The Big Deal's Little Deal
Ryan on the Big Deal: Here's the entire trade (former teams in parentheses):
The Seattle Mariners receive: RHP Aaron Heilman (NYM), OF Franklin Gutierrez (CLE), OF Endy Chavez (NYM), 1B Mike Carp (NYM), RHP Maikel Cleto (NYM), LHP Jason Vargas (NYM), and OF Ezekiel Carrera (NYM)
The New York Mets receive: RHP J.J. Putz (SEA), OF Jeremy Reed (SEA), RHP Sean Green (SEA)
The Cleveland Indians receive: RHP Joe Smith (NYM), 2B Luis Valbuena (SEA)
From an overall view, this deal was all about the Mets getting J.J. Putz and the Mariners getting as much talent as they could. The Indians were just facilitating the larger deal, though that's not how we as Tribe fans look at it. New York has made rebuilding their bullpen an offseason priority after losing the division because they couldn't hold leads down the stretch. To that end, they've recently signed Francisco Rodriguez, the best closer on the market, and now they've traded for Putz, a closer in his own right, to set up for Rodriguez. I would imagine Putz wasn't happy at the prospect, since the demotion in roles means his future earnings potential decreases significantly.
Seattle ended 2008 needing talent in a lot of areas, and while there's no top-flight talent heading their way in this deal, the infusion of both major-league and minor-league players (seven in all) will certainly help their outfield defense in the short-term, and will strengthen their minor-league system in the long-term. Replacing Raul Ibanez and Jeremy Reed with Endy Chavez and Franklin Gutierrez will be a massive defensive improvement. And with ball-in-play pitchers like Carlos Silva and Jarrod Washburn in their rotation, they're going to need all the defense they can get.
Jay on the Little Deal: CF Franklin Gutierrez for Mariners 2B Luis Valbuena, an advanced prospect, and Mets reliever Joe Smith, a righty who just completed a successful first full season in the majors. As an aside, the name Maikel Cleto frightens me.
Gutierrez of course played right field for the Indians but was always a center fielder. They say that weakness invites aggression, but Indians fans know that depth at a skill position invites a trade — that principle is the reason Asdrubal is on our roster and Coco isn't. But if Coco's skills suggested a trade would be productive, Gutierrez's skills flat-out demanded it. He was one of the best defensive outfielders in the game last season, possessed of both staggering range and a plus-plus arm, and he may well blossom into being the game's very best center fielder. With us, he's a weak-hitting corner outfielder, soaking up a few more balls than anyone has a right to expect. With the Mariners, he becomes chief defender of one of the most spacious outfields in the game.
Gutierrez will be eligible for arbitration starting in 2010 and will reach free agency after the 2012 season. Like many high-tools-low-skills players signed as teenagers out of Latin America, he's been out of options for years, which creates a real flexibility problem when he goes into long slumps at the plate. People ... I understand that you loved Gootz. We all love Gootz. Defensive standouts are part of the aesthetic beauty of the game — they help the home team a little but help the viewing experience even more — hell, I still get misty about Alex Escobar. But let's be real about this player — he got 741 PA over the last two seasons and his line drive rate over that period was just 15.8%. For context, out of 138 qualified major league hitters this past season, only four had a lower rate than that. Yes, we risk that he might explode as a hitter and jack 25 home runs at some point, but the Mariners risk four years of struggles to hit .260. At the plate, he's more high-risk than high-reward, and all of the above is a package of trade-offs that looks a lot better in CF than in RF.
Joe Smith is only the second Joe Smith in MLB history, which I think is kind of remarkable. (The other one was a catcher who had a 14-game cup of coffee with the Yankees in 1913.) He made the big-league club (and was added to the Mets 40-man roster) out of spring training in 2007, and he didn't give up a run until his 18th appearance in the majors. He stayed in the bigs for most of 2007 and all of 2008, putting him one year of service time away from arbitration as a Super Two (assuming he stays in the majors) but under team control all the way through 2013.
Smith also has two option years remaining, which is more than we can say for Ed Mujica, just for one example. Smith becomes the 8th reliever on the 40-man roster with at least one option remaining going in 2009, in addition to four relievers (K-Wood, Masa, Betancourt and Mujica) who can't be sent to the minors. Option rights can be quite significant for players in complementary roles, which includes all but the very best relievers, and the Indians clearly value those rights.
Ryan: Last season, Smith pitched in 82 games for the Mets, usually from the seventh inning on. Based on his Fangraphs profile, he throws a high-80s fastball, a slider, and an occasional changeup. He's a ground-ball pitcher, always a plus for a reliever, though he he's walked 4.35 BB/IP in his professional career, higher than you'd hope for a late-inning guy. The bullpen situation is way too jumbled up right now to guess where he's going to end up in the Wedge pecking order, but I'd put him in the Lewis/Betancourt/Perez group as of today.
Jay: Valbuena literally means "good value," from the Latin root vale, which variously means strength or worth. Then again, sometimes vale means "farewell," as in "ave atque vale," so you could argue Valbuena means "good riddance." Then again, it could also be from the Latin root valle, which is more like an assistant, which suggests that Valbuena could be a good complementary player, or perhaps just good at making assists. (Hat-tip to randallhank.)
Valbuena got his first look at the majors just three months ago, as a September call-up. He seems to have emerged as a quality defender at second base and a canny hitter, albeit one who may not ever have any pop. He definitely fits the Indians pattern of targeting advanced prospects who are excess depth on other clubs, and especially their pattern of targeting infielders with unusually selective approaches at the plate. Evidently they feel that middle infielders with minimal pop but the ability to draw walks end up being under-valued by other clubs, a trend that stretches from Carroll to Asdrubal to Rivero and now to Valbuena.
In 2007, Valbuena played in Double-A at the rather young age of 21, and while his overall numbers were quite underwhelming — 693 OPS — he seemed to hit into a fair amount of bad luck — Sackmann puts his 2007 neutral OPS at 766 — and he maintained a healthy walk rate of 9.5% despite frightening no one. In 2008, his walk rate was even better — 11.2% in Double-A and 11.5% in Triple-A, numbers that qualify as highly unusual for a 22-year-old middle infielder at that level. His overall numbers rose even more significantly in 2008, as he posted and 864 OPS in Double-A, 748 OPS in Triple-A, 831 neutral OPS across both levels — and here I will remind you again, all of this at age 22. UPDATE: The icing on the cake is that he's got a 901 OPS in 38 games in the Venezuelan Winter League. He's spending three months as the starting 2B for the Cardenales de Lara, whose starting shortstop is ... Asdrubal Cabrera.
Our Progress score system has Valbuena around 8.0 for 2008, right with our best-performing position player prospects from last year (Santana and Rivero) and with more experience in Triple-A and the majors than any of our best prospects. He's very obviously one of the best ten prospects in our suddenly burgeoning farm system, and as he sits on the cusp of the majors, you could argue he's in the top five. Marcels has him pencilled in for a 766 OPS in 2009, in the majors at age 23. He doesn't have Asdrubal's star potential, but his power will almost certainly improve as he goes through his mid-20s, and he's got a solid chance to be a core player.
Ryan: I think adding Valbuena precludes any major infielder signings or trades, in fact I think the Indians pursued this trade only after they looked at all possible free agent signings or trades for established major leaguers. I would think this gives new life to Josh Barfield or Andy Marte, depending on whether the brain trust decides to move Peralta to third permanently. The problem with waiting until Spring Training to figure out who to keep is that three-fourths of the infield wouldn't know what position they were playing until the Marte/Barfield competition had a winner. It's probably for the best if the Indians send Marte on his way this winter, let Peralta play third every day in Spring Training, and have Carroll and Barfield handle second.
If this is it for the infield, then I think it's now on to adding another starting pitcher or even looking at one of the free agent corner outfielders. I don't think the deal does a whole lot for the 2009 Indians, though it may very well turn out a very good trade for the club two or three years from now if Valbuena pans out.
Jay: Somewhat overlooked in the discussion so far is the fact that Valbuena bats from the left side, and lefty-batting infielders (other than 1B) have extra value because the great majority are righty batters. It's easier to throw a lefty rookie into the fire because it's easy to find a viable righty to spell him off the bench. The Indians may well be considering breaking camp with a platoon of Valbuena and Barfield at 2B, backed up by Carroll, with the long-discussed position shift for Peralta and Cabrera going into effect. That at the very least has now become the Indians' worst case scenario, but with crappy options for the infield abounding league-wide, maybe it's just ... the scenario.
Valbuena was just added to the 40-man roster this past September, and he'll enter 2009 with just 28 days of service time. If he breaks camp with the Indians and stays in the majors, he'll play the next three seasons at or near minimum salary, hit arbitration starting with the 2012 season, and reach free agency after the 2014 season. If he splits his time between the majors and minors this season, you can move both of those back one year. He has three option years remaining.
Breaking this down according to contractual value, the Indians traded four seasons of Gutierrez for 11 seasons of control over Valbuena and Smith — like it or not, this is the classic M.O. for the Shapiro front office, but at least in this case, those 11 seasons will start to be cashed in immediately, not several years down the road. That's the long view, though. The short view is that we traded from a position of depth — we have, like, ninety weak-hitting outfielders — to bolster one part of the roster where we badly needed depth — middle infield — and another part where you can never have enough — the bullpen. Frankie Gootz, we will miss him, and he was the most specialest and our most favoritest weak-hitting corner outfielder, but he probably would never have been much more than a complementary player on our club.
Some may question whether we got enough value back for a player of Gutierrez's talent and potential, but there can be little doubt that these two new players are far better fits for our particular needs. And regardless of that, how cool is it that we screwed the Tigers out of the best two available closers in the space of about 30 hours?
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267 comments
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Comments
I hope people appreciate Smith. It took him all of 32 innings to go from college closer to effective MLB reliever. The dude can pitch, and Paul Konerko, Miguel Cabrera, and Jose Guillen will learn it pretty quickly.
Of course, Jim Thome will eat him alive.
by xrickx on Dec 11, 2008 3:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
My former father in law is named Joe Smith. He is a logger, his nickname is ‘Chain-saw Joe’. I’m not kidding!
by larzko on Dec 11, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats a pretty amazing nickname. Although I picture him having two chainsaws as hands, kind of one upping Ash “from housewares” of Army of Darkness fame.
by hans on Dec 11, 2008 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Chainsaw Joe could really present a problem for Wood….
by Logodaedalus on Dec 11, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems like most people here are happy we signed Wood just for the jokes.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m happy for baseball reasons also, but the jokes certainly don’t hurt. Well, some of them might.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 11, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As long as they don’t make you laugh for four hours.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 11, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mariners fan here. The only thing I don’t love about this deal is the loss of Valbuena. He’s probably never going to be a star, but he’s a nice player.
Aside from that, I like this deal for all involved. I just wish y’all would stop taking all of our interesting middle infield prospects. You can have Betancourt if you want though.
by acblue on Dec 11, 2008 4:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wouldn’t the Mastny sale have opened up another 40-man spot?
I think there’s actually room for everyone so far, right?
by still ill on Dec 11, 2008 4:45 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
KLaw on the deal for the Indians:
Cleveland does a little asset management here, flipping Gutierrez for Joe Smith, a low-slot right-handed specialist who’s a step below Green and who can pitch for Cleveland in 2009; and Luis Valbuena, a slightly bad-bodied second baseman with a good idea at the plate and some doubles power. Valbuena could end up an average big league second baseman, but conditioning is going to remain an issue for him over the long run.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 6:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I too am slightly bad-bodied because many things at the plate seem like a good idea.
by FredOx on Dec 11, 2008 8:36 AM EST up reply actions 9 recs
Is he Ronnie Belliard-level “bad-bodied”?
by JulioBernazard on Dec 11, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know, now that he’s a BBWAA member, he doesn’t seem as credible.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 10:29 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Good point. Pretty soon he’ll be writing that Putz won’t be effective pitching in the 8th inning because closers can only get guys out in the 9th.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 10:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Putz will become ineffective because he doesn’t WANT to be pitching in the 8th. You thought he had bad control problems LAST year…unless of course he pitches out of his mind for his next big contract, which will NOT be with the Mets.
by stickpiano on Dec 12, 2008 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like Valbuena needs to report to the Cliff Lee “Abs of Steel Camp” immediately.
by ShawnK on Dec 11, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Marte, Peralta, Vabuena. The whole infield will be on the pink bike in Goodyear.
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Jay, I don’t believe you get misty eyed over Alex Escobar
by APV on Dec 11, 2008 8:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Oh, but I do. And if it’s less than it used to be, it’s only because we had Gootz replacing him.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys
I’m a mets fan but just yesterday (how ironic) I did a piece on Joe Smith. It’s of no use anymore to us but I figured some of you might like it.
http://www.metsgeek.com/articles/2008/12/10/joe-smith-season-analysis-2008/
by TheAnswer1313 on Dec 11, 2008 8:48 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Than ks.
Those splits are somewhat worrisome:
“Joe limited righties to an OPS against of .589, however lefties OPS against was .903, a difference of .314.”
Will he be a righty specialist?
by millionairesrow on Dec 11, 2008 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
most likely yeah. His arm delivery makes him extremely tough against righties. He’ll have to develop a changeup to be effective against lefties. But he was one of our bright spots in the pen last season. You got a good player.
by TheAnswer1313 on Dec 11, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, thats a great indepth article about him. Particularly useful since he doesn’t have that much actual pitching data built up over his short career thus far.
by hans on Dec 11, 2008 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys stayed up til 3 a.m. writing this? You’re the best.
I’m soliciting thoughts on defensive outfield depth. I guess Francisco is a decent enough reserve in the corners. Is Crowe?
by fleerdon on Dec 11, 2008 9:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
If it isn’t Crowe, wouldn’t it be Greene?
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Khalil Greene on the roster?
Oh man. We F’d up.
by afh4 on Dec 11, 2008 9:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t Francisco now the starter in left?
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 9:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is thing i don’t like about this deal for 09. the rest of it, i like a lot.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the difference between Frank and Ben is very large, especially for next year. Also, the market is flush with corner outfielders, so there is a chance we can still pick up one. Dunn, Burrell, Abreu, Ibanez, etc. They are all still on the market and I think LaPorta is basically ready so even if we don’t get another outfielder, I think the depth is fine.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, i know you’re right. it’s a fanboy thing mostly (for gutz, against ben). let’s get some Burrell.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess that if Delluci is healthy they will bat him against righthanders in platoon with Francisco. They’ll try that for a while, and if it doesn’t work, LaPorta.
by Kenyafan on Dec 11, 2008 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if we’re in on Abreu or someone like that?
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Dec 11, 2008 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Drool
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The thought of what your keyboard looks like scares me.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Dec 11, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not so much the drool as it is the splotches of Diet Dr. Pepper gumming up the keys.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Diet Dr. Pepper really does taste more like regular Dr. Pepper. If only I could decide if that was a good thing.
by APV on Dec 11, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
WHAAAA?!
Nothing is better than Dr. Pepper
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 9:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a godawful defender now.
by JulioBernazard on Dec 11, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t even think about not allowing the Tigers to get Putz. A small fringe benefit.
by oxforddave on Dec 11, 2008 9:13 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jay mentioned we prevented the Tigers from getting two closers – presumably, Wood and Putz – don’t forget that the supposed “top” closer in the market is no longer available either – K-Rod, who the Mets took away before we made this deal.
So, in essence, arguably the 3 top closers on the market are no longer possibilities for the Tigers – talk about “addition (for us) by subtraction (the Tigers’ closing options).”
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I mentioned “best two available” because (a) K-Rod was no longer available by the time we made these deals, and (b) the Tigers were specifically reported to have an active interest in both Wood and Putz.
Wood and Putz.
My God, what kind of hot stove is this?
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hello Jay,
I didn’t mean to imply you were inaccurate – you’re correct that the best 2 at the time were taken off by the Indians; I was just pointing out that the Tigers have lost arguably the best 3 options for a closer upgrade over the course of a week.
The hot stove is either “hot,” “dirty,” or a combination of both. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 11:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand why the Mariners would trade Valbuena.
He seems like the EXACT player they’d want to hold on to, especially given their impending suckitude next season and their issues with Beltre. If Beltre isn’t gone by June, then Bavasi’s ghost is still running that team.
I mean, I guess they could be swimming in MI prospects, but won’t Gutz be just about to walk by the time they actually become competitive again?
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 9:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, if he holds his own, they could flip him again. It’s not like the market for Best Defensive Outfielder in Baseball is going to dry up overnight.
by fleerdon on Dec 11, 2008 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gutz is going to be cheap his whole career, barring some ridiculous offensive breakout, which I think is largely fantasy. He seems like the sort of player whose team can extend if they want.
by afh4 on Dec 11, 2008 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear ya. But, if he wins three consecutive gold gloves, I bet those arb numbers get a little ugly for the Mariners. I mean, hey, I’m ok with the trade, but whenever I I try to look at it from the other side and can’t quite figure it out… well… Let’s just say that seems to only happen with Mariners trades and Braves trades.
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is the AL, guys get Gold Gloves based on what they do at the plate.
by Toxicadam on Dec 11, 2008 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PEDroia sucks.
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
by gte619n on Dec 11, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not going to win a Gold Glove as long as Grady’s in CF and healthy. Grady’s bat is too good.
by afh4 on Dec 11, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They routinely give it to more than one centerfielder. Gold Gloves aren’t position specific in the outfield. That said, Frank’s bat still probably isn’t good enough to win one.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t have to be, it just has to be good enough for him to play a full season.
Full season of Gutz = Gold Glove. I don’t know if that’ll happen, but his chances got a lot better.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you remember who votes for Gold Gloves? Since when do they give those to the best defensive players?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
God we’re cynical here. They sometimes get it right.
ESPN highlights, man. Gutz’ll be churning those out like it’s going out of style.
Rowand got a Gold Glove for running into a fence.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Rowand didn’t win it that year. He won it the next year when his offense was great.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crap I was just about to correct myself… seriously
Down ballot. It’ll pay.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
West Coast games too late for Sports Center. Remember Jim Edmunds with the Angels?
by odradek on Dec 11, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the problem; Gutz looks so smooth and effortless that there will be few ESPN highlights. That, and the lack of a big bat.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO GRIT = NO WEBGEM
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this. Gutierrez makes it look too easy, it’s only when you see the numbers that you realize that he’s hauling in 25 more outs than everyone else.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It;s unlikely that he’ll win for a couple of reasons: the incumbents and his offense. We’re not exaggerating about the correlation of offense and the gold glove.
Sizemore has won the past two years and Hunter and Suzuki the past eight. They will probably continue to win the awards as long as they are still on the field. If one of those guys does miss time or has a bad offensive season, I doubt Frank would be first in line, more likely it would be Granderson.
Look at the recent winners of the Gold Gloves, they are almost all good with the bat relative to their position. Noted glovemen Adam Everett and Mark Ellis have none to their name. Even the guys like Minky and Izturis, who aren’t that good with bat, received the award in what were career years offensively. Grudz winning in ‘06 is kind of an exception, but he’s not terrible with the bat.
It’s possible, but I would say unlikely.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok well, maybe he’ll have to settle for the baseball blogging and stats internet community honors. That recognition is tantamount to the actual Gold Glove, at least around here.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps so, but it won’t get him paid any more, unfortunately.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s possible the new front office people in Seattle (or at least GM) don’t value Valbuena as much as the previous crew. Or alternatively, they value the volume of potential talent they got over one individual of Valbuena’s skill level.
by APV on Dec 11, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They got, what, seven players back in this deal? Valbuena is a significant player, but I assume they wanted the guys they were getting, and we know that Gutierrez was their top CF target.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
/obligatory appreciation for what Jay and Ryan give us/
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 9:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
+1 – great job as usual, guys!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i know perez can get righties out, but i like the depth we have to be able to match up late in games with he and smith when needed. the depth provided by having Wood of course, but betancourt and lewis who can handle a whole late inning.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 9:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Smith seems like a perfect 7th inning guy, somebody to match up with our second lefty (if we carry one), and somebody that wouldn’t kill us if he move into the primary righty set-up guy shall Betancourt falter.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i picture using him in 7 or 8 whenever the tough righties are due up. lewis and betancourt can falter. man, i love our depth without miller, meloan, stevens and sipp.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 9:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Really random and stretched out thought, but perhaps Smith is more valuable to a team like us, with all our Lefty Starters… I hope we see a lot of Smith in the 6th or 7th mowing down the right handed bats of the other team…
by kwoog on Dec 11, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Shapiro front office likes sidearmers. I like them, too, but only because they’re fun to watch, I have no idea if they’re a good idea.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t He With Rrrrichhezz a sidearmer?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like it … now I want a Drumstick

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It seems likely that if we do carry a 2nd-lefty, Rundles would be the guy, so we could have a Smith-Rundles sidearming tandem in the 6th and 7th innings. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The best way to build middle relief is through depth. Last year we stood pat after the excellent 2007 season, and look what it got us. Smith looks like a can’t-miss addition.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Dec 11, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, we added Masa, and we were picking options on Borowski and Fultz, whom we later ditched for Breslow. The only reason we didn’t add more was because we seemed to have 4-5 guys in Triple-A who could fight for jobs, including Mastny, whose minor league numbers were pretty awesome. No doubt the bullpen was a terrible group last year, but a lot of that was directly in the hands of Betancourt, and you can’t blame the front office for that.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The front office did okay last year – I misspoke when I said it “stood pat”. I question the assumption that Betancourt and Perez would repeat 2007, and JoBo? We knew we were living on borrowed time with him, but there was nobody available on the market to replace him. I don’t blame the front office for dropping the ball. Masa was a good pick-up (even if he was mentioned as a possible closer). Whether it is the healthy competition, the unreliability of middle relievers (they [i]are[/i] middle relievers for a reason), or staff turnover, rebuilding middle relief is an annual task.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Dec 11, 2008 10:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anyone expected a repeat out of Betancourt, but had he only merely his 2007 ERA, he still would have been very effective. I do think he and Masa were considered the top two candidates to step in and close once Borowski faltered. I think they went into the season with at least a dozen viable relievers. Short of a acquiring a closer that just didn’t seem to be out there last year, I don’t know what else they really could have done. Did somebody else get a closer that we missed?
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brad Lidge was available, that’s the only one I can think of … and Valverde was moved.
by JP_Frost on Dec 11, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“He’s a side-armer,” said GM Mark Shapiro. “He’s an extreme ground-ball guy. He’s extremely tough on right-handers and should help us at the back end of the bullpen.”
nothing new, just passing horsemouth along…
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 10:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
that sounds like a skill set which, if used appropriately, can have a lot of situational value
by APV on Dec 11, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“He’s an average defender, but we like his bat,” said Shapiro.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 10:08 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Ughh – I got sucked into reading the comments. Why don’t we just copy-paste the full articles from the site and save us from the horror.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Dec 11, 2008 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and the last one:
“We also have three young guys coming in Matt LaPorta, Michael Brantley and Trevor Crowe,” said Shapiro. “It was an area of depth for us.”
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 10:09 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
eh, why not:
Shapiro feels Valbuena could be a starting second baseman in the future, but he said he’s still going to try and improve the infield this winter. Right now, the Indians still have a hole at third base unless they move shorstop Jhonny Peralta there.
“These meetings have been very productive for us,” said Shapiro, “but we still have a lot of time to improve the team.”
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 10:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Jay, since you dropped Latin roots on us, you should know that -ist is a suffix for an individual, and that -est is the suffix that means “to the highest degree possible.”
by JulioBernazard on Dec 11, 2008 10:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Seriously? That’s your whole comment? That one of my intentionally mangled words was incorrectly mangled at 3:30 a.m.?
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know how seriously we take our Latin here.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, it seemed strange in light of all the etymology we were given earlier in the diary.
And I don’t love trading position players for specialist RPs.
by JulioBernazard on Dec 11, 2008 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about trading a specialist position player for a RP?
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What if we get the specialest specialist RP?
by Logodaedalus on Dec 11, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
make it green, although we didn’t get that in return.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice write up guy, still think the trade does nothing for us. the best we can hope for is Smith is a get this righty out. Valbuena may start out at AA or at best AAA and late Sept call up. I would have no problem starting the season with Barfield. Spend the remaining 10mil on a starter or LF with some power.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Dec 11, 2008 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
still think the trade does nothing for us. the best we can hope for is Smith is a get this righty out.
Was keeping Gootz doing anything for us, as opposed to this? If Smith can get righties out in high leverage situations, I think this trade can be looked upon as favorable.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Dec 11, 2008 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Smith pitched in the NL lets see what do does in the AL. And Gootz did alot for us with him and Sizemore covering 75% of the outfield. With Choo we still do not know if he is going to hit LH pitching and I’m not a big Ben fan.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Dec 11, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How much of the NL vs AL pitching differences are due to the fact that pitchers bat in the NL? With that in mind, can we say that relievers in the NL and AL can be compared on a more level basis since they are facing good hitters (non-pitchers without a pitcher on-deck) in tough situations? (I’m not a stat-guy, so I look forward to any support one way or the other).
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Dec 11, 2008 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To add to this, I think the cw is that there is also a difference in league quality, though I think that it’s mostly in the pitching department so that has no effect on Joe Smith.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hello fanintexas,
Ben can cover LF fine; I’m not worried about his defense. And I’d rather have his offense in the lower-part of our order than Dellucci down there or in the #2 hole (I’d probably go with AsCab/Droobs there and hope he can continue where he left off last season). As has been mentioned, BenFran and Gutz’s offensive numbers weren’t that much different, and I’d even say BenFran’s was a bit more consistent than Gutz’s – he had a hot streak that was, I believe, comparable to Gutz’s 2007 season, so overall, I think Ben is fine.
As for Choo, sure, there may be a few growing pains, and expecting him to OPS .900 or whatever it was (1.000?) during the latter part of last season may be hard to duplicate, but he showed some progress against LHP and thrashed RHP pretty well. It was time for him to become an everyday-starter, and right now, he’s clearly our best option offensive (moreso than Gutierrez would have been, especially since Choo hits RHP and Gutierrez hits LHP).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“And I’d rather have his offense in the lower-part of our order than Dellucci down there or in the #2 hole”
I agree, cann’t wait until we cut Dellucci, disliked him in texas, hate him in cleveland. one of the top 10 worst signing by the currrect FO. Ben is a good 4th outfielder that would play out better in the NL but he is ok until someone better come up.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Dec 12, 2008 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Valbuena may start out at AA or at best AAA and late Sept call up.
Valbuena won’t start at AA, why would he?? That’s what he did last year and succeeded in AA and AAA. He also was a call up last year and handled his cup of coffee well. At least he is a AAA for the entire season with another September call up. At best, he is the starting 2B in Cleveland.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 13, 2008 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true. In 2008, Valbuena already had the season fanintexas predicts for 2009, and he did very, very well at it.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
wow, took me a while to catch up with all the comments.
I agree with most of you who feel this is a good trade. Having Gutz as a 4th outfielder or a platoon guys was a luxury, but that’s something you can’t afford if you have to fill holes elsewhere. Obviously we’ll be kicking ourselves if Grady goes down on opening day, but that’s a risk you have to take. Valbuena really fits a need and could actually see time as our everyday 2nd baseman next season. That’s more valuable than using Gutz as a defensive replacement late in games. That to me already makes this a good move, and that’s without mentioning Joe Smith who really strengthens our bullpen and may even put it over the top (if Wood signs).
I can only imagine what it feels like to not have someone of Shapiro’s caliber as your GM — it must be like that kid who always had shiny new toys imported from Japan, while you’re playing with crotchless GI Joe’s.
by JP_Frost on Dec 11, 2008 10:55 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great write-up. I’m a little more excited for LV than I was originally, but I agree with some who say it doesn’t do much for us in ’09. At worst (for 2009), the trade is neutral — at best, the runs Smith will save will be slightly more than the runs Gutz would have saved.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 11:04 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
If another deal goes down today I might lose it. Honestly. Way too many posts for the past two days.
Okay I guess I’ll settle if it’s something awesome.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 11:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
LGT has been hopping
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 11, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that many from newcomers, either, is my sense. We simply have far more regulars than we used to. This is our biggest offseason trade since the Crisp deal three years ago, before which this was a much smaller site, and of course K-Wood is our biggest free agent acquisition since the site started.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are we really sure the Wood acquisition will pan out any better than Borowski?
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 11, 2008 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We’re sure it’s a bigger acquisition. Not having a crystal ball, how can we be sure how it will pan out?
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was only kidding. And after reading afh’s fanpost, I’m feeling awfully optimistic about him, crystal ball or not. Trust me, I’m ecstatic upgrading from Borowski to Wood.
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 11, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hm, I think it was the Crisp deal that I found LGT.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 13, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any thoughts on how or whether his affects our likelihood of trading Kelly? I’ve been wondering lately if there’s a chance we won’t be offered anything for Kelly more valuable to us than, well, Kelly.
by fleerdon on Dec 11, 2008 11:21 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
i think shoppach is staying, honestly.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Shap isn’t done. This is more of a down-the-road deal, and as mcrose points out below, Kerry Wood was obtained for a run in 2009. We still could use a starter and this deal leaves us thin in the corner OF. The OF slot might be filled with a FA, but a decent pitcher is going to require a trade and that pretty much means Kelly.
OTOH, I always saw Kelly going as the centerpiece of a package, with Gutz the most likely partner. Those were our two guys who were both tradable and expendable. Kelly for a #3 starter will almost certainly involve sending away somebody (probably a prospect) that’s going to cause some distress on LGT.
by SuddenSam on Dec 11, 2008 1:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As long as the starter we get back is really a legit #3 and has at least a couple years left on his contract, I wouldn’t lose too much sleep if we had to trade Shoppach and, say, one of our high-end hitting prospects. I’d feel less good if it were Huff.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 11, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would be shocked to see Huff traded for a pitcher.
by SuddenSam on Dec 11, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
me too. If it’s straight up for Peavy, fine. But it wouldn’t be.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Reading this article at theclevelandfan.com, one trade I wouldn’t mind seeing us make would be packaging Shoppach along with a prospect or two, if necessary, to the Marlins for Ricky Nolasco or Josh Johnson. Personally, I’d prefer Nolasco, as he seems more established, and if I recall correctly, wasn’t Johnson the one who had the anger and focus issues (or was that another Marlins pitcher? Perhaps I am thinking of the wrong one), but it seems the Marlins would like an upgrade at catcher and perhaps Shoppach included in a package could entice them to give up a starter, being that they seem to have a surplus of starters at the ML and upper-minors levels (I think).
You can see information on Ricky Nolasco here and Josh Johnson here.
However, if we happen to keep Shoppach, I would not be opposed to that either; if I’m trading Shoppach, like you, I want a guy who can be a dependable #3 starter, not one who has a bunch of question marks (all the more reason why I’d prefer Nolasco to Johnson, who seems more erratic to me in terms of command and consistency).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the angry Marlin is Scott Olsen.
by cleveland teamer on Dec 11, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hello Cleveland teamer,
Yes! – that’s it. I thought he was left-handed, but I couldn’t remember his name – thanks!
Forget about what I said about Johnson; I still think Nolasco is more established and would prefer him to Johnson, but I’d take Johnson too, knowing now he is NOT the one with the emotional “issues.”
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 11:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hear that Olsen has struggled with quitting smoking, something that I finally managed, but, I gotta say, quitting it tough and if you’re already a sonofabitch it just amplifies that to the extreme.
A recently elected national public executive—and an undeniably gifted leader—struggles with it to the point of giving in. It’s powerful stuff.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is great.
i note that 4.35 walks per inning pitched seems like an awful lot for Joe.
by emil minty on Dec 11, 2008 12:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I step away from this board at about 6 pm mountain last night, and miss about 1000 comments. this is why I had to cut myself off of this place.
Being of the opinion that we were no longer the team to invest at-bats in the myth of Frankie G, I see this trade as a positive. Smith is good reliever, simple as that, and we can always use that. Valbuena is another breakout candidate to watch (our prospect bats are going to be roughly 1000x more fun to follow this year).
Let’s check in with the outfield again.
Against righties: Sizemore, Choo, and Dellucci.
Against lefties: Sizemore, Choo (or DD), and Francisco.
I can live with that for now.
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 12:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
As the team is presently constituted, I got to believe that Francisco will probably play against righties, too. Last year, their splits were about the same and Ben’s all around game is better.
Something funny, but not in the least bit significant. Dellucci had 18 PA against lefties, and in those 18 PA, he didn’t have a hit or a walk, but did manage to get hit by a pitch.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“their splits” meaning Francisco or Dellucci versus RHP? The numbers are close, which is quite sad for DD.
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Either (a) Dellucci is the better bet against RHP over the long haul, or (b) Dellucci is done and should be DFA’ed.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My answer is b. I just have a hard time seeing where the improvement comes from, maybe a little better luck on balls in play. He’s going to be 35 and he’s not very athletic so I would lean towards him getting worse.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I’m getting at is, he’s not likely to be losing AB to Francisco for very long if he’s still on the roster.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we don’t acquire another starting OF, I would rather keep Dellucci than just DFA him. Can’t imagine the upside to just cutting him loose without a replacement who fits the roster better, except maybe if LaPorta slugs 2000 in spring training.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dellucci can be the Trot Nixon Memorial Odd Numbered Year Pie Distributor.
by FredOx on Dec 11, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, doesn’t it make sense to switch out Dellucci for a righty?
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why? We have Francisco as the righty. We have two lefty OF and two righties.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 3:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t we have three lefties and one righty?
by SuddenSam on Dec 11, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LaPorta is our second righty. No need to trade for another one.
by Kenyafan on Dec 11, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, hell, yes, obviously we do. I can’t even tell you who I was confused about, I just didn’t think it through.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Get to bed at a decent hour tonight.
by SuddenSam on Dec 11, 2008 8:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sizemore-L, Choo-L, Francisco-R, and Delluci-L. Dellucci isn’t likely to hit right handed pitching better than either Francisco or Choo.
Choo had an OPS against lefties last year of .800, but in only 84 PA. On top of it being a small sample size, it was supported by a .396 BABIP. In Choo’s minor-league career, he had an OPS against lefties of .708. It would seem unlikely that Choo is going to have much success against lefties this season. If Dellucci is our fourth outfielder, one of them has to play.
If we cut bait on Dellucci, we can probably pick up a low cost righty to play left or right, depending on where you want to play Francisco. Somebody like Emil Brown.
by ClarkM on Dec 11, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But then his grit quotient rises, so it balances out. And he’s about the last of his kind on the roster, so that makes him even more preciousss.
by mcrose on Dec 11, 2008 2:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. They’ll figure this out by the second or third month of the season, I would guess.
by Kenyafan on Dec 11, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If I’m correct, doesn’t Francisco have a pretty solid track record hitting RHP, even moreso than against LHP. If so, that would make Dellucci’s leash pretty short in my opinion, since it seems Dellucci can’t hit LHP at all and is only marginal against RHP.
With Francisco being cheaper, better in the OF, and being able to hit RHP better than Dellucci, the only question would be is if Francisco can hit LHP well enough to be the regular starting LFer. If he can’t, then you would think you would want to pick up another RH-OFer, such as Emil Brown as ClarkM mentioned.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That first sentence should be a question – whoops!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t matter if Francisco is cheaper in comparison to Delucci. We have to pay Delucci regardless so I think they will give him “plenty” of time to see if he can regain some of his ability to hit righthanders that he had in Philadelphia. It’s that potential, we’re still waiting for.
Francisco’s splits are not as severe as Delluci’s.
by Kenyafan on Dec 12, 2008 8:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we might see Dellucci released or traded during Spring Training. If they don’t see some good bat speed out of him, there won’t be any more reason to keep him around. With Gutierrez gone, one significant issue is that we really don’t have much short-term protection for Choo, even just to sit him against lefties sometimes, and Dellucci is not really any help there.
by Jay on Dec 12, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We’d probably have to eat his entire salary if we traded him, right? I recall reading somewhere that Shapiro had explored any sort of trade for scraps, and the market was nothing
Not that I am against it
by Roger Dorn on Dec 12, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s picked up salary before, so I’m not sure it’s a big deal.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 12, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I guess the real point is that we’ve already eaten the salary. It’s already gone, with not much chance of coming back.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 12:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At this point, we’d have to eat the whole thing. It’s always possible he can show enough stick in the spring that someone will take half his salary — if it can happen with Ricky Gutierrez and his spinal injury, it can happen with anyone. Having said that, if he’s showing something, why trade him? We don’t have a slam-dunk guy waiting in the minors to replace him as far as I know, and does anyone really want to see Crowe in the majors, regardless of whether he’s on the bench or in the lineup? I don’t. Not now.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 12:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No. And I’m pretty sunny in viewing our prospects. Of course, I don’t really care about that last position on the bench. I’d rather have Crowe than some prospect who should actually be getting at-bats.
by dgcambridge on Dec 13, 2008 12:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a question why is everyone so down on Crowe? Would he not be a better option than Dellucci, as a 4th outfielder? In the AL not much is asked of the 4th outfielder. Crowe would provide above average D, can bunt, and run. Plus if he is going hold down one spot on the 40 man roster, do we not need to find out what he can do?
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Dec 16, 2008 1:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m actually coming back around on my opinion of Crowe, for some of the reasons f.i.t. mentions. It would be kind of cool to have a fourth outfielder who could be a Ben Francisco with a little more speed and defensive versatility.
That said, minorleaguesplits says Crowe and Francisco have roughly equivalent Major League plate discipline, but Ben’s ahead by about 60 points of slugging. It’s going to take a lot of extra flyball outs and stolen bases to make up for that, especially when you consider that Ben has a fairly neutral platoon split.
by fleerdon on Dec 16, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Crowe’s MLE this season was 722 OPS, and that was 100 points better than his previous best. I’m not convinced that he necessarily will even remain that good, and he’s considered a fringy option in CF.
I don’t think we have much reason to be super-confident about Francisco and Choo holding down lineup spots at the plate, so I don’t know that we need a mediocre glove-first guy as much as we need another bat. That may not be Dellucci, but it definitely isn’t Crowe.
by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Been considering that. Right-handed outfielders who can play right seems like a pretty thin market right now, unless somebody knows of a stalled out AAA guy who’s struggling to hit righties. Or we could get Jason Dubois back.
Anybody still want Kearns? I’m pretty sure we could make that happen. Or how about buying way too high on Nelson Cruz?
Eesh. Better hit the weights, Francisco, we might need you out there.
by fleerdon on Dec 13, 2008 10:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Emil Brown: In 2008, OPS against LHP, .812 in 166 PA.
2007, .823 in 160 PA.
2006, .781 in 177 PA.
He’ll be 34 next year and he isn’t a great defender (not terrible either), but for a low-cost one year deal, I think he might be worth it. He made 1.45 Million last year, and it’s hard to imagine he’s in line for much of a raise.
by ClarkM on Dec 13, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure I’m okay with that. I mentioned this above, but I wonder if we won’t be in on Abreu or another option in the FA’s.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Dec 11, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like how you think.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tribe could go from one of the best RFs on the planet to one of the worst.
by JulioBernazard on Dec 11, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps not the best defensively, but I like the offensive upgrade.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Dec 11, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jeff from LL on Frankie:
Though it may not be the first thing that comes to mind when you see an outfielder with a .691 OPS, Gutierrez is the gem of the trade return, and here’s why – he’s one of the best defensive outfielders on the planet. PMR likes him. UZR loves him. Plus/minus had sex with him on Adam Everett’s coffee table.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 12:18 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Plus/minus had sex with him on Adam Everett’s coffee table.
Baseball porn is awesome.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i’m spent
this reply should go here, not in reply to the original thread…it is much more appropriate here.
by stickpiano on Dec 12, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i’m spent
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 11, 2008 12:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
My initial reaction was wtf? but after sitting with it a while I can understand Shapiro’s reasoning. I think Joe Smith is a great pickup, as young as he is. I recall how effective Matt Miller was for a while, and Smith seems like a better version.
Valbuena (“good value/good riddance”, luv it) looks to also be a good pickup at a thin area, especially if he develops some power to go along with his plate discipline. His winter numbers this year are encouraging – we could be picking up a guy right when he hits the strength/maturity turning point in his development.
Despite the crunching of overall value making this a good trade, the point about what it does for us in ‘09 is a big one. The reason Shap signed Kerry was not to improve down the line, but to compete immediately. It’s hard not to view El Guti leaving as a significant loss, simply because of his everyday defense and his overlooked value as a stellar speller/backup to Grady in CF. But seeing as part of Guti’s value was the promise at the plate that never came, I’m ok with Choo/BenFran getting occasional CF play in his stead.
I was a big fan of Franky, mostly for the grace and ease with which he roamed the outfield, and I always thought he was the best CF in the system. So, I’ll have to add that I’m happy for him – he’ll get a fair shot to finally play the position he’s so good at, at the highest level. And who knows? Mebbe that will spark the consistency at the plate we’ve all been waiting for. If it does, I probly won’t be too pissed, figuring it was unlikely to happen in Cleveland.
So, overall, I’m ok with it for ’09, barely, and solidly behind it for beyond that.
by mcrose on Dec 11, 2008 12:32 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Beautiful synopsis of Franky G there, mcrose.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
his overlooked value as a stellar speller/backup to Grady in CF
You can never underestimate the positive clubhouse impact of a good speller. Is it any coincidence some of the grittiest players have some of the most alphabet-soup-y names?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Those guys tend to be white, so no, it’s not a coincidence.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 11, 2008 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So are we saying the whiteness is the cause of the good spelling or that there is simply a correlation?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, the whiteness is the cause of the alphabet soup names (per you) as well as the cause of being called gritty (per Jhon and general blogosphere consensus).
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, gotcha.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 11, 2008 2:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I just notice Joe Smith (F – SEA) in the tags. Well done. But shouldn’t it be Joe Smith (F – OKC)?
This marks the second time in two years that a Cleveland team has traded for Joe Smith. Of course, the Cavs then traded their Joe Smith for Mo Williams, who has made them an elite team. Maybe the Indians can do the same.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 11, 2008 1:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
or the Browns trade Shaun Smith for Moe Williams?

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d argue that Asdrubal is on our roster because Bavasi is an idiot.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 11, 2008 1:55 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hard to disagree with that. I thought we’d miss Bavasi running the M’s, but the addition of Valbuena suggests that might be unnecessary. Assuming he pans out of course.
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 11, 2008 2:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jack, Omar, and Mark seem to have a good working relationship. Jack obviously was familiar with our players from the Brewers deal. I’d like to think there’s a new relationship between Cleveland and Seattle’s GMs, a healthy one where we all end up happy.
“Gutierrez is the player that made this deal happen,” Zduriencik said. “[Mets GM] Omar [Minaya] and I had a discussion late today, and I told him I had to get a center fielder in one of these deals and the guy I really want is in Cleveland.”
As it turned out, the Mets and Indians also had been talking trade.
“Omar called me back a half-hour later and told me we could get the guy I wanted.”
And just like that, the blockbuster deal was done
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 11, 2008 2:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hard to believe I left anything out, but it was four in the morning …
I just updated the article with a little note about Valbuena in the VWL.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 2:47 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
UPDATE: The icing on the cake is that he’s got a 901 OPS in 38 games in the Venezuelan Winter League. He’s spending three months as the starting 2B for the Cardenales de Lara, whose starting shortstop is … Asdrubal Cabrera.
Slobber.
by Brick. on Dec 11, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah…. just wow.
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and confident that Gutz will succeed in Seattle.
by mjmarble on Dec 11, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We could in theory field an infield with winter league OPS of .935, 1.038, .901 and .754, wherein Jhonny is at the low end.
by FredOx on Dec 11, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Asdrubal as the starter is a bit of an overstatement. Valbuena’s played in 38 games…Cabrera just 8.
by APV on Dec 12, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think this move has me convinced Shoppach is getting moved soon. Positional strength (Bictor, Toregas, Santana) and we have more needs than cash right now.
by joeee on Dec 11, 2008 3:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So are we satisfied with the infield at this point? I’m not. Maybe Valbuena (or Barfield) emerges as a solid Major Leaguer, but I am uncomfortable in 2009 to bank on that. Obviously, the really good infielders available (Hudson, Furcal) are out of our price range now (after the Wood signing) and had too many injury risk questions so do we think it is possible that the Indians will target a shorter term, lower risk, cheaper infield option now, but one that is more of a guaranteed upgrade over Valbuena, Barfield, or Marte? A Crede on a one year incentive-laden deal or a Wigginton with one more year on contract deal?
Props to Ryan and Jay. Nice write-ups!
by Kenyafan on Dec 11, 2008 3:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
I don’t think it’s accurate to say those guys are out of our price range. I think it’s accurate to say that the Indians don’t consider them healthy enough to be worth giving FA money to.
I don’t see us signing anyone else unless it’s a flier guy like Felipe Lopez, and I can’t see a trade happening unless we can find a good match for Shoppach, i.e., a similar caliber player on a similar contract. Think Brian Roberts, but not quite as good, and with two years left instead of one. Is there anyone out there like that, and are they playing for teams that needs a starting catcher more than they need that infielder?
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t think of a team in need of a catcher who has a good, cheap infielder who would be under our control for a number of years. I wouldn’t advocate trading Shoppach for Wigginton.
Since Shapiro is an opportunist, I could see him trading for a guy later on after the off-season market dries up. Some teams may be feeling the economic downturn more than others and will want to unload even reasonable salaries. Same can be said for free agents. After a while, prices may become more affordable and shorter.
by Kenyafan on Dec 11, 2008 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Dallas MacPherson has three years of control remaining. I think we deserve more than just him for Shoppach, but it would be a good match in the sense that both teams would be selling high.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Referring to my post above, what would it take to get McPherson and one of the starting pitchers from the Marlins, preferably Nolasco?
I suspect it would take more than Shoppach, but how much more? Would we have to give up a Mills or Weglarz, or perhaps give up a starting pitcher in return, perhaps Laffey or Huff, along with a minor prospect? Would that be a realistic possibility? Just curious – thanks.
I too echo the great write-up you and Ryan made – keep up the great work!
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Joe. We decided to try rockin’ it “Rob and Rany Style” for a change. Bottom line, we’re hoping the next deal is announced before 11 p.m.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I loved reading Rob and Rany. Maybe you and Paul could do that for the Indians.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 12, 2008 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect that if it included Nolasco, it would have to include Huff or Laffey. I don’t know enough about Nolasco to know if I would do that trade.
by Kenyafan on Dec 12, 2008 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would not trade Huff for Nolasco or Johnson. I really want Johnson badly though.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 12, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it’s troubling how much that part of my brain is turned on right now
by Brick. on Dec 12, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ugh
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 12, 2008 7:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d deal Huff for Nolasco, but that’s because I’m an Indians fan. The Marlins wouldn’t. Josh Johnson’s an awesome target too, but I don’t see the Marlins moving him either. He’s still cheap, and there’s no incentive.
The downside is that Nolasco and Johnson both have more service time than you’d think, because both have spent considerable time on the DL. Nolasco’s is a super-2, and Johnson’s arb eligible for the first time due to his time on the 60-day DL this year.
by xrickx on Dec 12, 2008 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve voiced this opinion before—that I fell that the Marlins are a special, extreme money-conscious entity in which the first year of arbitration is an issue so maybe there is an incentive for them to trade Nolasco. Then again if that is the case then maybe they target Saltamacchia instead of Shoppach for that reason. But I could see a Shoppach and Huff trade for Nolasco and McPherson. Is McPherson eligible for arbitration?
by Kenyafan on Dec 12, 2008 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He’s right, that is something to be exploited. The Marlins are usually pretty good about waiting around for a sucker, though. Notice how Shapiro is slowly working his way into Minaya’s favor.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 12:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
D-Backs have signed Lopez to a one-year deal, not that you were feeling all schwervy inside about Felipe.
by FredOx on Dec 11, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is nobody a fan of Willy Aybar?
Aybar was acquired last spring to provide insurance/competition for Evan Longoria. Obviously, he’s not needed in that role. He’s a second baseman by trade, but he’s probably outgrown that position. Tampa doesn’t need a catcher, but it needs some bullpen help. Cleveland suddenly has an excess of relievers. While more relievers than seven will be needed to get through a season, the Indians can afford to deal one or two.
by xrickx on Dec 12, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d take Aybar for relievers…. can’t tell what Tampa would ask for…
by Logodaedalus on Dec 12, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t feel we have an excess of relievers.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Barfield holds it for Valbuena later in the year. Carroll, Marte, Peralta, Cabrera, and Barfield, with Valbuena up halfway through. I think that’s our 2b-SS-3b situation.
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think there’s a better chance of carroll getting the majority of at bats than barfield. barfield may start the year there (though i don’t think he will), but i don’t think he’ll last.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 11, 2008 6:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, you may be right. Although Carroll will probably getting at-bats everywhere, as the golden boy.
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 7:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would like for Barfield to get at-bats in Columbus to work on improving his hitting and possibly defense as well. Then next year, it would be a straight up competition between Barfield and Valbuena. Of course, if both players are in Columbus, were would both of them get their at-bats? Anybody ever see anything where Valbuena has the ability to play some SS?
by Kenyafan on Dec 12, 2008 8:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what he was supposed to be doing in Buffalo last year. The results were “meh”.
by woodsmeister on Dec 12, 2008 9:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Valbuena is not a viable shortstop, as I understand it, nor do the Indians have any reason for him to play shortstop even for one day.
by Jay on Dec 12, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a moot point because he doesn’t play shortstop, but more flexibility is always a good thing.
by Kenyafan on Dec 12, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, then, they can ask Garko to play shortstop, too.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the Indians want a shortstop, Ryan Garko is going to … nah.
by fleerdon on Dec 13, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why are we not more excited about Valbuena? My argument: He’s not much further behind Astro on the prospect scale. Granted, Astro has got a year of youth on him (per level, approximately, and this is important). He also plays a more valuable defensive position, and this too is important – but they’re really not dissimilar players. Both are obviously very young middle infielders, but their numbers are scary similar:
Astro: 5 seasons in minors, 1616 ABs, 288/350/421 successful AA at 21(310/383/454)
Valbuenastro: 4 seasons in minors, 1675 ABs, 270/346/405 successful AA at 22 (304/381/483)
Anyway, Astro is a better player, sure. But we can’t say right now that he will end up being a better player, just that he probably will. If Valbo does end up being better 3 years from now, we shouldn’t be too surprised.
This was a stellar deal for us. Joe the non-plumber alone would have been a good deal – sidearm in a B+ prospect in a position of need and you should be flat-out excited.
by Thommy on Dec 11, 2008 6:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
+1 – agree wholeheartedly! :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I basically agree. There are two main differences between AbaCab and ¡Valbueno!, defensive ability and (as you note) one year of youth. But the new guy apparently is a solid enough defender at 2B, and the age difference only means that the new guy is young and advanced, as compared with the “old” guy, who is obscenely young and advanced. That difference probably makes AbaCab a much more significant power threat going forward, but we need more solid lineup guys, and Luis looks like one.
by Jay on Dec 11, 2008 7:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I keep looking back at the write-ups, and the power question keeps getting to me. I’ve seen “minimal pop”, and this is no minimal pop. I see his age and his numbers, and think he’s got a shot at being a 20 hr guy, which would change his outlook quite a bit.
I know that’s mostly me being optomistic. Here, I’ll try some stat fun:
He’s had double-digit home runs in 3 of his 4 seasons.
Last year, he had more home runs than Brown, Weglarz, Goedert, Giminez, Barfield, Cabrera, Aubrey, Crowe, Rodriguez, or Whitney. Also, Travis Hafner and Victor Martinez.
by dgcambridge on Dec 11, 2008 7:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ouch on hafner and martinez. big ouch.
i too think the power issues are a bit premature. fun with numbers and letters: AA, 22 years, .483 SLG.
by Thommy on Dec 11, 2008 8:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Upside down exclamation points.
by oxforddave on Dec 11, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jay – how did you do that (the upside exclamation mark, I mean)? :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 11, 2008 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
¿HTML entity codes?
¿Or a Spanish language keyboard?
by still ill on Dec 12, 2008 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…or a mac with an option key…
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 12, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Been using those same key combinations forever.
by Jay on Dec 12, 2008 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or copy, paste from another website.
¡Valbueno!
by Brick. on Dec 12, 2008 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
for the record, vote for ¡Valbueno! to be his official name for all contexts as you have used it.
¡Valbueno! had two walks, a double and a K last night.
Choo and ¡Valbueno! will have the night off tonight with the tough lefty on the mound.
by Brick. on Dec 12, 2008 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we want to put an ! directly after his name to indicate further excitement, do we have to put another one in front as well? I can only imagine the inevitable chaos when this is attempted by someone from Bay Village .
by Thommy on Dec 12, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Figured there was a simple way to do it – thanks! :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 14, 2008 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Guys, it’s approaching four hours. It’s time to contact your doctor.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 12, 2008 4:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I initially thought this deal was crazy for the Mets, but I think in a lot of ways it’s kind of like the trades we always come up with here at the site. Lets trade a bunch of guys we don’t want for the guy we do. The Mets threw in a fair amount of youth, but not youth most people seem particularly high on. Maybe this was a win win win.
by APV on Dec 12, 2008 8:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I actually liked it the most for the Mets without knowing much about the minor leaguers they gave up. It doesn’t make sense for most clubs to make a trade like this, but for teams with resources like the Mets have, I think it makes perfect sense
by Roger Dorn on Dec 12, 2008 11:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Valbuena’s continuing to hit in Venezuela. 306/367/559 with 15 XBHs in 40 games. Also, Fausto had another decent start (5.1IP, 0BB, 5K).
by APV on Dec 13, 2008 1:10 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
rec
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 13, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Never mind, I’ll do it …
Valbuena is at +4 — those CS are killing him, and he has been striking out a bit much.
Fausto is at +10 — he’s given up four home runs in five starts, but only one double.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In Fausto’s last start, he gave up a HR to Saltalamacchia on a pitch (fastball, I think) right down the inner-half of home plate (i.e. meatball mistake pitch). I seen that on ESPN; I also seen where Fausto painted the outside corner ever so slightly to strike out a guy, so overall, a decent start – he just has to hone the command more to minimize the mistakes.
Hopefully, he can continue doing that, and even more importantly, stay healthy! :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Dec 14, 2008 12:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No walks. How many times did he do that in 2008?
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah…it’s Fausto 25K:6BB number that’s the good one.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting to me that the acquisition which may get Barfield another chance is … a promising young second baseman.
by fleerdon on Dec 13, 2008 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It doesn’t make sense at first glance, but yeah. If the Indians feel that Valbuena is their guy for 2010, then obviously the big signing or trade goes out the window. You could sign a cheap one-year option, but could you get anyone for that price that would be better than Jamey Carroll? Of course, all this assumes that Peralta’s moving to third, but if he isn’t, then you can substitute Andy Marte for Barfield.
by Ryan on Dec 13, 2008 10:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
barring additional offseason acquisitions, I think it would take a truly terrible showing in the early weeks of spring training for the Peralta to 3rd switch not to take place for 2009. the organization has already been plugging his 3B play in the Dominican this winter. either that, or Hodges and Valbuena get to battle it out to see who will be the better major leaguer (a race Valbuena’s got a considerable head start on)
by APV on Dec 13, 2008 11:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with Barfield, and the problem for Barfield, is that most pitchers are righthanded, and the evidence is that Valbuena is already a better hitter vs RHP (710 MLE last season) than Barfield has ever been (675 and 610 in his two full seasons, 536 MLE in Buffalo last season). I mean, even in 2007 in Double-A, when his overall numbers were not good, Valbuena still had a 658 MLE vs RHP, and that’s better than Barfield would be expected to do.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s my question re- Barfield: what happened to his power. He went from:
AGE 20 SLG: .530 A+
AGE 21 SLG: .417 AA
AGE 22 SLG: .450 AAA
AGE 23 SLG: .423 MLB
to post trade-
AGE 24 SLG: .324 MLB
AGE 25 SLG: .368 AAA
He never was going to walk a ton or get on base consistently, but the value was hitting for some pop at a young age and the potential to hit 20 HRs and steal 20 bases while playing second base. What happened?
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 16, 2008 12:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
actually if you look at his isolated power:
AGE 20: .193 A+
AGE 21: .169 AA
AGE 22: .140 AAA (PCL league)
AGE 23: .143 ML (SDP)
to post trade-
AGE 24: .081 ML (CLE)
AGE 25: .117 AAA
I’d say he started losing it in AAA. My assumption was that our FO saw his AGE 23 campaign in SD, saw that he at least maintained that power he held in the PCL the year before and thought that he would improve as he aged into his mid 20s. For perspective, a .140 ISO puts him in the Mark Ellis, Jose Lopez, Robinson Cano power range per 2008 ML stats. As I look at even what he was able to do in SD and especially since he’s been here, I don’t think he should be counted on to be a regular for this team this year. As you mention, without power he really doesn’t offer much else.
by hans on Dec 16, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, maybe he lost it a bit earlier. His age 20 season was a bit of an outlier. But Mark Ellis/Cano/Lopez type of power was exactly what I was thinking. I just don’t get how it so totally fell off. I mean, losing a .030 of ISO from AA to AAA is one thing, but he gained .003 back while being promoted to San Diego the next year. The real headscratcher is the .042 drop when he spent his full year in Cleveland. Sure, the AL is the better league, but there were no signs of him being THAT power-less during the last 4 seasons of his career. I still don’t get how it happened. Its makes Marte’s decline seem gradual.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 16, 2008 7:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There can’t be THAT much difference, can there?
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 17, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For a player whose ability is right on the threshold, maybe.
Would I expect that difference to show up across a large pool of players? No.
But for a few players? Sure, why not.
by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Would you really rather have Valbuena and Smith than Teahen?
Not being snarky. Just asking.
The immoderate moderator
by NYRoyal on Dec 21, 2008 5:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yes. We have a lack of middle infielders in the upper part of our system.
by APV on Dec 21, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. Teahen’s a mediocre player who’s already hit arbitration — Valbuena won’t have to turn out to be that great to be more valuable than he is, and he’s under control for at least three more seasons at minimum salary.
by Jay on Dec 21, 2008 9:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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