Tribe 3 way trade per ROSENTHAL
8:46 p.m. — Mets close to landing Putz
The Mets are close to landing a setup man for new closer Francisco Rodriguez — and that setup man is another closer from the American League West.J.J. Putz appears headed to the Mets in a three-team trade with the Mariners and Indians.
Mets right-hander Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first-base prospect Mike Carp are in the deal, as is Indians outfielder Franklin Gutierrez.
It is not yet clear which players are headed where.
UPDATED 10:19 p.m. — Mets working to acquire Putz
Under terms of the deal, the Mets would get Putz, outfielder Jeremy Reed and reliever Sean Green from Seattle. The Mariners would receive reliever Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first baseman Mike Carp from the Mets. They'd also get Franklin Gutierrez from the Indians and minor leaguers. The Indians would get reliever Joe Smith from the Mets and infielder Luis Valbuena from Seattle.
about 3 years ago
volapuk
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meh, we’d be receiving someone back from the Mets, I get excited too easily
by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder who that would be?
Like I said, Carp would seem unlikely – he’s a solid prospect from what I’ve heard and read (though I haven’t heard as much about him over the past season), but we have a LOT of depth at that position, and likely will for at least the next 4-5 years, based on my post below.
Fernando Martinez? That’s probably unlikely, as Gutierrez would likely not be enough to fetch him. Is there a starting pitching prospect (Jon Niese, who is from Defiance HS in Defiance, Ohio? See this link) we could maybe get from the Mets.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hmm… that could be a possibility, depending on the price, but I’m not sure just including Gutierrez would be enough to get that done, though maybe since Beltre only has 1 year left on his contract.
However, if Rosenthal is correct, it sounds like there are additional prospects that are unnamed, so Beltre wouldn’t qualify there, unless the negotiations turn toward Beltre, but maybe that’s why the Indians are involved in the first place in this proposed deal?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Hello volapuk,
This is the link to that report.
If I had to guess, the only one that would make sense for us of those names mentioned would be Heilman, probably for the bullpen (unless they planned to make him a starter again, which I think he wanted to be, didn’t he, or am I incorrect?) Then again, he could just as easily go to Seattle since they’ll need a quality arm in the bullpen to help replace Putz (though Heilman is not at that level).
I suppose Chavez could be a possibility as well, though he’s more of a speed guy that probably is best as a 4th-OFer/defensive replacement-type rather than a starter. I’m not sure he’d fill in for Gutierrez if that is the idea. Again, though, perhaps he’s off to Seattle.
I don’t see how Carp is involved – we allowed Brown to be left off the 40-man roster because we already have a lot of 1B options, both now (Garko/Martinez/Hafner/Aubrey), the near future (add LaPorta to that previous mix), and even the far future (Mills/Hodges/Weglarz?!), so I really can’t see Carp coming here unless he’s additional trade bait or they really want increased depth (possibly allowing another trade that would include Mills, or possibly Garko, though Carp likely won’t be ready for another 1-2 seasons, and there would still be the other 1B options we have, so I still find Carp to be included to be unlikely, probably the most unlikely of the three names mentioned).
Could Carp head to Seattle? Perhaps, though I thought Clement was a possibility there, especially since they still have Johjima as well. Like I said before, I’ll be a bit surprised if Carp comes here, only because we have considerable depth at 1B, unless another possible trade is in the works. I’m not sure Carp can play elsewhere (OF, perhaps? Not sure).
The report also mentions that one or more prospects (not named in the report, it would seem) would also be in the deal, but it’s not mentioned who or where they would go.
Just my 2 cents – this is interesting to see who we’ll get – presumably Heilman, perhaps Chavez, perhaps someone else or in addition to one or both of them, though I would suspect Seattle would get the majority of the haul because of Putz’s inclusion in the deal. Who would we get?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
My thoughts:
1. People saying this is a precursor to a Dunn deal should chill. There’s zero reason to believe Dunn is going to Cleveland. If anything, I can pretty much gurantee he’d choose the Nats over us, and that’s just one team.
…But yeah Dunn would rock.
2. Why are we trading for a reliever? Don’t we already have too many relievers and too few spots? I know Shapiro believes in stacking up his bullpen but damn dude.
3. I think we’re getting Heilman to start for us personally. (As in I think we’ll wind up with Heilman)
4. Regardless of motives, this is a good trade for us. Gutz for two decent players with good upside? I’ll take that anyday of the week. Gutz had great defense but seriously, he wasn’t fufilling his true potential as a part time RF.
5. I think we’re going to be throwing in another decent prospect.
6. I think Shapiro is going to let this 2nd baseman prospect/Barfield/Marte at third duke it out to see who starts next season.
by world dictator on Dec 10, 2008 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
Obvious precursor to an Adam Dunn signing.
Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:23 PM EST reply actions
My daydreams about this have a little more Dellucci and a lot les Gutz.
Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Hello westbrook,
I’m not enamored with Dunn either, but at the prices that he might go for, he MIGHT be worth a shot, perhaps. I wouldn’t go overboard with him, though. Defensively, you’ll get next-to-nothing from him, but our DH spot is currently being taken by a player who can’t play defense without it hurting him (Hafner), so he will have to play some defense (I presume Grady in CF, Choo in RF, Dunn in LF, with Francisco the 4th OFer?)
Dunn is the type that can carry a team when he’s hot, but also get quite cold for extended periods. If we do sign him, I hope he has more hot streaks and can keep the cold streaks to a minimum, with better contact rates.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
not as cheap as the #1 defensive OF in baseball who I believe will hit well this year.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Is there a reason to believe that? Dunn is a known, and very, very good, quantity. Dunn has a career OPS+ of 130, Gutz of 86. Gutz has a career high OBP of .318. I really am not seeing how he is any more valuable than Dunn would be. What is the argument?
The late stretch last year, and a couple stretches in 07.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Rotoworld
Sources told FOXSports.com’s Ken Rosenthal that the Mets could be close to landing J.J. Putz in a three-team deal also involving the Indians.
Rosenthal has Aaron Heilman, Endy Chavez, Mike Carp and Franklin Gutierrez in the deal, but doesn’t know who is going where. We’re guessing that Heilman would go to Cleveland as the return for Gutierrez, who would be penciled in as Seattle’s center fielder. Chavez and Carp would likely go to Seattle as well. Chavez is no asset at his salary, but Carp is an intriguing first base prospect and Gutierrez has quite a bit of upside. It still doesn’t seem like enough of a return for Putz. Dec. 10 – 9:07 pm et
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
The particulars of the deal were still being worked out Wednesday night at the Bellagio, but it appears Franklin Gutierrez is headed to the M’s, and Mets right-handed reliever Joe Smith and Mariners infielder Luis Valbuena are coming to Cleveland.Mets right-hander Aaron Heilman and Mariners outfielder Jeremy Reed are also believed to be involved, though it is unclear who is headed where.
can I swear, Jay?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now I am just confused.
Either way, are we getting enough of a return for Gutz?
by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:35 PM EST up reply actions
Gutz would be more valuable to a team playing him in CF, which won’t happen in Cleveland as long as Sizemore is here (that’s for the next 3-4 seasons).
Gutz’s value isn’t what it once was, so we likely won’t get a boatload for him. Still, a quality reliever like Smith, who will be just 25-YO in March, with 2 solid seasons in the MLs is still decent value, along with a middle infielder who could be solid defensively, but doesn’t appear to be much of an offensive force, though he is only 23-YO.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I mean this from the bottom of my Ohioan heart.
Who the hell is Aaron Heilman.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t believe we might have traded Gutierrez for a reliever who is well, a reliever.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Valbuena looks like an interested dude. He’s young (22) with minor league numbers that say…I’m not good at evaluating them.
Yeah..it doesn’t mean he isn’t getting him for the 2B job in 2010. I don’t think they’d hand the job to such an inexperienced guy.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
Wow, droobs is 17 days younger than Valbuena. $$$$$
So, I just went to check asdrubal’s stats at baseballreference.com, and I swear to god I typed in “droobs” into the search query and it took me a second to realize why I got no results
by joeee on Dec 10, 2008 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
I just checked – he was pretty meh until last year, age 22: AA: .304/.381/.483 (240 abs), AAA: .302/.383/.373 (212 abs)
Don’t forget that Carlos Santana looked pretty “meh” (which actually was added to the Dictionary as an official word I seen in an online entry a few days ago) until last season.
I’m not saying Valbuena is the next Santana, but sometimes, it takes guys a little while to figure it out. I suspect though that Valbuena is being acquired more for defense and as a throw-in, with the hope that he can become a decent offensive player, particularly with getting on base and showing some speed.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
at this point I’m hoping Santana is the next Santana…
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions
I bagged on Gutz a little bit earlier, but now that’s he’s gone, to continue Fleerdon’s brutally honest girlfriend remark, I feel a little queasy, a la just realizing post-dumping that your ex-gf’s hooking up with some other dude.
Haha, lots more where that came from. “Getting over her” and “finding someone new” are the exact same thing. “I’m waiting til I’m over her” means “I’m too scared and lazy to put my line back in the pond.”
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST up reply actions
I feel as if Gutz is the girlfriend you generally found really boring in day to day life, but was crazy good in the bed
hire this girlfriend
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I figure he’s more like the girlfriend who’s really good at the kinky stuff but isn’t all that hot to look at.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
but Gutz’s defense was so sexy…he was just never able to put it together with other skills to make it work for Cleveland
you make it sound like the girlfriend who’s really hot but can’t quite figure out how to get her teeth out of the way
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Detroit Tigers are set to acquire right-hander Edwin Jackson from the Tampa Bay Rays for outfielder Matt Joyce, according to a major-league source. — Ed Price
Rosenthal
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
My roommate is a huge mets fans (the biggest I know). When I first opened this thread, I went to his room to see what he had to say about Heilman. His reaction was very passive – said that he had good stuff but never got it together. I just went back to his room, poked my head in and said, “Actually, I think we’re getting Joe Smith”. His reaction: “F***!”
I don’t know what that means, but I hope we’re getting Smith instead of Heilman.
Heilman Era + Last 4 years
2005- 130
2006- 120
2007- 140
2008- 81
Smith ERA+ Last 2 years
2007- 123
2008- 118
Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
Hello VG,
I was going to say that Heilman has more of a track record, but faltered in 2008, though I’m not sure if he was dealing with an injury or not. It seems to me that the media often mentions him, making him seem to be better than he really is. He’s solid, but I don’t think he’s that significantly better than most quality relievers.
Smith has less of a track record, but is also younger and could be on an upswing. Only time will tell.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I trust Shap not to waste a quality player like Gutz, but it’s tough to tell what kind of need he’s trying to fill here. I think this is going to tie into either a second trade or another major free agent signing now that we have an outfield roster spot freed up.
Does anyone know anything about Valbuena’s upside? He’s a 22 year old 2b/SS with a .751 career minor league OPS. Joe Smith just seems like an average reliever. Yeah, I don’t get it, I doubt this is near final.
I found him in BA’s 2007 handbook.
They say he handles the bat well, draws walks and has some pull-side power which should be more evident as he gets stronger. He’s a below-average runner, with solid yet unspectacular defense. Later in the season the M’s were positive about the improvements he’s made in the field.
This is all before the 08 season which seems to be his best so far (.813 OPS). Not sure if he’s gotten better on defense, but his upside could be a solid #2 hitter with pretty good defense. His floor is probably as a utility infielder (much like Carroll)
Luis Valbuena:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/v/valbulu01.shtml
http://www.baseballamerica.com/statistics/players/cards/?pl_id=83780
by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 9:42 PM EST reply actions
I really like the idea of a Mariners" infielder. Considering the track record, i’ll take our chances.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
Joe Smith is no joke folks
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 9:43 PM EST reply actions
he was off and on one of my fantasy teams last year
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 9:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You know what this means:
More Benfran
More Looch
:x
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
NO! NO! NO!
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 9:45 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t, sir. We’re not getting Dunn. And that makes me happy. Sign me up for Early Laporta over him.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
A. How do you know?
B. Why not? Beyond a 1950’s ish aversion to K’s, you haven’t said why you don’t want him.
Try this
1. Sizemore
2. Choo
3. Martinez
4. Dunn
5. Pronk
6. Jhonny
7. Garko
8. Asdrubal
9. Third baseman
That is a great lineup with pretty solid defense all told.
1st of all, replace PRONK with travis.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 9:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Pronk hits 35 homers, travis hits .210
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I would rather have a guy who I can count on day in and day out than a guy who hits a grand slam once every 2 weeks and hits homers at times that may or may not mean a damn thing.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I’ll take 12 grand slams from Dunn.
by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 10:11 PM EST up reply actions
and hits homers at times that may or may not mean a damn thing.
Really brutal. I’m not even convinced this isn’t satire. You’ve proven to be too smart to be this stupid.
Steel Nick
I DONT LIKE ADAM DUNN. PERIOD.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
If he’s such this big slugger who can carry a team, why does he have 0 career postseason ABs?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I know that, I just said that I would take him doing that. I think we all know the value of projections.
Projections in general have their flaws. Pronk’s are more problematic than most but they still reflect a projection based on numbers he has put up.
I’ll take Early LaPorta, just hoping that Dellucci never starts a game for the Tribe next year.
by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
/Antonetti pacing in office.
“Sunuvagunsunuvagunsunuvagun ALL RIGHT LET’S GO GET HIM!!!!!!!”
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 9:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m still not following why anyone is tying this move to Dunn – are you thinking this frees up an OF spot?
by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 9:50 PM EST up reply actions
I was joking earlier. I don’t really see it happening at all but i would love to have Adam Dunn at a reasonable price. I don’t see this alone having much effect on us getting him.
Don't forget to pay your parking ticket.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 PM EST up reply actions
I wonder if we could justify signing Dunn for his offense, then signing an infielder strictly for his defense. I just really want Dunn, but I’m afraid an extra outfielder is too low on the shopping list this year, even if he is a 40 HR, OBP machine.
That’s the problem with Dunn – virtually no defense. BenFran is arguably a better OFer than Dunn, and I’m not sure Dellucci is worse than Dunn.
Therefore, I too wonder whether Dunn is really on the radar or not – BenFran may get regular playing time, if for no other reason, than to replace Dunn in the late innings, since I’d rather have BenFran in the OF (LF probably) than Dunn any day of the week.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
BenFran is a pretty lame hitter though, no way his mediocre defense makes up for that. His VORP of 0 isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement of him.
benfran’s D is almost identical to Dunn’s
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Are you suggesting that or do you have verifiable proof of that?
BenFran’s range to me seems much better than Dunn’s, and BenFran has played CF in the Minors (not great, but passable enough to play many games out there); Dunn has not.
Guys, BenFran is NOT a problem as a 4th OF – we certainly could do worse (Dellucci, for one). Additionally, BenFran and Gutierrez had comparable OPS in the last few seasons – upper-700s, low-800s, so essentially, you have almost the same hitter. Put Francisco down in the lower part of the order if that is the only option we have, and we certainly could do worse.
The question with Dunn is, can we get him for a price that will make it worth our while to live through his lengthy slumps and strikeout barrages? And, like I said before, I’d still take BenFran late in the game over Dunn in the OF – BenFran has speed and can cover some ground; I have not seen that from Dunn. And being that the Indians are focusing more on defense in the late innings, I suspect the Indians will do that (substitute BenFran for Dunn) late in games when we are in close games. BenFran has enough bat to be useful at least as a 4th-Ofer – he’s shown as much as Gutierrez with the bat in the last few seasons.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Okay, granted, but you can be a good base runner – and have decent range (which he doesn’t) – without being deemed as having speed.
Hello joeee,
Small sample size; in his Minor League career, BenFran is 124/158, a 78.5% success rate.
And, as others have mentioned, SBs is not the end-all to determine whether you have speed or not. BenFran, by most accounts, has the characteristics of good speed; he just needs to refine his base-running technique at the ML level, plus 9 SB attempts is hardly enough of a sample size to even begin to determine whether BenFran can steal bases at the ML level.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
we’re not signing Dunn. Signing him to a 2-3 year deal means we’d eventually be facing a situation where we have Hafner, Dunn, Laporta, Mills and Weglarz – all potentially with the bats to play, and no defensive abilities at all
Maybe we start lobbying heavily to add two more DH’s.
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
That’s assuming that Laporta, Mills and Weglarz all pan out, and Hafner is still around, and that none of them get hurt. A 2/$18 deal would not be bad for us at all.
Looks like Valbuena played with Asdrubal for 3 games. Maybe they were such a killer DP the tribe wanted to reunite.
Speaking of which, what is with the Mariner’s promoting these young guys to AAA for the end of their A/A+ seasons? Looks like Asdrubal stuck in AAA while Valbuena started the next year (2006) back in A ball.
I should add, those 3 games were in 2005 in AAA Tacoma.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions
I’m guessing it’s due to the logistics – their SS A-ball team is in Everett, WA, while their AAA team is in Tacoma, WA. However, their AA team is in West Tenn. (not sure if it was in San Antonio in 2005 – I keep thinking it was), but either way, their AAA team is closer to their SS team than their AA team is.
All the more advantage why our Minor League teams, outside of Kinston and the AZL indians are so close together, and even closer together with the move to Columbus. We don’t have to resort to moving our guys from SS-A Mahoning Valley to AAA Columbus (or Buffalo in the past), since we have Low-A Lake County within a few earshots of MV.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Some early thoughts. Joe Smith gets tons of ground balls, like Fausto Style, but he’s a match-up guy. Pretty large platoon split. Not much service time.
Valbuena is interesting. He is 22, controls the strike zone well, which means he hits for a good average and draws walks. Little power, but he’s still young so it may get better. The defense is a mystery.
On Gutz, he’s more valuable to teams that need a center fielder. It makes sense to trade him, especially because the difference between Gutz and Ben isn’t likely to be that great. WARP3 had them about equal value last year. Yes, it includes FRAA, but I think FRAA has it right with these two.
I’ve got an exam on Friday! Jesus, Shapiro. A little help here?
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST up reply actions
I was thinking, “I’ll just check LGT and then get to the giant stack of grading I need to do….” apparently not for a while.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Also, just a general comment, I would’ve thought that the Mariners could get a better package for Putz
by millionairesrow on Dec 10, 2008 10:00 PM EST reply actions
Did you think Carlos Silva would suck?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
To me it seems like we’re getting the short end of the stick if this deal goes through. Maybe we’re overrating Gutz a little, but getting a fringe middle infield prospect and a righthanded LOOGY seems a bit meh.
I always thought that building a package around Shoppach and Gutz would net us something more.
Quote from lookout landing:
“I really really really don’t want to trade Valbuena”
They’re livid over there. Hahahahaha
the replys aren’t all in agreement tho.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Maybe they’re afraid because of how Cabrera is developing for us.
I wasn’t sure if Valbuena could develop the offense, but heck, he still seems young enough where he could be a decent-enough hitter, and I’d presume he would be sent to AAA Columbus (does he still have options or not?)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I know most of us are meh over Gutz, but hell if teams are ready to “pencil” him in as their starting centrefielder, then I want the world for him gosh darnit.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:12 PM EST reply actions
The Mariners are ready to do that, and are the Mariners exactly a pinnacle of smart baseball decisions?
Yeah I guess. But we’re talking about the leading candidate for MVP on March 31/08 here. Tell me that’s not worth something….oh wait, it’s not? Shoot.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
that was a good day
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Assuming Smith lands here, there has to be another trade coming, right? There would be entirely too many relievers that other teams would have interest in.
i think that was Nixon
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
Perhaps the Indians don’t want to rush Adam Miller out of the gate; admittedly, though, even without Miller, I’d think we’d still be pushing our limit, though the removal of Mastny might be enough to account for the inclusion of Smith.
I still think they want to take it easy with Miller and not rely on him too early, even if he does well in ST. Perhaps they want him to go to Buffalo to get into a rhythm of working out of the bullpen for a little bit, then bring him up. By then, something might emerge (a trade or releasing someone).
Or we could package a reliever and Dellucci – maybe we could get something. (I partly jest. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
too early, too hazy to comment
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST reply actions
but i’m gonna miss Gutz
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
That mid-May doubleheader against the Jays catch in the 9th was intense!
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
as long as ben fran is not the starting LF in 2009 i’m OK
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:17 PM EST reply actions
Heilman would be heading to Cleveland
According to the Newark StarLedger.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
yeah, this makes no sense on our end unless we’re trading sowers or … Laffey God no
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I thought Heilman had mentioned that last year – could we be looking to acquire Heilman to be our 3rd starter? I’m not sure how that would turn out – it would depend on what we’d have to give up to get him.
The last time he started a game was back in 2005, and hasn’t had 10 or more ML starts in a season since 2004. Hmm… I hope he works out for us if that is the plan.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I first read that as “could we be looking to acquire Heliman to be our 3rd baseman”… I was thinking, “that’s….some outside the box thinking there…”
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
though it would be cooler if he had one of those gadget propeller thingies
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
I’m finding some more comments on Valbuena (made by fans, but hey, look how much knowledge we drop in these threads). Alot of people like him, both as a hitter and as a fielder. He supposedly made strides in the field and has a good approach at the plate. In fact, he’s almost major league ready.
Of course we’ll have to know more about this deal, but I’m starting to like this kid.
I think there’s several players missing here, going in every direction, but especially to the Mariners and the Mets. Those players might be prospects but, for us, they’ll change the meaning of the deal. My six cents.
a little presumptuous of you to think that this comment is worth three of indiansfan’s comments… and given its relative brevity, it’s quite a strong claim per word…
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
no, Google I “did not mean astroturf.”
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
This tells me he would be a good replacement for Jamey Carrol next year, not a second baseman of the future.
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
At the plate, he’s intelligent. Compared to the rest of these losers, anyway. He has a pretty compact line drive stroke, but more than that, he doesn’t swing at many bad pitches. While he only collected 49 at bats, his 22% swing rate on balls out of the zone was the best on the team, and his (small sample) approach was comparable to those of Mark Ellis and Jason Kubel. In other words, he’s not a guy who’s going to get himself out as often as a Yuniesky Betancourt or Jose Lopez. He knows he doesn’t have the most punishing bat in the world, so he’s compensated for that by developing a good eye and the ability to hit for a decent average. Those are valuable skills.
Well at least Shap would be going after a guy who fits the hitting philosophy of the club. Doesn’t exactly excite me though.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
Hello Mario,
Contact guys can be useful – having a team full of mashers or guys with high-strikeout totals need to be compensated with guys who are strong on fundamentals.
Granted, we don’t have exactly a team full of mashers or guys with high-strikeout totals (not extreme strikeout totals, anyways), but adding a guy like that, especially if he is more of a utility guy, is not a bad move. Those are the types of guys who can do some things off the bench, being that their swings aren’t as likely to fall into slumps (as compared to someone like Marte, who has that long swing).
Besides that, I think they’re getting Valbuena more for his defense, with the hope he can become that type of offensive player that is described. Besides, we still have need for a #2 hitter on this team – perhaps Valbuena is that future #2 (in the lineup, that is).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
“Well, we need some contact guys to go along with our mashers. Granted, we don’t have any mashers.”
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
Heyman is reporting that it’s a very large trade:
LAS VEGAS — The Mets, Indians and Mariners are discussing a 12-player trade in which Seattle reliever J.J. Putz would go to the Mets. In the deal being discussed, the Mets would surrender six players, including outfielder Endy Chavez, relief pitcher Aaron Heilman and first base prospect Mike Carp. The Indians would be giving up rightfielder Franklin Gutierrez.
Either we’re getting Chavez or the Mariners are going to have an absurd defensive outfield.
I’m categorically for any player involving 12 players where we only give up one. How can we not do that?
Get in there! Get some action!
It’s like, a bar fight starts, it’s total mayhem. A donnybrook. You’ve got to at least break a chair on a pool table and yell before you leave the bar.
by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
LOL
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
I can only assume that you actually would use the word “categorically” during a bar fight as well.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Tyler, we’ve got to get out of here categorically. But before that happens, help me with this chair…
I would, but I categorically stole a bottle of Tanq 10 during the mayhem and I’m hoping to make off with it.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
still depends on the quality.
i’m not giving up one dortmunder gold for 2 rolling rocks and a budweiser product to be named later.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
there’s no way its a 12 player deal and we’re only giving up one player
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:25 PM EST up reply actions
I chuckled out loud. A COL.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
A Circle of Losers? I believe that’s the definition of 45 people on LGT posting frantically about a 4th OF being dealt for a AAAA 2B.
Self included.
by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
no, sir… a Chuckle Out Loud.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
As opposed to a CIMHK, chuckling in my head kinda.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think Andrew and vegaswatch were kidding – we certainly are not getting 12 players and are likely giving up more than Gutz; otherwise, we likely will only get 1-2 minor players in return and be mostly an accessory to this trade, not so much an equal partner.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
LAS VEGAS — The Indians reportedly will also be including David Dellucci in the package to the Mariners.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:27 PM EST reply actions
THAT IS NOT EVEN FUNNY MARIO I ALMOST PEED MYSELF
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
but what about Marte? Can we attach him to Benfran and hope SEA sees it as = to Gutz?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I`m sure if we send the Seattle brass an offer typed in a blue box with official looking newspaper type, we can pull it off.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:31 PM EST up reply actions
His avatar isn’t even original mario. It’s freaking N64 mario. C’mon dude, that’s a red flag if I ever saw one.
by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i never thought of this before
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions
Alright alright let’s stop it right there.
But yeah, as far as being even close to any scoops involving baseball, I’m currently in a bed and breakfast in a town of 5,000 where I’m pretty sure baseball has never been played or seen. Dale Hunter the hockey player was born here for what it’s worth.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:40 PM EST up reply actions
with the lady friend?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:41 PM EST up reply actions
Solo. Doing a rural elective in family medicine for the month.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
ahh
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
You should hear the stories people tell about him and his dad. Couple of alcoholics apparently, seen drinking and driving around here pretty much the entire offseason.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:43 PM EST up reply actions
Ah sorry, let me try that again.
PETROLIA – You should hear the stories people tell about him and his dad. Couple of alcoholics apparently, seen drinking and driving around here pretty much the entire offseason.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
rec
I do like the 3-D look he brings though.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
Forget that reliever and Dellucci for something trade I mentioned earlier.
Or, maybe there will be a reliever (Kobayashi? Betancourt?) traded along with Dellucci and Gutierrez for ?. Could it be Putz? Or could it be both Heilman AND Smith?
Adding a young arm like Jon Niese or a young prospect like Fernando Martinez would be nice, though probably a far-fetched idea.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
i don’t like them
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
If I had to guess, we’re acquiring Valbuena to compete for a job and we’re not trading any relievers. Shap has always been a believer in this “acquire arms, figure out later” bullpen building strategy and, if I am looking at Smith right, we should be able to shuttle him if we want.
I’m for adding arms that are capable of putting up ERAs in the 3’s and then just figuring it out.
Anyone else see Smith’s career? He’s pitched in 35 minor league games ever. What?
And, it’s fair value for Gutz. People seem to forget that Gutz is sort of old. I can see the optimism for him but as for market value, you’ve got to see the tremendous downside.
me too, and not looking forward to it
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
i don’t like them
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
MORE:
Under terms of the deal, the Mets would get Putz, outfielder Jeremy Reed and reliever Sean Green from Seattle. The Mariners would receive reliever Aaron Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first baseman Mike Carp from the Mets. They’d also get Franklin Gutierrez from the Indians and minor leaguers. The Indians would get reliever Joe Smith from the Mets and infielder Luis Valbuena from Seattle.
And minor leaguers? Isn’t the GM of the Mariners the once vaunted director of the Brewers farm system?
To me, this is not enough for Putz. Also, that’s only 9 players, so potentially 3 unnamed minor leaguers?
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:33 PM EST up reply actions
This is like one of those motivational posters you see at the dentist’s office. All it needs is some inspirational phrase in big white letters across the bottom.
thats what i thought it was
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
This is like a game thread with no game!
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 10:34 PM EST reply actions
Naw dude. Shapsmash. Right after an AntDouble.
Our best players wear suits, not jerseys.
by afh4 on Dec 10, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
It’s been too long since we’ve gotten a new header, and that last line needs to be it.
by Voltaire on Dec 10, 2008 10:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
what is this 2006?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions
rec
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Hmm. Where do we put him? SS in Columbus? Or does Barf open with the ML club so we don’t use his last option?
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:39 PM EST reply actions
hah
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
My gut reaction is that I hate this idea. Not shooting the messenger but meh thanks.
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
Hm, maybe I’m reading the wrong things but does he have the track record for that?
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
So, sorry for being thick on this, you’re suggesting he’s our starting 2b this year?
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
A spring training competition to determine the last infield spot….I’m fairly sure it’s written in the Indians Constitution that the oldest man wins.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
The Indians wrote a Constitution? No outsiders respected it, apparently.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 10, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t tell anyone but James Madison got the idea for ours during a secret affair with a Cherokee woman
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:48 PM EST up reply actions
Ramon Vazquez is a free agent. I’m just sayin’….
by Fundamentals on Dec 10, 2008 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
The Indians receive Smith and Valbuna.
The Mariners receive Gutierrez from the Tribe and Heilman, outfielder Endy Chavez and first baseman Mike Carp from the Mets.
The Mets receive Putz, Reed and reliever Sean Green.
So it’s a nine-player swap, with the Indians giving up Gut to get a situational right-handed reliever and an infield prospect that the Mariners were considering for their starting second base job next season.
I’d be fine with that. I was somewhat concerned when we were giving up minor leaguers in addition to this.
meh. I was hoping for a colossal fall-apart. I’ll enjoy looking at Mariners box scores and seeing F. Gutierrez .280
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Me too. I am relieved that no others were mentioned.
by Fundamentals on Dec 10, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
as long as ben fran is not the starting LF on Opening Day I am OK
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:47 PM EST reply actions
HEY GUYS! JENSEN’S OKAY WITH THE WOOD SIGNING!
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:47 PM EST reply actions
link
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
This is a Facebook photoshop asking to be made.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions
Can we still shoehorn Dellucci in this thing while no one is looking?
Damn you Supermario!
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 10:48 PM EST reply actions
I would be willing to use my quote blocking skills for the greater good.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
In other news, it looks like Cleveland is done sniffing around Furcal (if they were ever that interested) and Arizona is trying to hammer something out with Felipe Lopez. So there’s two more infielders off the market pretty soon.
Anybody curious about Orlando Cabrera? He seems pretty solid and it doesn’t seem like he’s getting a lot of calls right now.
i think we just got our infielder
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
and i think this means … PAR TAY
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Wait, this means we’re getting rid of Marte? What the f? It does, doesn’t it?
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
oh hell i didn’t think that through
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
And hope JH can play third.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
i’m against this idea
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:53 PM EST up reply actions
I presume then you don’t want Valbuena playing 2B for us next season? Otherwise, how else do you get Cabrera and Peralta playing on the INF – either they play SS and 3B, respectively, or 2B and SS, respectively.
Right now, the 3B market seems very thin – Joe Crede seems like the only FA, and he’s coming off a bad back. There’s other possibilities, each with their own issues (Blalock, for instance, might be moving to 1B). Something did mention Vazquez above. :-)
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
For what it’s worth, Valbuena’s 2008 progress score is roughly equivalent to Carlos Rivero’s. Which makes it higher than any of our hitting prospects outside of Santana.
I don’t know him from a hole in the wall until you assign him a 1 – 15 slot, Adam.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
with his 2008 it would seem hard to not put him in the top 10. obviously BA doesn’t think much of his ceiling, and prior to this season he wouldn’t have scored so well…
according to minorleaguesplits he actually got unlucky this year. His neutral OPS is .832
I won’t post the actual pic here, but I think this link pretty much sums up minorleaguesplits to me.
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
“No, your problem was, you bought the actual shorts. The trick is to buy JEANS and CUT THEM OFF.”
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know him from Adam until you assign him a 1-15 slot, hole-in-the-wall.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 10, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
i just want ben fran and to a lesser extent garko gone. i just don’t like them, and this is a bad move for their demise.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:55 PM EST reply actions
Rooting for a half season of goodness out of Ryan and Ben is rooting for delaying LaPorta’s arbitration and free agency by a year.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
laporta is getting old. i want him to hit his way up by mid-may.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
At the expense of optioning down or selling low on Garko and BenFran, or having one less season of control over LaPorta? Kind of illogical, hey?
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
I thought we all agreed GFP was our Id.
by NickFantana on Dec 10, 2008 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
No id of mine mopes about ex-girlfriends on a baseball site.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
to be fair, i wasn’t moping about an ex-GF
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions
or my new ex-GF either for that matter
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
Hello GFP,
Would you please get over your BenFran & Garko dislike/hate, whatever you want to call it – they are not the biggest problems we have on this team right now. If something comes along where we can get something for them, fine.
But being that Gutierrez is now gone and Hafner is a big question mark, not to mention Aubrey, plus the fact LaPorta is NOT ready, who do you think should play LF and 1B?
Would you rather have Dellucci play LF? I wouldn’t. What about Crowe? Crowe is less accomplished than BenFran.
As for 1B, it has to be Garko, unless you want to shift Victor to 1B and play Shoppach full-time at C, and it seems most are thinking we’re going to trade Shoppach at some point (perhaps we could get the Marlins to bite on him and maybe 1-2 other prospects for Ricky Nolasco or Josh Johnson, Nolasco being my preference).
Plus, both BenFran and Garko are CHEAP.
So, get over this BenFran & Garko dislike/hate – there are bigger issues to deal with, and the two have had their bright spots, believe it or not, arguably as bright as Gutierrez, though neither was as highly-touted as Gutierrez. For now, BenFran & Garko can be pieces to the puzzle; if something better comes along, that’s fine, but as of right now, I don’t see better options for the positions they have and relative to cost.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
its not rational. it is what it is.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
GFP,
Chances are, you’ll have to deal with it for a little while longer at least, especially now that Gutz is out of the fold – Francisco is now our 3rd-best OF player, over Dellucci and Crowe. Therefore, he’s likely on this team, probably in a starting or semi-starting role, unless we add someone substantial to the OF (Dunn might count IF we sign him).
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Isn’t there also a sense in which this likely increases Carroll’s playing time? If Wedge’s track record is any indicator, he likes to spell young players with a steady veteran hand.
Unrelated thought:
We shouldn’t forget about Joe Smith. He’s a good pitcher.
That’s MLE splits.
Apparently the PCL is big time hitters? Looks like he’s a little better against righties.
by this point, how does ESPN not mention it in their winter meetings blog? i’d imagine they have someone on staff that literally just follows around Rosenthal, much like Mort has an RSS feed to Jay Glazer on his blackberry.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
I really like Gutz. I hope whoever we acquire for him does a good job of making me forget that.
by APV on Dec 10, 2008 11:08 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
rec
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:09 PM EST up reply actions
who backs up any OF?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions
oh this sucks
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it’s
either
Grady in CF, Choo in RF, BenFran in LF, with Crowe backing up.
OR
Grady in CF, Choo in RF, Dellucci in LF, with BenFran backing up.
Which would you prefer? I think I’d prefer the first, though maybe the Indians think Dellucci can give them one solid season, enough to get a little bit of trade value in him before trading him. If that’s the case, then it might be the second configuration.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Your omission of “no offense” makes me believe that you intended some offense with this post.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 10, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
“though maybe the Indians think Dellucci can give them one solid season”
I think Dellucci answered that question over the past two seasons. Letting Dellucci start in any capacity this year is a joke, we can do better than that.
I too hope that that is not the case – I’d rather see BenFran start the year in LF between him and Dellucci, even if that means Crowe would back them all up (not sure he’s ready, but he’s probably as ready as he’s going to be, and can probably be solid enough defensively to help out in that regard at least).
The only reason why it could be the latter (Dellucci starting and BenFran backing up) is because Dellucci is more experienced and the fact that the only real chance they may have of trading him is by playing him and hoping he catches fire enough for him to catch some team’s eye. I admit that that possibility seems far-fetched, which is why I’d prefer BenFran starting in LF over Dellucci.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
But where does Dunn fit in all this?
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.
Dunn doesn’t fit in unless he signs here, and right now, that’s not a given.
IF Dunn would sign, then I presume BenFran backs him up (I’d rather have him backing up than Dellucci, and BenFran is ahead of Crowe in the pecking order, plus is more proven at the ML level, plus Crowe has at least one more option, I believe, whereas BenFran doesn’t).
But as others have mentioned, Dunn is not a guarantee to come here, so let’s not presume he is the reason why Gutz was traded – I think Shapiro made this trade because Gutz was losing value and is not likely to live up to his potential and the fact that we were able to address our bullpen and infield weaknesses with this one move. I think it’s a pretty solid move on Shapiro’s part.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Choo backs up Choos!
The man faces compulsory military servive. You thin he’s gonna half -ass it out there?
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 11:18 PM EST up reply actions
(This post brought to you by 3 Christmas Ales)
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
I’d like to note that this thread has prompted my consumption of 2 of my 4 remaining Christmas Ales (I am on the east coast and brought some back from Cleveland after Thanksgiving). I have switched to Natty Boh for the moment.
Also regarding Choo’s military service, does anybody have a real idea what is up with that? I lived in Korea for a year but I don’t know anything about military service exemption.
by cleveland teamer on Dec 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
The exemptions exist for athletes and Choo is very close but not yet there (WBC title or all-star selection would do it.) Even if he tears it up without those things he still may get an exemption. Technically he needs to serve by age 26 or lose his citizenship.
I lived in Japan for 3 1/2 years and made my way over to Korea a few times. The language was tough, but I prefer the food to this day.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
It hurts losing Gutz. I wanted to cheer for him this upcoming season and finally see him break through. In the end, it was probably for the best. We have a bit of a logjam in the OF and Gutz offers a decent return. He was a lot of fun to watch in the OF … and the Mariners are going to have a hell of a nice tandem in that OF (Gutz/Ichiro) defensively.
I hope Franky G does well .. just not too well.
I don’t know about you guys, but this is way more action than I expected from the winter meetings (from us, that is).
Let’s hope whoever the Mariners GM doesn’t get to think for the rest of his life about the time he robbed Mark SHapiro.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
There’s the risk that we gave away a very good player. We gave away quite a lot of potential.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
(we got something back).. I am still trying to figure out what we’ve gotten back. I’m not so easily sold on this one. I need a moment, and a moist toilette.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
I believe you meant a moist towelette.
by woodsmeister on Dec 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Hey guys, just confirming (sorry if it’s been mentioned)… looks like Valbuena was on the Mariners’ 40-man, so our 40-man roster is now back to 39? With Mastny out of the picture?
Does that mean Valbuena has no options left, or does he?
If he doesn’t, that virtually guarantees he’ll be on the ML roster next season and will factor in in some way – either as the starting 2B or in a semi-starting role.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Valbuena is definitely on the 40-man. How many options he has left depends on when he was added to the 40-man…but my guess is he has all his options left and that he just got added last September.
I expect an option to be blown in April (providing he doesn’t look bad in March.)
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 11:23 PM EST up reply actions
On a macro level, I’m glad to see the Indians turn one of their excess outfielders into something. Had we let Gutz, Francisco, Choo, Crowe all wither on the vine (so to speak – and I realize Choo doesn’t look withered), I’d have been pissed.
I agree – while I’ll miss Gutz also, his chances of being an impact player have been dwindling over the last few seasons, and as mentioned above, he was not going to play CF here. Plus, with our OF surplus and our questionable bullpen from 2008, the trade makes sense, plus we either have added INF depth to our farm system and/or may have also filled the INF hole in the same trade.
I’m a bit amazed we only traded Gutz to get two players, to strengthen our INF and our bullpen. In reality, we were a very small part of that trade with the Mets and Mariners, almost like an accessory rather than an equal partner (not that I’m complaining – I think we did well, but I’m just surprised we didn’t have to give up more. Gutz’s value has been declining for a while now, so I think Shapiro has done well on the surface).
Just my 2 cents.
Also, thanks for the info. on Valbuena’s status – maybe Valbuena is more the long-term option at 2B or the utility INF rather than the solution for 2009 (though would that make Barfield or Marte more of a fixture in the 2009 plans, then?)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Doesn’t body well for Marte unless somebody starts the year on the DL.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
sigh
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Shapiro: There is no Dunn deal until it’s a Dunn deal.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 11, 2008 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
This move seems to open up some options for us in terms of how the rest of the offseason unfolds. Valbuena would seem to answer the immediate need for an infielder, while Gutz possibly opens up at least part of a corner OF spot.
Gutz was a 4th OF behind Grady, Choo, and Francisco. Dellucci’s still on the team. Brantley and LaPorta’s are the hole. I do wonder who Cleveland now considers its fourth outfielder. Or maybe a deal is made that puts Francisco into a part time role.
We’re running low on right fielders again.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
oooh brantley, i forgot about him
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:34 PM EST up reply actions
Hello GFP,
Just think, BenFran can keep the OF warm for Brantley, who may be ready inside of a year, much like LaPorta. So, BenFran may not be starting for long – how did you forget about Brantley? :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
alcohol, past drug use, old age
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 11, 2008 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
I’m hoping they put Dellucci in a GUTIERREZ jersey and send him to Seattle. Maybe they don’t notice.
DISCLAIMER: I may be bitter.
Or disguise him as part of Gutz entourage.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
“You look waaaay more like Alex Rios on TV”
by supermarioelia on Dec 10, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions
They’ll figure it out once the Godfather music starts. But by then it will be too late!
by Logodaedalus on Dec 11, 2008 12:03 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm. Garko and Francisco have options left, but we’ll probably need them, at least for a while. It’s possible we’ll just run out of room for Looch.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 11:31 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe the Pirates will take him mid-season a la Michaels.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 10, 2008 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
Keep Garko and BenFran; Dellucci would be my first choice to let go – BenFran can at least play all 3 OF spots in a pinch, Dellucci certainly cannot.
Besides that, BenFran looks to have more “grit” than Dellucci, much like Michaels had grit. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I just got back from dinner. This is mayhem. Can everyone stop commenting for 5 minutes so I can catch up?
by Roger Dorn on Dec 10, 2008 11:35 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Per the the article on the Indians site:
" commenter wrote:
That is a terrible trade for the Indians. Give up Gutierrez for a middle reliever and a C level prospect who has terrible minor league numbers. On top of that we may be giving up more. Shapiro, what are you thinking? Did you actually read the details of this trade? I sure hope this report isn’t accurate. I’d rather keep Gutierrez as a fourth outfielder than trade him for what is being offered here.
12/10/2008 10:59:52 PM"
Sassy.
Damn. I can’t disagree with this.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Hello Westbrook,
With all due respect to the commenter there, he/she didn’t factor in Valbuena’s potential, which you can’t really determine from stats.
While Gutierrez is clearly a better defender than Francisco (which is what made him more valuable), in reality, you’re not losing much offensively with Francisco. And, let’s face it, Gutz was NOT going to play CF while Grady is here. Plus, what are the chances Gutz was going to develop into that star-RF we were expecting when we acquired him for Bradley several years ago.
Many have complained that Shapiro holds onto prospects for too long, without getting anything in return. Here, he did get some players in return that could fill two problem areas on our ballclub. Keep in mind that Gutz wasn’t THAT valuable – I’m still amazed we got two players without giving up anyone else. And, Smith has had two solid seasons out of the bullpen, and with the way our bullpen was in 2008, I think there is a solid chance he can make a positive impact. As for Valbuena, he looks promising both now and for the long-term, either as a starting 2B or as a future utility INF.
Overall, I think it’s a solid trade by Shapiro – Gutz’s value, barring a late surgence, is probably going to decline in the coming years. I’ll miss Gutz too, but I think the trade addressed some needs, while still keeping our biggest trade-chip (Shoppach) – perhaps Shoppach can address the starting rotation (the Marlins’ Nolasco or Johnson, perhaps?) or will be still here in 2009.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Zips projection for Valbuena is an OPS+ of 81. It also has his range as Very Good. For perspective, that’s a better projection than Carroll, Barfield and Marte.
More from Zips projections: Francisco OPS+ 96, Very good range in both LF and RF. Gutierrez OPS+ 89, excellent range in RF and very good range in LF.
your eyeball sense of our their range is probably as good, if not better, than ZIPS projection of range
I think Gutz’s range is excellent, but I certainly think Francisco’s range is above-average, which is why I said his range is clearly better than Dunn’s, who doesn’t look like he can move at all out there. Dunn, to me, looks average at best out there; Francisco is better than that.
Francisco did play CF well enough in the Minor Leagues for several seasons, so I don’t think above-average is out of the question.
My guess with Zips projections is that Gutz wasn’t that familiar with LF because he didn’t play it that often. That might be why they think Gutz and BenFran are virtually equivalent in LF (I probably would still give Gutz the edge there, despite his inexperience). Francisco also played a fair amount of RF at Buffalo, I believe, which is probably why they rate Francisco as having equivalent range in both LF and RF.
I’m not saying they’re projections of range are right, just that BenFran is a better OFer than some people are giving him credit for, and certainly better than Dellucci or Dunn.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
i think we climaxed
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:44 PM EST reply actions
> 23 Gutierrez, Franklin
> 20 Sizemore, Grady
> 16 Gomez, Carlos
> 16 Chavez, Endy
> 14 Beltran, Carlos
> 14 Cameron, Mike
> 13 Logan, Nook
> 13 DeJesus, David
> 13 Rowand, Aaron
> 12 Granderson, Curtis
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 10, 2008 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Dave Cameron just posted an essay he couldn’t get up on USSM saying that they’ve automatically improved their contact pitching. Best of a bad situation, given those contracts.
by fleerdon on Dec 10, 2008 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
Valbuena was rushed through the M’s system just like Droobs. He should have repeated High-A in 2007 as a 21 year old, but was rushed to AA. He hit extremely well in 200 repeating ABs to begin 2008, and kept his plate discipline upon a promotion to AAA.
The kid’s legit. With a plus glove.
the lookout landing people seem to think Valbuena needs at least a half season at AAA. If that’s the case, we still need an infielder to start the season. Does this give Marte a 3 month reprieve? But I doubt Shapiro would want to switch Peralta from SS to 3B mid-season…
Doesn’t matter if Marte got a 3 month reprieve. We’d see 3 months of Carroll. Wedge won’t play Marte if he can avoid it in any way.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and also has hopes for Gutz. Free Marte.
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