CC - just 3 days rest for 4th straight time
by LeftyCatcher on Oct 2, 2008 4:31 PM EDT
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PrintCC will be starting tonight on just three days' rest for the fourth straight time even though he's already pitched 253 innings this season
Thomas Boswell writes in the Washington Post:
Like most tales as compelling as this, there's a back story. Sabathia is not just competitive but proud. That pride was mocked last October when, after a Cy Young season, he got nervous and allowed 15 earned runs and 13 walks in 15 1/3 ugly postseason innings.
"I think you'll see a more calmer version of me," Sabathia said. "Last year I went into the playoffs thinking I had to throw no-hitters. That's why you saw me pressing a lot."
Sabathia claims he's not purging the past. He just loves the Brewers like family now. Milwaukee is nuts over the Crew in a way Cleveland wasn't over the Indians. So he wants to bring everybody in Wisconsin a beer and a world title.
I don't live in Cleveland but I think Indians fans were just as nuts over the Indians last year as the Brewer fans have been this year. Am I wrong?
The bigger question is are the Brewers putting Sabathia's career in jeopardy?
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Hello LeftyCatcher,
1. I think Indians’ fans were just as nuts, if not more so, than the Brewers’ fans are over the Brewers. While Milwaukee may have been out of the postseason for 26 years, the Indians have gone without a WS title for 59 years (at the time of last offseason) – the Brewers franchise in Milwaukee hasn’t even been around for that long.
I’m not saying the Brewers’ fans aren’t passionate about their team, but there’s no question Indians’ fans were just as passionate, if not even moreso, as these Brewers fans are.
If Sabathia is saying this, he might be just trying to “pump up” the Brewers’ fanbase (i.e. make them feel really good). He has to know the Indians’ fans were very passionate in their own right – why was Jacobs Field rocking like it was last year when we were winning and rightfully concerned when Sabathia was struggling in his postseason starts? Certainly they were passionate.
2. In regards to whether Sabathia’s career is being put in jeopardy, I doubt the continuous starts over this length of period of time on only 3 days’ rest is helping his career. While pitchers from earlier eras were used to doing this on a regular basis and were fine, Sabathia is certainly not used to doing this, so it would not surprise me if this affects him adversely somewhere down the road. I hope it doesn’t, but it wouldn’t surprise me – it’s just that big of a change for today’s pitchers, in my opinion, since it’s very rare for them to go on 3 days’ rest. To do it for four straight starts when your body is used to going on 4 days’ rest throughout your professional career (CC had only started on 3 days’ rest once with the Indians), I’m thinking it’s not likely to help his career, and potentially could jeopardize it to some extent.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello again LeftyCatcher,
And, don’t forget about the incident with LeBron James – most Indians’ fans let him know they didn’t appreciate his wearing a Yankees’ cap to that playoff series between the Yankees and Indians at Jacobs Field – that definitely sounds likes “passion” or “nuts” to me. :-)
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
If Sabathia is saying this
It looks to me like the writer is saying it, not C.C.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 3, 2008 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Hello Julio,
Rereading it again, you may be right. I wasn’t sure the first time, which is why I put the “If”.
It’s unfortunate CC had another poor postseason outing. It’s likely the 3-days’ rest did not help, but at the same time, he may be the type of pitcher who just can’t control his nerves or emotions enough to allow himself to do what he is capable of doing in the regular season, and as a result, his command is off just enough to either walk guys or for guys to hit pitches hard. Instead of throwing quality strikes like he does in the regular season, he throws “get-me-over” strikes in the postseason that get hit hard, leading to much run damage and high early pitch counts.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
FWIW, we discussed this passage somewhere in another thread.
And I’m sure CC had hundreds of conversations with Keith Woolner here in Cleveland in which Keith showed CC all the data that suggested pitchers are fine going on 3 days rest and should do it more often. CC’s totally a saber-head.
Steel Nick
Looks like all those innings are catching up to CC in the 2nd inning here.
LGT's resident beer connaisseur.
Cue Chuck, “can’t take the pressure”, etc.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.
Sabathia pulled with the bases loaded & 2 down in the 4th. I kinda feel for the guy — you have to wonder how much that one pitching performance just cost him in free agent money, plus the ammunition it’ll give to people who think he’s a choker.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.
Steve Phillips said that verbatim. Which means, you are steve Phillips. Sucks to be you.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
True, I suppose GMs will still be falling all over themselves to throw money at him, shitty postseason ERA or no.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.
Sure. He gets you TO the post-season, which is more than most pitchers are able to do. He’s clearly trying to do too much in the playoffs, though. I confess I thought he was going to do better this time. Going on three days rest was stupid and fed the problem, I fear. Here’s one of those times when a manager could make a difference — tell CC to sit down and wait till game 3.
Oh well. CC can still pitch for my team any day.
Right. It would have made sense to throw Vilanueva or McClung or Parra out there and hope they can give you a Byrd-like outing.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
That would have taken courage, which Sveum can’t afford to have. Have to give props to Wedge for going with Byrd last postseason.
Wow. Maybe there should be different compensation packages for the regular season than for the post-season.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Oct 2, 2008 7:56 PM EDT reply actions
I guess no one is surprised that CC finally ran out of gas pitching for the 4th time in 13 days? Props to CC, he’s got heart, but he made it plain the Indians offer wouldn’t be enough, so we rented him out to the Brewers.
The irony? The Brewer’s overuse (abuse) might result in Sabathia getting no better deal than what the Indians were prepared to give him.
Ditto. I was thinking that if the Red Sox and the White Sox get knocked out, I don’t really care who wins.
http://hasthelargehadroncolliderdestroyedtheworldyet.com -- just in case.
Even if it’s tongue-in-cheek, t’s lame.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 3, 2008 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
why’s it lame? chuck called it, stuck to his guns against dozens and proved to be dead on. i think he earned that one. you’d all be calling him out to eat crow if CC pitched a no hitter.
Sort of. Chuck also predicted CC would fold down the stretch trying to get the Brewers into the playoffs. I think Voltaire called it: “He always chokes, unless he doesn’t. But he will next time!”
CC’s postseason is turning into Andy Marte. I just need more starts before I declare anything. Unfortunately the Brewers don’t look like they’ll survive long enough.
Steel Nick
I give Chuck his props — or at least his moment. He deserves the moment.
Bottom line is, though, this doesn’t really change C.C.’s outlook for 2009. You still expect him to dominate in the regular season, and when you get to the postseason, you take your chances that he rights himself the third time around.
This is a tainted trial anyway, what with the four straight starts on short rest.
This is a tainted trial anyway, what with the four straight starts on short rest.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Oct 3, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys are bailing out. C.C. didn’t pitch as well in his fifth postseason start as Greg Maddux did in his. But it’s still small sample size. And, of course, he pitches well down the stretch, and—of course—he was starting on short rest. How many excuses will be made for his performances in the postseason?
Of course it has nothing to do with C.C.‘s 2009 jackpot. But it does have something to do with how C.C. pitched for the Tribe in last season’s playoffs.
If you accuse people of bailing CC out, you should at least admit you’re looking for reasons to pile on him. You can’t recognize any of those bail-out reasons, at least the small sample size?
I tell you what. I’ll take a team of A-Rod and CC, and you take a team of, I don’t know, Jeff Suppan and David Eckstein. Proving chokers and proven postseason heroes.
Steel Nick
You can’t tar me with the clutch thing again, because nowhere have I uttered it. I’ll take Vlad Guerrero and Greg Maddux (1994 version).
Of course I am predisposed to be negative of C.C. Or, more properly, I wasn’t predisposed until he pitched like a total bum in the postseason last year. I loved him when he pitched for the Tribe, but he had a propensity to unravel when something went against him. He is an emotional guy, and his inability to control his emotions cost the Indians a chance at winning the World Series in 2007.
How can I bail out if I never opted in?
I think it’s fair to say C.C. has turned in mediocre-to-awful performances in five straight postseason starts. That is the headline.
But the rest of the story matters, too. It is a fact that he was going on short rest for the fourth consecutive start — something I’ll be no pitcher has done in any circumstance in over 20 years. Maybe Hershiser in 1988, I’d have to look it up.
It’s also a fact that he has never pitched this many innings before without disintegrating. So that’s another way to look at it.
I’m not looking to make a grand all-at-once judgment on the guy — to me, that’s just simple-minded. I’m just trying to draw out all the facts that are likely to be significant.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, Jay, you’re exempt. I’m not into grand judgments either. I think it might be a combination of fatigue, stress and emotion: after a long season he’s not as sharp as he is in midseason. Maybe the overwork also had some effect on C.C.‘s poor start this past season. And when he gets juiced up he can’t deliver.
Mitigating factors may figure in his bad postseason performance, but he also might just get too amped up for his own good.
Reports from the game are now suggesting he just simply didn’t have his usual stuff, couldn’t get a fastball past the opposing pitcher, etc. It doesn’t seem like the same type of failure as we saw last postseason, it seems like he finally got pushed too far.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
My recollection—with all due warning for potential inaccuracy—is that he had difficulty getting past hitters last postseason as well.
Do I discern an excuse in your response—it wasn’t the same sort of failure as last year, therefore it is most likely two distinct problems that do not add up to a greater problem?
Let me try to put this in Marte terms:
Some people say—based on an extraordinary 1200 appearances at a very young age—that he can be a very good hitter.
Other people say—based on 1200 plate appearances since the extraordinary set—that he’s nothing special.
Those in the first camp say his subsequent failure has been the result of various mitigating factors: injury, lack of extended at-bats, boredom in Buffalo, etc.
Those in the second camp tend to ignore the significant indications of his early excellence.
My question: Is it possible that the second Marte is the real Marte and some mitigating factor (who knows what?) enhanced his early performance?
When we continually cite the real C.C. as the one who throws in the regular season, and the false C.C. as the one who pitches in the postseason—and I know in terms of quantity which is the real one—are we being objective?
Heh, that’s nice.
What’s possible is that they’re both the Real Marte, and they’re both the Real C.C. But while talent ceilings may be constant, a player’s ability in each situation is not a constant. It can get better, it can get worse. If C.C. has a problem — or many problems — in the postseason, that doesn’t mean he won’t solve them.
Remember when he had a problem pitching in his walk year? I believe he eventually solved that one.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
His problem last year certainly wasn’t velocity — at least not the lack of it — it was control.
It does appear, at first glance, that it’s two different problems.
I would not conclude, however, that it doesn’t add up to a greater problem. Quite the contrary, in fact, it obviously adds up to an even greater problem.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s a list. It was a lot more common in the 1980s than today. This sort of streak doesn’t seem to be very correlated with a winning streak.
They’re not excuses; they’re data points. It’s true that CC has yet to have a truly good postseason start. Is it because he is folding under pressure, or is there some other explanation? It’s the Marte discussion – is Andy just not a big league hitter or is it the way he has been used? Likewise, is CC a postseason failure, or does the fact that he pitched 50 more innings (and 1,329 more pitches) in 2008 than Maddux did in 1995 make a difference? Maybe the 108 second half IP in 2007 is a relevant data point when assessing his 2007 performance, as opposed to Schilling (56), Dice-K (85) and Beckett (98). Or perhaps he collapses under pressure like balsa.
Yes, data points. And how we interpret these data points—by we I mean you and me—are both valid. I may be right, and you may be right. But I simply want to point out thy chase had a beast in view. The apologist for C.C. finds a variety of reasons for his underperformance, without accepting that he may not be able to master his emotions at present. It’s also possible that Marte will blossom into a great hitter when he gets his 500 plate appearances, but it’s also possible he will be Chris Sabo.
You acknowledge the possibility that C.C. may not handle pressure well. And I will acknowledge that maybe, when he gets older and more experienced, he will perform as well in the bright lights of the postseason as he does in the regular season. And, I will quickly acknowledge that his workload may have something to do with it.
Addendum: If C.C. had pitched a three-hit shutout yesterday, would people say, well, wait, it looks good, but let’s be prudent because it’s still small sample size.
In terms of falsifiability, one start would serve to discredit the C.C. Can’t Pitch in Postseason thesis, yes? But when C.C. screws up, the apologist can hide behind small sample size and overuse.
Andy Petitte is an interesting case here — he pitched pretty badly early in his career in the postseason (although not as badly as CC, to be sure), then did much better and has had, overall, a pretty good post-season record. So, it’s possible that CC will “mature” as you imply. My guess is he needs to stop thinking he’s got the team on his back (which is why he does things like volunteer to teach on three days rest repeatedly).
As someone who teaches, I can (in partial seriousness) say that teachers never “rest” — one avoids work but worries about it constantly, resulting in constant stress and intellectual degradation.
Try being self-employed, you’ll beg to go back to teaching.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sure that’s true. I’m not complaining about teaching, just describing it (semi-seriously).
An odd parallel to what you say, though, is that people who are employed (including many teachers) talk about how much they’d like to be self-employed and I’ve interviewed quite a few formerly self-employed people who wish they still were (although what you’re saying is absolutely true).
It is hard to quantify the satisfactions of being self-employed. Then again, if it were easier to monetize, it’d be easier to quantify.
If and when I ever go back, I’m sure I’ll miss it eventually, but I’m also sure I’ll have a deep sense of relief over the steadiness of the income.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
No you can’t, because the three months off (at least at the university level) aren’t off — you just don’t teach. But, you are expected (and rewards follow directly from this) to work on other things (like research, grant-getting, course prep, and so on) while you’re not teaching, so the time is not at all “free” as some people imagine.
What IS true is that teachers (at least university teachers) have a lot of control over when and where they work, something most people don’t have. That’s the real difference, not how many hours or months people spend working. I’ve actually seen NSF data on scientists, for example, that suggest that scientists in academia actually work MORE hours than scientists employed in industry.
if i say that you are the hardest working person on the planet, will you use the free time acquired by not having to prove it to relax and not take yourself too seriously?
The irony was subtle … very subtle. I guess I get tired of people saying things like that and meaning it. Hard to tell when they’re joking. Sorry.
I’ve seen studies showing that teachers work harder over the summer than coal miners do for the entire year.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
when in doubt, i’m making a joke – and i try never to get personal. for what it’s worth, i’ve got around half a dozen close family and friends with careers in upper academia. they range from each end of the spectrum and everywhere in-between on this. the one with tenure is the most “all vacation all the time”-like.
Having worked with a lot of scientists in academia, I have no doubt that this is true. Those that don’t put in long hours to do the research, secure funding and write papers — all inter-related tasks — can’t survive long enough to get tenure.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
the four straight starts on short rest
That’s why I think it’s lame: you can’t even judge this postseason outing for C.C.
by JulioBernazard on Oct 5, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you dense?
It’s a highly unusual circumstance. Find one other pitcher who has pitched on three days’ rest in four straight games — at any point in the season — in the past 25 years. I doubt there is one.
by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what I really like about C.C.? The way he looks when things aren’t going well: taking off his hat, mopping his head, shoulders slumped, the pained expression.
I was reminded of this Statler and Waldorf bit regarding CC’s playoff performances:
Waldorf: Another star in the tradition of the late great Boris Klinger.
Statler: Boris Klinger? Why you old fool! Boris Klinger was the worst music hall act to ever step onto the stage!
Waldorf: In your opinion maybe, but more than 2,000 people attended his final performance.
Statler: Yes, yes. Half of them brought the tar and the rest brought the feathers!
-Erik
No one could wear that pained expression like Wickman. Even when he was doing well he had it on, that takes dedication.
Yeah, that’s for sure. He always looked like he had to dig his house out from under a rock slide, with his wife and kids stuck inside.
by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just as a vague opinion, I’m not sure CC Sabathia is ever going to be very good again. Since 1995, which seemed like a decent cut-off for “extreme modern era re: pitchers” only a few guys have gone over 240 IP in back to back seasons:
Sabathia (2007-2008)
Livan Hernandez (04-05)
Randy Johnson (98-99-00-01-02)
Schilling (97-98, 01-02)
Kevin Brown (98-99)
Pat Hentgen (96-97)
I don’t think I missed any. What’s fascinating to me about this list is that only two of these guys completed either season while he was still under 30: Pat Hentgen, who did it in 27-28 and Livan, 29-30.
None of that is to say Hentgen is a particularly good CC comp. I just don’t like the smell of this whole thing-CC’s pitch counts have been so, so high, the short rest and the extra playoff work, both years, the whole thing.
The other thing I’ve noticed is that Randy Johnson might be the best pitcher of all time.
Since 1961 there have been 19 such seasons for a starter (ERA 180+ and over 240 IP). No one else has more than one.
He also kills birds. Can’t measure that with numbers.
He also did that between the ages of 35 and 38. I can’t believe he doesn’t have 300 wins yet.
Steel Nick
I find it interesting that he seems to get a free pass for his performance as he got older, whereas Bonds and Clemens both came under immediate scrutiny. Don’t Johnson’s numbers leave him just as open for accusations?
There’s never been smoke.
Plus, the seasons in question here are his 34-38 seasons and he’s only had one really good season since. For reference, that’s Roger’s last two years in Toronto and first few in NYY. I don’t recall much suspicion of him at that point.
The reason Bonds came under so much scrutiny so quickly late in his career is pretty obvious-his body.
Randy Johnson’s 99-02 is as good as any pitcher’s best four-season stretch in the history of the game, including Sandy Koufax.
Having said that, Greg Maddux’s 92-98 is probably the best seven-season stretch of all time. Keep in mind, when you look at it, that 1994 and 1995 were strike-shortened, so while he only pitched 202 and 209.2 innings those seasons, he was on pace for about 280 and 240.
by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey Tribe fans, we need clarification.
Thanks for renting us the big guy. I loved every minute of him.
jeff: but i shudder to think of the bullpen analogy to sending the runner
If you don’t click on the link, this is the comment battlekow is referring to:
Shocking…
… to know that he was fairly disliked by the fans of Cleveland and in the locker room. Hard to reconcile that in your head with the guy we’ve seen be nothing but gracious, classy and hardworking here.
This is way off base. No one in the clubhouse has ever had a negative thing to say about CC— quite the opposite, as far as I know.
As for the fans, I’d say the majority of people have a huge soft spot for him. Those that don’t owe a lot of that to his departure. But the line “was fairly disliked by the fans of Cleveland” seems to imply (at least how I read it) that he was ill-received during his tenure as an Indians. Not at all. Not one bit, as far as I know. Some soured during the contract negoitaions, but nowhere near a majority.
Steel Nick
actually, never as much as i should have. i don’t know why. but i’d lie down in traffic for fausto if given the chance, but never became enamored by cc. loved the dude when he was on, but was frustrated by him when he wasn’t – enough to never trully love him unconditionally. whereas fausto stunk it up for much of this year and only has one year of resume but i give him a pass. i have no rationalization for any of the above and none of it is germane to cc’s leaving (impending before or since). just some gut instinct. some guys like tall blondes. i like power sinker ballers with messed up choppers.
[H]e certainly added lots of zeros to his potential pay day after Cleveland traded him to Milwaukee for four prospects on July 7.
Yes, Sabathia will now get a contract for 100 trillion dollars paid out over the next 600 years.
by Logodaedalus on Oct 7, 2008 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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