Let's Go Tribe!: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: The Numbers Game: A BCS Status Update Bar-right-arrows

CC - just 3 days rest for 4th straight time

Img_0095-b_tiny by LeftyCatcher on

CC will be starting tonight on just three days' rest for the fourth straight time even though he's already pitched 253 innings this season

Thomas Boswell writes in the Washington Post:

Like most tales as compelling as this, there's a back story. Sabathia is not just competitive but proud. That pride was mocked last October when, after a Cy Young season, he got nervous and allowed 15 earned runs and 13 walks in 15 1/3 ugly postseason innings.

"I think you'll see a more calmer version of me," Sabathia said. "Last year I went into the playoffs thinking I had to throw no-hitters. That's why you saw me pressing a lot."

Sabathia claims he's not purging the past. He just loves the Brewers like family now. Milwaukee is nuts over the Crew in a way Cleveland wasn't over the Indians. So he wants to bring everybody in Wisconsin a beer and a world title.

I don't live in Cleveland but I think Indians fans were just as nuts over the Indians last year as the Brewer fans have been this year.  Am I wrong?

The bigger question is are the Brewers putting Sabathia's career in jeopardy?

 

0 recs | Comment 127 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Hello LeftyCatcher,

1. I think Indians’ fans were just as nuts, if not more so, than the Brewers’ fans are over the Brewers. While Milwaukee may have been out of the postseason for 26 years, the Indians have gone without a WS title for 59 years (at the time of last offseason) – the Brewers franchise in Milwaukee hasn’t even been around for that long.

I’m not saying the Brewers’ fans aren’t passionate about their team, but there’s no question Indians’ fans were just as passionate, if not even moreso, as these Brewers fans are.

If Sabathia is saying this, he might be just trying to “pump up” the Brewers’ fanbase (i.e. make them feel really good). He has to know the Indians’ fans were very passionate in their own right – why was Jacobs Field rocking like it was last year when we were winning and rightfully concerned when Sabathia was struggling in his postseason starts? Certainly they were passionate.

2. In regards to whether Sabathia’s career is being put in jeopardy, I doubt the continuous starts over this length of period of time on only 3 days’ rest is helping his career. While pitchers from earlier eras were used to doing this on a regular basis and were fine, Sabathia is certainly not used to doing this, so it would not surprise me if this affects him adversely somewhere down the road. I hope it doesn’t, but it wouldn’t surprise me – it’s just that big of a change for today’s pitchers, in my opinion, since it’s very rare for them to go on 3 days’ rest. To do it for four straight starts when your body is used to going on 4 days’ rest throughout your professional career (CC had only started on 3 days’ rest once with the Indians), I’m thinking it’s not likely to help his career, and potentially could jeopardize it to some extent.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 2, 2008 4:48 PM EDT   0 recs

Hello again LeftyCatcher,

And, don’t forget about the incident with LeBron James – most Indians’ fans let him know they didn’t appreciate his wearing a Yankees’ cap to that playoff series between the Yankees and Indians at Jacobs Field – that definitely sounds likes “passion” or “nuts” to me. :-)

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 2, 2008 4:51 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If Sabathia is saying this

It looks to me like the writer is saying it, not C.C.

by JulioBernazard on Oct 3, 2008 12:36 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hello Julio,

Rereading it again, you may be right. I wasn’t sure the first time, which is why I put the “If”.

It’s unfortunate CC had another poor postseason outing. It’s likely the 3-days’ rest did not help, but at the same time, he may be the type of pitcher who just can’t control his nerves or emotions enough to allow himself to do what he is capable of doing in the regular season, and as a result, his command is off just enough to either walk guys or for guys to hit pitches hard. Instead of throwing quality strikes like he does in the regular season, he throws “get-me-over” strikes in the postseason that get hit hard, leading to much run damage and high early pitch counts.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 3, 2008 2:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

FWIW, we discussed this passage somewhere in another thread.

And I’m sure CC had hundreds of conversations with Keith Woolner here in Cleveland in which Keith showed CC all the data that suggested pitchers are fine going on 3 days rest and should do it more often. CC’s totally a saber-head.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 5:18 PM EDT   0 recs

Looks like all those innings are catching up to CC in the 2nd inning here.

LGT's resident beer connaisseur.

by LGT Patrick on Oct 2, 2008 6:54 PM EDT   0 recs

Brett Myers is a bad person.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 6:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Come on. I’m rooting for the Phillies now. Charlie deserves it.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 7:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

“Come on” what?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 7:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Kidding. You’re referring to Myers assaults, I presume.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 8:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Guys like that don’t deserve scrappy ABs and standing ovations.

Also, I’m grumpy and overprotective of my CC.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 8:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree with the standing ovation stuff. But I’m through with C.C. It’s painful watching him pitch in another jersey.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 8:25 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Cue Chuck, “can’t take the pressure”, etc.

http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.

by zempf on Oct 2, 2008 7:00 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

51 pitches through the first two.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 7:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sabathia pulled with the bases loaded & 2 down in the 4th. I kinda feel for the guy — you have to wonder how much that one pitching performance just cost him in free agent money, plus the ammunition it’ll give to people who think he’s a choker.

http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.

by zempf on Oct 2, 2008 7:38 PM EDT   0 recs

How much it cost him in FA money = absolutely zero.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 7:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Steve Phillips said that verbatim. Which means, you are steve Phillips. Sucks to be you.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 2, 2008 7:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Steve Phillips knows how to drive on the right side of the road, too.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 8:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

True, I suppose GMs will still be falling all over themselves to throw money at him, shitty postseason ERA or no.

http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.

by zempf on Oct 2, 2008 8:04 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sure. He gets you TO the post-season, which is more than most pitchers are able to do. He’s clearly trying to do too much in the playoffs, though. I confess I thought he was going to do better this time. Going on three days rest was stupid and fed the problem, I fear. Here’s one of those times when a manager could make a difference — tell CC to sit down and wait till game 3.

Oh well. CC can still pitch for my team any day.

by peter m on Oct 2, 2008 8:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Right. It would have made sense to throw Vilanueva or McClung or Parra out there and hope they can give you a Byrd-like outing.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 2, 2008 8:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That would have taken courage, which Sveum can’t afford to have. Have to give props to Wedge for going with Byrd last postseason.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 8:27 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

But if it works, and CC wins game 3 (I know, Chuck, I know…) his job status looks damn good for 2009.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 2, 2008 8:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

He should just be on the regular season roster. Or maybe you use him as a pitchhitter in the postseason.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 8:22 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hell, he threw only 98 pitches. (Just joking—it’s appalling how much he has been whipped.)

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 8:28 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow. Maybe there should be different compensation packages for the regular season than for the post-season.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Oct 2, 2008 7:56 PM EDT   0 recs

Shap would not have agreed to that, knowing what an excellent October performer CC is.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 2, 2008 8:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

It’s a good thing I don’t root for a National League club. I can’t even imagine how pissed I’d be if our ace walked a pitcher in the playoffs.

by jhon on Oct 2, 2008 8:26 PM EDT   0 recs

I guess no one is surprised that CC finally ran out of gas pitching for the 4th time in 13 days? Props to CC, he’s got heart, but he made it plain the Indians offer wouldn’t be enough, so we rented him out to the Brewers.

The irony? The Brewer’s overuse (abuse) might result in Sabathia getting no better deal than what the Indians were prepared to give him.

by LeftyCatcher on Oct 2, 2008 8:58 PM EDT   0 recs

He’s going to make way more than the Indians offered him. Way more.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 9:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I’m not so sure his last 4 innings are going to make people forget about the 17 or so starts he made before that.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 9:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I just tuned in to the Dodgers/Cubs game…

I had somehow forgotten that Casey Blake ever existed.

by still ill on Oct 2, 2008 9:56 PM EDT   0 recs

I just realized that I am enjoying being able to root for Manny again.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 2, 2008 10:14 PM EDT   0 recs

Ditto. I was thinking that if the Red Sox and the White Sox get knocked out, I don’t really care who wins.

http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.

by zempf on Oct 2, 2008 10:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Somehow, Manny’s success with the Dodgers diminishes the Red Sox.

by odradek on Oct 2, 2008 11:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The Dodgers have really looked impressive.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 11:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

NL Central looking like AL Central.

If the Dodgers stay hot, we’ll have a Freeway series.

by palcal on Oct 2, 2008 11:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

That’s a long freeway to Tampa.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 11:59 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Keep Casey looking heroic, so someone else will sign him for three years.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 12:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hank Steinbrenner = hyperventilating

by JulioBernazard on Oct 3, 2008 12:32 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

The new front page headline is depressing.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 2, 2008 10:59 PM EDT   0 recs

Even if it’s tongue-in-cheek, t’s lame.

by JulioBernazard on Oct 3, 2008 12:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

^ it’s lame

by JulioBernazard on Oct 3, 2008 12:37 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

why’s it lame? chuck called it, stuck to his guns against dozens and proved to be dead on. i think he earned that one. you’d all be calling him out to eat crow if CC pitched a no hitter.

by Brick. on Oct 3, 2008 10:30 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

What he said.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Oct 3, 2008 10:46 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sort of. Chuck also predicted CC would fold down the stretch trying to get the Brewers into the playoffs. I think Voltaire called it: “He always chokes, unless he doesn’t. But he will next time!”

CC’s postseason is turning into Andy Marte. I just need more starts before I declare anything. Unfortunately the Brewers don’t look like they’ll survive long enough.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 11:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I give Chuck his props — or at least his moment. He deserves the moment.

Bottom line is, though, this doesn’t really change C.C.’s outlook for 2009. You still expect him to dominate in the regular season, and when you get to the postseason, you take your chances that he rights himself the third time around.

This is a tainted trial anyway, what with the four straight starts on short rest.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 11:55 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Bottom line is, though, this doesn’t really change C.C.’s outlook for 2009.

Not at all. And if there’s a GM out there who wants to shave a couple million per off his contract, there are 4 GMs who will still pay him.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 12:09 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

This is a tainted trial anyway, what with the four straight starts on short rest.

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Oct 3, 2008 1:37 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You guys are bailing out. C.C. didn’t pitch as well in his fifth postseason start as Greg Maddux did in his. But it’s still small sample size. And, of course, he pitches well down the stretch, and—of course—he was starting on short rest. How many excuses will be made for his performances in the postseason?

Of course it has nothing to do with C.C.‘s 2009 jackpot. But it does have something to do with how C.C. pitched for the Tribe in last season’s playoffs.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If you accuse people of bailing CC out, you should at least admit you’re looking for reasons to pile on him. You can’t recognize any of those bail-out reasons, at least the small sample size?

I tell you what. I’ll take a team of A-Rod and CC, and you take a team of, I don’t know, Jeff Suppan and David Eckstein. Proving chokers and proven postseason heroes.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You can’t tar me with the clutch thing again, because nowhere have I uttered it. I’ll take Vlad Guerrero and Greg Maddux (1994 version).

Of course I am predisposed to be negative of C.C. Or, more properly, I wasn’t predisposed until he pitched like a total bum in the postseason last year. I loved him when he pitched for the Tribe, but he had a propensity to unravel when something went against him. He is an emotional guy, and his inability to control his emotions cost the Indians a chance at winning the World Series in 2007.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 2:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Vlad Guerrero of the .203/.271/.250 postseason line?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep. He’s not a “gamer” or a “clutch player,” but I think he will hit. In his case I think it has been SSS and a sore shoulder.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Interesting.

And I’ll grant you a post too late that the “clutch” thing was a bit of a straw man.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

How can I bail out if I never opted in?

I think it’s fair to say C.C. has turned in mediocre-to-awful performances in five straight postseason starts. That is the headline.

But the rest of the story matters, too. It is a fact that he was going on short rest for the fourth consecutive start — something I’ll be no pitcher has done in any circumstance in over 20 years. Maybe Hershiser in 1988, I’d have to look it up.

It’s also a fact that he has never pitched this many innings before without disintegrating. So that’s another way to look at it.

I’m not looking to make a grand all-at-once judgment on the guy — to me, that’s just simple-minded. I’m just trying to draw out all the facts that are likely to be significant.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 3:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Okay, Jay, you’re exempt. I’m not into grand judgments either. I think it might be a combination of fatigue, stress and emotion: after a long season he’s not as sharp as he is in midseason. Maybe the overwork also had some effect on C.C.‘s poor start this past season. And when he gets juiced up he can’t deliver.

Mitigating factors may figure in his bad postseason performance, but he also might just get too amped up for his own good.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Reports from the game are now suggesting he just simply didn’t have his usual stuff, couldn’t get a fastball past the opposing pitcher, etc. It doesn’t seem like the same type of failure as we saw last postseason, it seems like he finally got pushed too far.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 4:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My recollection—with all due warning for potential inaccuracy—is that he had difficulty getting past hitters last postseason as well.

Do I discern an excuse in your response—it wasn’t the same sort of failure as last year, therefore it is most likely two distinct problems that do not add up to a greater problem?

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Let me try to put this in Marte terms:

Some people say—based on an extraordinary 1200 appearances at a very young age—that he can be a very good hitter.

Other people say—based on 1200 plate appearances since the extraordinary set—that he’s nothing special.

Those in the first camp say his subsequent failure has been the result of various mitigating factors: injury, lack of extended at-bats, boredom in Buffalo, etc.

Those in the second camp tend to ignore the significant indications of his early excellence.

My question: Is it possible that the second Marte is the real Marte and some mitigating factor (who knows what?) enhanced his early performance?

When we continually cite the real C.C. as the one who throws in the regular season, and the false C.C. as the one who pitches in the postseason—and I know in terms of quantity which is the real one—are we being objective?

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 5:07 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Heh, that’s nice.

What’s possible is that they’re both the Real Marte, and they’re both the Real C.C. But while talent ceilings may be constant, a player’s ability in each situation is not a constant. It can get better, it can get worse. If C.C. has a problem — or many problems — in the postseason, that doesn’t mean he won’t solve them.

Remember when he had a problem pitching in his walk year? I believe he eventually solved that one.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:16 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

His problem last year certainly wasn’t velocity — at least not the lack of it — it was control.

It does appear, at first glance, that it’s two different problems.

I would not conclude, however, that it doesn’t add up to a greater problem. Quite the contrary, in fact, it obviously adds up to an even greater problem.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Here’s a list. It was a lot more common in the 1980s than today. This sort of streak doesn’t seem to be very correlated with a winning streak.

by FredOx on Oct 3, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

 It didn’t seem to bother Dennis Leonard or Tom Browning. What about the belief that certain guys can handle it (e.g., Livan)?

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 4:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Livan Hernandez has only pitched 5 times on 3 days rest. He’s 0-4.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 4, 2008 12:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I just mean he is cited as the big, plough-horse kind of guy who can throw 300 innings. Or so the belief.

by odradek on Oct 4, 2008 1:25 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

They’re not excuses; they’re data points. It’s true that CC has yet to have a truly good postseason start. Is it because he is folding under pressure, or is there some other explanation? It’s the Marte discussion – is Andy just not a big league hitter or is it the way he has been used? Likewise, is CC a postseason failure, or does the fact that he pitched 50 more innings (and 1,329 more pitches) in 2008 than Maddux did in 1995 make a difference? Maybe the 108 second half IP in 2007 is a relevant data point when assessing his 2007 performance, as opposed to Schilling (56), Dice-K (85) and Beckett (98). Or perhaps he collapses under pressure like balsa.

by FredOx on Oct 3, 2008 2:12 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, data points. And how we interpret these data points—by we I mean you and me—are both valid. I may be right, and you may be right. But I simply want to point out thy chase had a beast in view. The apologist for C.C. finds a variety of reasons for his underperformance, without accepting that he may not be able to master his emotions at present. It’s also possible that Marte will blossom into a great hitter when he gets his 500 plate appearances, but it’s also possible he will be Chris Sabo.

You acknowledge the possibility that C.C. may not handle pressure well. And I will acknowledge that maybe, when he gets older and more experienced, he will perform as well in the bright lights of the postseason as he does in the regular season. And, I will quickly acknowledge that his workload may have something to do with it.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 2:29 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Addendum: If C.C. had pitched a three-hit shutout yesterday, would people say, well, wait, it looks good, but let’s be prudent because it’s still small sample size.

In terms of falsifiability, one start would serve to discredit the C.C. Can’t Pitch in Postseason thesis, yes? But when C.C. screws up, the apologist can hide behind small sample size and overuse.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

You’d have a point, but CC pitching well yesterday would be what you would expect when you look at the large sample size of his career. CC pitching like CC makes it easier to pass said judgment.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 2:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Andy Petitte is an interesting case here — he pitched pretty badly early in his career in the postseason (although not as badly as CC, to be sure), then did much better and has had, overall, a pretty good post-season record. So, it’s possible that CC will “mature” as you imply. My guess is he needs to stop thinking he’s got the team on his back (which is why he does things like volunteer to teach on three days rest repeatedly).

by peter m on Oct 3, 2008 3:40 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Teaching on three days rest doesn’t seem particularly difficult.

by FredOx on Oct 3, 2008 3:42 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

As someone who teaches, I can (in partial seriousness) say that teachers never “rest” — one avoids work but worries about it constantly, resulting in constant stress and intellectual degradation.

by peter m on Oct 3, 2008 3:50 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OOPS. Now I see what you’re referring to. It’s that intellectual degradation thing — drool….

by peter m on Oct 3, 2008 3:51 PM EDT