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Around SBN: Steve McNair Found Shot to Death


Brantley it is.

Apparently, the decision on the PTBNL has been made.

Link 9 months ago Tiny CBusSteve Comment 222 comments 0 recs |

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+1! :-)

Welcome aboard Brantley, and do well!

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 5, 2008 8:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Comment from the article:

Brewers should have put a clause in the trade contract that stated if you walk a pitcher in the playoffs with two outs and then eventually give up a granny the Brewers get to keep everyone.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 12:58 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good to see that their commenters are as enlightened as those on cleveland.com. Another one I enjoyed:

"AWFUL TRADE, AND I SAID IT FROM DAY 1 UNLIKE YOU DUMB HAYSEEDS. I CALLED THIS ONE.

SABATHIA WAS A MAJOR DISAPPOINTMENT."

Looks like they like to use the ol’ caps lock key as well

by millionairesrow on Oct 3, 2008 1:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If this guy thinks Sabathia was a “major disappointment” for the Brewers, then his expectations were way, way, way too high.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 3, 2008 5:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Story up on BP today suggests that in terms of immediate payoff, Sabathia is tied for the most successful mid-season acquisition in the history of the game.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ll believe that.

by Voltaire on Oct 5, 2008 1:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who is he tied with?

by pandroid on Oct 5, 2008 9:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Braves acquire 2B Red Schoendienst from the New York Giants for INF Danny O’Connell, RHP Ray Crone, and OF Bobby Thomson, June 15, 1957.

Red apparently was the Brian Roberts of his day, not necessarily the best hitter or defender among second basemen, but probably the best all-around player at the position. (Okay, that would actually be Chase Utley, but don’t worry about that.)

A close 3rd is the Cardinals getting Lou Brock and two other guys in 1964. Teixeira (this year) and Manny also make the top 10, and almost all of the top 15 spots are from the past 20 years, many from the past five years.

Full article.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 12:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

seriously … wtf

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 3, 2008 6:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow, that was even dumber than some of the stuff I’ve said in here.

MLB2PDX!!! (someday...)

by The Cactus Leaguer on Oct 4, 2008 2:10 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No Indians fan would sign a clause like that. You’d be nuts, because you’d know there was at least a 6-5 chance of that happening.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 1:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to be pedantic, but I’d take that clause, given that what Sabathia did has only happened once before in baseball history, in Game 1 of the 1988 World Series when Dave Stewart walked and scored on a Jose Canseco two-out GS (off Tim Belcher). The Dodgers, of course, won that game on the Kirk Gibson homer.

by FredOx on Oct 3, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Random fact: Tim Belcher attended the high school where I teach. He still lives in the district and his kids go to school there (in elementary school), and his sister-in-law is an English teacher at my school.

He is an instructor for the Indians at spring training (and I think he does some advance scouting for them). When he was down there this spring, his sister-in-law told him about my accident and that I was a big Indians fan, so he got the whole team to sign a T-shirt for me. It’s pretty cool.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 3, 2008 5:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You somehow forgot to show this to me when I was in town last month.

by Cols714 on Oct 3, 2008 5:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uhh, sorry, I forgot. I also got a big ESPN banner (like the ones they hang at games) signed by a lot of their anchors and hosts. It’s from John Seibel, who hosts the SportsNation radio show. His wife went to high school with my wife, and when they came to visit me after my accident he brought that as a gift. It’s huge.

You know, sometimes it pays to get in a near-fatal car accident. (Emphasis on the sometimes.)

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 4, 2008 10:36 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d also emphasize the near.

by CBusSteve on Oct 4, 2008 12:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Excellant point.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 4, 2008 12:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

MOAC pride. Did you know that Ben Curtis was a Buckeye Valley Baron?

by ClarkM on Oct 5, 2008 5:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, I did not. I knew nothing of Highland (or any other MOAC school) until I started teaching there 5 years ago. Where did you go to school?

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 5, 2008 6:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ridgedale. It’s in Marion County.

by ClarkM on Oct 5, 2008 6:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I will add here that I spent my junior high school and first two years of high school attending Cardington schools before moving back to greater Cleveland. It was mighty disheartening and lonely being an Indians fan in Morrow County during the Big Red Machine Era. Though, my 8th grade year, Cardington won the state championship in baseball, winning two 1-0 games in the state final four, two of the most amazing baseball games I’ve ever seen.

by woodsmeister on Oct 6, 2008 9:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most people at my school are Indians fans now. There are a few kids that wear Reds gear, but I see mostly Indians stuff. And most of the teachers here that are sports fans follow the Indians. I’m sure their sucess in the 90’s got a lot of fans in central Ohio to follow the Tribe.

Also, most of the baseball fans that I met at Ohio State were Indians fans. (Of course, most of them were from northern Ohio — I didn’t really know many “natives” from Columbus.)

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 6, 2008 10:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t think that’s pedantry. But I was being sarcastic. C.C. walking a pitcher in the postseason—it would make me somewhat nervous to sign that clause, but the likelihood of it happening is off the charts.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 9:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting. That article mentions a list of 4 players

by Roger Dorn on Oct 3, 2008 1:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I had to guess I’d say Lucroy and Cain.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 1:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder if we didn’t fleece Carlos Santana from the Dodgers, if Lucroy would have been more in play

by Roger Dorn on Oct 3, 2008 1:06 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He appeared in 62 games in center field and 21 games in left field and first base.

That has to be the oddest skill set for a first baseman I’ve seen in quite some time.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 1:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1st base? wow, you’re right, his skill set doesn’t quite fit as a first baseman, at least in our organization…

One of these days... bang, zoom, straight to the moon...

by mixmasterasia on Oct 3, 2008 1:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And the comments there are as enlightened as ever!

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 3, 2008 3:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s been said before, but from AA down we suddenly have a nice-looking list of hitters that profile to contribute in the major leagues.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 3, 2008 1:09 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d probably put our hitters down like this:

Laporta
Santana (although I wouldn’t be surprised for a little return to reality next year)
Weglarz
Mills
Brantley

by APV on Oct 3, 2008 1:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and yes…this is probably the most exciting group of hitters we have had coming through since right that 2002 season when we added a lot of talent to the system

by APV on Oct 3, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s pretty amazing if Mills is indeed our fourth best hitting prospect. Guy was absolutely on fire the second half

by Roger Dorn on Oct 3, 2008 1:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wegz gets the edge just because of his age. Mills was probably the better hitter this year.

by APV on Oct 3, 2008 2:08 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Where does this put Crowe?

by millionairesrow on Oct 3, 2008 1:35 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

on the DL again next year…

One of these days... bang, zoom, straight to the moon...

by mixmasterasia on Oct 3, 2008 1:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Michael Brantley = Same skill set and stats at AA, just 3 1/2 years younger than Crowe.

by JesseAK on Oct 3, 2008 1:48 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So there was a reason to root for the Brewers. Luckily we have the Mets.

by oxforddave on Oct 3, 2008 2:04 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’ll be interesting to see where Cleveland decides to start Brantley next year. Given he was a little banged up this year and he’s young, I’d expect Akron. But he’s already spent a season and a half at AA, so maybe he’ll be slotted with Crowe into Columbus’ outfield.

by APV on Oct 3, 2008 2:18 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here are Brantley’s career stats

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=Michael%20Brantley&pos=LF&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488726

Also, he could pass as Kellen Winslow Jr.’s twin brother

by millionairesrow on Oct 3, 2008 2:53 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’s from just outside Seattle, too, so let’s hope there’s a relationship to Grady!!

by peter m on Oct 3, 2008 3:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, he does look like K2. Hope he stays away from motorcycles.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 3, 2008 5:33 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Oh good, we need more soldiers on this team.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 4, 2008 12:12 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He is considered a leadoff-type hitter (.395 OBP) with little or no power but good speed and strong defensive skills.

So that means that Grady will have to move down in the order….

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 3, 2008 3:32 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Strong defensive skills? He must have improved in 2008 because BAs Prospect Book indicated he was limited to LF.

by kov on Oct 3, 2008 4:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I could see his speed making him a better defender when he learned to read the ball better. But someone on the comment sections of the Milwaukee Journal report (note: I am aware this is a random comment) said they saw him in action and his arm looks pretty good. That would be an odd thing to suddenly “develop.”

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 4, 2008 12:13 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Who needs to draft well when you can pick off other GMs trading away your upcoming free agents?

by Roger Dorn on Oct 3, 2008 3:34 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know he’s not a power hitter but 27 SO’s in 420 AB’s gets me all sorts of hot and bothered.

by Joe. on Oct 3, 2008 4:23 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shap has some quotes in the official article now. Brantley will start in Columbus and will be with the team in spring training. Expects his power to develop as he ages given his 6’2 frame

by Roger Dorn on Oct 3, 2008 4:46 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like everything about this. He’s pretty much proven he’s ready for AAA based on his SO/BB ratio alone. I like the fact that they are being a little more aggressive. Both he and Laporta should be in AAA (unless Laporta can win a job in spring training…..oh one can dream)

by hans on Oct 3, 2008 5:02 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was hoping that Laporta would be the starting 1b next year, assuming they trade Shoppach and Martinez was the full time catcher. It doesn’t seem to make sense anymore to move LaPorta to the OF when he is a good 1B and they are starting to build some OF depth with Shoo, Francisco, Gutz, and now Brantley.

by Cols714 on Oct 3, 2008 5:09 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If you judge by previous history, it would take a hell of spring training for LaPorta to outright win the job. Although, with Garks spending a few months in the dog house, maybe things have changed.

by Toxicadam on Oct 3, 2008 5:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I know. But Garko was so bad for most of last year that I think Laporta could out hit him next year.

by Cols714 on Oct 3, 2008 5:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello Cols714,

In Garko’s defense, he did rebound in the last month or so of the season.

Moreover, however, it’s likely LaPorta will start at AAA to begin 2008. Recall Adam Miller’s excellent 2007 Spring Training, yet he didn’t make the ballclub. Granted, Miller had an arm/shoulder issue in 2006, but recall that LaPorta struggled a bit coming over to Cleveland, likely due to all the happenings occurring in his life (grandfather’s funeral, he and his girlfriend finding a home, the Olympics, the beaning in the Olympics, etc.).

Besides, it won’t hurt him to spend a half-season or so in AAA, a level he hasn’t experienced yet. With the depth of 1B we have now in the system, I’ll be surprised if Garko/Martinez doesn’t start the season at 1B next year. The only way I see Garko NOT being a part of that pair is if Garko gets traded for something OTHER than a 1B (we need to keep it open for Laporta/Mills/even Weglarz, who was originally a 1B coming up through the system, though of course, only one of the three can be the Indians future 1B).

Presuming Martinez spends time there next season, I’m not sure they’ll trade Shoppach unless a great offer comes along – Shoppach will keep Martinez fresh, and hopefully, healthy to allow him to have a big year, which will be very helpful to the offense, especially if Hafner doesn’t find his old form (and that’s something I’m not confident in at this point).

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 5, 2008 8:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello again,

I meant to add that LaPorta would have to excel at the level Miller had in 2007 ST for the Indians to even consider LaPorta making the club out of Spring Training, along with injuries to Garko, Martinez, and/or both. In other words, LaPorta’s chances of making the club out of ST are probably less than 1%.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 5, 2008 8:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree. And I think you’re right that Garko will either be traded or will be one of our first baseman at the beginning of the year next year.

by peter m on Oct 5, 2008 9:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well Laporta remains more valuable if he can play the outfield. And I think we should all avoid counting these chickens before the eggs hatch

by hans on Oct 3, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yo guys by the way, it appears that Laporta is playing in the Venezuelan Winter League with the Caracas Lions( Leones del Caracas), i have the link to the official Caracas Lions Website but it is in spanish so i guess it wont be so helpful….. hopefully ill go to some games this winter and see him play over here…

http://www.leones.com/detalle_noticia.php?id=240

by luifer5 on Oct 3, 2008 5:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why does everyone insist on plugging in LaPorta at 1b? The guy can play LF. What are you planning on doing with Mills?

by Joe. on Oct 3, 2008 6:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Brantley?

And Weglarz?

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 8:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jay is right. We have four guys who can probably only play three positions: LF,1B, and DH. That’s assuming they can outplay the veterans who occupy those positions now. None of these four appear to be outstanding defensively, so it may not matter if LaPorta is LF, 1B or DH.

by kov on Oct 3, 2008 9:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look, I’m not saying under no circumstances should we play LaPorta at 1b. I’m just curious as to why we’re in suhc a hurry to move him there.

by Joe. on Oct 3, 2008 9:13 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assume everyone’s in a rush because they believe we have a hole at 1B. Sure we can have Vic play there with Shoppach to catch, but if LaPorta win a starting spot at 1B we could trade Shoppach.

Personally, I’d rather see what value we can get for Shoppach on the trade market before we move Vic to 1B. I doubt Shoppach will ever have more value than he does right now, and I think everyone is overreacting to Vic’s injury, (Those saying he won’t be able to handle catching a full season anymore. )

Though I do see some logic in the argument that Vic’s batting ability might get better if he were a 1B rather than a catcher.

As for LaPorta, the obvious solution, IMO is to have LaPorta play both LF and 1B. The more flexibility the better. It probably wouldn’t bother LaPorta too much since he played 1B in college.

by world dictator on Oct 3, 2008 9:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

See that’s reasonable. I just don’t want him permanently moving to 1b. Also, I agree with you on Shoppach in that his value will never be higher. We need to trade him assuming we get decent offers for him.

by Joe. on Oct 3, 2008 9:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t know why you’d ever limit a player to one position when they can plausibly play multiple positions.

by world dictator on Oct 3, 2008 9:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

First, LaPorta isn’t going to win a starting spot.

Second, we’re not going to wait for him to “win” a spot — and only THEN trade Shoppach. Makes no sense. Trading or keeping Shoppach is a strategic decision that needs to be made under the assumption that we’re not getting a starting 1B from the minors to start the season.

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 2:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LaPorta is the fastest mover of those guys. Obviously if they all pan out moves are going to be made but I don’t see the point in lowering LaPorta’s value when we have a similar player who can play 1b in one or two years. If Weglarz pans out and Choo keeps hitting, or Brantley emerges, then you can talk about DHing Mills or LaPorta and putting the other at 1b. But I don’t see the rush to put LaPorta at a position that would lower his value to the team (or to potential suitors if somehow all these guys end up panning out).

by Joe. on Oct 3, 2008 9:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wouldn’t assume LaPorta will move the fastest, although he probably will.

Younger guys often jump past older guys, because they are developing more rapidly. LaPorta will be 24 soon, he’s not a young prospect.

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 2:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So listened to the full Shap conference. Most interesting part was that Shapiro indicated the contingency option was a gentleman’s agreement and not part of the league’s standard procedure.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 3, 2008 7:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That was in response to a question by Hoynes, and in all honesty i think i had a little bit of an impact on the aggressiveness Paul showed, using the word “precedent.” I wrote Hoynesie earlier in the week saying that I didn’t believe that could be the case (that the choice was based on if the Brewers made the playoff). Here was my email:

I’m calling you out. There’s no way that the team who chooses the player to be named later in the CC deal is based on whether or not the Brewers made the playoffs. There is no precedent for this type of deal in baseball, and Shapiro and Antonetti are way too intelligent to let “a major piece of the trade” be subject to the whims of another GM and the performance of 24 players that have nothing to do with the Indians.

Now, I admit I don’t know if there is a precedent,

by kwoog on Oct 3, 2008 8:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

(whoops, didn’t mean to post. to continue)

just that I’ve never heard of one. Regardless precedent, I think my point about lacking control over a “major piece” is valid. Thus, I considered the news of this “gentlemen’s agreement” interesting/surprising as well… it seems very (too?) generous of Shapiro (the Brewers paid for CC’s services, and they got them. If the Mets don’t tank, why should our value in turn be any less?).

I doubt Kenny Williams would ever agree to something like this. (I am not saying I think KW is half the GM Mark is… I’m a huge Shapiro fan… I guess I’m just surprised/disappointed that he’d deviate from pure value driven decision making… into an almost derivative/option deal… but I’m no economist, so perhaps I’m way off base).

by kwoog on Oct 3, 2008 8:35 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

btw, hoynes did write me back, simply saying “why would i write something that I know wasn’t true?”

by kwoog on Oct 3, 2008 8:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thing is, I can see Shapiro and Melvin coming to this to resolve an impasse.

If it wasn’t an official part of the deal, though, Melvin would have had to rely on Shapiro’s good faith — the deal language would have had to let him be the one doing the picking.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 8:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What could the impasse be that is resolved by this aspect of the deal? My problem is only that this is way too generous to the Brewers.

I’m trying to think of an example:

1) Mark says he wants LaPorta and Brantley. Doug says that’s too much. Shapiro says that’s what it will take. Doug says if he does that and doesn’t make the post season it will ruin them (both b/c of the lack of postseason dollars and the crappiness of the trade). It’s at this point that I’d expect Shapiro to say, “what’s that go to do with me?” instead of, “okay, here’s your safety net: if you don’t make the post season we’ll take Green”)

2) Doug offers LaPorta and Green. Mark is enticed, but reluctant to deal CC a month before the deadline for only this. Doug tells him this is probably as good of a deal as you’re going to get. Mark still hesitates. Melvin, worried that he’ll lose CC, says, “okay, we’ll make it Brantley, but only if we get to the post season”, giving Mark a guy he never thought he could get… ?

Eh, it’s pure conjecture…

by kwoog on Oct 3, 2008 9:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The answer to your question is simple.

I read that the player the Melvin wanted to send was Taylor Green (3B, A). If you’re Mark Shapiro you probably like both players. Brantley more than Green obviously, but they’re both prospects you wouldn’t mind having.

So why risk losing an otherwise great package over getting an – A, rather than an A prospect?

Besides, don’t assume that Shaps agreement was a bad thing. Melvin might have easily said:

“There’s no way in hell im giving you Brantley. Its Green or nothing.” To which Shap might have replied, "Fair enough I’ll settle for Green. But hey I’ll tell you what. If you make the playoffs, for the first time in 20+ years, I think its more than fair to upgrade the trade package with Brantley

by world dictator on Oct 3, 2008 9:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That is how I see it. Melvin was willing to walk away over giving up Brantley on top of Green — which just shows that they really are not quite in the same class as prospects — and Shapiro got him to go along with it under this condition.

Or maybe it was a give-back in order to wedge Bryson into the deal instead of someone with less upside. Who knows?

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 2:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just realized that our second paragraphs are similar. (Though my framing of the argument is better for Shap)

I’m not sure why you think this is “generous” on Shaprio’s part. The bottomline seemed to be that LaPorta, Bryson, Jackson, and Green/with the possibility of Brantley, was better than any trade being discussed (in Shapiro’s eyes).

if this is the case, it seems like a no agreement to me.

by world dictator on Oct 3, 2008 9:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it’s amazing how stupid the misspelling ‘Shaprio’ looks.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 3, 2008 10:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Brewers general manager Doug Melvin confirmed that the choice for the final player came down to Brantley and third baseman Taylor Green, who was at Class A Brevard County this season. The Indians got to make the choice because the Brewers made the postseason. Had the Brewers not advanced, they would have made the pick.

Melvin admitted such a contingency is rare.

“Cleveland liked both players, and so did we,” Melvin said. “That’s why we couldn’t come to an agreement. The problem was both players got hurt. They hardly got to see any of them play.”

by world dictator on Oct 3, 2008 10:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not to mention, I thought I remembered Antonetti saying the PTBNL status of the fourth guy was specifically part of the value for the Indians in the deal… in the sense the extra couple of months they got to pick the right guy was valuable for the Indians (in exchange for the Brewers getting a month’s more starts out of CC). Does anyone else remember them making this argument?

by kwoog on Oct 3, 2008 9:14 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes, and also that Hoynes recently speculated that what was delaying the announcement was medical clearance on the players—as both Brantley and Green had been injured much of the season.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 9:42 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shapiro, while announcing the deal:

“The player to be named component is a very important part of the value equation for us … I know it’s hard to get your arms around it when you see that PTBNL in there, but that’s an advantage for us that we negotiated, to give us a little more time … we’d probably have gone in a different direction if that player wasn’t included.”

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 2:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

gone in a different direction if the player or the PTBNL status wasn’t included? of course they don’t do the deal w/out two major league caliber prospects, that seemed to be the starting point of negotiations for a Cy Young.

he says, “when you see that PTBNL in there, but that’s an advatntage for us that we negotiated, to give us a little more time”, and i read that as i described above. i didn’t read that as 1/2 advantage for us (scout more), but also 1/2 advantage for the Brewers (insurance in case they tank). CC was traded on July 7, I think, and I’m sick of searching for what the cool standings or BP odds were that day (help?), but they were no shoe-in, that’s for sure…

by kwoog on Oct 4, 2008 3:10 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Brewers’ Playoff Chances as of July 7th
CoolStandings: 22.1% for the Division, 30.1% Wild Card, Total of 52.1%
BP’s PECOTA: 15.11971% Division 43.84038% WC 58.96009% Playoffs

"...leading the league in most offensive categories. Including nose hairs."

by sarcasmdave on Oct 4, 2008 3:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The deal was finalized late afternoon on Sunday, July 6, so most of the games that day were already done or nearly done. The Brewers completed a three-game sweep that day, and at the end of the day, these were the top NL teams:

NL      W   L    GB      WP      RS      RA
CHC    53  36     -    .596     475     373
STL    50  40   3.5    .556     415     399
MIL    49  39   3.5    .557     406     395
PHI    48  41   5.0    .539     448     370
FLA    45  43   7.5    .511     439     460
NYM    44  44   8.5    .500     419     408
ARI    44  45   9.0    .494     393     390
LAD    43  45   9.5    .489     365     356

So the Cardinals and Brewers were tied for second in the Central, 3.5 games back, but the were also tied for the Wild Card, and the next closest club was the Marlins, four games behind them. Also note, every NL West team was under .500, unlikely to be a factor.

Adding Sabathia was viewed as a serious challenge to the Cubs, and the Cardinals were seen as a miracle to have made it even this far, unlikely to be able to sustain, and lacking the prospects to keep up by making a comparable trade.

The playoff odds need to be seen in context. The Brewers showed only a 55 to 60% chance of making the playoffs, but the odds don’t “know” that Sabathia is about to be added to the club. They were projected to win 89 games at that point, even without Sabathia, and they actually won 90 with him.

What that means is that Sabathia boosted their playoff push by 4-5 games, and the rest of the club underperformed by 3-4 games. Having added Sabathia, the Brewers correctly would have been projected to win 92 games, making them a solid favorite for a playoff spot, even if certainly not a lock.

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 4:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The perception that Kenny Williams isn’t a good GM is a dated and incorrect one.

by ClarkM on Oct 6, 2008 6:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’s got his good points, but also definitely his bad points.

In some ways, he deserves to be treated as harshly as Cashman, as he’s working with a huge payroll relative to his division.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:17 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree, payroll is such a huge factor when evaluating Gms, and Kenny’s success can’t be viewed without this. Who would you say has the better reputation amongst fans around these parts, Dave Dombrowski or Kenny Williams? My impression is that DD has a much better reputation, now look at their payrolls over the last few years or so:

CHA: 121, 108, 102, 75
DET: 137, 95, 82, 69

Now this doesn’t really prove anything, but let’s say there is 10 bad GMs, 10 average, and 10 good ones, I think he’s probably toward the bottom of the top ten. The guy has pretty solid credentials. He after started off with mediocre teams, won a WS, had a 90 win team miss the playoffs, a 72 win team, and a 89 win ALDS loser. During the successful periods, he had the first or second biggest payroll in the division and the fourth or fifth biggest payroll in the league. The White Sox payroll was substantially bigger than the other three teams in the Central during that time period, but factor in that two of those teams are extremely well run organizations.

by ClarkM on Oct 7, 2008 12:23 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He appears to be an idiot savant. Good moves: Quentin, Danks, Alexei. But plenty of bad or oddball moves: Griffey, 2007’s power bullpen,

Remember Mike Sirotka? He snookered Gord Ash, and after that I was surprised anyone would do business with him. He does have a large payroll, and can piss away a lot of money on guys who don’t work out. But he has made some smart moves.

by odradek on Oct 6, 2008 11:51 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

How is trading two AAAA players for two months of Griffey a counterpoint to acquiring John Danks for Brandon McCarthy? Also factor in that one of those AAAA players was a throw in from the Danks deal.

by ClarkM on Oct 7, 2008 12:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not saying Griffey equals Danks, but I think Williams’ inability to get a real centerfielder—and his insistence at times to make a trade for its own sake (as with Griffey)—is a distinct negative.

by odradek on Oct 7, 2008 12:32 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This has to be a good omen of sorts, no?

Michael Brantley 24 | CF

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Oct 3, 2008 6:40 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

off-topic

Sorry for hijacking this thread. I haven’t posted on LGT before, but have on minorleagueball.com quite a few times. But I’m not sure what the protocol is for this, sorry in advance.

Am I not seeing it, or has nobody mentioned on LGT that Luis Isaac got fired last week?

http://www.cleveland.com/livingston/index.ssf/2008/10/between_the_lines_readers_resp.html

Apparently he was hanging out at home (Puerto Rico?) and Wedge called him and said “thanks for 44 years. Good luck next year wherever you go, it’s not with us.”

by lenred on Oct 3, 2008 7:58 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Check the FanShots section, we discussed it.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 8:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know Livingston has been raising a stink about this, and frankly, his comments have been irresponsible and dumb.

I won’t comment on the Indians’ reasons for firing him, except to say that our bullpen has been week to awful for five out of the last six seasons. This may not be his fault, but obviously they feel they need a different presence in the bullpen to improve in this area. Either that, or he did something more serious that they’re just not going to discuss publicly.

But the criticism of the timing and manner of the firing is even more dumb. If the guy has gone home to Puerto Rico, then they can’t fire him in person except by flying there. Are people really saying you have to fly to Puerto Rico to fire your bullpen coach? We also don’t know what discussions they may have had prior to actually firing him.

You could argue that they could have waited until later to actually fire him — perhaps he’d be back in Cleveland at some point, or perhaps Wedge could have flown down there. This argument is even dumber. The best thing for Isaac is to find new employment, and the best way to help him do that is to fire him right at the start of the offseason, so other teams will know he’s available before they start to fill spots for 2009.

I have no idea if you are taking issue with these things, but I just thought I’d comment on the BS controversy that has been stirred up around this.

by Jay on Oct 3, 2008 8:52 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I assume you’re only counting 2005 and not 2007, but why?

by Joe. on Oct 3, 2008 9:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Because outside of the two Rafaels, and Jensen for the last two weeks, the bullpen last season actually was pretty awful. It’s just that those three guys were lights-out, and Wedge managed the pen pretty deftly.

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 2:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

two months, right?

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Oct 4, 2008 3:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I agree about the so-called controversy, but I disagree how it was handled. After 44 years, somebody should have flown down and told him in person. It wouldn’t have to be Wedge, but someone.

by odradek on Oct 3, 2008 9:46 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Have you seen gas prices lately?

by Toxicadam on Oct 3, 2008 10:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Isn’t it more offensive for somebody else to go? I mean, if it’s not Wedge then it’s obviously not Shap or Ant, so who draws the short stick? Just some guy from HR? That would be viewed at least as incredulously, in the world where you have to fire people in person. It would be portrayed as either some “suit” or some “flunkie” doing the dirty work.

I love when people get upset for other people, like Livingston here. Is Luis Isaac really upset? How can he be? Does he not follow any sports?

by afh4 on Oct 4, 2008 12:14 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, we don’t know how much of that conversation they actually had before he left — e.g., talking to him about being reassigned, and possibly his lack of interest. This whole thing could be overblown — as Andrew points out, is Isaac actually complaining, or is this just a lot of whiny conjecture?

by Jay on Oct 4, 2008 2:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It pains me that Cleveland fans get their “news” from Livingston. When the best argument advocating a position is “it’s always been that way,” you’ve already lost the argument.

by xrickx on Oct 3, 2008 10:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was almost shocked that Livingston would right an article like that. Almost.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 4, 2008 12:20 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be fair to Livingston—which I am not wont to be—Hoynes was remarkably critical in his latest PD chat of the Indians’ handling of Isaac.

by odradek on Oct 4, 2008 12:29 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t see why they flip out like that. To the casual observer it almost seems obvious that there are details we are not aware of. Either they tried to reassign him and he refused or he put the organization in some kind of bind. Immediately those were my first thoughts.

Is there any indication the press has even asked the FO any of those questions? I’m sure all they’d get is a “no comment,” but I wouldn’t put it past these guys to not even bother and just go on spitting bile.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 4, 2008 12:42 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, I agree with you that there was obviously something going on. I guess Isaac is a likable guy, and Bill and Paul liked him, but I can’t believe their harshness. But maybe they know something we don’t know.

by odradek on Oct 4, 2008 12:57 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Problem is, they’re “journalists,” though I’m being generous with the term. If they know something, why not put it in print? This isn’t like hiding FDR’s polio, and Livingston and Hoynes don’t strike me as gentlemen, judging by their writing.

by ManchildinBeantown on Oct 4, 2008 1:01 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Um, I meant “hiding the disability that was a result of FDR’s childhood polio.” Yeah.

Not that it matters, in context of the conversation.

Kelly Kelly Kelly Kelly...

by ManchildinBeantown on Oct 4, 2008 3:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here’s how they could know something they wouldn’t want to print: Maybe the reporters know that Mr. Wedge suspects that Mr. Isaac is having an affair with Mrs. Wedge, because they overheard Mr. Wedge talking about it with Joel Skinner. They know that Mr. Wedge fired Mr. Isaac merely because of his suspicion of this affair. But the reporters know that Mr. Isaac is innocent, because they were out with him buying drugs on the night the affair was supposed to have commenced.

So are they supposed to write all this, and harm the reputation of Mrs. Wedge and Mr. Isaac?

by odradek on Oct 4, 2008 10:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That all depends on whether it’s considered newsworthy.

by Jay on Oct 5, 2008 1:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Journalists sometimes have to sit on newsworthy stuff. Sometimes they can’t report on it because it’s actionable, sometimes because it would hurt someone unnecessarily, sometimes for personal reasons.

by odradek on Oct 5, 2008 4:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actionable?

Meaning what?

This isn’t Inside Man.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 12:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I liked that movie. And I’m excited about seeing Miracle at St Anna. Has anyone seen it (that wants to comment without spoilers)?

by NickFantana on Oct 6, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

They all die. Vader is Luke’s father. He’s dead the whole time; the little boy sees him.

Haven’t seen it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 6, 2008 2:34 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rosebud is a sled?

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 6, 2008 5:31 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Shadow breaks his leg but eventually makes it back home.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 6, 2008 10:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There’s a well-placed prop, but otherwise Kate Winslett is 100% nude.

by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2008 11:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The dead soldier’s girlfriend? Has a penis.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:18 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

By actionable I mean libelous, or potentially so.

by odradek on Oct 6, 2008 10:39 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Potentially so? No such thing. Libel requires proof that the writer knew it wasn’t true and intended harm, an extremely high standard. If the writer has reason to believe it’s true, he can go ahead and print it with basically zero risk of legal reprisal.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nope. Not true. Or more properly, it’s theoretically true but not practically so. Legal reprisal in the form of a lawsuit—even one where the writer will ultimately win—is enough to have publications pull their punches. Getting sued can cost you a lot of money to defend yourself. Lots of publications will back off from stuff that might get them in trouble. Writers know this and try to pick their battles.

by odradek on Oct 7, 2008 12:39 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This is assuming the subject of the article has the resources and motivation to take action. That basically requires a celebrity with even more money than Wedge and very bad legal and PR advice — a guy like Roger Clemens, basically. From a purely practical standpoint, libel is something close to a non-concern for any conscientious writer.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 4:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Conscientious writers tend to refrain from potentially libelous comments—calling someone a drunk, or a drug-dealer, say—unless there is a compelling reason to include them.

by odradek on Oct 7, 2008 5:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course. But reporting is about relevance and the public interest, not discretion.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 8:49 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In the ideal world, sure. In this case, I wouldn’t see any valid public interest in why Isaacs was fired, and discretion would win over relevance.

by odradek on Oct 7, 2008 9:47 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I weep for the state of reporting in the world.

Discretion and relevance are not in competition when it comes to reporting. It is all about relevance, and discretion only comes into the picture when the information is irrelevant.

The job of the reporter is to report. It isn’t like being a prosecutor, where you’re supposed to have prosecutorial discretion. You get the facts out there and let the public weigh them.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 10:59 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Again, Jay, maybe in an ideal world. But from what I’ve read of the old days—Gene Fowler, Joseph Mitchell, Ben Hecht, Charles MacArthur—reporters always had to use discretion. The best ones got a lot of scoops because they were known for their discretion. They were known as standup guys who could keep their mouths shut. Nobody would last long in a newspaper reporting everything. I don’t think it’s ever been that way, practically speaking.

by odradek on Oct 8, 2008 12:16 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually no.

With a public figure under NYT v. Sullivan, the subject must prove publication with “actual malice” – that the statement was known to be false or was made with “reckless disregard” of its falsity.

With a non-public figure, it is a negligence standard, that the statement was made without due care in the situation.

Wedge and Shapiro are clearly public figures when it comes to baseball, Isaac is a much closer call. Either way, it doesn’t require an evil minded intent to defame to make it actionable.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 7, 2008 10:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

First, Isaac absolutely would be considered a public figure.

Second, the negligence standard still requires that the writer knew it was false or had no credible reason to believe it was true. If the writer has it on the record from a source in the position to know, and with no obvious motivation to lie, then he beats negligence.

Ask a real lawyer, libel cases are rare and winning libel cases are almost unheard-of.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 4:25 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you saying I’m not a real lawyer? If so, I think you’ve defamed me.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 7, 2008 4:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which, since it relates to my professional standing, is defamation per se, which dovetails neatly into our discussion of the use of Latin.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 7, 2008 4:43 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don’t be ashamed, George Brett apparently does it all the time.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 7, 2008 4:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Wait, Wedge is married? Does Casey know about this?

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 6, 2008 5:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Of course he knows, who do you think we’re talking about here?

Mrs. Wedge = Casey

Duh.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Mrs. Wedge? Has a penis.

by odradek on Oct 7, 2008 12:44 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Terry Pluto is also critical of the Indians for the way they handled Isaac. It doesn’t sound like any of them know the whole story (if there is one), but the PD reporters are unanimously down on the way this was done. I imagine they’ve all had a long relationship with Isaac, so that may be partly why; they’re veteran sportswriters who’ve known Isaac (and got along with him) for many years. Kind of like when the guy in the next office, who’s been there since forever, gets let go and escorted from the building. Nobody likes to see that.

by peter m on Oct 5, 2008 4:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well, they’re supposed to be professional reporters. They ought to be able to separate appreciating the man from analyzing the decision. But I guess analysis is not really what they do.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Too often, no. I’m surprised that they haven’t dug into why Isaac was let go (or at least not told us about it). I doubt that it was actually about the bullpen, which has been up and down for years with him as the constant. One has to figure there’s something else, but what it is, I can’t figure out (nor are the PD reporters telling us, if they know).

by peter m on Oct 6, 2008 1:15 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well in all fairness, they are reporters and not analysts.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 6, 2008 8:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s more true of Hoynes than the others. Terry Pluto is really more of a commentator/analyst. He hardly ever just reports on games/trades/etc. So, I kind of expected him either to leave it alone or to say something more about what was going on. Maybe there’s less here than meets the eye, who knows? Maybe they just fired the guy.

by peter m on Oct 6, 2008 9:19 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Commentator is not the same as analyst by a far stretch. Anybody can comment.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Steve Phillips is an “analyst”… It would seem that anybody can analyze, as well.

Therefore, commentators are the same as analysts. Distribute that middle, biatch.

by Logodaedalus on Oct 7, 2008 2:50 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Steve Phillips is called an analyst by his employer, but that doesn’t mean that he is one.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 4:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Too often?

Ever.

They are not analysts, ever.

When they occasionally dip into analysis, they are almost always terrible at it.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe a better way to talk about this is to say that reporters are supposed to report what happens. That can mean simply reading press releases, reporting on interviews, and commenting on public information, which is what a lot of sports guys do, I find. There’s also investigative reporting, in which the reporter actually digs and tries to find out things that are not publicly stated and/or to compare public statements to data that may confirm or contradict them. In the Isaac case, we clearly got the former — with the addition of editorial remarks by the reporters. What we DID NOT get was information about what went on behind the scenes, the kind of thing that requires investigation. Maybe that’s because the reporters didn’t try; maybe because they couldn’t find out (I doubt this); or maybe there’s a reason they’re not sharing what they found out, as some people have speculated here.

by peter m on Oct 7, 2008 12:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

apologies

I didn’t go back far enough to see that this was already commented on. And this thread seems to have more info/comments than the other one, so I’ll comment in here. Sorry again for the hijack.

Bullpens are the most unstable part of your ballclub. Shapiro has said that himself several times. So there had to be something more than just the performance of the bullpen that caused this firing. Isaac helped turn around Millwood, Howry, and any number of other guys (my memory for that kind of thing isn’t very good). So this couldn’t have been a “this year the bullpen stinks, so Luis is the problem”.

And that’s the part that bugs me. If he knew that he was gonna fire Isaac, he should have done it at the end of the season, right after the final game. Do it in person, face-to-face. You don’t have to fly someone down to PR to fire them, but when you know that you’re going to can a guy, man up and do it face to face.

That’s just my feelings on that.

by lenred on Oct 5, 2008 1:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

In Shapiro’s press conference he said he offered Isaac another position in the organization, but Isaac said he wanted to look for another major league bullpen job.

Shapiro said if things dont work out, Isaac can call him immediately and they’ll hire him for something in the organization.

by world dictator on Oct 8, 2008 3:55 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I saw that too. If true, then what the heck is all the indignation from the sportswriters about? It’s unlikely to be a lie, since I doubt Shapiro is doing damage control on something as minor as how Luis Isaac was handled. So, the PD guys evidently were lazy and didn’t find out what the situation was (or, they didn’t care, and just wanted to take a potshot at the Indians).

by peter m on Oct 8, 2008 5:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, the PD guys evidently were lazy and didn’t find out what the situation was (or, they didn’t care, and just wanted to take a potshot at the Indians).

Why is this story unlike any other story?

Opps, sorry, it’s Yom Kippur not Passover.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 8, 2008 5:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t get it (the Jewish holiday part). I guess I should write for the PD?

by peter m on Oct 8, 2008 5:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

During a Passover Seder, the youngest child asks a series of questions about “why is this night different than any other night.”

Since Yom Kippur starts at sundown tonight, I was trying to juxtapose the two ideas.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 8, 2008 5:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thanks. And, pardon my ignorance. Perhaps the PD guys need to atone?

by peter m on Oct 8, 2008 8:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Can anyone with a BaseballAmerica account post or paraphrase the article on their frontpage about Brantley?

by JP_Frost on Oct 4, 2008 2:49 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The article, written by Tom Haudricourt, doesn’t contain much that we didn’t already know. Haudricourt quotes Doug Melvin as saying “he wasn’t sure if he would have sent Brantley or Green had the decision fallen on the Brewers.” The Brewers expect both to be major leaguers. Haudricourt also mentions that Cleveland’s selection of Brantley means that he has been withdrawn from the Brewers’ AFL roster and replaced by Lorenzo Cain. I guess now the question is whether the Indians can find room for him on the Surprise team. Finally, Haurdicourt refers to BA’s selection of Brantley as having the best baserunning and strike-zone-judgment skills in the Southern League.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 4, 2008 4:41 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tony Lastoria is phoning scouts, etc., to prepare a write-up on Brantley that he plans to publish early next week.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 4, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Update

I am going to be doing an interview Thursday with Mike on a webcast, so just an FYI.
———-
Hey everyone, just an FYI, but Josh Kusnick (Michael Brantley’s agent) will be on my radio show this Thursday at 9:30pm ET. The direct link to Thursday’s show is below:
www.blogtalkradio.com/TheClevelandFan/2008/10/10/Smoke-Signals-Cleveland-Fan-Live

Josh will be on for a few segments and my co-host Paul and I will ask the obvious questions pertaining to the Indians trade for Brantley and other things, and the phone lines will be open for anyone who wants to call in to speak to Josh and ask whatever they want. Phone number to call is 646-716-8012.

Michael Brantley himself is also schedule to be on, but as an FYI will not be taking calls from the fans (only his agent). As a reminder, for those that cannot listen live, the show is podcasted and can be downloaded and listened to at anytime by visiting the link I provided above or at www.blogtalkradio.com/theclevelandfan .

Hope many of you tune in, and remember the show is still a WIP.;-) Should be an informative hour. Josh is not what you would expect from an agent, and makes for an awesome interview. And this should be the first radio/TV interview in Cleveland for Brantley.

by Agent39 on Oct 5, 2008 10:44 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From Tony Lastoria, regarding Brantley: “His floor looks like that of a Randy Wynn, a middle of Juan Pierre (little less speed, but much better plate approach), and a ceiling of Kenny Lofton (his career to this point is virtually a mirror image to Lofton’s, and at three years younger).”

Now, if he has put up the same numbers as Lofton but he’s three years younger, shouldn’t his ceiling be higher, if not much higher than Kenny Lofton?

You have no idea the physical toll that three vasectomies have on a person

by jakesinger777 on Oct 6, 2008 11:57 AM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All due respect to Tony, but even bringing the name Juan Pierre into the discussion indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of Brantley’s package of skills. For that matter, is Pierre even a better player than Wynn?

Lofton was an unusual prospect. He was drafted as a college junior having played very little baseball, based mostly on his very raw tools — unlike most major talents, who have been playing baseball regularly for over a decade by the time they’re drafted. So he shouldn’t be seen as a typical profile, he had a high ceiling even though he was not a very young prospect, but few prospects profile out like that.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 12:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I sat there and said the same thing. In this scenario I was hoping he’d reach the floor over the middle

by Roger Dorn on Oct 6, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

is Pierre even a better player than Wynn?

man, that was my exact thought. read that three times thinking i missed something.

by Brick. on Oct 6, 2008 9:27 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

It’s Randy Winn, not Wynn, and yes he has had a significantly better career and peak than Pierre, and although four years older, looks like the better bet to add to that career.

by ClarkM on Oct 6, 2008 10:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the comparison between Lofton and Brantley isn’t a particularly good one. Here are Lofton’s minor league numbers. Here are Brantley’s. What Lofton shares with Brantley is a pretty good walk rate and a good batting average, leading to a good on-base percentage. They also both lack power. But that’s pretty much of the end of it. The strikeout rates, which is the most notable feature of Brantley as a batter, aren’t anywhere near each other.

by APV on Oct 6, 2008 12:29 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Good Lord, I had no idea Lofton’s ’94 was so good.

by kwoog on Oct 6, 2008 1:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What a shock, age 27.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 1:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Something that struck me when I looked at Kenny a while back is that he was a different kind of fast. I’d be interested to see a correlation of stolen bases in the minors to the majors, but for now I’ll just say there’s a difference between stealing 20-some as a minor leaguer — hell, Adam Dunn did that — and Kenny Lofton. It prompts some interesting questions for me, too. At what point are you so fast that, more than it being just a general positive for you, e.g. Barfield or Gutierrez, it actually becomes a valuable asset for the team? At what point is speed NOT over-rated?

by fleerdon on Oct 6, 2008 11:12 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It isn’t pure speed that’s valuable, it’s baserunning ability, of which speed is a factor, and outfield range, of which speed is one factor. You can be an awfully fast runner and still be a mediocre baserunner, Coco Crisp being a prime example. It’s harder to be super-fast and still have just-okay range in the outfield, but Lord knows Kenny gave it his best shot.

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:22 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just remembered something a scout said about him once, “He looks like he’s being chased by bees out there.”

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:23 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I hear you. I’m having trouble putting the words on this question, which might suggest it’s just not very good.

A post of yours that sticks in my head is this one. I was probably recalling your phrase “a different kind of fast” when I made that comment. Not sure why I’m fixated on the usefulness of speed. Unfamiliar with it of late, I guess.

While I’m looking at it, would you still write that comment about Frank, just below the linked comment? I mean, if flipping Ludwick can have a late bloom, I can’t help but think Frank’s still got a decent shot at it in his age 26 season. Though I no longer make an effort to suppress my pro-Frank bias, so there’s that.

by fleerdon on Oct 7, 2008 12:22 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don’t see that phrase in there, although I do see “different degrees of speed.” It’s kind of frightening to read 2000 words you have no recollection of writing. Anyway, players who can make a real impact with speed are both rare and exciting, and of course that makes them interesting.

I see my contribution to Taveras’ Wiki entry is still intact: “Taveras is an exceptionally poor power hitter, producing the lowest slugging percentage among all regular major league outfielders for both the 2005 and 2006 seasons.”

I’m not sure what comment about Frank you mean in particular, but I still basically think of him the same way I have for years. I can see great things are possible for him, yet good things are never all that likely.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 4:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Frankie Taveras was one hell of a shortstop for the Pirates and Mets.

by odradek on Oct 7, 2008 5:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’d just add…stolen base numbers are a pretty volatile in the minors. Really fast guys always do well, but you get a lot of variation depending on the franchise, team/manager, league.

by APV on Oct 6, 2008 11:36 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doesn’t seem to be a huge amount of base-stealing in the Southern League. Brantley’s 28 were good for a tie for 6th and second on the team behind Escobar, all despite playing in 20-30 fewer games. they run even less in the Eastern League.

by FredOx on Oct 7, 2008 10:59 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m at least hoping for a Coco Crisp that makes less outs but hits for less power.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 6, 2008 1:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m hoping for a Manny Ramirez with less power, more speed and slightly fewer strikeouts, with 100-120% of the endearing goofiness and 5-10% of the ruthless money-grubbing. I’m undecided about the percentage of dreads.

by NickFantana on Oct 6, 2008 1:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

If Brantley’s K% this year was a real indicator of his skill, and not a fluke, it is a better skill than anything Crisp ever displayed in the minors. For that matter, it is a better skill than anything Lofton displayed aside from Lofton’s speed. And not striking out is probably a better skill than being fast, especially given Brantley is not slow. There are a lot of nice things about Brantley, but that K% from this season is the single best number about him. The extent to which it reflects Brantley’s real ability will go a long way in determining what kind of ceiling he probably has.

by APV on Oct 6, 2008 1:44 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is K% a great indicator only during the developmental stage, rather than when a player is a final product? Obviously there’s a lot of talk about an out being an out (a K is no worse than GB or FB), and we have productive players like Sizemore, Peralta, Pronk circa ‘06, and even Shoppach. So why is Brantley’s low K% so esteemed?

I’d have to guess that it’s only impressive in combination with his OBP and pitches-seen-per-at-bat skills. When you’re drawing lots of walks, going deep into counts and still almost never striking out, it must mean plate discipline supreme, no? (as opposed to someone who works the count and ends up walking back to the dugout a lot b/c of it… or someone who almost never strikes out b/c they rarely see as many as 3 pitches)

by kwoog on Oct 6, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well K is no worse than a GB or FB is an ok point to make. But its not that simple a batter either puts the ball in play, strikes out, or walks. so not striking out often along with keeping a decent walk rate would indicate more balls in play. A ball in play isn’t a GB or FB out all the time, roughly 30% of the time its a hit. In a pure OBP way, Brantley’s skill set translates very well. A guy like Sizemore can strike out as much as he does, because his BB rate is high, and often the strike out rate is a function of power (the power hitters tend to strike out alot and its symptom of the skill/ability to hit for power). So Brantley will probably never be as strong as a power hitter as Sizemore, but there’s more ways than one way to skin a potato (I’m not really into seeing a cat without its skin). We can’t fill a lineup of 9 Grady Sizemores (one can dream though), so having a high OBP guy with potential for a little power(15 Hrs in a year maybe) and the ability to reach second base often (through gap power doubles and stolen bases) is a real nice to have.

by hans on Oct 6, 2008 3:04 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most definitely worthy of a rec!

by talonk on Oct 6, 2008 7:07 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’d also be batting first and sixth, so everyone would be happy.

by FredOx on Oct 7, 2008 11:00 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i saw something like that in a Bugs Bunny cartoon once.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 7, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I believe he was also the pitcher, catcher, fielder, and umpire. That Bugs was quite the athlete.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 7, 2008 11:31 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nasty changeup.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 7, 2008 11:43 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sign Bugs! :-)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 9, 2008 10:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Would you say that Grady is “living up to the hype”?

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Oct 8, 2008 8:28 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Well played again.

by fwembt on Oct 9, 2008 1:08 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That skill in combination with his apparent selectivity suggest that he has an ability to put pitches in any given AB in play. And you knows what happens to BIP, esp. with speed guys. It’s also the kind of thing he’ll probably carry with him as he moves up. There’s probably something in this approach that’s seemingly linked to his lack of power, but he’s so good at this bat control thing that it’s easy to imagine him trading a little control for power (he’ll learn pitchers, learn the “pitch to hit” concept, lifts some weights, etc.). You don’t see too many young players who’re like this. Lofton isn’t a good pie-in-sky comp. He does the kind of things Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs & Rod Carew did. He’s a throwback. I think he’s got a good shot.

by jhon on Oct 6, 2008 4:58 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

ah good point about his speed impacting his baBIP, speedier guys usually have higher baBIP as a result of their ability to make it to first base quicker.

by hans on Oct 6, 2008 10:57 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All you guys are going to find out, he doesn’t need to trade anything for power other than his youth. He can stay the same kind of hitter and he’ll hit 25 home runs by age 25. Who wants to make a wager on nit?

by Jay on Oct 6, 2008 11:24 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I might get in on that, if only to seek out some bitter validation after the Jody Gerut comp incident. 25 MLB HRs during or before his age 25 season. Two tickets to the minor league game of your choice, so you can go watch somebody new projectile vomiting projectibility.

by fleerdon on Oct 7, 2008 12:33 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Didn’t mean to emphasize that too much. Man muscles are, above all else, the secret to power.
Can’t make that bet though. Brantley isn’t exactly lining doubles left and right, so I think he’ll change in our system (but only slightly).
I wouldn’t be shocked if that kind of HR power comes next. 25 by 25 is not at all out of reach.

by jhon on Oct 7, 2008 9:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He’s been hurt. Rocketing doubles and triples are coming.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 4:37 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Obviously there will be an increase in power with age. But I remain skeptical in the absence of evidence to the contrary that his baseline power (age-adjusted), which to this point has been very minimal, will show a dramatic increase. His has a track record of pounding the ball into the ground.

by APV on Oct 7, 2008 4:40 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You taking me up on that wager?

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 8:50 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not willing to tempt bad karma fate with the Indians future, so I’ll pass. Besides, Chuck still owes me two six-packs for my last LGT wager. I’m just saying that there is nothing in his record to this point which suggests power is imminent.

by APV on Oct 7, 2008 8:53 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Chuck never pays up, he just says that eventually he’ll win.

Still waiting for my beer based on Hafner’s OPS+ being better than Lee’s ERA+ by the end of last season.

by Jay on Oct 7, 2008 8:56 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To be fair, I haven’t seen Chuck since our wager (I believe a double or nothing on Cabrera being in Cleveland on June 1st and Barfield remaining in Buffalo on June 1st).

by APV on Oct 7, 2008 9:30 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Semi-random fun fact:

Torri Hunter’s slg% was .338 as a 21 y.o. in AA.

Man muscles.

by jhon on Oct 7, 2008 11:45 AM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think in the minors strikeout and walk rates can inform you as to how the player is going to do at higher levels. If you a guy in Kinston with huge strikeout rates but still hitting for power, chances are that better AA and AAA pitchers will exploits the holes in his swing when he gets promoted.

Granted, it seems like Brantley is trading plate discipline for power, but with his tool set, it probably makes sense to.

by Ryan on Oct 7, 2008 2:26 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And to echo some of the above statements, Brantley will hit for more power just by getting older.

by Ryan on Oct 7, 2008 2:28 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello APV,

While these other sample sizes are smaller, arguably, this isn’t the first year that Brantley has showed advanced skill of not striking out much.

Here are Brantley’s BB/K ratios at each level, along with his age at each level.

R – AZ Brewers (Arizona League) – 173 ABs – 22 BB/13 K – age 18
Low-A – W. Va. (SAL) – 360 ABs – 61 BB/51 K – age 19 (he hit .300/.402/.339 – unless his low SLG ratio or his very young age was the reason, he was left at W. Va to begin the following season as well.)
Low-A – W. Va. (SAL) – 218 ABs – 31 BB/22 K – age 20
AA Huntsville (SL) – 187 ABs – 29 BB/25 K – age 20
AA Huntsville (SL) – 420 ABs – 50 BB/27 K – age 21 (he also hit .319/.395/.398 – outside of 2007 at Low-A W. Va. (his second season there) where he slugged .440, that .398 SLG percentage is the highest in his professional career to this point).

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Oct 6, 2008 11:16 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i didn’t get a single one of those movie references

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Oct 7, 2008 2:17 PM EDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You need to get out more. (or at least not drink so much before you go out.)

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Oct 7, 2008 2:32 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Not even the Vader one? Big robot-looking black samurai? Nothing?

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Oct 7, 2008 3:45 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oh well besides the Vader one and the kate winslet one

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Oct 7, 2008 7:54 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I get most of them, but haven’t seen the movies they refer to. Not sure which is worse.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Oct 7, 2008 4:05 PM EDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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