asdrubal Cabrera at shortstop. Masahide Kobayashi should a new member of Eric Wedge's exclusive Circle of Trust.

But none of the bigger issues have been resolved. The future of the infield is still muddled. Jhonny Peralta likely isn't going to stay at shortstop for much longer, Casey Blake isn't a long-team answer at third, and Asdrdubal Cabrera should be play at short, not second.

Beyond the starters are two young players who had awful years: Andy Marte and Josh Barfield. The Indians can be patient with Barfield, as they have an option on him, but Marte has to be on the roster. The Indians are in a very difficult spot: they really need to play him regularly to really see what they have in him, but are going to be competing for the division title. Marte's probably not going to beat out Casey Blake to be the starting third baseman, so he's going to have to win the job by having a great Spring Training and continuing that production while playing a couple times a week. Yeah, that's not likely to happen.

So if Marte doesn't work out, and Casey Blake leaves after the end of the season (both in themselves reasonable moves by the Indians), then what? If Jhonny Peralta, who played the position early in his career, can play third base, then that's the most logical move. It allows Asdrubal Cabrera to move to his natural position, and greatly betters the infield defense. This is assuming Josh Barfield figures out how to hit again, admittedly as likely as Andy Marte doing the same this season.

If Marte does work out, then you start to think about dealing Peralta, who is still a valuable player. He's signed through 2010 with a 2011 team option, so he'd still under control for three years if the Indians waited to dangle him after this season.

I guess you can detect a running theme through all this rambling: Asdrubal Cabrera needs to be playing shortstop, and here's how the Indians can make it happen. Infield defense continues to be one of the biggest weaknesses on this team, and now the Indians have the players to fix it. Now they just need the right configuration.

So what's your long-term infield configuration?

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Re: Catching Up
Do we have the personnel to fix it? Both Marte and Barfield seem error-prone. I think the time to deal Peralta is sooner rather than later, preferably at least in part for a second baseman who can field, and then take the (admittedly substantial risk) of throwing Marte into the bigs at third next year. I know he's struggled at the plate, but you have to expect that he's bound to turn a corner at some point, since his minor league numbers have remained impressive. Of course, in this scenario, Cabrera is our third baseman.

I feel a bit brazen writing all this, since it puts a lot of pressure on a tremendously young and inexperienced infield, but I also feel like Cabrera's defensive chops were pretty convincingly demonstrated last year, and I also am someone who thinks that Guttierez will have a big offensive  season, to the extent that the lineup will have plenty of pop in the middle even if Marte struggles for a while.

As to what a Peralta deal would look like or which second basemen I'd like to acquire, I'm less sure. Freddy Sanchez?

By the way, this is my first post. I've been enjoying this blog for a long time.

by bentausig on Jan 3, 2008 10:38 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
good job on your first post.

I do have a bone to pick about the suggestion that Marte's numbers "have remained impressive". He hasn't posted an impressive line (AAA or ML) since 2005

I find it hard to not be concerned about Marte potentially not "turning the corner" even given the proper ML at-bats whilst in the mist of a playoff run. Any year where we weren't legitimate contenders and I'd give him job and not think twice, but following the Tiger's moves (and moves of the teams in the central in general, which will make it harder for us to repeat the same win total next year) I don't think we can take that risk.

by hans on Jan 4, 2008 1:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Agreed, but I'm not clear on the immediate alternative. The free agent and trading boats for infielders have mostly sailed for this offseason. And yet retaining Blake at third, while you know what you get, sacrifices any upside.

by bentausig on Jan 4, 2008 1:31 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
According to Casey Blake's goofy good year/bad year trend, he's due for another .830 OPS (along with an impressive .060 point jump in BA/RISP to somewhere around .255!), So maybe he is the answer!

by hans on Jan 4, 2008 1:51 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I initially backed the idea of given Marte the 3B job and sliding Blake into super-utility. But, as I thought about it more, and considered what Garko had to do to earn his job, I've backed away from that. If Marte can't hit well enough in the spots he is given then he doesn't deserve to have the everyday job.

The only reason I can understand someone arguing that Marte should get those at bats is that in the end Blake really isn't that much of an upgrade over Marte (when taking into account BA/RISP or simply Runs Created as a supporting stat). Which, if this is the case, than we really should have looked at upgrading somewhere on this offense (LF,2B,3B) this offseason, rather than rely on Marte to out hit Blake.

by hans on Jan 4, 2008 1:08 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I get really, really nervous when people pencil in Asdrubal as the SS of the future. I hope he works out, I really do. But do we want to give him this title (or 2B) after 159 ML at-bats? (Over Barfield, well...sure). But seriously, I look at his minor-league numbers, and I consider his age, and I'm optimistic, but I remind myself that it's still extremely risky to be making ANY long-term plans with Asrdubal. Yet. Give it time.

by Voltaire on Jan 4, 2008 1:54 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Agreed, that was my first thought on this as well.

by Thommy on Jan 4, 2008 9:43 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I have no doubt - none - that Asdrubal is ready defensively right now.  And not just ready, but capable of being the best defensive SS in the league.  

by mkwng on Jan 4, 2008 10:49 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Tulowitzki is unbelievable defensively.  I think Asdrubal's ceiling might be best defensive SS in the AL if Tulo keeps up what he did this season.

That said, I don't think anyone questions Asdrubal's defensive readiness; it's the offense.  He's young and he's had success so far, so I think he's ultimately the best answer we're going to have, but I haven't pencilled him for the next 7 years at short quite yet.

by CU Adam on Jan 4, 2008 1:19 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Tulowitzki's why I said league, not majors.

by mkwng on Jan 4, 2008 3:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Exactly. I remember hearing when we acquired Asdrubal that he was ML glove, AA bat. I have no doubt that he is (yes, I'm going to say it) the second coming of Omar. But as far as his bat is concerned? I'm extremely nervous about what he'll hit over a full season. I know he's young, I know he'll get better. But I just don't think it's his time yet.

by Voltaire on Jan 4, 2008 9:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I can understand feeling cautious, but extremely nervous? He faced some very good pitching last year down the stretch and in the playoffs, and while occasionally he swung at blatant double-play pitches and probably struck out a little too often (though relative to the rest of the lineup, he was even in good shape here), overall he held his own with a major league-ready BA, OBP, and OPS in a more or less representative number of (high-pressure) at-bats.

Anecdotally, he also plugged an obvious gap in the lineup. We looked awfully lackluster, especially right after Sizemore, before he was called up. Obviously you can never be sure about anyone, let alone a rookie, but Cabrera seems like as safe a bet as any.

by bentausig on Jan 5, 2008 12:10 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Great take on the situation Ryan. Infield defense should be a priority, but how to achieve it?

by oxforddave on Jan 4, 2008 3:30 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Ryan,

I've got a problem with this. Josh Barfield, by all defensive metrics, is a total hack:

http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy =zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B% 5D=1&pos_filter%5B%5D=4&Submit=Submit

I just don't see how the defense of Marte,Barfield,Droobs is THAT much better than (Marte/Blake),Peralta,Droobs.

Toss in the much more likely offensive prowess of a (Marte/Blake),Peralta,Droobs infiend and I think you've more than made up for their slightly worse defense.

Also, shouldn't having Marte at 3B allow us to shield some of Jhonny's craptacular range?

by gte619n on Jan 4, 2008 8:39 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Barfield's not that important to my scheme - it could be someone else. The most important thing is Asdrubal Cabrera to short.

Also, shouldn't having Marte at 3B allow us to shield some of Jhonny's craptacular range?

I suppose so, but Marte/Cabrera would take the Indians from one of the worst defensive sides of the infield to one of the best. Peralta/Cabrera would probably mean more offense and less defense than Marte/Cabrera, but still a better configuration than the present one.

by Ryan on Jan 4, 2008 8:47 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Peralta's bat is important to this lineup, but his defense holds the team back vs using Cabrera at SS. I'm all for putting Marte and Cabrera on the left side, but it degrades our offense. I'm not aware of any other position Peralta can play with efficiency. High quality third basemen come with a hefty price tag, so a mid market team needs to assume some risk and give a guy like Marte time to prove himself. This is one of the reasons that mid market teams rarely advance though the post season, the necessity to assume this kind of additional risk. Having said all this, we won a ton of games using Blake, Peralta and Cabrera last year, so perhaps the prudent course is to continue that until other issues surface.

by elsandito on Jan 4, 2008 9:15 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
peralta's bat becomes worth a whole lot less at 3B. he's just a hair below average there, at that point, it's not important to the lineup anymore. If Peralta can't play MI, he probably should be moved.

by 7foot3 on Jan 4, 2008 3:15 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I've never liked JP at short. Its the most important defensive position on the field, and he just doesn't have the reactions, physically and mentally, to be good at it. Adequate, given a plus bat for the spot, yes, but not good.

I really don't care if A-Cab stays at 2B if we somehow get a true SS, but I think in the future it is more likely we will find a 2B from within and let Astro move to short.

Mark Ellis is a premiere 2B and could probably be had without nearly the cost of some of his on the block teammates, but does anyone actually want to bet any money at all that JP won't be our SS this year?

As for the future, A-Cab is the only guy I have confidence saying will be in the infield in 2010.

by mcrose on Jan 4, 2008 3:23 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Timing is a big problem. The Indians have pretty much backed themselves into a corner, because they're still committed to giving Andy Marte another shot, and they have Casey Blake as the starter. And we don't really know if Jhonny can play a good third base, and won't know until the Indians have figured out what to do with Blake/Marte.

So that makes acquiring Ellis problematic, because it would create a real logjam, unless they'd move Blake to the bench, something that's not happening.

Probably the best-case scenario is a transition year, where Blake and Peralta share time at third, Cabrera and Peralta share time at short, and Cabrera and Carroll share time at second. I don't really see Marte staying with the team through Opening Day.

by Ryan on Jan 4, 2008 4:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Really, you see Marte traded in ST? Seems they have a spot on the 25 for him if everything stays pat and BenFran goes down to Buffalo. Better yet, BF stays up and Michaels is let go in ST.

I agree about being backed in to a corner - that's the downside of milking options to maintain depth.

I know it won't happen, but I would be for getting Ellis now and avoiding the logjam by trading Peralta, who will bring a very good prospect or two in return. Ellis comes close to replacing Peralta's production, Marte still gets a shot, and the infield defense takes a quantum leap. Awright, half a quantum. With the pitching we're going to have this year, it'd be well worth it to me.

by mcrose on Jan 4, 2008 4:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I agree with Ryan on the best case scenario for 2008, but his question asked about a "long-term infield configuration."

Sadly, the minor league system does not appear to have many top-notch prospects at 2B/SS/3B. Wes Hodges, Josh Rodriguez, and Jared Goedert all have some potential, but they have not proven themselves at the AA level, much less AAA. And there are some injury issues in this group.

by kov on Jan 4, 2008 5:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
[deleted,off-topic, flame-baiting]

The tone is much better when people talk about baseball, not themselves.

by Ryan on Jan 4, 2008 4:25 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I've already felt that JP's defense is the most overblown topic among Tribe fans. How could pitchers like Carmona or Westbrook succeed with somebody, who from reading fan forums, who can't field/move/throw well at SS.

Two 90+ win season's with Peralta at SS tells me this isn't that big a deal. Plus moving Peralta out of the SS position hands Barfield an everday spot which is undeserved. Is moving JP out of SS worth having an automatic out in Barfield in the lineup?

IMO, status quo is working fine IMO.

by mikebrowns26 on Jan 4, 2008 4:50 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Dealing Peralta probably makes Jamey Carroll our starting 2B until/unless Barfield earns the spot.  It sends us searching for another utility infielder.

Is Peralta's range so limited that he couldn't be moved to 2B?  Seriously.

"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jan 4, 2008 4:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I agree. I think the issue of JP's defense and conditioning is way, way overdone.

by afh4 on Jan 4, 2008 4:57 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Thirded! I'm a big Peralta fan. I'd never claim that he's the second coming of Ozzie Smith or anything, but the fact is when you combine all the defensive metrics out there he turns out to be an average defensive shortstop. Average for a major leaguer turns out to be pretty damned good, and anyway, they can't all be above average.

His bat carries his glove at SS, easily. He never gets hurt. He's young and still pretty cheap, and cost-controlled for the next four years. So what if he looks half-asleep sometimes? He led the AL in HRs by a shortstop!

by mrich on Jan 4, 2008 5:28 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Fourthed.  I think a lot of people's hatred of Jhonny is fueled by his laid-back demeanor and how he looks in the field, rather than what the various defensive metrics tell us, and they discount his excellent offense.  It's essentially the flip side of the same impulse that leads people to overvalue the David Ecksteins of the world.

by Jackdaw on Jan 5, 2008 4:44 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Hatred is a pretty strong word. Speaking for myself, I just don't like having a below avg defensive SS, sort of on principle. That goes for any position, but especially SS. If you could somehow show me mathematically that different SS's added exactly the same total value to a given team, making them "equal", I might say ok, but I'd still prefer the SS who was the better defender.

That's just the kinda guy I am.

As far as JP's defense in particular, I'll have to remind everyone that that "total number value" has yet to be invented, and that not only is there not a fully accurate (as in reflective of reality) defensive metric available anywhere, but that just because some evaluations contain a subjective element does not make them wrong.

Worthwhile to note that the Tribe's own "secret" means of evaluating defensive performance had JP at or near the bottom of the SS pile this time last year, and while he did what they asked and came into '07 in better shape, its probably a good bet that those same secret metrics still peg him in the bottom half somewhere.

Sometimes when someone looks laid back and a little slow in the field, he actually is.

by mcrose on Jan 7, 2008 12:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
What the eyes sees as far as defensive prowess is the truth.  With hitting seeing isn't 100% but with defense it is.  No statistics will ever be able to fully capture what a good or what a poor defender is.  That is the one flaw with money ball, because infield defense leads to championships.  You can use range factor or the other bogus defensive metrics all you want but the truth lies in the results.  Jhonny is one of the worst defensive SS in the league all around.  He has some good qualities for a SS, particularly as good enough arm and seems adept around the bag but his range and glove to hand transfers are very poor.
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages ... It is ridiculed It is violently opposed Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Jan 7, 2008 12:16 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Actually, zone rating is basically a mathematical evaluation of range. Seeing is never believing.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 7, 2008 2:07 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I think both of you are wrong, from what I've read most FO and I would bet this includes Shapiro, think rating a player is 50% scouting reports and 40% stats and 10% luck. So my guess with the tribe it is 75% Wedge and 25 % stats.
Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Jan 7, 2008 7:45 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Mientkiewicz + Mark Ellis + Omar + Pedro Feliz = Championship.

It's science.

by gte619n on Jan 7, 2008 8:54 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Using a link from above . . . http://www.hardballtimes.com/thtstats/main/index.php?view=fielding&linesToDisplay=50&orderBy =zone_rating&direction=DESC&qual_filter=1&season_filter%5B%5D=2007&league_filter%5B% 5D=1&pos_filter%5B%5D=6&Submit=Submit

Jhonny's stats may be a little skewed as the number of chances in his zone is a lot higher then the average player's. Last year, he had 427. Then it goes 419, 416, then some stuff in the 300w. Basically, without doing any math, the average number seems to be in the 360s (roughly) - he seems to make a lot of plays out of his zone (although he is last for plays in his zone, for the majors)

All that said, I did not get to watch a ton of games last year, but I am OK with Jhonny. If Barfield can hit (and steal) then maybe I would feel better about moving Peralta.

On a side note - look at Tulowitzki's stats.

by vaugheyj on Jan 4, 2008 5:40 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I am really hesitant about crowning Asdrubal as anything right now. He played less than half a season (and did so very well) but that really proves very little. He is tremendously talented but projecting him to eventually be a superior hitter to Barfield could be a problem. I am all for allowing Cabrera and Barfield to play for the second base job in ST and leaving Blake and Peralta on the left. Marte, like Ryan said, is just going tohave to get it done in minimal appearances.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 4, 2008 6:22 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I think with a full season of Marte to his right, and Astro to his left, Jhonny's defensive metrics will be (crosses fingers, says little prayer) at least average for an AL SS.

His bat is excellent for SS, obviously.

by gte619n on Jan 4, 2008 7:48 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I don't factor in Marte's defensive abilities, although they are good.  He has yet to show any indication that he can hit at the major league level, and his AAA numbers the last 2 years are not that impressive, considering his high prospect rating.  Cabrera is such a superior shortstop defensively I too would move him there, with Peralta at 3rd.  
It looks like the FO is still trying to justify the Crisp - Marte trade, why, I don't know.
The opposite of the preferential treatment given to Marte, is how Garko had to beg to be part of the Indians roster at the beginning of last year, after 45 rbis is 50 games in 2006.
If keeping Cabrera was the deal breaker with Haren, then that can be questioned.  But I would not give 4 top prospects to him anyway.  Wonder what the Marlins wanted from the Indians for Miguel Cabrera.

by DenverIndian on Jan 4, 2008 8:56 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
When would you say that Marte received preferential treatment?  I can't identify any time I felt that the Indians were giving him special leeway to justify the Crisp trade.

by jds16 on Jan 4, 2008 9:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I think you've stumbled upon the ultimate solution. We trade for Miguel Cabrera to play third and Orlando Cabrera to play SS and we positon Asdrubal at second base. Cleveland can market the team as "The Cabrera Era".

by elsandito on Jan 4, 2008 10:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
[deleted, off-topic]

by Ryan on Jan 6, 2008 6:00 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I think the Front Office has to justify the Marte-Crisp trade given the hype surrounding Andy.  That said I don't think it is the right think to do.  I felt last year we should have dealt him for a LF.  Had we dealt him for a good LF, we MIGHT have won the world series last year but who is to know for sure.  Marte never will become the player he was said to be.  At best he will become a little worse the Pedro Feliz based on his production the last few years at AAA.  
All Truth Goes Through Three Stages ... It is ridiculed It is violently opposed Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Jan 6, 2008 6:39 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Leaving aside your substance-free projection of Marte.

There is no basis for saying the front office "has to justify" the Marte deal or anything else.  For one thing, they don't have to justify anything, and they have shown consistently that they're not interested in making moves to score PR points.

Did they put Marte back at third base once he got off the DL in May?

Did they keep Barfield in the lineup?

Have they signed an overpriced free agent or over-pay for "name" talent in a trade?

Did they keep running Oldberto out there, or Jason Johnson the year before?

Did they keep Phillips to justify the Colon deal?

Did they duck blowing up the team in 2002 when it was the right thing to do?

Were they willing to pay any price, without limits, to keep Thome around?

Did they make any attempt to keep Omar?

Say what you will of these moves, the clear pattern is that the front office doesn't "have to justify" anything they do -- they got the wins, and now they'll get the ticket sales -- and they're not interested in doing things that way.

by Jay on Jan 6, 2008 10:17 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Preferential treatment for Marte - what did he do to justify starting the season at 3rd base last year ?  He has been pretty pitiful at the plate in the majors the last 2 years. The count is 0-2, and he waves at a slider in the dirt low and away. Or a high fastball that he chases out of the zone. Sound familiar ?  Pitchers just love hitters like this.  It is so easy.
 If he was an outstanding hitter in the high minors, I can see being more patient with him.  But that is not the case.  I suppose they will give him the 3rd base job again this year, with the same result.  
At some point you have to let him go.  We cannot babysit him forever.  

by DenverIndian on Jan 4, 2008 11:04 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Well he was an "outstanding hitter in the high minors". It was just two years ago when he was with the Braves. He hit .878 OPS in AAA in 2005 (389 ABs). So, I think you would agree that you need to be patient with him.

Unfortunately, we have been patient enough, he's had plenty of time (two years folks) to even come close to that production in AAA and has not. He is out of options, and needs to be on the ML club in the middle of a pennant race. He needs to hit if he is going to stick.

I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about. He's either going to hit and play more, or not and ride the bench until being traded. There's no preferential treatment going on here. (He was justified in getting the shot at the job last year because of being only one year removed from an excellent season in AAA, and because Casey Blake became valuable to us as our RF at the time).

by hans on Jan 4, 2008 11:59 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
In 2007 in spring training, Marte hit .276/.323/.414 with 2 home runs in 58 at bats. That's what he did to earn the starting job coming out of Winter Haven.

It's not like he tanked in Winter Haven and they handed him the job.  He performed at an acceptable level, and there was little reason to believe that, given time to adjust, that he wouldn't be able to put up acceptable numbers at the major league level.

He has been a slow starter at every level until he adjusts, and he's never had enough at bats at the major league level to show whether he can make that adjustment.

Some guys need time to adjust.  Mike Schmidt was horrible his first year.  Pedroia didn't take off this year until May.  Andy Marte got hurt before we could see whether he was going to make the adjustments necessary to stick.  I'm not saying that Marte will be the next Mike Schmidt, but I am saying that given the limited at bats he's had, we have no way of knowing.

If we're not going to commit to playing him, every day, at third base, come hell or high water, long enough to see how good he can be, then we need to trade him to somebody who will.

"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jan 5, 2008 10:45 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
?  No preferential treatment for Marte ?  He was justified in getting a shot at the job at 3rd base because of "only one year removed from an excellent season in AAA."
That doesn't sound like much of a recommendation to me.  Ben Francisco is the 2007 Intl League batting champ and I don't see anyone clamoring for him to start this year in left field. He hit pretty well in his short stint with the Indians last year and was sent back down.
Good thing that Jake Westbrook developed an injury when he did it last year - Fausto Carmona was headed back to Buffalo.
Sometimes you have to scratch your head at the moves of the FO.  Remember Jason Johnson as our 5th starter, as bad in 2006 as Lee and Sowers were in 2007, yet it took until when, August, for the Indians to wake up.  Well, they did trade him to the Red Sox, and Boston even started him a couple of games.  Hard to believe it.
All of those glowing reports about Marte's potential as a 20, 21 YO prospect. Traded from Atlanta to Boston to Cleveland.  It made me leery.  There are always plenty of "can't miss" prospects that in fact, never do have a viable career in the big leagues.

by DenverIndian on Jan 5, 2008 1:19 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
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by afh4 on Jan 5, 2008 1:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I never was in the Marte camp and felt that Shoppach was the best player in the deal for either side.  Coco Crisp value wasn't fully exploited in my view.  Seems to be this front office is very poor in determining which young players to bring long and which player to have stay put.  Remember "unmentionable 2b and unmentionable SP" now remember both Sizemore and Carmona were only on the team due to injuries.  Their track record is very poor to say the least.  

I would rather see Fransico get a chance over Dellucci and Michaels both who should be end of the roster players not platoon players.  For the record I don't believe Platoons work either.  Michaels has topped out and will never improve from this point forward and Dellucci is already 2 years past his prime and falling faster then Trot Nixon did.  We have a serious LF problem coming into this year and I really don't feel like Gutiérrez is going to improve enough to cover up for the lack of production out of LF.  Add in uncertain production from 2nd and 3rd as well as a correction from Catching and now you have a struggling offense.

Based on the off season moves the teams AL Central have made I could see these record corrections from last year.

Indians -8 games
Tigers  +5
Twins   +3 (if they keep Santana)
White Sox +3
Royals   +12

Records
Tigers    93 69
Indians   88 74
Twins     82 80
Royals    81 81
White Sox 75 87

All Truth Goes Through Three Stages ... It is ridiculed It is violently opposed Finally, it is accepted as self-evident LGT resident kinesiologist

by E5 on Jan 5, 2008 3:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Welcome back everyone to... Non Fact Supported Statements! We don't need stats, numbers, reasoning or logic. Let's just use our feelings, how players look, and a few irrational emotions to evaluate players!

Look, this front office is the one that acquired Sizemore and Carmona. Even including Phillips and Guthrie (who has pitched all of 175 effective innings) that is a .500 record on projecting prospects. Anyone would take that. If Shapiro can, right now, take four players from the Indians farm system and guarantee that they will be major producers in three years, then he is far ahead of the game.

Or maybe we should just base it on your feelings. Also! When Shoppach was 23 he was in AA. So maybe Marte deserves a bit more time.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Jan 5, 2008 11:29 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Hey standardized test basher. Go to the "Intelligence" diary and respond to my post. I want to know your basis for your statement there. do it. do it.

by hans on Jan 6, 2008 2:10 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
I'm not going to bother with anything but this:

"For the record I don't believe Platoons work either."

Use more than one example when you make statements. Remember 2006 and 1B? Broussard and Perez? They OPS+ed 106 and 146 for us that year while they were here.

by Voltaire on Jan 6, 2008 12:33 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
How did we magically lose 8 games?

by gte619n on Jan 7, 2008 9:00 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
E5, please let me know soon which 8 games we're going to lose so I can make sure I don't pick those dates in my 2008 package. Thanks much.

by ploni on Jan 7, 2008 8:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Another White Sox Trade
Rumor has the White Sox trading Konerko possibly for Figgins. (link below)

Ummm,  the al central is gonna be ridiculous.  

http://mlbfleecefactor.com/2008/01/05/more-on-the-konerko-to-la-rumor/

by em3 on Jan 5, 2008 11:36 AM EST   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
I assume this is so they can keep Jerry Owens in the lineup as a CF.

Uhh. Ok KW. Ok.

by afh4 on Jan 5, 2008 11:47 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
Wouldn't Figgins play CF, and now they get put Swisher at 1B and guarantee a spot for quentin?

by 7foot3 on Jan 5, 2008 1:54 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
Exactly.  Figgins in CF and Swisher at 1B.  It gives them a more fluid lineup.  I'm not sure why LA would do this, though.

by em3 on Jan 5, 2008 2:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
But then, what does LA do with Kotchman?
"Hey, you! Get off our lawn!" -- New Detroit Tigers Team Motto

Pronk Needs You

by woodsmeister on Jan 5, 2008 2:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
because figgins isn't really as good as he was in 07?

by 7foot3 on Jan 5, 2008 3:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
Whoops. I got the Swisher to first thing but was thinking of Figgins as a 2B.

Looking at the situation, Figgins didn't play any CF last year, mostly 3B. He has played it in the past, pretty effectively. He is turning 30 on January 22 and all that, but him in CF seems like an OK bet.

Who are the Sox going to play at 2B? Is Danny Richar being handed the job? Or is it going to be Ozuna, Uribe, or Richar?

I don't really like the move for the Sox, though. I think getting by with Swisher in CF is an alright idea, at least in what should be close to Dye's last year of productivity. Konerko is also on the down swing. I'd keep this offense together for this year and then deal with getting Swisher to 1B and upgrading the OF defense.

I just don't think Figgins is very valuble; his bat was alright for CF last year but not so much in the past. If his GPA ends up around .255, which seems like a possibility to me, or if he gets hurt, which seems like a possibility to me, well, I don't think this is a deal to make.

Besides, they need pitching. Period.

by afh4 on Jan 5, 2008 2:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Another White Sox Trade
probably your 2nd option for the 2B situation. Most 75-80 win teams on paper should be throwing richar in there and seeing if he's any good, but the white sox have to contend now, goddamnit. If you just look at last year's numbers (which KW just might be) figgins probably is a much better choice for that team.

but yes, any team that has (ZiPS ERA projections included) contreras (4.73), danks (5.90), floyd (5.87), broadway (6.17), haeger (5.89) competing for 3 spots in the rotation, and that pen last year, probably shouldn't be worrying about maximizing their efficiency from CF/1B

by 7foot3 on Jan 5, 2008 3:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
How about sliding Peralta to 2nd and putting Marte at 3rd if he has even a reasonably decent spring?  Then there's spots for all three and at positions that would maximize their defensive abilities.  Then you can spin Barfield for something else...I really see him as the odd man out.

by AdverbHarry on Jan 5, 2008 6:02 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
The thing with Barfield, is that we can stick him in AAA all of this year and see what happens. He might become a tradable commodity. Or we could keep him and slide him back to second base if we need.

by hans on Jan 6, 2008 2:08 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
OK, I just wanted to chime in on Peralta here... Peralt was fifth in the league in RC for shortsops with 83 last year... I was looking for his FRAR stats but couldn't find them, but let's assume he was the league's worst SS in that category since he is consistently near the bottom in other defensive categories. The point is, for those clamoring to trade Peralta, I think we're really overvaluing defense here. We managed to win 96 games with 2-3 primarliy sinkerball pitchers this year, so I don't see how the marginal upgrade of defense by acquiring a playing like Roberts and shifting A-Cab to short could justify removing Jhonny's potent bat from a lineup that needs all the firepower we can get.
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Jan 6, 2008 12:23 PM EST   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
Yep yep and yep. I'm a huge Peralta fan and can't stand incessant talk of trading him.

Also: we can't just ASSUME he could shift to 3B and be fine! What if we shift him to 3B and he sucks? Then what?

by Voltaire on Jan 6, 2008 12:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
You could also make a case that JP's offense is overrated here. Replacing him with Roberts would probably actually be a marginal increase in offense with a great increase in defense.

All the players that have been mentioned as attractive acqs for 2B and letting ACab move to short are pretty much Jhonny's equal or better on offense, albeit with more of a "middle infielder" approach as opposed to JP's power/strikeout profile.

Ellis, Roberts, Hudson all have similar career ops as JP, comparing even more favorably if you just take the last 3 years of each (which includes Jhonny's great '05 season).

Seems to me the marginal difference is on the offensive side, not the defensive side, where the difference in having ACab paired with any of the above 2B would, in most evaluations, be significant.

by mcrose on Jan 7, 2008 12:27 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Catching Up
But Jhonny is 5 years younger than all three of those guys.

by afh4 on