Open Cliff Lee Just Won the Cy Young Award Thread
by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2008 10:57 AM EST
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PrintUPDATE, 2:00 PM: And boom goes the dynamite
22-3, 4 CGs, 2 SHOs, 223.3 IP, 170/34 K/BB, 3.8% BB/PA, 19.1% K/PA, .304 BABIP, 0.48 HR/9, 1.11 WHIP, 2.54 ERA, 175 ERA+, 3.81 tRA, 141 tRA+
I figure at about oh, say 3:00 PM (or whenever the award gets announced) this can change into the Official Cliff Lee Cy Young Celebration Thread, sponsored by the worst web site ever. Until then just go nuts.
I'll be the first one to say I was pretty miffed when Cliff Lee A) wasn't traded, B) won a starting job out of spring training. I thought Aaron Laffey would pitch circles around him.
For a good laugh, head over to this article which explains why Roy Halladay is the deserving Cy Young winner. Listen, I've heard the discussion several times. There's no doubt that Halladay is a better pitcher but Cliff Lee just had a better year. You can't fault someone for competition or what they would have done. Or can you? Anyway, the best part of the article:
Removing the stat lines from Halladay's six worst starts (an average of one per month), he was 19-7, with a 1.88 ERA in 191 1/3 innings. Defensive lapses sometimes contributed more than him having bad stuff.
Of course like a good jouirnalist he goes on to show us that without Lee's worst six starts he would be undefeated and-- what's that? He doesn't use the same selective stat-picking for Lee? Interesting. And I'm not quite sure how many defensive lapses the best defense in baseball had this year.
Anyway, have at it. Back to back Cy Young winners is an impressive feat. No pressure, Fausto.
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What do people think it would take to resign Cliff Lee to an extension? 15 million per? Is it worth it? Has he completely turned it around?
Also, would you sell high on Cliff Lee? If the Indians find themselves at .500 in July do they keep pushing towards the division title (since .500 ball probably put you 5-6 games back) or do they trade Cliff?
Personally, I love Cliff Lee, and I would prefer to resign him.
You know something? I think I like this new SBN architecture.
by fleerdon on Nov 13, 2008 11:15 AM EST reply actions
Comment was prompted by the fact that I just tried to “Z” my way through my school webmail account. Occurred to me that I haven’t even noticed the format for months. Must mean it’s working.
I have my doubts about the efficacy of the post tags, but maybe that will change with time.
by fleerdon on Nov 13, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions
meow
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Nov 13, 2008 12:49 PM EST reply actions
Hooray for Cliff. Although I think his entire purpose last year was to distract other fans from how crappy everybody else on the team was doing. I’d mention that I’m an Indians fan, and someone who say “Hey, what’s up with Clfif Lee?”
I don’t know what was “up” with Cliffy, but it sure didn’t counter what was “down” with Hafner, Martinez, Gutz, Marte, Carmona, Betancourt, Carbera, Dellucci, Garko.
Sorry for that, I meant to just say, Hooray for Cliff.
This is my favorite comment from the Halladay article:
“Doc has problems in personal presentation, but he doesn’t care. The low-key Jays righthander doesn’t have the flashy nickname, the flamboyant quotes or automatic national media exposure in the States that tends to attract the voters’ attention.”
yeah, because Cliff Lee in Cleveland has all of those things at his disposal.
“Doc” isn’t flashy?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 13, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions
That makes zero sense. What a tool.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Nov 13, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
Shhhhhhhh. Nobody’s allowed to talk to Cliff until the announcement is made……
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Nov 13, 2008 1:04 PM EST reply actions
Some items of note from the Toronto homer
“Halladay ranked third-fewest in the majors in pitches-per-inning (14.5) behind noted ground ball hurlers Greg Maddux and Paul Byrd.”
Paul Byrd actually had more flyballs than groundballs this year (251 FB: 227 GB) for a GB/FB ratio of 0.90. Halladay had 184 flyballs to 383 groundballs for a GB/FB ratio of 2.08
“Defensive lapses sometimes contributed more than him having bad stuff.”
Halladay gave up 12 unearned runs in his 34 starts. In those games where he gave up an unearned run, his team directly lost 2 and would have been in a tie if the unearned runs didn’t score. For comparison, Lee gave up 5 unearned runs in his 31 starts. That directly led to one loss. So, even if you take away 2 of those losses by Halladay (and one for Lee), does that make Halladay more deserving of the award?
Doubtful.
It’s not actually a fair comparison — the Blue Jays had only an infield defence to back up their man, while Lee had a full-blown defense behind him. For this reason alone, Halladay should clearly win.
by Logodaedalus on Nov 13, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Curiously, “defence”, but “defensive”….
by Logodaedalus on Nov 13, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
FWIW, the last team that had back-to-back Cy Young winners that were two different individuals was Toronto in 96 and 97 (Hentgen and Clemens). In the NL Maddux and Smoltz did it in 95 and 96.
Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, and Greg Maddux were really good in case you forgot.
Steel Nick
yes, they need to switch to our rec green!
by talonk on Nov 13, 2008 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
rec, just because I want to see your post illustrate your point
by Logodaedalus on Nov 13, 2008 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
eh what the heck – I’ll finish it off.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
We may not be the best at winning baseball games, but we are the best at winning Cy Young awards
by millionairesrow on Nov 13, 2008 2:07 PM EST reply actions
I let out a Howard Dean-esque “YEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH” upon seeing the breaking news alert on the four-letter.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
The vote was an Obama-esque landslide!
by JulioBernazard on Nov 13, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
henry clay for president
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2008 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
love the west wing
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Nov 20, 2008 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
There’s a natural flow to the off-season. It’s free agents and trades and then you have your arbitration eligible players. Later in the off-season is when you talk about extensions.
Antonetti, per Paul Hoynes. He also points out that Clifton gets a $250,000 bonus for the award and his option year goes from $8MM to $9MM.
Steel Nick
Little known fact: Lee was acquired by the Indians in a deal with the Expos that sent them Bartolo Colon. We also recieved Grady Sizemore and Jeff Stevens in the deal.
by Brick. on Nov 13, 2008 2:13 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Wow, that was a good trade! I can’t believe it’s so little known!
by Logodaedalus on Nov 13, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
I wasn’t even trying to make a cultural reference. I have no idea what that’s even a reference to. From the picture, I take it Wallace Shah said it?
if you put an infinite number of andrews in a room with an infinite number of computers, eventually he will reference a movie by accident.
I feel like anything that’s two words is pretty dicey territory to ban. In fact, I wanted to just type “inconceivable” but LGT’s platform no longer accepts my one word posts. I have to have two words with a space in between or else it says “Please enter something in the content box” or something.
The minimum is going to get boosted by a word per week. By the end of 2009 you’ll have to write 60 words every time you comment.
Sort of like if “Speed” was about blogging. But slower.
by fleerdon on Nov 13, 2008 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
I enjoy how even in Cliffy winning the award, we get pissed at the homerific article written in a Toronto newspaper. It’s almost as fun as SF fans going bananas on the Chicago Sun-Times writer who left Lincecum off his ballot entirely.
Me, I’m just happy ot see the Tribe win major awards. I’m still pissed about how Belle got screwed in 1995. (Musta been his problems in personal presentation, lack of a flashy nickname and failure to play baseball in NY or Boston.)
by Fredward on Nov 13, 2008 3:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
It’s almost as fun as SF fans going bananas on the Chicago Sun-Times writer who left Lincecum off his ballot entirely.
Yeah but that’s still really stupid.
Steel Nick
I scratched my head a few times when the Dallas writer left CC off his ballot last year.
by millionairesrow on Nov 13, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions
“Joey” isn’t flashy?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 13, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions
I’m actually having a hard time thinking of a flashy nicknames for starting pitchers: Rocket? Ok, he won some awards. Oil Can? Never got him the Cy. Flash? He probably just wanted to be called Tom.
People who should lose voting privileges:
1. The three voters who left Halladay off the ballot.
2. The two voters who put Matsuzaka second.
3. The seven voters who put K-Rod second.
Probably some overlap there.
I hope there was no overlap of the last two groups.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 13, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
How about adding in the ROY voters who voted to people who weren’t actually rookies? Is it asking too much of a sportswriter to know about the players he’s voting for?
DISCLAIMER: I may be bitter.
Way too much.
I wish we had complete award voting data, because we could make up a new award for Worst Voter every year. Those would be some fun debates.
Hello odradek,
It seems likely they didn’t take the whole season into account; early on in the season, Volquez would have seemed like a good choice, but fell off in the second half. He still had a very solid season, especially for a young pitcher, but good enough to receive second-place votes in the Cy Young Award? – I agree that he didn’t when you had Webb, Lincecum, and Santana all having stronger seasons and arguments than Volquez did.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
He was talking about Rookie of the Year voting I believe.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 15, 2008 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
When asked what his favorite book was, Cliff Lee said, “I don’t read books”. Man, I just love this guy!
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Really? Why haven’t you told us this before, Chuck.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 13, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions
You mean that I love Cliff Lee or that he doesn’t read books? The former I think I’ve exposed repeatedly, the later comes from and “in depth” interview form the PD that appeared towards the end of the last season.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I meant the former, and I was being sarcastic. You profess your love for Cliff Lee all the time on here.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 13, 2008 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
This is just part of Chuck’s self-loathing thing. He’s smart and successful and escaped Cleveland, and he worships guys who aren’t smart and/or aren’t successful and/or didn’t escape Cleveland. If you’re a dumb failure who still lives in Chuck’s old neighborhood, that makes you the greatest guy ever to walk the earth.
Nice bit of armchair psychoanalysis – almost as accurate as your baseball analysis. No the reason I love Cliff is that he demands that you take him as he is: a hard ass redneck from Central Arkansas. No pretensions, no airs, no bullshit. He coulda picked a book offa Oprah’s ten best list. Or something by Tom Clancy. But no, Cliff didn’t and doesn’t give a shit about what you think of him or anybody else – outside of his family. What Cliff is saying is that he might be an illiterate Arkansas hillbilly – so what? He’s not on the Indians pitching staff to review modern literature. He’s still the best damn pitcher in the American League.
When sent down to AAA after his injury, he didn’t whine, he didn’t kvetche, he didn’t demand a trade. He went to Buffalo and concentrated on his delivery – then he went back to Benton and worked on it some more. When the season started he took all that hard work and turned it into results – I love that.
Now there’s lots of folks that think Cliff can’t do this again – after all he doesn’t have overpowering stuff like the LGT Poster Boy, CC. Nor a trick pitch or any other tangible skill that sets him apart form all the other pitchers in the league – except – except – that anger, that competitiveness, that fire that drove him to be the best pitcher in all of baseball last year.
Here’s another quote from Cliff that I love, "I want to win this Cy Young again. I want to make a habit of it." Anybody who doubts Cliff Lee can do it again is a fool.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on Nov 13, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Um, no, Lee has superior talents and skills that make him this good. Determination, attitude, confidence — all good, I don’t disagree that he’s got ‘em, but the scouts identified his very tangible good qualities years ago. This isn’t Rambo or Star Wars, he isn’t using raw determination or the Force. Real life. I do love the hard work and results, though. Who wouldn’t?
If anything, he was more underachieving in prior seasons than he was overachieving in this season. Like, he has 70 talent, performed like a 50 for years, and then this year busted out an 80. Common sense says he isn’t likely to pump up season after season at this “80” level, but I’m optimistic that he can stay up at that 70 level, basically the same level where he’s been since a brief slump in May.
Now about C.C. The guy simply had the most impressive career as a Cleveland Indian of any pitcher over the last 40 years, which for most of us covers most or all of our lifetimes — and frankly it’s not a close call. Given his stature in the history of the team, there has been no special emphasis or affection for him here, that’s all in your head.
Are we going to discount his son’s illness? The piece about how Laffey’s mother’s illness is both touching and informative. We all know that there are many things outside of baseball that influence a player’s performance almost all of which we know nothing about. In this is especially true for guys like Lee – private, self-directed and loath to use any excuses. And you’re right, Lee’s got a better than average fastball – what? 91 to 93 mph and a pretty good curve – but so do at least 30 other guys in the major leagues. What I think sets Lee apart is his anger – and from all I read and heard from people who know him, he’s one driven guy. I love this.
Here’s another thing. Lee’ll be gone in two years, probably to LA or the Cubs or the Cards or maybe even those goddam Yankees. Not for CC money, but it’ll be a hellava lot more than the Tribe can afford. But you won’t get any song and dance and smoke up your skirt from Cliff. He won’t give you the ol’ “I’d love to stay in Cleveland” – or Milwaukee – or wherever the hell we might ship him to if we’re out of it in 2010 – “because the fans and the FO and my teammates are so marvelous” bullshit. No, Cliff’ll remember when the fans booed him off the field and the FO kept him off the ‘07 post season roster. You better believe that when he was doin’ his running down in Benton last winter and his legs were killing him and his lungs were burning he channelled that hurt and ran one more mile. That’s what I love about Cliff. He’s one angry redneck.
And, oh yeah, didn’t Gaylord Perry pitch for the Tribe in ‘72? Pretty sure he put up an ERA of 1.92 that year when the league average ERA that year was 3.25. And he had an ERA+ of 170. Pretty good. Especially when you compare it to Tubby’s CY season. But then again The Lord was only with us for three years plus – while the Tribe fielded some of the worst squads in team history.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Wait wait wait … now it’s Cliff Lee’s son being sick is the reason he had a bad year or two? Just a minute ago, his greatness was due to “that anger, that competitiveness, that fire that drove him …” Make up your mind, damn it!
I demand that you choose one corny cliché and stick to it!
By the way, I give Cliff a lot more credit than you. I think he knows perfectly well why he was booed and why he was left off the postseason roster — for perfectly good reason in both cases. I don’t think he’s even mad about it. I think he’ll remember better that the team didn’t unload him like a bag of balls, that the team favored him (at least a little) over Laffey and Sowers the following Spring. That said, his future contract and song-and-dance remains to be seen.
I won’t waste time splitting hairs with you. Perry was better in ’72 than C.C. has ever been over a full season, and yet my initial statement stands: Sabathia had the most impressive career as a Cleveland Indian of any pitcher over the last 40 years.
Having said that, on behalf of the entire community, I apologize profusely for discussing C.C. more than Gaylord — clearly, we are obsessed and have an abnormal interest in this player, who objectively was not all that much more important to the Indians than Dave Burba.
yeah, what Jay said (in regards to CC’s career over Gaylord).
But Jay failed to touch on your other comment. CC never promised to stay in Cleveland or Milwaukee. Am sure his refusal of our offer was the clear sign of that. What I believe he said was he’d love to stay in Cleveland since it was where he came up through the ranks etc, but he’s going to hit the market and see what is there. At that point all of us pretty much wrote him off. I don’t see how that is CC blowing smoke up anyones butt. But maybe you feel that way. So be it.
Right. When he made that announcement, I wrote this:
Let me be really clear about this: This means C.C. will not be a Cleveland Indian after 2008. Despite his polite encouragement, there is no real rational reason to believe he will choose to re-sign with the Indians once he is eligible for free agency at the end of the season.
I love how we can just read something into someone’s performance now. Hafner not playing well? Must be hiding an injury. Lee suddenly doing well? Must be very angry at the team. The evidence for this? One actual injury and a quote about not reading books. There is nothing in print or that has ever aired on the television to suggest that Lee is driven by some all consuming anger. You like him? That’s great, just don’t invent a reason to do it.
am i wrong to be a little bit scared of cliff lee and all that anger?
by DontCallMeJoey on Nov 19, 2008 7:04 PM EST up reply actions
Oh boy, just woke up from the seizure induced by that green page. Way to go, Cliff!
by cleveland teamer on Nov 13, 2008 3:45 PM EST reply actions
HIRE THE EYEDROPPER
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Even though it’s meaningless, that 22-3 sure looks neat.
by cleveland teamer on Nov 13, 2008 4:04 PM EST reply actions
And completely off topic, does anybody know if that’s the real Jensen Lewis that joined the LGT Facebook group?
by cleveland teamer on Nov 13, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
while hawking high-end furniture at this place.
i drunkenly went by it in a cab a few weeks ago and it kinda blew my mind. and if that’s been mentioned in other posts/game threads, apologies.
by dwight on Nov 14, 2008 8:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
comedy
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Nov 15, 2008 4:58 PM EST up reply actions
Get out, really? We should pander to him more in case he reads us. Trevor Hoffman sucks!
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Maybe if we suck up enough we’ll get a REAL in game blogger. You know a couple of mobile updates from the mound would be nice.
JLEWCLOSE @letsgotribe – hold up guys, bout to get the final out here…1 minute ago from pitching mound
by cclemens31 on Nov 13, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“So guys….what pitch do I throw here.”
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Nov 13, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
Fausto in 2009 for the trifecta?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Nov 13, 2008 6:35 PM EST reply actions
maybe it’ll be Scott Lewis… out-of-nowhere-lee-style
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
“First Indonesian Cy Young Award Winner in MLBs History”
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Nov 13, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
“Nasty” is a pretty flashy nickname
by cleveland teamer on Nov 13, 2008 7:29 PM EST up reply actions
Nasty Tom Mastny is one of my favorite nicknames. It’s even better because Tom Mastny is not particularly good at playing baseball.
by OddlyGaussian on Nov 13, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions
As much as the save is an overrated stat, and the closer an overrated player, Gagne was ridiculous that year. 1.66 K/IP! If Jensen did this, the Indians win 90+ games. (Note: I realize that this is tautological since a closer needs LOTS of saves to win the Cy, which translates into LOTS of wins.)
Favorite Gagne moment: Someone charges the mound on him and Gagne goes all hockey player on him and throws his glove down.
Yeah, he’s Canadien…
by OddlyGaussian on Nov 13, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
It’s got to be Game 2 of the ALCS, setting the stage for the Trot winning hit and subsequent Gutierrez bomb
oh that was great
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Nov 14, 2008 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I guess that is better. I separate “Good Gagne” from “Really Terrible Gagne” in my mind.
by OddlyGaussian on Nov 14, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
How about a Laffey Cy Young throwing nothing but sliders?
Words do not do justice to my hatred for Boston sports teams.
by FaustosSinkingFastball on Nov 14, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Here’s some more stats on Cliff Lee’s 2008 season: LINK
67% of his first pitches were strikes. Seemed a lot higher during the season, but still 9 percentage points higher than league average.
by Toxicadam on Nov 15, 2008 12:47 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
One interesting on the hitters pages is the stat “Quality At-Bat %:”, which they define as:
WH outs + 7p. outs + H + BB + HBP + SAC / PA
Apparently “WH outs” is “well-hit outs.”
Pretty sure “7p. outs” means an out on 7+ pitches and “SAC” is sac-bunts + sac-flys.
Funny thing is, for all that sophistication, it’s really a Quality Plate-Appearance %.
i like
i like the odea lee is a best
by gradysizemore24 on Nov 20, 2008 9:49 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
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