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Tribe 3 way trade per ROSENTHAL

8:46 p.m. — Mets close to landing Putz
The Mets are close to landing a setup man for new closer Francisco Rodriguez — and that setup man is another closer from the American League West.

J.J. Putz appears headed to the Mets in a three-team trade with the Mariners and Indians.

Mets right-hander Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first-base prospect Mike Carp are in the deal, as is Indians outfielder Franklin Gutierrez.

It is not yet clear which players are headed where.

UPDATED 10:19 p.m. — Mets working to acquire Putz

Under terms of the deal, the Mets would get Putz, outfielder Jeremy Reed and reliever Sean Green from Seattle. The Mariners would receive reliever Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first baseman Mike Carp from the Mets. They'd also get Franklin Gutierrez from the Indians and minor leaguers. The Indians would get reliever Joe Smith from the Mets and infielder Luis Valbuena from Seattle.

Ken Rosenthal, FOX Sports

Link 6 months ago Albrown_tiny volapuk Comment 526 comments 0 recs |

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meh, we’d be receiving someone back from the Mets, I get excited too easily

by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 9:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder who that would be?

Like I said, Carp would seem unlikely – he’s a solid prospect from what I’ve heard and read (though I haven’t heard as much about him over the past season), but we have a LOT of depth at that position, and likely will for at least the next 4-5 years, based on my post below.

Fernando Martinez? That’s probably unlikely, as Gutierrez would likely not be enough to fetch him. Is there a starting pitching prospect (Jon Niese, who is from Defiance HS in Defiance, Ohio? See this link) we could maybe get from the Mets.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmm… that could be a possibility, depending on the price, but I’m not sure just including Gutierrez would be enough to get that done, though maybe since Beltre only has 1 year left on his contract.

However, if Rosenthal is correct, it sounds like there are additional prospects that are unnamed, so Beltre wouldn’t qualify there, unless the negotiations turn toward Beltre, but maybe that’s why the Indians are involved in the first place in this proposed deal?

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello volapuk,

This is the link to that report.

If I had to guess, the only one that would make sense for us of those names mentioned would be Heilman, probably for the bullpen (unless they planned to make him a starter again, which I think he wanted to be, didn’t he, or am I incorrect?) Then again, he could just as easily go to Seattle since they’ll need a quality arm in the bullpen to help replace Putz (though Heilman is not at that level).

I suppose Chavez could be a possibility as well, though he’s more of a speed guy that probably is best as a 4th-OFer/defensive replacement-type rather than a starter. I’m not sure he’d fill in for Gutierrez if that is the idea. Again, though, perhaps he’s off to Seattle.

I don’t see how Carp is involved – we allowed Brown to be left off the 40-man roster because we already have a lot of 1B options, both now (Garko/Martinez/Hafner/Aubrey), the near future (add LaPorta to that previous mix), and even the far future (Mills/Hodges/Weglarz?!), so I really can’t see Carp coming here unless he’s additional trade bait or they really want increased depth (possibly allowing another trade that would include Mills, or possibly Garko, though Carp likely won’t be ready for another 1-2 seasons, and there would still be the other 1B options we have, so I still find Carp to be included to be unlikely, probably the most unlikely of the three names mentioned).

Could Carp head to Seattle? Perhaps, though I thought Clement was a possibility there, especially since they still have Johjima as well. Like I said before, I’ll be a bit surprised if Carp comes here, only because we have considerable depth at 1B, unless another possible trade is in the works. I’m not sure Carp can play elsewhere (OF, perhaps? Not sure).

The report also mentions that one or more prospects (not named in the report, it would seem) would also be in the deal, but it’s not mentioned who or where they would go.

Just my 2 cents – this is interesting to see who we’ll get – presumably Heilman, perhaps Chavez, perhaps someone else or in addition to one or both of them, though I would suspect Seattle would get the majority of the haul because of Putz’s inclusion in the deal. Who would we get?

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:14 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My thoughts:

1. People saying this is a precursor to a Dunn deal should chill. There’s zero reason to believe Dunn is going to Cleveland. If anything, I can pretty much gurantee he’d choose the Nats over us, and that’s just one team.

…But yeah Dunn would rock.

2. Why are we trading for a reliever? Don’t we already have too many relievers and too few spots? I know Shapiro believes in stacking up his bullpen but damn dude.

3. I think we’re getting Heilman to start for us personally. (As in I think we’ll wind up with Heilman)

4. Regardless of motives, this is a good trade for us. Gutz for two decent players with good upside? I’ll take that anyday of the week. Gutz had great defense but seriously, he wasn’t fufilling his true potential as a part time RF.

5. I think we’re going to be throwing in another decent prospect.

6. I think Shapiro is going to let this 2nd baseman prospect/Barfield/Marte at third duke it out to see who starts next season.

by world dictator on Dec 10, 2008 10:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Obvious precursor to an Adam Dunn signing.

Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.

by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:23 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

what?!?

fyi, rosenthal has changed the entry title “to trying to land putz”

by macasson on Dec 10, 2008 9:23 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

NO NOT GUTZ

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:25 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If we need to unload him to land Dunn, sign me up.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My daydreams about this have a little more Dellucci and a lot les Gutz.

Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.

by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Ugh.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello westbrook,

I’m not enamored with Dunn either, but at the prices that he might go for, he MIGHT be worth a shot, perhaps. I wouldn’t go overboard with him, though. Defensively, you’ll get next-to-nothing from him, but our DH spot is currently being taken by a player who can’t play defense without it hurting him (Hafner), so he will have to play some defense (I presume Grady in CF, Choo in RF, Dunn in LF, with Francisco the 4th OFer?)

Dunn is the type that can carry a team when he’s hot, but also get quite cold for extended periods. If we do sign him, I hope he has more hot streaks and can keep the cold streaks to a minimum, with better contact rates.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

not as cheap as the #1 defensive OF in baseball who I believe will hit well this year.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:36 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Is there a reason to believe that? Dunn is a known, and very, very good, quantity. Dunn has a career OPS+ of 130, Gutz of 86. Gutz has a career high OBP of .318. I really am not seeing how he is any more valuable than Dunn would be. What is the argument?

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The late stretch last year, and a couple stretches in 07.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ll take seven years of fantastic output over that. It’s really not even close. Gutz will never, ever be the hitter that Dunn is. He will struggle to be half the hitter Dunn is and all the defense in the world can’t make up for that.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes. I want this deal to happen, I think.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am very low on Gutz as anything but a great 4th OF.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And I’m willing to trade away our defensive replacement for short-term help.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Rotoworld

Sources told FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal that the Mets could be close to landing J.J. Putz in a three-team deal also involving the Indians.
Rosenthal has Aaron Heilman, Endy Chavez, Mike Carp and Franklin Gutierrez in the deal, but doesn’t know who is going where. We’re guessing that Heilman would go to Cleveland as the return for Gutierrez, who would be penciled in as Seattle’s center fielder. Chavez and Carp would likely go to Seattle as well. Chavez is no asset at his salary, but Carp is an intriguing first base prospect and Gutierrez has quite a bit of upside. It still doesn’t seem like enough of a return for Putz. Dec. 10 – 9:07 pm et

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:33 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Castrovince sez

The particulars of the deal were still being worked out Wednesday night at the Bellagio, but it appears Franklin Gutierrez is headed to the M’s, and Mets right-handed reliever Joe Smith and Mariners infielder Luis Valbuena are coming to Cleveland.

Mets right-hander Aaron Heilman and Mariners outfielder Jeremy Reed are also believed to be involved, though it is unclear who is headed where.

by FredOx on Dec 10, 2008 9:33 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

can I swear, Jay?

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Now I am just confused.

Either way, are we getting enough of a return for Gutz?

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Gutz would be more valuable to a team playing him in CF, which won’t happen in Cleveland as long as Sizemore is here (that’s for the next 3-4 seasons).

Gutz’s value isn’t what it once was, so we likely won’t get a boatload for him. Still, a quality reliever like Smith, who will be just 25-YO in March, with 2 solid seasons in the MLs is still decent value, along with a middle infielder who could be solid defensively, but doesn’t appear to be much of an offensive force, though he is only 23-YO.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I mean this from the bottom of my Ohioan heart.

Who the hell is Aaron Heilman.

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A league average reliever.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What the hell do we need another reliever for?

by bewwolv on Dec 10, 2008 9:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t believe we might have traded Gutierrez for a reliever who is well, a reliever.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:39 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look at the 22-year old 2B.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was about to… I’d better be blown away.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You won’t be. But seriously. Gutz is not that valuable.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

On second thought, these Venezualan infielders from the M’s seem to work out pretty well.
Luis Valbuena:

.381 .483 .864 in 240 AB @ AA
.383 .373 .756 in 212 AB @ AAA

by bewwolv on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but this isn’t Bavasi we’re dealing with.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Valbuena looks like an interested dude. He’s young (22) with minor league numbers that say…I’m not good at evaluating them.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Actually… his age 22 minors season looks pretty similar to droobs’ age 21

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So are we getting him to hand him the 2B job?

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Would be hard to imagine..

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Target of opportunity for Shap on Gutz’s value, then, is I guess what this deal is.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah..it doesn’t mean he isn’t getting him for the 2B job in 2010. I don’t think they’d hand the job to such an inexperienced guy.

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I just checked – he was pretty meh until last year, age 22: AA: .304/.381/.483 (240 abs), AAA: .302/.383/.373 (212 abs)

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don’t forget that Carlos Santana looked pretty “meh” (which actually was added to the Dictionary as an official word I seen in an online entry a few days ago) until last season.

I’m not saying Valbuena is the next Santana, but sometimes, it takes guys a little while to figure it out. I suspect though that Valbuena is being acquired more for defense and as a throw-in, with the hope that he can become a decent offensive player, particularly with getting on base and showing some speed.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

at this point I’m hoping Santana is the next Santana…

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I bagged on Gutz a little bit earlier, but now that’s he’s gone, to continue Fleerdon’s brutally honest girlfriend remark, I feel a little queasy, a la just realizing post-dumping that your ex-gf’s hooking up with some other dude.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:38 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Haha, lots more where that came from. “Getting over her” and “finding someone new” are the exact same thing. “I’m waiting til I’m over her” means “I’m too scared and lazy to put my line back in the pond.”

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looks like I just got over him – er, “her” – valbuena actually might be pretty decent

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed, but knowing Shap, this can’t be the 2nd base solution THIS year, can it?

by bewwolv on Dec 10, 2008 9:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

knowing Wedge, he’ll sit on the ML bench for 150 games.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I feel as if Gutz is the girlfriend you generally found really boring in day to day life, but was crazy good in the bed

by APV on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hire this girlfriend

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:22 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I figure he’s more like the girlfriend who’s really good at the kinky stuff but isn’t all that hot to look at.

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but Gutz’s defense was so sexy…he was just never able to put it together with other skills to make it work for Cleveland

by APV on Dec 10, 2008 11:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you make it sound like the girlfriend who’s really hot but can’t quite figure out how to get her teeth out of the way

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I always thought he would end up in a National League setting with his so-so batting and good fielding.

by cclemens31 on Dec 10, 2008 11:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you’re saying there’s some other kind?

by emil minty on Dec 10, 2008 11:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Detroit Tigers are set to acquire right-hander Edwin Jackson from the Tampa Bay Rays for outfielder Matt Joyce, according to a major-league source. — Ed Price

Rosenthal

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:38 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Jackson would have been nice for Gutierrez.

by odradek on Dec 10, 2008 9:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the feelings on Gutz could prompt this thread to pass, or at least maintain, a comment/minute ratio for the next hour.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My roommate is a huge mets fans (the biggest I know). When I first opened this thread, I went to his room to see what he had to say about Heilman. His reaction was very passive – said that he had good stuff but never got it together. I just went back to his room, poked my head in and said, “Actually, I think we’re getting Joe Smith”. His reaction: “F***!”

I don’t know what that means, but I hope we’re getting Smith instead of Heilman.

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:40 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heilman Era + Last 4 years
2005- 130
2006- 120
2007- 140
2008- 81

Smith ERA+ Last 2 years
2007- 123
2008- 118

Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.

by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello VG,

I was going to say that Heilman has more of a track record, but faltered in 2008, though I’m not sure if he was dealing with an injury or not. It seems to me that the media often mentions him, making him seem to be better than he really is. He’s solid, but I don’t think he’s that significantly better than most quality relievers.

Smith has less of a track record, but is also younger and could be on an upswing. Only time will tell.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I trust Shap not to waste a quality player like Gutz, but it’s tough to tell what kind of need he’s trying to fill here. I think this is going to tie into either a second trade or another major free agent signing now that we have an outfield roster spot freed up.

Does anyone know anything about Valbuena’s upside? He’s a 22 year old 2b/SS with a .751 career minor league OPS. Joe Smith just seems like an average reliever. Yeah, I don’t get it, I doubt this is near final.

by Pronk33 on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe this is all he can get for Gutz. It wouldn’t surprise me, honestly.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but the Mariners are trading their CLOSER for Gutierrez. That is some indication of his value.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No, an indication of how terrible the Mariners are.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Don’t look at his minors numbers as a composite and you might be as pumped as me right now.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am not pumped. I am not happy with my team today.

Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF

by jhon on Dec 10, 2008 10:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I found him in BA’s 2007 handbook.

They say he handles the bat well, draws walks and has some pull-side power which should be more evident as he gets stronger. He’s a below-average runner, with solid yet unspectacular defense. Later in the season the M’s were positive about the improvements he’s made in the field.

This is all before the 08 season which seems to be his best so far (.813 OPS). Not sure if he’s gotten better on defense, but his upside could be a solid #2 hitter with pretty good defense. His floor is probably as a utility infielder (much like Carroll)

by JP_Frost on Dec 10, 2008 9:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Thank you, that was very helpful.

by Pronk33 on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Joe Smith is no joke folks

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 9:43 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What have you heard about him?

by Pronk33 on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

he was off and on one of my fantasy teams last year

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 9:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Ah. Yeah, looking at Vanilla Gorilla’s stat line above I take back my “average reliever” comment. He’s at least better than that.

by Pronk33 on Dec 10, 2008 9:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what this means:
More Benfran
More Looch

:x

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:44 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

NO! NO! NO!

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And more Carroll, for the hell of it.

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

you take that back right now

by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 9:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can’t, sir. We’re not getting Dunn. And that makes me happy. Sign me up for Early Laporta over him.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A. How do you know?
B. Why not? Beyond a 1950’s ish aversion to K’s, you haven’t said why you don’t want him.

Try this

1. Sizemore
2. Choo
3. Martinez
4. Dunn
5. Pronk
6. Jhonny
7. Garko
8. Asdrubal
9. Third baseman

That is a great lineup with pretty solid defense all told.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

1st of all, replace PRONK with travis.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Travis bats 7th. Pronk bats 5th.

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pronk hits 35 homers, travis hits .210

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Stop pussyfooting around and answer the Dunn question.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe he enjoys messing with Texas.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would rather have a guy who I can count on day in and day out than a guy who hits a grand slam once every 2 weeks and hits homers at times that may or may not mean a damn thing.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So, nothing rational then.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You can’t count on Gutz. Not at all. You can count on Dunn being on base at a greater rate than any current Indian and hitting for more power than any current Indian. Is that not good enough? The “grand slam once every two weeks” is disingenuous and not at all a reflection of reality. Sorry.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 10:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We need more people like you so we can sign Dunn for 2/$15 or something.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ll take 12 grand slams from Dunn.

by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 10:11 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeayeayea

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and hits homers at times that may or may not mean a damn thing.

Really brutal. I’m not even convinced this isn’t satire. You’ve proven to be too smart to be this stupid.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 1:50 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I DONT LIKE ADAM DUNN. PERIOD.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 1:47 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Then just understand I’m writing it off as irrational. Which is cool. But won’t be taken seriously.

by Voltaire on Dec 11, 2008 2:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If he’s such this big slugger who can carry a team, why does he have 0 career postseason ABs?

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 4:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So I can mark you down for:

1. selfish empty home runs
2. real players single-handedly get their teams to the playoffs

Did I miss anything?

by Voltaire on Dec 11, 2008 4:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ll take him hitting to his projections (Marcel/James, whichever) any day.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we talked about this earlier, but Pronk’s projections are meaningless

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know that, I just said that I would take him doing that. I think we all know the value of projections.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Pronk’s projections**, not projections in general.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:57 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Projections in general have their flaws. Pronk’s are more problematic than most but they still reflect a projection based on numbers he has put up.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

From my (limited) understand, projections can’t “see” injuries, and probably the most mysterious injury in baseball right now is Pronks’.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Definitely. We can all agree that an .880 OPS would be nice to see though, can’t we?

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 10:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ll take Early LaPorta, just hoping that Dellucci never starts a game for the Tribe next year.

by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

rec

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 9:04 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow, if this means we land Dunn, I’m so jazzed up right now it’s crazy

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:47 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

/Antonetti pacing in office.

“Sunuvagunsunuvagunsunuvagun ALL RIGHT LET’S GO GET HIM!!!!!!!”

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

I’m still not following why anyone is tying this move to Dunn – are you thinking this frees up an OF spot?

by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 9:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s what Dunn people are thinking. Still don’t know if I’m a Dunn person.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 9:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it has to. Gutz is our 3rd best OF.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was joking earlier. I don’t really see it happening at all but i would love to have Adam Dunn at a reasonable price. I don’t see this alone having much effect on us getting him.

Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.

by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wonder if we could justify signing Dunn for his offense, then signing an infielder strictly for his defense. I just really want Dunn, but I’m afraid an extra outfielder is too low on the shopping list this year, even if he is a 40 HR, OBP machine.

by Pronk33 on Dec 10, 2008 9:51 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s the problem with Dunn – virtually no defense. BenFran is arguably a better OFer than Dunn, and I’m not sure Dellucci is worse than Dunn.

Therefore, I too wonder whether Dunn is really on the radar or not – BenFran may get regular playing time, if for no other reason, than to replace Dunn in the late innings, since I’d rather have BenFran in the OF (LF probably) than Dunn any day of the week.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BenFran is a pretty lame hitter though, no way his mediocre defense makes up for that. His VORP of 0 isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement of him.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

benfran’s D is almost identical to Dunn’s

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which is why having him out there instead of Dunn (if he is a legitimate option) would be despair inducing.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 9:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you suggesting that or do you have verifiable proof of that?

BenFran’s range to me seems much better than Dunn’s, and BenFran has played CF in the Minors (not great, but passable enough to play many games out there); Dunn has not.

Guys, BenFran is NOT a problem as a 4th OF – we certainly could do worse (Dellucci, for one). Additionally, BenFran and Gutierrez had comparable OPS in the last few seasons – upper-700s, low-800s, so essentially, you have almost the same hitter. Put Francisco down in the lower part of the order if that is the only option we have, and we certainly could do worse.

The question with Dunn is, can we get him for a price that will make it worth our while to live through his lengthy slumps and strikeout barrages? And, like I said before, I’d still take BenFran late in the game over Dunn in the OF – BenFran has speed and can cover some ground; I have not seen that from Dunn. And being that the Indians are focusing more on defense in the late innings, I suspect the Indians will do that (substitute BenFran for Dunn) late in games when we are in close games. BenFran has enough bat to be useful at least as a 4th-Ofer – he’s shown as much as Gutierrez with the bat in the last few seasons.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

neither of them plays balls in the air very well, and both have good arms.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Showing as much as Gutz with the bat is hardly a ringing endorsement. He would certainly be better than Dunn in the field but he is not nearly the hitter.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 10:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Uh, Benfran does NOT have speed. Past 2 seasons: 4/9 sbs.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BPro’s Equivalent Base Running Runs thinks he is a pretty good base runner.

by ClarkM on Dec 10, 2008 10:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay, granted, but you can be a good base runner – and have decent range (which he doesn’t) – without being deemed as having speed.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Speed means nothing if it doesn’t translate. Ben, according to some metrics, is pretty decent in categories that speed is normally associated with, so for baseball terms, he kind of does have speed.

by ClarkM on Dec 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Being a good base runner doesn’t have a lot to do with speed. I’m pretty sure Victor is considered by Bill James to be a good base runner.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 1:52 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“If you never attempt to steal, they can’t catch ya.”

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 9:06 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello joeee,

Small sample size; in his Minor League career, BenFran is 124/158, a 78.5% success rate.

And, as others have mentioned, SBs is not the end-all to determine whether you have speed or not. BenFran, by most accounts, has the characteristics of good speed; he just needs to refine his base-running technique at the ML level, plus 9 SB attempts is hardly enough of a sample size to even begin to determine whether BenFran can steal bases at the ML level.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:41 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Granted again, but SB is influenced by the decision to send a guy – which is correlated to how the team views his speed.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

He has a little speed. Speedy guys are the ones who are allowed to run at all.

Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF

by jhon on Dec 10, 2008 11:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Are you banking on LaPorta breaking out?

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess Dunn could be used a 1st baseman, but I remember reading about him no wanting to play there.

by JP_Frost on Dec 10, 2008 9:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Dunn’s 2008 UZR was -20, with a VORP of 27.2.

BenFran had a -4.3 UZR, with a 10.7 VORP.

Dellucci had a -8.8 UZR, with a 0.3 VORP.

So, Dunn was only 0.8 runs better than BenFran last season? Did I do that right? I think I just blew up my own bandwagon….

by Pronk33 on Dec 10, 2008 10:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PMR and RZR really like Francisco’s defense.

by ClarkM on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

we’re not signing Dunn. Signing him to a 2-3 year deal means we’d eventually be facing a situation where we have Hafner, Dunn, Laporta, Mills and Weglarz – all potentially with the bats to play, and no defensive abilities at all

by APV on Dec 10, 2008 10:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe we start lobbying heavily to add two more DH’s.

by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’s assuming that Laporta, Mills and Weglarz all pan out, and Hafner is still around, and that none of them get hurt. A 2/$18 deal would not be bad for us at all.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 11:18 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m assuming Hafner’s contract is still around.

by APV on Dec 10, 2008 11:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I definite support signing Adam Dunn for eighteen dollars.

by FredOx on Dec 11, 2008 8:42 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

2/$18m would be outrageously fantastic.

I think we all might have a bit of priapism after the Wood contract.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 9:07 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Looks like Valbuena played with Asdrubal for 3 games. Maybe they were such a killer DP the tribe wanted to reunite.

Speaking of which, what is with the Mariner’s promoting these young guys to AAA for the end of their A/A+ seasons? Looks like Asdrubal stuck in AAA while Valbuena started the next year (2006) back in A ball.

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I should add, those 3 games were in 2005 in AAA Tacoma.

by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m guessing it’s due to the logistics – their SS A-ball team is in Everett, WA, while their AAA team is in Tacoma, WA. However, their AA team is in West Tenn. (not sure if it was in San Antonio in 2005 – I keep thinking it was), but either way, their AAA team is closer to their SS team than their AA team is.

All the more advantage why our Minor League teams, outside of Kinston and the AZL indians are so close together, and even closer together with the move to Columbus. We don’t have to resort to moving our guys from SS-A Mahoning Valley to AAA Columbus (or Buffalo in the past), since we have Low-A Lake County within a few earshots of MV.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 9:59 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Some early thoughts. Joe Smith gets tons of ground balls, like Fausto Style, but he’s a match-up guy. Pretty large platoon split. Not much service time.

Valbuena is interesting. He is 22, controls the strike zone well, which means he hits for a good average and draws walks. Little power, but he’s still young so it may get better. The defense is a mystery.

On Gutz, he’s more valuable to teams that need a center fielder. It makes sense to trade him, especially because the difference between Gutz and Ben isn’t likely to be that great. WARP3 had them about equal value last year. Yes, it includes FRAA, but I think FRAA has it right with these two.

by ClarkM on Dec 10, 2008 9:54 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And Gutz is even more valuable when you have an outfield like Safeco.

by bewwolv on Dec 10, 2008 9:58 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

god, and I wanted to get to bed at a reasonable hour tonight.

by ASP on Dec 10, 2008 9:59 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’ve got an exam on Friday! Jesus, Shapiro. A little help here?

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah, me too. And two more next week.

by ClarkM on Dec 10, 2008 10:03 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was thinking, “I’ll just check LGT and then get to the giant stack of grading I need to do….” apparently not for a while.

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe Wood deal has gone south, and Putz is coming to Cleveland.

by odradek on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All places reporting this deal (which admittedly may have the same source) have Putz going to the Mets.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:01 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Also, just a general comment, I would’ve thought that the Mariners could get a better package for Putz

by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would’ve thought many things about the Mariners. They usually don’t come true.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did you think Carlos Silva would suck?

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:02 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Your wishes do come true.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:04 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As foolish as the Silva deal was, he suffered some pretty bad luck last year. He should bounce back some next year.

by ClarkM on Dec 10, 2008 10:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

To me it seems like we’re getting the short end of the stick if this deal goes through. Maybe we’re overrating Gutz a little, but getting a fringe middle infield prospect and a righthanded LOOGY seems a bit meh.

I always thought that building a package around Shoppach and Gutz would net us something more.

by JP_Frost on Dec 10, 2008 10:02 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quote from lookout landing:

“I really really really don’t want to trade Valbuena”

They’re livid over there. Hahahahaha

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:04 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

PLEASE LET THIS TRADE HAPPEN THEN

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

do they have some more info on him?

by JP_Frost on Dec 10, 2008 10:05 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At least they agree with me on the Jackson/Joyce deal.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:06 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the replys aren’t all in agreement tho.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:08 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

which is probably the same thing they’re saying about Gutz after reading this thread.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 10, 2008 10:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe they’re afraid because of how Cabrera is developing for us.

I wasn’t sure if Valbuena could develop the offense, but heck, he still seems young enough where he could be a decent-enough hitter, and I’d presume he would be sent to AAA Columbus (does he still have options or not?)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:44 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know most of us are meh over Gutz, but hell if teams are ready to “pencil” him in as their starting centrefielder, then I want the world for him gosh darnit.

by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:12 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

haha woah woah woah, whatfielder?

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

rec

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Mariners are ready to do that, and are the Mariners exactly a pinnacle of smart baseball decisions?

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:13 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yeah I guess. But we’re talking about the leading candidate for MVP on March 31/08 here. Tell me that’s not worth something….oh wait, it’s not? Shoot.

by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that was a good day

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Assuming Smith lands here, there has to be another trade coming, right? There would be entirely too many relievers that other teams would have interest in.

by Fundamentals on Dec 10, 2008 10:13 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We said this when we signed Dellucci

by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:15 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

i think that was Nixon

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:16 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Did we? Shap said that deal was unexpected but basically a perfect opportunity. At the time it felt “complete” on its own to me.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Perhaps the Indians don’t want to rush Adam Miller out of the gate; admittedly, though, even without Miller, I’d think we’d still be pushing our limit, though the removal of Mastny might be enough to account for the inclusion of Smith.

I still think they want to take it easy with Miller and not rely on him too early, even if he does well in ST. Perhaps they want him to go to Buffalo to get into a rhythm of working out of the bullpen for a little bit, then bring him up. By then, something might emerge (a trade or releasing someone).

Or we could package a reliever and Dellucci – maybe we could get something. (I partly jest. :-)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:46 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

too early, too hazy to comment

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but i’m gonna miss Gutz

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That mid-May doubleheader against the Jays catch in the 9th was intense!

by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 10:19 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

as long as ben fran is not the starting LF in 2009 i’m OK

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heilman would be heading to Cleveland
According to the Newark StarLedger.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

oops.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:20 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

USS Mariner says Heilman demanded a trade so he could be a starter.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

yeah, this makes no sense on our end unless we’re trading sowers or … Laffey God no

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:23 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I thought Heilman had mentioned that last year – could we be looking to acquire Heilman to be our 3rd starter? I’m not sure how that would turn out – it would depend on what we’d have to give up to get him.

The last time he started a game was back in 2005, and hasn’t had 10 or more ML starts in a season since 2004. Hmm… I hope he works out for us if that is the plan.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:48 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Most reports say Heilman to Mariners now.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:50 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I first read that as “could we be looking to acquire Heliman to be our 3rd baseman”… I was thinking, “that’s….some outside the box thinking there…”

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

though it would be cooler if he had one of those gadget propeller thingies

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

lol to these last three posts

by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 11:37 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Quick glance at bref – kinda looks like Valbuena plays a slick 2b. Oh boy.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:18 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m finding some more comments on Valbuena (made by fans, but hey, look how much knowledge we drop in these threads). Alot of people like him, both as a hitter and as a fielder. He supposedly made strides in the field and has a good approach at the plate. In fact, he’s almost major league ready.

Of course we’ll have to know more about this deal, but I’m starting to like this kid.

by JP_Frost on Dec 10, 2008 10:20 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think there’s several players missing here, going in every direction, but especially to the Mariners and the Mets. Those players might be prospects but, for us, they’ll change the meaning of the deal. My six cents.

by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

a little presumptuous of you to think that this comment is worth three of indiansfan’s comments… and given its relative brevity, it’s quite a strong claim per word…

by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:34 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no, Google I “did not mean astroturf.”

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:21 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

This tells me he would be a good replacement for Jamey Carrol next year, not a second baseman of the future.

by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:24 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

At the plate, he’s intelligent. Compared to the rest of these losers, anyway. He has a pretty compact line drive stroke, but more than that, he doesn’t swing at many bad pitches. While he only collected 49 at bats, his 22% swing rate on balls out of the zone was the best on the team, and his (small sample) approach was comparable to those of Mark Ellis and Jason Kubel. In other words, he’s not a guy who’s going to get himself out as often as a Yuniesky Betancourt or Jose Lopez. He knows he doesn’t have the most punishing bat in the world, so he’s compensated for that by developing a good eye and the ability to hit for a decent average. Those are valuable skills.

Well at least Shap would be going after a guy who fits the hitting philosophy of the club. Doesn’t exactly excite me though.

by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hello Mario,

Contact guys can be useful – having a team full of mashers or guys with high-strikeout totals need to be compensated with guys who are strong on fundamentals.

Granted, we don’t have exactly a team full of mashers or guys with high-strikeout totals (not extreme strikeout totals, anyways), but adding a guy like that, especially if he is more of a utility guy, is not a bad move. Those are the types of guys who can do some things off the bench, being that their swings aren’t as likely to fall into slumps (as compared to someone like Marte, who has that long swing).

Besides that, I think they’re getting Valbuena more for his defense, with the hope he can become that type of offensive player that is described. Besides, we still have need for a #2 hitter on this team – perhaps Valbuena is that future #2 (in the lineup, that is).

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:52 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

“Well, we need some contact guys to go along with our mashers. Granted, we don’t have any mashers.”

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:54 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Heyman is reporting that it’s a very large trade:

LAS VEGAS — The Mets, Indians and Mariners are discussing a 12-player trade in which Seattle reliever J.J. Putz would go to the Mets. In the deal being discussed, the Mets would surrender six players, including outfielder Endy Chavez, relief pitcher Aaron Heilman and first base prospect Mike Carp. The Indians would be giving up rightfielder Franklin Gutierrez.

Either we’re getting Chavez or the Mariners are going to have an absurd defensive outfield.

by vegaswatch on Dec 10, 2008 10:23 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LOL

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can only assume that you actually would use the word “categorically” during a bar fight as well.

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tyler, we’ve got to get out of here categorically. But before that happens, help me with this chair…

by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I would, but I categorically stole a bottle of Tanq 10 during the mayhem and I’m hoping to make off with it.

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:32 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

still depends on the quality.

i’m not giving up one dortmunder gold for 2 rolling rocks and a budweiser product to be named later.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 10, 2008 10:42 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

have to qualify that i’m not calling Gutz a dortmunder gold… just commenting on the general theory.

You know Selig? Ombudsman.

by rolub on Dec 10, 2008 10:43 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That sounds like a bonanza for us! :-)

Heck, we don’t even know the players we’d be getting yet – they could be named Tom, Dick, and Harry. Or Frick, Frack, and Frock. Sounds good to me! :-)

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:53 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

there’s no way its a 12 player deal and we’re only giving up one player

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It’s Shapiro and the Mariners.

by fwembt on Dec 10, 2008 10:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And this is what we need to remember. And why I am crazy-exceited.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I chuckled out loud. A COL.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A Circle of Losers? I believe that’s the definition of 45 people on LGT posting frantically about a 4th OF being dealt for a AAAA 2B.

Self included.

by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

no, sir… a Chuckle Out Loud.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know. I am kidding.

JESUS JOEEEEEZ I AM KIDDING.

by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like replying to things as they appear, even if I’m not replying to them.

by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:33 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the capz are a nice touch, hafta admit

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:38 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

AAAA 2B? How do you figure?

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That’d be my instinctive response too. I need some time to think this over.

This thread has huge unintentional comic-tragedy potential for down the road.

Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF

by jhon on Dec 10, 2008 11:07 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

bleeeehhh, don’t say that.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 11:09 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Consider my enthusiasm tempered. Thanks, debbie downer.

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 11:12 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I’m not going ANYWHERE

by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

As opposed to a CIMHK, chuckling in my head kinda.

by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:30 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

or a new printing technique utilizing Cyan, Indigo, Magenta, ummm, and Black.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hazel, per google.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:35 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Okay I’m only halfway down catching up with this thread and I’ve seen this a lot.

IT’S A NEW FRONT OFFICE. With a smart guy. We’re not ripping Shapiro for turning down the Pedro-for-Wright trade.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 1:59 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

A gold-glove caliber cf’er?

by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 10:26 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think Andrew and vegaswatch were kidding – we certainly are not getting 12 players and are likely giving up more than Gutz; otherwise, we likely will only get 1-2 minor players in return and be mostly an accessory to this trade, not so much an equal partner.

Just my 2 cents.

The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.

by indiansfan on Dec 10, 2008 10:55 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was being quite serious, Heyman reported it was a 12-player trade.

by vegaswatch on Dec 10, 2008 10:56 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

LAS VEGAS — The Indians reportedly will also be including David Dellucci in the package to the Mariners.

by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM EST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Someone posted this on LL. You’re gonna be killed.

by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Until you link that I assume it’s a joke.

by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

THAT IS NOT EVEN FUNNY MARIO I ALMOST PEED MYSELF

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:28 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

but what about Marte? Can we attach him to Benfran and hope SEA sees it as = to Gutz?

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:29 PM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs