Grady wins Gold Glove

Michael Young, really?

about 1 year ago bogey021 80 comments 0 recs |

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Wow, and Jeter actually had a decent defensive year.

by Ryan on Nov 6, 2008 4:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Also!

Dustin Pedroia is not a better defensive second baseman than Mark Ellis.

by Ryan on Nov 6, 2008 4:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

but he’s had to overcome so much!, I mean all that doucheyness

by hans on Nov 8, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Pedroia was AT BEST the 4th best 2B.

FWIW, it also looks like Adam Jones kinda got robbed.

Frakie G got really got robbed.

Truth be told, I’m about ready to write off this award all together as having any meaning.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Nov 6, 2008 4:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

“About ready to”? Didn’t the mutliple gold gloves for Jeter or the one for Palmerio when he played like 10 games at first write off the award already?

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Nov 6, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m slow.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Nov 7, 2008 9:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Frakie G got some love here:
http://www.billjamesonline.net/fieldingbible/the-winners.asp

by bantrybay on Nov 7, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t even care that Grady won because this by far has proven to be the world’s most absurd award.

Worse than World’s Best Boss.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 6, 2008 4:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

There’s a mug I found at a Parma Hts area Big Lots that simply stated “Best Teacher of the World”.

by hans on Nov 8, 2008 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

God you guys are humbugs. Who cares if the thing is perfect, just enjoy the recognition for our boy.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 6, 2008 8:09 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

you can't make everyone be happy about everything all the time. heck, you can't even make yourself do it, let alone everyone else.

by Brick. on Nov 6, 2008 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fair enough, I just don’t see any sense getting worked up over these things. I mean, Cleveland as a city has been robbed of a lot of minor and major sports victories over the years (rabble rabble grouse), so we might as well enjoy the good karma, misplaced as it may be, for what it’s worth.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 6, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

dude, just messing around making a joke about another thread….

by Brick. on Nov 6, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, I gotcha. Sorry if I’ve been all edgy, stressful week.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 7, 2008 1:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’m not sure where you’re reading that anyone is worked up.

I just honestly don’t care.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 6, 2008 11:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If you honestly didn’t care, would you call it the world’s most absurd award?

Just sayin.

Bah, enough from me. It’s late. Sorry.

HEY GUESS WHAT I HEARD CLIFF LEE’S GUNNA WIN DA CY YUNG!

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 7, 2008 1:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I still care about Cy Young and MVP, because they can still get those right on a more consistent basis. Completely different voters anyway.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 7, 2008 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

They do? I don’t think so. I think they screw up roughly half of them, which is more than the number of screwed-up Gold Gloves awarded.

by Jay on Nov 7, 2008 11:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You think less than half of the Gold Gloves are screwed up? Interesting. I guess I’ve never really considered what I think the percentage is.

by Voltaire on Nov 7, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well how are we defining “screwed up” in both cases? Because Hunter isn’t an awful choice but there are definitely more deserving players.

At least every year the BBWAA has to look at the worthy candidates and make a decision. So much of the GG to me is just reputation.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 7, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Meaning I could probably mail in my ballot for next year and get most it right.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 7, 2008 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

“right” being defined by “guys you would vote for”? Way to go out on a limb there…

by Logodaedalus on Nov 7, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

No, meaning guys that will get voted. The “lazy” votes. Ichiro, for example.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 7, 2008 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, oh. Okay. That’s much less tautological.

by Logodaedalus on Nov 7, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I would agree with Nick. At least with the MVP and Cy Young voters, they may not always choose the best guy but they usually get a worthy guy. I mean, not in a million years would you see someone like Ryan Garko get MVP. Yet the GG voters often choose someone that’s not just a bad candidate, but the worst candidate. I haven’t studied fielding stats very much so I’m going off of Rob Neyer’s analysis, but Nate McClouth might be the absolute worst CF in the NL and Michael Young might be the worst SS in the AL. And they gave those guys Gold Gloves!

You’d never see that happen with the MVP or Cy Young. You could argue that Morneau didn’t deserve the MVP a couple years ago, but he still had a pretty good year. He wasn’t anywhere near the worst player, or even the worst 1B, in the AL.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Nov 7, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I disagree. There are 18 Gold Gloves awarded every year, and four MVP+Cys. You got 36 Gold Gloves over two years and 36 MVP+Cys over nine years.

And what I’m saying is, there are at least as many ridiculous MVP+Cys given in nine years as there are Gold Gloves in two years.

by Jay on Nov 7, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess what I’m talking about is more the level of ridiculousness. The MVP isn’t always given to the best player in the league, but he’s usually in the top 10 or so. There are many instances where the Gold Glove is given to the worst defender at his position (Jeter, McClouth). I don’t think you can find a case of a MVP/Cy given to someone near the worst in the league at hitting or pitching. They might not have been the best, but they were always near the top.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Nov 7, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t know, it’s different. There are generally only about 12 candidates for each Gold Glove. There aren’t many instances where the 12th best guy gets the award, there are just a few such instances. I think it’s just about as bad for a guy outside the Top 5 to get an MVP or Cy Young, given the prestige of those awards, and that happens pretty routinely.

by Jay on Nov 7, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you’re saying. And we should hold the MVP and Cy Young Awards to a higher standard because they are more prestigious.

But, to illustrate my point, let’s say we divide all pitchers (with a minimum IP) in to the top half and bottom half in the league for a given year. I’m pretty sure that no pitcher in the bottom half has every won a Cy Young Award. Probably no pitcher in the bottom three quarters. Yet, every year, about 3 or 4 Gold Glove winners are in the bottom half of the league defensively at their position, and some in the bottom tenth. That’s what I mean about GG winners being more ridiculous.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Nov 7, 2008 6:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Three or four per year are in the bottom half? I don’t think so. There are plenty of years when all the Gold Glove winners are good or even very good defenders. Just not since Jeter started winning them.

by Jay on Nov 8, 2008 5:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess I’m only thinking of the past few years because I didn’t know about “good” defensive stats before then. But there seems to be 2 or 3 really bad picks every year the past few years.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Nov 9, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

If I had the time I would totally do an in-depth-study of this. But I don’t. So there.

by Voltaire on Nov 10, 2008 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wily Mo Pena DESERVES a Gold Glove.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Nov 7, 2008 9:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

You can buy him a pair here. Only $10 per pair plus S&H. I’m sure he’d appreciate the thought.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Nov 7, 2008 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

OMG SHAPIRO DIDN'T TRADE WESTBROOK FOR HIM... FIRE HIS ASS.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Nov 7, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Grady, but does anyone here really think he’s the best CF in the league? I mean, he’s great getting to the ball, but he can’t even throw it to home plate. Runners routinely take the extra base against him.

I guess that’s part of the prob – most fielding metrics only cover getting to the ball and fielding it cleanly. But throwing (release, strength, accuracy) is a huge part of being a defender.

by mcrose on Nov 7, 2008 3:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Grady’s arm problems are exaggerated. He generally has gotten good marks for accuracy, and his throwing strength is average — not at all impressive, but not below-average either.

by Jay on Nov 7, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Jay, I’ve watched him play hundreds of games as well, and his arm strength is certainly below avg. I’m not comparing his real arm to his reputed arm, I’m comparing his real arm to other real arms.

You’re right, he’s worked hard to compensate by getting rid of it quick and making an accurate throw to the relay man, but he can’t throw it on a line to 2B much less third or home.

by mcrose on Nov 7, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

GOOTZ FOR CF!!!!

by elsandito on Nov 7, 2008 5:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Carlos Gomez and Curtis Granderson were almost certainly better in 2008, I think.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 7, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah but screw those guys

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 7, 2008 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

wear it on your sleeve

by Voltaire on Nov 7, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to argue with.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 8, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

David Pinto has some of his PMR (probabilistic model of range) defensive numbers out. Another defensive metric to look at. Adam Kennedy comes out looking like a stud. Would his defense be good enough for us to sacrifice that much offense at 2B? Dan Uggla comes out as quite good according to PMR. I wonder if the Cubs would send us Mike Fontenot?

by APV on Nov 7, 2008 5:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I think Kennedy has been thought of as a defensive stud for some time now.

by hans on Nov 8, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So we should sign Dan Uggla? Can I quote you on that? :-)

Actually I’m not as adamantely opposed to trading for Uggla like some people on here. But, Kennedy is more interesting to me. If he has anything left in his bat, Kennedy could be signed cheaply allowing us to spend the money on a SP.

by world dictator on Nov 9, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

PMR is an outlier with regards to Uggla. Most other metrics see him as a bad to very bad fielder.

by APV on Nov 9, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

and it turns out Uggla is getting some credit for plays he made when the infield was shifted…other guys also probably play in the shift at times, but this might explain some of Uggla’s high rating.

by APV on Nov 9, 2008 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, if we trade Hafner to another AL team, then arrange to play them continuously, then acquire Uggla, his fielding numbers will look much better.

by peter m on Nov 9, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t know why that would be true, since on the rare occasion Hafner’s not on the DL he’ll be striking out on low-outside junk

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Nov 10, 2008 12:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Only if we trade all our soft-tossing lefties to AL teams!

by peter m on Nov 10, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree, I think Kennedy would be a solid addition, and would probably come very cheaply.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 10, 2008 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Anyway we could pair Kennedy with a solid-hitting infielder so that we set up a defensive/GB platoon? On days when Carmona et al start, we would have Kennedy at 2B, Cabrera at SS, and Peralta (?) at 3B. Days when we didn’t have an extreme GB pitcher on the mound we could have some combination of Peralta (SS/3B), Cabrera (2B/SS) and someone else (3B/SS/2B) who might not be a great fielder but a better bat. Any scrap-heap good bat middle/left-infielders out there?

by APV on Nov 10, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I guy named Blake, I think.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Nov 10, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

hmm…

by APV on Nov 10, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You must have missed the “good bat” part.

The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay

by Buckeye Brad on Nov 10, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Blakes ‘08 OPS=.808. Somebody’s gonna bite to the tune of ~$7M per.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Nov 10, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Blake’s ’08 age: 34

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Nov 10, 2008 5:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Blake's '08 Poopy.

by Brick. on Nov 10, 2008 6:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

I think this is a fantastic idea.

I just don’t know if we can find a 3B bat that makes it worthwhile. Definitely worth considering/trying, though.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 10, 2008 1:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You know, if we could find a good bat for third, Kennedy is really extraneous, because then we could use Carroll as the good glove middle infielder if we really wanted to pair Asdrubal at short with a strong middle infielder (maybe Kennedy is better than Carroll with the glove, I don’t know, but THAT much better? I don’t think so). And, the real problem is, as you say, that we may not be able to find the 3B guy we want. Under those circumstances, signing Kennedy may improve the middle infield defense, but we force Peralta to 3B where he hits better than Marte, but is unlikely to field as well. Some gain, some loss there. Sounds a bit too much like tinkering to me.

by peter m on Nov 10, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Carrol and Kennedy do seem like one of them is wasting a spot on the 25-man now that you mention it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Nov 10, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

evidence suggests Kennedy IS that much better than Carroll with the glove. But there is some degree of excess if we have Cabrera, Peralta, Carroll, Kennedy and another guy…

by APV on Nov 10, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How much better could he really be at 2B? This past year, Kennedy had a significant lead in RZR, 881 to 831, but it’s only one year, and both guys played less than half their team’s innings at 2B. In 2007, it was Carroll who led by 50 points, and in 2006, Carroll led by 60 points (876 to 817).

Carroll also had stellar numbers at shortstop in 2006 and 2007 — he didn’t play there in 2008 — while Kennedy has played exactly two innings at shortstop in his entire career. That could just be happenstance, but the simplest explanation would be that Carroll was and is viewed as a guy who’s a credible shortstop, and Kennedy isn’t.

I’d be interested in seeing +/i and pmr and other data on these two guys, but based on RZR alone, it’s pretty farfetched that Kennedy represents any real upgrade.

by Jay on Nov 10, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Per Bill James Online:

Carroll at 2B:

+13 in 894 innings in 06
-1 in 431 innings in 07
-4 in 580 innings in 08

I don’t know if we can read much into Carroll playing SS in 109 innings for the Rockies between 06 and 07. He was +4 total during that time.

Kennedy at 2B:
+1 in 1140 innings in 06
-1 in 630 innings in 07
+19 in 635 innings in 08

Talk about being all over the place.

You guys are right – having both Carroll and Kennedy on the roster is both repetitive and redundant, it would seem.

by Peter Bendix on Nov 10, 2008 2:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You’re right, and I don’t read that much into Carroll playing those 109 innings.

It’s more that I’m reading inferring something from the fact that Kennedy has played only two innings at that position over the last nine seasons, while he’s played 59 innings in the outfield and none at 3B.

Carroll, on the other hand, has played 17 innings in the outfield, 495 innings at shortstop and 970 at 3B. That suggests something about which one is believed to have more real range by his own teams.

by Jay on Nov 10, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ll buy that, I guess. I guess my question then becomes how did we view Carroll’s defense last year? I recall not being overly impressed by his play at 3B.

by APV on Nov 10, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought he was very solid at 3B, but I also think it’s pretty hard to switch between 2B and 3B all the time — they would seem to have less in common in terms of play and physical actions than either one has in common with shortstop. To me, he was a lot closer to Marte (solid-plus) than to Blake (borderline butcher).

by Jay on Nov 10, 2008 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What about Branyan as the stick guy?

by NickFantana on Nov 10, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I’ll always sign up for Branyan as a role player.

The problem with this plan, however, is that Peralta probably needs to play 3B every day in order to adjust to the position. He did not do particularly well in a part-time 3B role in Buffalo back in 2004.

by Jay on Nov 10, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t see what the big deal is, we’ll just play Branyan at short in the all-stick, no-field alignment.

by NickFantana on Nov 10, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Fantana Corollary. I like it.

Defense is overrated. We’ll just core 10 runs/game.

1000 runs. ONE THOUSAND RUNS /yankees

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Nov 10, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh come on, it’s more nuanced than that:

Defense is overrated UNLESS a groundball pitcher is on the mound. That’s what APV’s post above initially suggested.

by NickFantana on Nov 10, 2008 5:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Could the American League give a Gold Glove for the DH? Kind of like: “Well, he used to be able to field!”

by larzko on Nov 7, 2008 7:29 PM EST reply actions 1 recs

Rec, although I’m having a hard time thinking of somebody who could have won it this year.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Nov 7, 2008 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Thought Palmerio won that one year.

Resident LGT beer kinda sewer

by mauichuck on Nov 7, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

And just to twist the knife, look at the #2 3B according to PMR (which again, I think is far from the be-all and end-all of defensive metrics)

by APV on Nov 10, 2008 11:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

At the other end of the spectrum, Casey Blake appears to be as overrated defensively as offensively.

by Voltaire on Nov 10, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

How legit is this methodology? I agree Marte’s defense is underrated but somehow appreciably better than Beltre, Rolen, and Crede?

by cheech99 on Nov 10, 2008 8:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I don’t think this measure is the be-all, end-all, but Marte was healthy this year and is in his prime. I’d like to say the numbers would be even better with regular work, but it may be that he’s benefiting from a small sample, too. The one thing we can say for sure is that he was well rested when he played.

by Jay on Nov 10, 2008 8:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs