Depth Starters
Lee and Carmona are a given in the starting rotation next year (even if their performance is not). Beyond that we have Jeremy Sowers, Aaron Laffey, Anthony Reyes, Scott Lewis, Zach Jackson, and David Huff. All but Huff have major league experience and are already on the 40-man roster. Coming out of camp it is possible some combination of these pitchers will represent 60% of the Indians starting rotation. But which ones should make it? Who is the best guess to be successful? Here are some numbers to try and look at that question.
This second chart shows their rank-order in some of those categories at each level:
So what can we get out of these numbers?....
First, I think Laffey has the best single skill of anyone in this group in his ability to induce groundballs. It is something he has always done and kept up at the big league level. You can also appreciate how under the radar Laffey was as a prospect. I still think Laffey is the best bet in this group to be a successful major league pitcher. If he can have even marginal improvements in his K% and/or BB% at the major league level, he should/could be a very good major league pitcher.
Second, Reyes' numbers are a little hard to interpret because he has spent so much time going back and forth between AAA and the bigs. Prior to that, his brief stints in A+ and AA were dominating. Even at AAA Reyes was pretty studly (although so was everyone else here, for the most part). He has the best track record as a strikeout guy, although his numbers in that area have declined considerably at the big league level while his BB numbers have seen a similar decline. It's not reflected here, but he started inducing more groundballs last year. I don't know what has happened with Reyes in the bigs, but his numbers don't reflect his minor league performance. Either he has become a different pitcher or his stuff simply hasn't held up against better competition. Since he is out of options, he seems a good bet (and probably a worthwhile risk) to start the season on the staff. I'd give it a fair coin flip whether Carl Willis can straighten him out enough to turn him into an effective major league pitcher.
Like Reyes, Sowers was pretty much a stud in the minors (although with signs of decline in AAA) and a bust in the majors. Also like Reyes, Sowers has a reasonably long track record of not doing well in the bigs, dampening optimism for him. I honestly have no idea what it will take for Sowers to succeed. Fangraphs pitch data suggests Sowers was throwing considerably harder last year than in 2007, which I think is a good sign. I would like to see Sowers get another extended shot, but Sowers will clearly have to earn his way into that spot.
Zach Jackson looks to me like a lesser version of Laffey. Of all these players, he showed the most obvious decline with advancement (although he had some injury problems contributing to that as well). Of all these pitchers, I think I'm probably least excited by Jackson...but maybe hanging around Westbrook, Carmona, Laffey and Carl Willis will do good things for him.
Scott Lewis was a minor league stud, but his minor league numbers are biased towards lower level competition. The knock against him as a prospect was that his ability to strike guys out wouldn't hold up as he advanced and his ability to pound the strike zone would become a liability if he couldn't miss bats. His 4 starts for Cleveland are a miniscule sample size, but they are consistent with that scouting report as his K% dropped and HRs jumped considerably. I think if Lewis is in the rotation he has to be put on a pretty short leash. His numbers in the minors surely suggest he's earned a shot, but I'm skeptical about his long term prospects.
Huff looks like a stud. Unlike Lewis he showed an improvement last year as he advanced. Hopefully he won't have as many problems as the rest of this list in transitioning to the majors. Cleveland can afford to wait on him if they want to, which is a luxury, and given the options in front of him I think Huff would have to look like a total stud in the Spring to earn a rotation spot at the start of the season.
So, my order of preference for the rotation next year is:
Laffey > Reyes > Sowers > Lewis > Jackson with Huff slotting in depending on the success/failures of the others and his own level of dominance.
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I find a couple things interesting.
First, perusing our 2008 stats, we were 7th in runs scored and 13th in runs allowed.
Second, there seems to be a prevailing wisdom that we have our 1st and 2nd starters locked and loaded and then several intriguing though flawed options for 4th and 5th starter candidates.
I’m not sure how important the first point is… clearly we had next to no contribution from Martinez and Hafner next year while guys exceeded expectations like Choo and Shoppach. But Shapiro’s whole “we can’t go into spring training with the infield we have now”… it’s not that I don’t agree, but I wonder if it’s a glove first option as oppose to offense first.
The 2nd point, I think a lot of people are thinking we have “no 3rd starter candidates” when everyone thinks of the 3rd starter type as the guy who has a 3.80 ERA when in reality the 3rd starter average (I’m guessing) is more like 4.40-4.50. I don’t see why between Laffey, Reyes, and Huff’s very strong minor league track record… there isn’t a 3rd starter to be found there.
All of that said, I agree with your rankings at the end of your post, APV. Whomever has to make the team (i.e. Reyes) makes the team. Whomever has options (Jackson if we get the 4th option year, Scott Lewis) starts at AAA.
Unless the best value we get for Shoppach is a starter in return (which I assume is unlikely based on the reports of “young closer”), I’d be fine with this bunch if they’re all going to spring training healthy).
by cheech99 on
Nov 8, 2008 2:52 PM EST
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I also don’t see the need to add a starter or reliever, unless the person added is a clear upgrade over what we have. By that I mean someone who we can reasonably expect to be either a very good starter or a very good reliever. We actually have a large amount of depth in the upper minors in both starting and relief pitching.
I’m still holding out for a super-slick fielding 2B or 3B as my #1 off-season goal.
by APV on
Nov 8, 2008 3:01 PM EST
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I’m still holding out for a super-slick fielding 2B or 3B as my #1 off-season goal.
like Droobs and Dominoz?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Nov 8, 2008 11:31 PM EST
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Fair, about Lewis, but I like that some of the arguments against making him a starter are decent arguments FOR making him a reliever sometime. Throws a lot of strikes? Left-handed? Good fastball spotting? Could make for a darn fine 7th inning.
I’m more excited about Zachson than everybody else. I’m not sure the Shapiro Indians do “throw-ins.” I think they got him for a reason.
This really isn’t my area, but Reyes’s delivery struck me as a little inconsistent looking. I’d love to see him with a year of our coaching under his belt.
by fleerdon on
Nov 8, 2008 10:08 PM EST
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I think the question with Lewis is if he can use his fastball, in combination with his changeup probably, to induce weak contact. If players can just wait for him to throw an 89mph fastball for a strike and tee off on it, I see him struggling as both a reliever and a starter. You wouldn’t want him as a reliever because he would presumably be a little homer prone.
I think there’s reason for hope, though. He was mighty successful in the minors. If Paul Byrd can have success his an 84mph fastball and an 80mph changeup, Lewis can be successful if he learns how to pitch the right way.
by APV on
Nov 8, 2008 10:21 PM EST
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He was more salary ballast than anything. The Indians didn’t really want him, but the Expos don’t make the trade unless they could have dumped some salary.
by Ryan on
Nov 11, 2008 1:12 PM EST
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Absolutely. They basically took him because it’s easier to get that approved by MLB than just sending the Expos $4 million in cash to release Stevens.
by Jay on
Nov 11, 2008 1:34 PM EST
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I think Huff is a better prospect than Adam Miller without even considering the injuries.
I know that’s not really earth-shattering but the reality just sort of sunk-in.
by afh4 on
Nov 8, 2008 10:36 PM EST
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although it is exciting to hear Miller’s throwing 97 this winter and that the Indians are moving him to the bullpen next season. he’s another guy, along with Stevens, Sipp and Meloan to think about in the bullpen mix.
by APV on
Nov 8, 2008 10:48 PM EST
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I’m just hoping Huff sort of allows us to get out from the shadow of all of the draft guys who haven’t quite worked out.
by afh4 on
Nov 8, 2008 11:03 PM EST
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They’re only moving Miller to pen to manage his innings/ injury risk.
That being said, I hope the front office gives him a real chance to make the team next year. I doubt they will, but on some level if Miller is going to get hurt, I’d rather have him get hurt in Cleveland instead of Buffalo again.
by world dictator on
Nov 8, 2008 11:42 PM EST
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I think if he performs well in ST they will give him a shot. He would add something to the bullpen, a true power fastball, that isn’t currently there. Cross your fingers.
by APV on
Nov 8, 2008 11:50 PM EST
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Sorry, no. If you take away the injuries, Miller is one of the best two or three pitching prospects in the game.
by Jay on
Nov 9, 2008 1:00 PM EST
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really?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Nov 9, 2008 6:08 PM EST
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Hell yes. Have you looked at what he was doing to Double-A hitters at age 21? And he actually had kind of a mediocre start that season, then totally dominated for June-July-August, 113:28 and only two HR in 105 innings. The only thing that’s changed since then is the injuries, which is a lot, but like I said, if you take away the injuries …
by Jay on
Nov 10, 2008 4:09 AM EST
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I’ll go…
Reyes/Huff > Laffey/Huff > SLewis > Sowers/Jackson
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Nov 8, 2008 11:29 PM EST
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there might be a spoon in here.
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
by gte619n on
Nov 10, 2008 9:22 AM EST
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At this point, start Adam Miller with the big club and just ride him out like the Brewers rode Sabathia for 2 and a half months. Hell, if it works out, there’s your #3 starter (Miller for 3 1/2 months, Westbrook for 2 1/2 months.
by cheech99 on
Nov 9, 2008 12:00 AM EST
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Even if Miller stays healthy, he’s still going to be on an innings limit – he only threw 28.7 innings last year. Best case scenario, Miller is great in the bullpen, leading a transition year in 2010.
by Ryan on
Nov 11, 2008 1:15 PM EST
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Nice work, and can’t disagree with your ranking. What scares me, though, is that not one of these guys is likely to make a major impact over the course of the season. Given that Lee is unlikely to dominate like last year and Fausto is an enigma, it scares that the rest of our rotation is made up of “depth” starters without one real sure thing. It’s like having a 10 piece pack of McNuggets instead of a 5 piece from Wendy’s.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Nov 9, 2008 1:33 AM EST
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That used to be true. McDonalds has done a pretty good job at not serving bad ones.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Nov 13, 2008 1:56 AM EST
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Actually, I agree. I honestly prefer McDonald’s nuggets at this point, but the prevailing opinion of them still tends to be “eeewwww.”
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Nov 17, 2008 8:27 AM EST
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I’m not sure we even have a # 1 or 2 starters I still think of Lee as a #3 and in Carmona the ace if last year was just a injury problem/learning year and not the league hitter have figured him out by laying off the sinker out of the strike zone. But back to the subject at hand I see Reyes get the #4 spot if this arm is healthy and the # 5 going to Laffey. With us sign FA to fill the 2or3 spot. I do not see Westbrook being of any help this year and not coming back until late Aug/Sept if at all in 2009. Nice work APV
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on
Nov 9, 2008 10:08 AM EST
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I still think of Lee as a #3
I wonder if Blue Jays fans think of Halladay as a #4?
by SuddenSam on
Nov 14, 2008 11:58 AM EST
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In these discussions of adding a #3 starter, I think it should be pointed out that all of these guys on the list at one point had both the pedigree and performance suggestive of at least a ML #3 starter. The difficulty in relying on any of them to fill that role next year is simply the huge variance in expectations for what they might provide. It’s possible Reyes reclaims some of his glimmer and all of a sudden looks like a #2 starter. It’s possible Sowers regains some confidence and returns to something like he was in the second half of 2006. It’s possible Laffey steps up and becomes a slightly better version of Jake Westbrook. It’s possible Huff joins the rotation and becomes a young Cliff Lee. I don’t think any of those results would be extraordinarily surprising (all of them, simultaneously, would be of course). But I also don’t think that is the most likely outcome for any of them, and they are all probably equally capable of going 2:1 on crap starts and good starts for a 2-month stretch. Hopefully the FO and coaching staff has a little more confidence in assessing these guys than any of us probably do.
The other challenge in thinking about these guys, and I’m sure one of the reasons Shapiro has been so vocal about adding a starter he can count on, is the importance of the starting staff in helping the bullpen to rebound. If we’ve got three of these guys in our rotation and one of the three completely craps out each turn through the rotation, that puts a huge strain on our bullpen. I think a big challenge for Wedge and the rest of the coaching staff next year will be striking a balance between giving whoever makes the rotation a legitimate chance to prove themselves and not riding a losing horse for too long.
by APV on
Nov 9, 2008 10:18 AM EST
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What a difference a year makes
CC, Carmona, Westbrook, Laffey, Byrd and Lee on the outside looking in.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on
Nov 9, 2008 11:07 AM EST
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I will still ignorantly consider Laffey as nothing more than a soft thrower, who won’t be anything more than a fifth starter.
by mjschaefer on
Nov 9, 2008 11:40 AM EST
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I’m not saying Laffey (or any of the Indians soft throwers is likely to become a top of the rotation guy), but I don’t buy the notion that seems to be out there among some of the LGT faithful that soft-tossers are inherently marginal pitchers. There are plenty of examples that contradict this: one of my favorite pitchers was Jimmy Key, who pitched very effectively for the Jays for years (and suffered somewhat from the view that he was “just” a soft tosser). Jamie Moyer’s another. There are many more. Obviously, you don’t want an entire staff of guys like that, (and the Indians have kind of a lot among their “depth” starters) since it’s partly the contrast to other pitchers that helps make them effective, but there’s no inherent reason why a pitcher like Laffey can’t become a major factor as a starter. That depends more on his command, intelligence, etc. than on how hard he throws.
by peter m on
Nov 9, 2008 12:14 PM EST
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You left out Greg Maddux – the quintessential soft tosser.
Maddux and his brother Mike trained under the supervision of Rusty Medar, a former scout from the majors. Medar preached the value of movement and location above velocity, and advised throwing softer when in a jam instead of harder; Maddux would later say, “I believed it. I don’t know why. I just did.”
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Nov 9, 2008 4:17 PM EST
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Yeah. Sometimes the most obvious things are the easiest to forget!!
by peter m on
Nov 9, 2008 5:09 PM EST
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When he was doing color on Orioles’ telecasts, Mike Flanagan used to talk about resisting the temptation to “try harder” when you get in a jam. Although it’s counter-intuitive, what you need to do is “try easier.”
by ken from alexandria on
Nov 9, 2008 8:24 PM EST
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Not much mention about Sowers. The times I’ve seen him pitch, it almost looks like he’s throwing up softballs. Thank goodness Adam Dunn’s not a Reds’ anymore, when Sowers pitched to him the last three years, Dunn’s launched some satellites that may not have come down yet. This is not a good thing. 4A?
by larzko on
Nov 9, 2008 4:12 PM EST
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Hey APV, how did you post the tables? I wanted to finish my article to post, and rather than retype my excel spreadsheet, it be much easier to post like that. Can you email me with the info? Thanx!
by talonk on
Nov 11, 2008 3:10 PM EST
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I cut and pasted the tables out of Excel and created image files out of them. I then uploaded them to flickr, and linked to them from there. I have no idea if that is an efficient way of doing it or not, but it wasn’t very difficult.
by APV on
Nov 11, 2008 3:18 PM EST
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I once tried to make a post at DBN with Excel tables and it was abominable. This is a good workaround.
by NickFantana on
Nov 11, 2008 9:31 PM EST
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As far as this season is concerned, yes.
by NickFantana on
Nov 13, 2008 12:49 PM EST
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