It's Official - Wood is an Indian
Kerry Wood passed the physical and has been signed. Still no official word on the details of the contract.
UPDATE: It's a two-year deal for a guaranteed $20.5 million, plus a third year vesting option. Wood receives $10 million in 2009 and $10.5 million in 2010. The club option for 2011 is at $11 million, and that third year becomes guaranteed if Wood finishes 55 or more games in one season, either 2009 or 2010.
Ironically, a pitcher is credited with a "game finished" when he blows a save on the road — he's the last pitcher once he gives up the walkoff — but not generally when he blows a save at home. It's an arbitrary stat, as the CBA generally prohibits the use of direct performance-based stats for incentive clauses, in favor of playing-time stats and indirect performance indicators such as postseason awards.
For context, Bob Wickman finished 55-60 games in six different seasons. Wood finished 56 games in 2008, his first full season as a reliever. [Jay]
about 1 year ago
woodsmeister
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“News of Wood’s impending signing generated a buzz among Indians fans this week…”
Understatement of the year.
Thank you Santa for the early present!
by RD74 on Dec 13, 2008 10:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good. My paranoia was starting to creep in during the delay.
by KevinV on Dec 13, 2008 11:12 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
This news comes as a relief to me too.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 13, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From Castrovince:
Wood deal done
Kerry Wood passed his physical and has signed a two-year contract worth nearly $20 million. The contract includes a club option that has a vesting mechanism within it.
General manager Mark Shapiro will discuss the signing — and that complicated option — on a conference call with reporters this afternoon.
by millionairesrow on Dec 13, 2008 11:19 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
In many respects, Wood’s last season compares favorably with any given Joe Nathan’s. With his periphs, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Wood’s ERA cut in half in another trial. It’s nice to have a guy with league-independent stuff.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 13, 2008 12:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I name you official “smeister” of our new closer.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 13, 2008 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’ve heard 2 years 20.5 million from ESPN.
by mjschaefer on Dec 13, 2008 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That is what the AP/Yahoo has too. link
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 13, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is awesome
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 13, 2008 1:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
ESPN is reporting it’s a 2 year, $20.5 million contract with an $11 million option for 2011. That option would become guarenteed if Wood finished 55 games in either of the next two years. He appeared in 65 games this past year (and I assume he finished most of them) so if he’s healthy either of the next two years then it’s almost certain the third year will be vested. So, barring injuries both years, we’re looking at a 3 year, $31.5 million contract.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 13, 2008 1:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
He finished 56 of 65 appearances last season. I don’t think it’s a given this option will vest if this is how it’s structured
by APV on Dec 13, 2008 1:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, I didn’t see that. I assume he finished more than that, so you’re right. That’s probably where they came up with that number — he will have to be healthy and effective (and the Indians giving him many save opportunities) to reach 55.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 13, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, Borowski finished 58 games in ’07 for the Tribe.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 13, 2008 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Happy Day! I was worried something would come up and this would fall through….
Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and confident that Gutz will succeed in Seattle.
by mjmarble on Dec 13, 2008 2:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn’t the thread be titled “Wood an Indian”
Pass the cigars
by akolenz on Dec 13, 2008 3:14 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
i really like the 55 game clause. good move shap
by citrusvanilla on Dec 13, 2008 3:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
it says to wood that the indians are going to be relying on him big big time and trust him with the ball late(75+ appearances) and that if healthy, we defintely want him in the franchise longer term.
by citrusvanilla on Dec 13, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention the buzz this signing will create amongst the every-other-year tribe fan. we get one more half decent signing and the early reports coming in indicate tribe coming out on top of the central- could be crowded at the jake this summer. superstoked!
by citrusvanilla on Dec 13, 2008 3:54 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
question: does wood’s effect on attendence partially offset concerns of slightly inflated contract?
by citrusvanilla on Dec 13, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How contract is not inflated at all. It is deflated due to the relative glut of closers. That’s how we were actually able to sign him.
by KevinV on Dec 13, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure the Indians don’t factor in whether a signing is going to make a buzz with the fans. This effect, if it exists at all, is most likely short-term. They signed Wood because they believe he is going to help them win, and winning is the best way to bring fans to the park, get them to watch STO, and buy jerseys.
by ClarkM on Dec 13, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying the FO wasn’t thinking about making a buzz when they signed Tomo Ohka?
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 13, 2008 6:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are very, very dry, CW. Almost as dry as Ryan.
by Jay on Dec 13, 2008 7:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“A who’s who of Tribe pitching prospects and Jason Stanford.”
by fleerdon on Dec 13, 2008 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s all in good fun my friend. In any event, I’m sure Kobayashi is excited about the acquisition.
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 14, 2008 5:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I must be the only Indian fan that hates this.
2008 payroll: $78,970,067
Kerry Wood: $10,500,000
We are spending between 10-15% of our 2009 payroll on a reliever.
With huge injury risks.
That hasn’t been able to pitch effectively for a full year since 2004.
WHAT
THE
FJSDGKDBNSD:JSDKHKLJSDSDKJ
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:22 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
this was a smart play.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 14, 2008 12:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I’ve said many times, it is foolish and pointless to evaluate free agent salaries as a percentage of total payroll. Players are split into three distinct salary classifications representing three completely different scales of payment. Wood’s contract is about half of what a borderline #3 starter like Kyle Lohse gets. It is very much in proportion with the market, which values each marginal win at nearly $5 million. Wood contributed 2.2 leveraged wins to the Cubs last season, which puts his salary in line. Moreover, because Wood is an addition to our bullpen depth and does not replace another player on the 2009 roster, his real contribution is relative to our 8th, 9th or even 10th best reliever.
The onus is on the critic of a signing to explain how the team might better use those funds. You haven’t, and my bet is that you can’t.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 12:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The onus is on the critic of a signing to explain how the team might better use those funds. You haven’t, and my bet is that you can’t.
Let’s play a game. Name this reliever:
79.1 IP, 9 BB, 80 K, 4 HR. 1.47 ERA 0.756 WHIP
True or false: These numbers are better than Kerry Wood circa 2008?
What happened to this reliever in the year afterwards?
My point is this: Reliever performance is highly variable. Throw in major injury concerns and you have a recipe for disaster.
As for spending the money, how about using it and a bit more to sign Rafael Furcal? Just because we had $10m to spend doesn’t mean we should simply spend it for the hell of it. That’s what gets you B.J. Ryan.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 2:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Furcal? Yeah he’s not injury prone! Let’s spend a little more for a REAL safe bet.
by rockemsockem on Dec 14, 2008 3:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Injury risk? LOL.
That’s your argument?
Really?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/furcara02.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/woodke02.shtml
Which one has more missed time?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 3:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also: Buy low, sell high.
Since we should be buying low and selling high, who is more likely to be overvalued? The guy who just pitched his first full season out of four years or the guy who was extremely durable and suffered leg injuries the year before he was granted FA?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 3:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
More than just leg injuries but a back injury that has nagged him for the past two seasons. Also knee surgery in the offseason before ‘07. Yes, Wood has missed more time in the past but in the present I see Wood as a better bet than Furcal. Not to mention Furcaljust turned down a 4 year deal while with Wood the Indians are only committed for two years if Wood is a bust. Also Furcal’s last “healthy” season was atrocious.
by rockemsockem on Dec 14, 2008 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not clear to me what your comparison with Betancourt is meant to demonstrate. Performance of relievers is variable, but it also gets less variable as you move higher up the quality scale. Betancourt himself is evidence of this. However, Betancourt also demonstrates why this is sometimes the case. Relievers often succeed (or fail) based on their ability to effectively use their limited skill. For Betancourt it is his ability to locate his fastball with his deceptive delivery. Last year he struggled mightily when he lost some of his ability to do that. Wood is not Betancourt. Wood has the talent and ability to be a starting pitcher. Shapiro & Co. are making the bet that Wood has more margin of error as a closer than most relievers because he has a lot more talent than more relievers. As such, they are making a 2-3 bet that he can maintain that ability given he stays healthy. That’s a bet I’m fully willing to sign on to. Also, it’s not at all clear to me that Betancourt ‘07 was better than Wood ’08…better walk rates for Betancourt, better K rates for Wood. I’ll probably go with the latter.
I would have posted over at your blog, but it tells me I have to wait 24 hours to do so.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 9:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For a second, let’s assume everything you say is true. How do you account for the numbers Fangraphs and other sites talk about in combination with the very real injury risk he represents? You can feel free to discount entirely my biomechanical analysis if you think it is suspect and simply look at the past four years.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
contract arguments bring the stupid out in me, so i’m going to avoid that to some degree. but even if he is overpriced, he’s not overpriced by $10M/year, he’s overpriced by something like $1-2M per. regarding the K vs. IP argument….forecasts of K-rates are a lot more accurate than forecasts of innings pitched. Injury is a real risk and I don’t mean to discount your biomechnical analysis – but I am assuming that the Indians also have some understanding of the mechanics of pitching. I’m also assuming, I think reliably, that the Indians have both looked at much much much more film of Wood and had access to much more detailed medical records on him and therefore can much more accurately value the risk of injury associated with him.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 11:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, clearly he is not overpriced by $10m/year since that’s how much he costs. :)
I agree that strikeout rates have less variability from year-to-year and are more meaningful than innings pitched. I was just saying that 07 Betancourt had more value than 08 Wood since 07 Betancourt was one of the best years for a reliever of all time!
Still, if you assume a 0% injury risk over 2-3 years, Kerry Wood has to outperform nearly all reasonable projections for him (as I linked to in my post from Fangraphs and other posters) to earn his salary. So, assuming his drop in walk rate is real and his strikeout rate stays this high, we’re overpaying by $1-2m/year and that’s not too bad. (Still, spending that much payroll on a reliever when the lineup has a ton of holes is questionable IMO.)
However, as soon as you start increasing that injury risk percentage even slightly, the deal starts to look really bad.
I said to discount my biomechanical analysis entirely to simplify the deal, not because I thought that you thought my work was irrelevant.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but in making the comparison you were using Betancourt to suggest something about the value of Wood in ‘09 – and that’s really a statement about health, not the relative cumulative value of Wood in ’08 or Betancourt in ’07
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The comparison was meant to illustrate the variability in relievers and to shed light on the oft-forgotten concept that closers (with very few exceptions, such as Huston Street) are not born – they are made.
Am I willing to believe that Kerry Wood is better than the average reliever as far as variability goes? Of course. He was a dominant starter; most closers (sans John Smoltz) never were that good in the rotation. However, how far do we take this concept?
My point is that even if we accept all these concepts as truth – that his walk rate stays this low, that his strikeout rate stays this high, that his HR/FB ratio does not come back to own him (he was nearly two times under what would be expected), and that the tougher league does not really hurt him – he is still slightly overpaid. And when we start introducing variables like opportunity cost and injury risk, well…
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Relievers ranked by 2008 FIP who are out of the team control/arbitration years w/2009 salary (if available):
Rivera 2.03 $15M
Fuentes 2.24 ?
Wood 2.32 $10M
Lidge 2.41 $11.5M
Nathan 2.79 $11.25M
K-Rod 3.22 $8.5M (AAV 12.3M)
Ryan 2.14 $10M (2006 FIP)
The Indians paid the going rate for a top-tier closer. You can argue that they simply didn’t need to add a top-tier closer, but that is a different argument than the argument they overpaid for Wood.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t this just mean that all closers were overpaid?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or alternatively, closers, for whatever reason, get valued differently
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 12:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I fail to see how that alleviates spending on an overpriced good?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s simple economics. If a good is sold for a certain rate, it is worth that rate. Top-tier relievers cost around $10 million a year. As that is the market price, none of the aforementioned relievers are overpriced.
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If a good is sold for a certain rate, it is worth that rate.
As a student of economics, you have this quite wrong. If a good is sold for a certain rate, that is what the market price for that rate is. Using the tools we have, we can determine the value or worth of a good, and relievers simply do not produce the value that their contracts demand. That the “closer” tag is an luxury that people pay additional money for does not make it worth anything.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can Furcal pitch the ninth inning of a game?
These are distinct postions, You can sign all the Furcals in the world but none of them are going to close games. If the Indians had a closer as good as Wood under control than they wouldn’t have needed utilize the free agent market to improve the position.
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno, can Kerry Wood turn double plays? Who is involved in more plays, Furcal or Wood? Can Wood hit? Steal a base? Etc.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are the one arguing that the Indians shouldn’t spend the money on a closer. Wood is not needed to play SS/2B. Obviously they think they can aquire the improvements at the infielder position through other avenues, whereas they would not have been able to acquire the improvement at closer.
This is also a very specific situation the Indians have. They can acquire a 2B,SS,3B to fill that need and shift current players accordingly, this allows for greater flexibility in finding the value deal to solve this problem. But that is a completely separate problem than improving the bullpen.
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But that is a completely separate problem than improving the bullpen.
But it is not a completely separate problem than gaining wins.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
who said its an either/or answer though?
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t the Indians improve at both positions (infielder and closer) utilizing their assets however they deem best?
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, of course. How is that pertinent?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well because if they choose to pay the going rate for a reliever (even if this is deemed a poor allocation of the funds in a pure “gaining wins” sense) it doesn’t deter them from improving at the infielder position through either FA or trade. And simply put they may have evaluated the market for these two positions and determined that the greater improvement possible for the reliever was through Free Agency , while the greater improvement for the infielder is through trade
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Market price is the be all and all of ultimate worth. The Hope Diamond, should it sell for $1, is “worth” $1. Market sets worth.
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is highly idealized and oversimplified. Monetary value is a proxy (directly or indirectly) for “real” value in tangible things, and the relationship between money and things obtained by money need not be a constant function for everyone. Each potential buyer can assign a value to something that may be higher or lower than market value, and can decide whether or not to purchase it based on whether it is worth the price. It’s often possible to make an exchange with a win-win outcome, which wouldn’t be possible if market price were the be all and end all of worth.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 14, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s oversimplified, I’ll agree. But your conception of worth is just that, a conception. The only worth a good, commodity, or player holds is that assigned to him by the market price.
The highly idealized scenario is the one you present. A personalized concept of worth is really only a single person’s perception of worth. Actual worth is only what the market assigns it.
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 9:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But the point in the present context is that a commodity doesn’t have one single value for “worth” that is constant across all potential buyers, especially in a small marketplace where buying and selling only take place at specified times (when buying and selling can take place any time, values tend to even out because the value to you is affected by the value to others — i.e. what you can get by selling it). It’s possible for two parties to buy something for the exact same amount of money, but for one to be overpaying and the other underpaying.
In this case, I think Wood’s contract is actually a better deal for us than it would be for a lot of other teams (see the discussion somewhere about the increased value of marginal wins to a team riding the cusp of contention), so I’m not actually trying to defend Kyle’s specific point. I just think we shouldn’t oversimplify things to the point of saying that market price is all there is to worth.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 14, 2008 11:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again…saying the Indians are allocating their resources incorrectly is a different argument than saying Wood is overpriced. Regarding the former argument, maybe it is the case that the price value of top-tier relievers is actually being misrepresented in standard contract analyses. Perhaps there is some sort of added value in having a top-tier reliever that isn’t captured in the performance metric for that individual. You often hear people in baseball talk about the value of having a shutdown closer they can go to, and simply because the benefits of such a guy haven’t been identified by statistical analyses doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
adding…i don’t think it’s a ridiculous idea that the value of top-tier relievers is actually greater than it appears to be. I think statistically it would be a very difficult thing to identify because of inherently small sample sizes, the necessity of incorporating qualitative inferences, and the broader volatility in the underlying population of reliever performance. that doesn’t mean it isn’t potentially real, though, and possibly an area where the conventional wisdom of old-school baseball people is correct.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
None of the studies done on this have even come close to justifying the cost. You are arguing from a position of ignorance.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think I’m entirely ignorant on this issue…I’m don’t read all of this stuff, but I’m reasonably informed on the work that’s been done on this issue. I’m arguing that this is a question where there is a real problem of encountering type II errors (with the idea that the null hypothesis is that all relievers can be valued on the same scale).
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I didn’t mean that you are ignorant. I meant that you are arguing from a position of ignorance; that we have no idea how to properly value relievers. But we do! We have done a lot of studies on the topic and none come close to justifying Wood’s deal or the value of closers in general.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but our conclusions are always based on the assumptions of the approach we have taken. standard analyses have assumed we can value performance equally for relievers (in part because of analyses which have failed to show different values). i’m suggesting it is possible this assumption of wrong and our failure to reject it represents the complexity of the question.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 1:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, they don’t value performance equally. They use Leverage Index to differentiate between the two and also have tested for systemic changes in the bullpen.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are still missing my point. i know about leverage index and i know how it can be used to assess individual performance. but you are still assuming a player’s value is entirely represented by his personal performance. my point is that may not be correct, but definitively showing that in the case of relievers especially may be a problem where statistical inference will fall short because of the inherent properties of the elements involved
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
FWIW
This is David’s post on my site – he is a writer for Fangraphs as well:
Kyle,
I consider the Cleveland Indians to be among the most well-run franchises in the game, but it’s pretty difficult to justify the terms of this signing.
For the most part, I have seen two ways of evaluating reliever performance, relative to Wins Above Replacement (WAR) and Leverage:
One uses a 4.50 FIP baseline for replacement level relievers, and employs a 1.5 Leverage Index (LI accounts for the leverage of the situation; this serves to give more weight to a high-leverage reliever)
Using these guidelines…
RL Reliever: 4.50 FIP/9 = .5 X 61 = 30.5 runs allowed
Wood: 3.58 FIP/9 = .3977 X 61 = 24.3 runs
30.5- 24.3 = 6.2 runs (1.5 LI) = 9.3 runs above replacement, or .93 WAR
.93 WAR ($5 mil) = $4.65M/ year
Personally, I’m starting to think that a 4.50 FIP is too low for a replacement level reliever. Other people use a 4.75 FIP, while also using a 1.8 LI (the average LI for a closer). Using these parameters…
RL Reliever: 4.75 FIP/9 = .5277 X 61 = 32.2 runs allowed
Wood: 24.3 runs allowed
32.2- 24.3 = 7.9 runs (1.8 LI) = 14.22 runs above replacement, or 1.4 WAR
1.4 WAR ($5 mil) = $7M/ year
So, if Wood takes the ball a projected 122 innings over the next two seasons, he projects to be worth about $14 million. And that’s without taking into account his lengthy injury history.
I’m sort of confused as to why the Indians would choose to spend that much on one reliever. While last year’s pen was a disaster, they had a productive, low cost bullpen as recently as 2007. Opportunity cost always needs to be taken into consideration- I get the feeling that Wood’s 20+ million could have been funneled back into the organization in a more productive manner.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The RL reliever is something of a will-o-the-wisp. Who is a replacement level reliever? Ambiorix Burgis? Joe Nelson? Jorge Julio? The variations inherent in such a reliever make this designation nearly meaningless. The difference between a real-life reliever of middling talents and a statistical conceit is significant. What you get with a reliever such as Wood is less volatility. This isn’t considered in your RL calculations: a real-life replacement-level reliever—not the cardboard construct that averages the performances of a mean bullpen pitcher—is a rare bird and extremely difficult to identify. If you could assure Mark Shapiro that by signing Kyle Farnsworth he will get 32 runs allowed, he would no doubt sign KF. But KF, of course, may be far worse than replacement level. The higher up the talent pole, the less risk of such underperformance.
by odradek on Dec 14, 2008 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The counter-argument would be that there’s so much variance in relief performances that the risk is not actually that much less, higher up on the talent pool.
I am firmly in the camp that says, there are actually only maybe 20 relievers, maybe fewer than that, that are really great pitchers and will be good fairly consistently over several years. I am also firmly in the camp that says, there is an excellent chance that Kerry Wood is one of those guys, and even though we have only one year of relief stats from him, there’s plenty of other evidence to support that conclusion.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 8:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore, 13 more innings of those stats dwarfs the higher k rates by a mile.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Furcal is supposedly going to get somewhere around 4/40 Million, and has multiple suitors. Furcal has had the much healthier career as you point out, but suffered his injury problems recently. Furcal had back problems last year that spread down to pain in his legs. They weren’t leg injuries.
B.J. Ryan got a 5/47 Million dollar contract, I’m not sure how he entered this conversation.
I agree with you that Wood is an injury risk, but two things make me feel a little better about the deal. First, since moving to the pen in August of ‘07, he’s “only” missed a month due to blister problems. Second, the brevity of the deal.
by ClarkM on Dec 14, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
B.J. Ryan got a 5/47 Million dollar contract, I’m not sure how he entered this conversation.
Because Riccardi was told to spend money in the offseason, so he ended up buying him because he was simply available for purchase.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, to some extent, Ricciardi’s decision was valid — at some point, you’re either spending the money on something, or on nothing. There two questions that follow:
1. Where is the greatest value among players you can convince to come to the Indians? You still haven’t mentioned a better idea.
2. Does the required investment and risk significantly hamstring the club from making more cost-effective moves in the future? In this respect, the Ryan and Wood deals are miles apart.
Just to be clear, I was advocating for this before it was ever reported, so I’m not rationalizing it. I am not aware of a better use of our resources on the FA market, and nobody has suggested one that’s even close.
The salary is inflated beyond a straight wins-per-dollar valuation, that is true. But it’s the market that pushes it in that direction, and there’s still no better expenditure to be made. The Indians also see ancillary value to the deal that is not directly to Wood’s credit, i..e, the deepening of relief resources overall.
Neither you nor David gives any thought to the fact that this is a five-year deal. Contracts cannot be evaluated based on marginal wins per AAV alone — that is child’s play. The list of relievers who have commanded three-year deals is dozens long, but this deal tears 80% of the risk out of the third year. That is worth real money — more than $4 million. Regardless of Wood’s history, you can’t even compare the risk factor of this deal with a guaranteed, five-year contract for essentially the same AAV.
Does David really not see this? Or do you guys simply have a hard time translating that reduced risk factor a salary adjustment for the imminent season?
Real, adult decision making requires a full understanding of markets, risk and reward, and it’s not just basic arithmetic. Even more than that, it requires an understanding of the cost of not making the move, something you haven’t even begun to address. How much have the Indians reduced the risk of not having a dominant closer? How much have they reduced the risk of not having a competent closer? How much have they reduced the risk of not having two or even three competent and/or dominant setup men?
When you’ve figured out those risk factors and come up with dollar valuations, then we’ll have a realistic framework for making this decision.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1. Where is the greatest value among players you can convince to come to the Indians? You still haven’t mentioned a better idea.
Really? This is pretty lazy of you. I already named Dunn and Furcal.
As for your other points, no one is comparing this deal directly to B.J. Ryan. I just said that because if you are forced to spend money on whatever, you end up spending it on ridiculous things like, well, B.J. Ryan. It had nothing to do with a contract comparison.
Saving the money to spend it the next year would have been the wise decision, but Blue Jays’ ownership didn’t want to do that. So, they got an albatross for a reliever.
Lastly, your condescending tone is patently absurd. Fangraphs et. al. have already gone over the numbers and to call it “simple arithmetic” is just ridiculous. You think WPA and WAR is simple addition and subtraction?
You are also putting the burden of proof on me when you are assuming a lot – like the value of a “competent closer.” What exactly is that worth? Well, we can figure it out by using Leverage Index and WAR and other tools, which – surprise! – we already did.
How about you post some real numbers about what the value of “competent setup men” is?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt you are still here, but I’d like to explain why I don’t think Furcal and Dunn are likely to be good signs.
Let’s first assume that both Dunn and Furcal are going to sign for something like 4/40 Million. I think this is reasonable, and even if these guys don’t sign for that much, it might be what we would have to pay. In both cases, these guys would be switching leagues, coming to a team without any established contacts in the front office, not their home towns, not a desirable market, etc. I think you get my point, we’d probably have to offer top dollar, and maybe a bit extra to get them to come to Cleveland.
Furcal-A four year deal would cover his Ages 31-34 seasons. He has had back surgery, which by all accounts is a pretty serious procedure, so his aging gracefully is lessened somewhat. Furcal’s value in the past has been heavily dependent on his speed, e.g. his range at short, base running, singles. Generally, speed does not age well. Marcels, which doesn’t factor his back injury in, projects him for a .337 wOBA. That’s pretty good for a shortstop, but over the four year deal, that’s likely to be his best season. Added to that, let’s say he’s a tick above average at short, which I think is generous. I don’t have the technical know-how to tell you whether that’s worth 10 million a year, but my gut would say that it is, but probably not much over that. In year 2, 3, and 4, I’m less certain he’s going to be worth that.
Dunn-a four year deal would cover his ages 29-32 seasons. Like Furcal, he has distinct qualities that don’t age well, old-player skills. Marcels projects him for a .372 wOBA. That’s great, but Dunn is a defensive liability. I have no interest in seeing him play left field. According to Plus/Minus, he has been -58 over the past three years. It’s true that last year was his best year defensively of those three, but he also played his fewest games there as well, so I doubt that it’s a sign of things to come. Is this worth 10 million? Again, I think he probably is worth 10 million in the first year of the contract, but not much more, and in the next three, I think it becomes increasingly less likely. This is to say nothing of our in-house options, who as unglamorous as they may seem, are likely to be better than replacement level, something I can’t say for our 2b, ss, or 3b, depending on who plays where, or our 7th reliever.
by ClarkM on Dec 14, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-new-cleveland-closer/
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/izturis-signs-wood-update/
Even they dislike it – assuming that Kerry Wood stays healthy, which is not a given.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 3:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The alternative is for us to continue signing guys like Dellucci, Nixon, Oldberto, Fultz, Borowski for more money than we gave Wood. I think instead of signing 3 sub-mediocre players, it makes sense to sign a guy that is going to be very valuable for the team
by Roger Dorn on Dec 14, 2008 1:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then why not spend a bit more and sign Rafael Furcal? Or Ben Sheets?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 3:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Because $10 million probably represents about how much the Indians are able to spend. Sheets will cost $14-$15 and Furcal isn’t really a pressing need. That’s why.
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Furcal isn’t a pressing need, given the holes in the middle infield we have?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Relative to our bullpen issues, no. And given the possibility of addressing the MI with much cheaper options, also no.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Huh? You think Barfield/Valbuena/Cabrera address the middle infield as well as Furcal does? That Dunn isn’t a huge upgrade over…well, whoever in the corners?
Relief pitching is fungible. This has been proven to be the case more than once. Throw in the overvaluations for relief pitching in this market (Farnsworth’s contract, Wood’s contract, Rivera’s, etc) and the depressed market for the other players (Burrell, Dunn, Furcal) and I can’t see why spending top dollar on a reliever made much sense.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me explain more effectively: Relative to what we have to spend, Furcal is not a better option than a bullpen ace like Wood. I think we’d have to extend much more. We’re much better off finding a cheaper option at MI.
I am fully on the Adam Dunn bandwagon, but again, I’m not buying the idea that he signs for $20 million.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean the Rafael Furcal with a career OPS+ of 96? That guy? No, he doesn’t really address the situation. He is, at his very best, league average. Why spend more on an average MI than we did on one of the best pitchers in the game?
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Er, a league average shortstop with the bat (and one of the best defenders) is worth way more than $10m/year?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kyle, the fact that you think a four-year deal for Furcal would be less risky than a two-year deal for Wood … you are just flunking math here. Furcal is not half as risky, and the contract would be double the risk.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Flunking math?
What are you talking about? How is a four-year deal for a position player who has exactly one year of injuries more than twice as risky for a reliever who hasn’t thrown a full year in the last four besides 2008? Show your work.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No. He’s not. Furcal made over $15 million that year. He’s league average with the bat and a bit above league average with the glove. Assuming he is not the rare player who wants to take a pay cut, he’s not worth signing. He’s 30 years old, coming off major injury and not better than any 2B/SS we currently have. Is there any way that getting him is better than getting Wood?
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 6:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As I stated above, I’m not that high on Furcal, but he’s pretty clearly an upgrade over Carroll/Barfield/Marte. That’s who he’d be replacing with Jhonny moving to third.
by ClarkM on Dec 14, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Furcal has a shot at being better than Jhonny or Asdrubal in any given year. I agree that it’s far from certain that he will be, but the real point is that we need a third skilled infielder.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I echo Jay’s sentiment, what else are we going to spend that money on? And by your point, we wouldn’t be able to sign any free agent because compared to the cost of pre-FA players they are being overpaid for their return, this is simply faulty logic due to the ignorance of structure of the system within which a ML baseball team operates (as Jay points out, there are three salary classifications).
Money like prospects (or simply players) is a tradable asset. But they are two distinct forms of asset. Money can be spent on extending contracts of players already under control or can be spent on free agent players. I don’t see a need to extend current contracts or buy out any current years, so its available for free agents, explain to me how we should spend the money better. The real losers in the FA market are the teams that do not pay for for the top talent or do not take the chance on the low cost/high risk/high reward players. Allocating the free agent money towards league avg. talent is a poor use of those funds. Wood represents the epitome of a dominant closer and top talent available. If you want to argue injury risk than that is fine, but to lump Wood in as “a reliever” as if all relievers are the same, is incorrect.
Often its not the money, but the years that make the kind of contracts that debilitate teams’ roster flexibility. Going back to the % of payroll argument is simply missing the point. We’re talking about volatility with all of these players, flexibility and minimal commitment is key to managing the volatility and maintaining a successful team. Its the years not the money.
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 2:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kerry Wood has one year in the past four where he was healthy and productive. Like I said to Jay, I want you to name this reliever:
79.1 IP, 9 BB, 80 K, 4 HR. 1.47 ERA 0.756 WHIP
And then tell me what happened to him in the year afterwards.
Hint: He was a Cleveland Indian.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 3:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but it was the only year in which he was used exclusively as a reliever from start to finish. Maybe it was a coincidence, but maybe it wasn’t.
by TribeJay on Dec 14, 2008 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re going to name an extreme outlier (in both seasons) as your test case?
Really?
Here’s why Wood doesn’t have the performance risk profile of a typical reliever, and this is a big part of why I advocated for his signing: He is not a typical reliever. The typical reliever is not a good enough pitcher to be a successful starter, but Wood was not only good enough to be successful, he was good enough to contend for All-Star spots and even Cy Young awards perennially. (Is there some part of “second-highest career K rate in history” that you don’t understand?)
Reliever performance is highly variable based mostly on how small the sample size is and how great the play-by-play variance is in baseball — we know this for a fact. (I think there are also other reasons, like the difficulty of making mid-season adjustments, but that’s neither here nor there.) How does this affect the judgments we make about relievers?
Well, there obviously are two ways: (1) We overrate — we misjudge mediocre or poor relievers, mistaking a a great or decent season for skill rather than luck. (2) We underrate — we misjudge great or mediocre relievers for decent or poor ones, again, based on a single season. I would argue that we do a lot more overrating than underrating when it comes to relievers, because, again, nearly all of them are failed starters to begin with, so how likely is it that one of them is genuinely great?
And now we come to Kerry Wood. We know we’re not overrating his one season, because it isn’t that far off the performance one would expect based on his career as a starter. Fairly unique among relievers, we have well over 1000 innings of data on this guy — we know what kind of pitcher he is, he’s a killer. As a pure talent, he is not remotely comparable to Betancourt, who prior to 2007 was merely a very good reliever for a few years.
We also look to his secondary stats as the most stable indicator we can get, and those numbers are flat-out terrific. Again, what part of 11.4 K/9 do you not understand?
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, he’s great! No one is disputing that. However, it is ridiculously intellectually dishonest to say this:
Again, what part of 11.4 K/9 do you not understand?
And ignore, well, the past four years. What part about THAT do you not understand?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You highlight the past 4 years for Wood though when he has only been a reliever for 2 years which has helped him with his injury problems. I do believe that moving him to the bullpen has reduced injury risk
by Roger Dorn on Dec 14, 2008 4:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think Kyle is still around, but this is a fair question that I didn’t address before.
Wood’s K rate last season is consistent with his career numbers, if you consider that his career numbers are 90% based on his being a starter. We know that pitchers in general are somewhat more effective as relievers than as starters — this is the very reason relievers are almost all failed starters. It is not surprising in the least for a starter who can reach 10.3 K/9 would switch to a relief role and reach 11.4.
Having said that, if he fell back to his career number, who would complain?
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
…we know what kind of pitcher he is, he’s a killer. As a pure talent, he is not remotely comparable to Betancourt, who prior to 2007 was merely a very good reliever for a few years.
No, Jay. He’s a Killing Machine. Totally different.
by afh4 on Dec 14, 2008 5:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He was pitching through an injury. It was reported in June (I believe, and in any case I can get the link for you if you really want me to find it) that he was experiencing back problems, had to compensate, and as a result struggled with his location (his primary skill). I don’t see how a single player should influence this argument.
by hans on Dec 14, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I for one can say I love this deal. Even though the health risk is very palpable, I like Shapior rolling the dice on this one.
I have always liked Wood, from his early minor league days (I drooled over him as a prsopect). In fact I think I drafted him every year until he finally qualified.
Was a shame he never stayed healthy enough to bevome the new Rocket.
Also, a bigger shame, we’ll never see Wood finish a game with the ’Stache.
by talonk on Dec 14, 2008 1:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Since it looks like I'm the only one that dislikes the deal...
I’ll be exiting the discussion on LGT. I made on post on my SB Nation site if anyone cares to take it over there.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 4:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I just checked out his site and it looks quite interesting. But guess who recently posted a FanPost there? Our old buddy E5.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 8:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You won’t continue a debate or a discussion if you don’t have backup? That’s pretty weak sauce.
It would also help if you addressed the points of the people with whom you disagree instead of repeating the same things over and over.
You cherry-picked Betancourt to show how variable relief performance can be. Are you interested in knowing how rare it is to see such an extreme swing in performance? Probably not. By your logic it would be folly to sign any talented reliever based on the fear that they might pull a Betancourt. Right?
And you haven’t even touched APV’s point regarding what differentiates Wood.
I admire someone for sticking to their POV when most of the herd is heading in another direction, but only if they make intellectually honest arguments.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have responded to his arguments. I’m simply not interested in LGT fans piling on me without making actual arguments.
And yes, the higher you go up the quality scale of relievers, the less variance there is. I admitted as much. The problem is – how can we prove that Kerry Wood really is that talented? His luck on HR/FB is no joke, even though his DIPS numbers are great.
I will simply ask you to respond to the posts that Fangraphs and others have made. How can you justify betting on someone moving to the more difficult league, with such a long history of injuries, and requiring an increase in performance to earn his salary?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you think Kerry Wood would not earn his salary if he simply equals last year’s performance, you don’t understand value.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then neither do the people at Fangraphs, I guess. Care to respond?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure. We don’t operate in a world in which you can acquire an impact player for a price that perfectly matches value. We accept that there are occasions in which the acquisition of an impact player requires a contract that is more expensive than we’d like to pay based on likely performance.
Were we to only offer contracts that match likely value we’d remove ourselves from the discussion on many players. Does that mean we’re willing and even eager to consistently overpay? Of course not.
It means that a savvy organization can recognize a deal in which it’s actually logical to make an offer that is probably more than a player is worth. The key is to only make such moves when they would not cripple a team’s finances and inhibit the team from making other moves if the acquired player fails.
In other words, if Kerry Wood’s true market value is somewhere less than $10 million, it’s certainly not much less than $10 million, as APV illustrated. And we’d rather happily “overpay” by $2 million to acquire a top-tier relief pitcher because we’re smart enough to fill out a roster with excellent value. Under Shapiro the Indians have consistently fielded a team bursting with value at many positions; we operate with contracts favorable to age, career performance, and projected performance. And when you operate that way, you can extend a strong offer to a pitcher like Kerry Wood with the peace of mind that if he flops, you can still compete.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just adding to Tabler…one of the problems I continually come up against in contract analyses is that performance, by whatever metric you use to measure it, is not a continuously distributed variable. It instead comes compartmented into packages in the form of individual players. These players themselves then enter the market at different times, creating a distribution of packaged performance. I do think this can have the effect of increasing the relative cost of players at the high end of the performance scale, although this is an effect that will show a lot of variability depending on the off-season, the players available, and the teams involved in signings.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 12:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well said. In the end, every contract is a risk. Some obviously carry higher risk than others, and Shapiro and his staff are obviously evaluating with those risks in mind. You’d love to be able to marginalize risk in every contract, but sometimes you have to assume more of it to address positions of need.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Risk
Sure, I understand that. However, if Kerry Wood’s risk-adjusted upside meant we’d have a surplus on our hands (i.e. he’d be worth $15m), that would be one thing. However, his upside means that his salary is competitive while his downside is total ruin.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a fair enough point. And very few teams can operate with a glut of players who need to perform to their peak simply to make their salary competitive. No such contract is optimal, but again, we’re an organization that minimizes those kinds of deals. I think you and I have to agree to disagree on how problematic even a single contract of this type can be. I find it well within the bounds of acceptable risk compared to likely value.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 12:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This is not the viewpoint of an actual asset manager.
There is no “total ruin.” The money is spent, now. Did we spend it well? That’s one question, but it’s a question you answer now, not later.
Later, if he’s healthy and performs well, that’s one result, and if he’s injured, that’s another, with a lot of gradations in between. The relevant questions for now are:
1. What is the optimal result worth to us?
2. How much did we improve our chance of achieving that result?
3. How much did we improve our chances of getting other incrementally positive results?
4. How much are each of those incremental improvements worth to us?
5. What is the downside risk in terms of not acquiring this player?
6. What is the opportunity cost in terms of other ways we could use the money?
Rosters are a little too fluid and dynamic to evalute a move with simple arithmetic. I think one reason you like a move like Furcal is because it’s harder for you to understand the downstream ripple effect on the roster of a Wood signing, which is far greater than a Furcal signing.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did we spend it well? That’s one question, but it’s a question you answer now, not later.
Yes, I know. I am factoring that in for the decision to sign him now, not to be results-oriented. Where did you get this idea?
All of those questions can be answered by doing a value-based comparison of Kerry Wood (or similar relievers) and position players that we desire, like Furcal or Dunn and what they are likely to sign for, and it is work worth doing. What I’m saying is that you put a lot of onus on me to do the work and presuppose that your position is correct, which is a bit ridiculous since I haven’t seen any work from you.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I know. I am factoring that in for the decision to sign him now, not to be results-oriented. Where did you get this idea?
You talked about maybe it’s okay and maybe it’s ruin. My point is, it is what it is as a transaction, right now, and later on is almost beside the point. I don’t think we disagree on this. I agree that any good contract ought to offer the signing club some chance of “winning” the deal, but the market is heavily weighted against teams in this regard, and as a result, there are hardly any “good contracts” by that definition.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. Kyle is pushing for a kind of Utopian approach to free agents, which is likely to result in close to zero “winnable” contracts — and close to zero actual free agent acquisitions.
Kyle, can you explain why you seem to be arguing from a POV that assumes we can get Dunn, Furcal, or others? Do you think the Indians have considered their price, availability, risk, team needs, etc? I’m not suggesting we blindly follow the front office and assume all of their decisions are wise, but you’re assuming we have our choice of big-name free agents. And we pretty clearly don’t.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s funny, I’m usually on the other side of this argument. Someone ends up complaining to me, “You can’t just say that there are no good free agent contracts,” and I say, “I know, it’s ridiculous, but the problem is that there are, in fact, almost no good free agent contracts.”
It is precisely because there are almost no good ones that this one is a good one. If this isn’t a good one, then aside from hindsight, there are no good ones.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, your idea of comparing Wood to other desirable players is illustrating the cost of acquisition concept. You cannot simply assume that those other players are available to us, just because they are free agents.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that because we manage our money well in every other area that overpaying occasionally makes sense, especially when the wins added could yield a playoff spot. That argument will get no rebuttal from me. However, spending it on a reliever doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me when there are middle infield prospects (Furcal), outfielders (Burrell, Dunn), and starters (Sheets) who are likely to add more value and many of which are seeing their market value plummet.
Relievers are consistently overpaid, especially the ones who have the “closer” tag on them.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I promise you that “Shapiro” is not drunk on a closer tag. Certainly some “baseball men” are.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whether or not he is drunk on a closer tag is irrelevant. He still spent the money on a closer, and as APV pointed out above, they’re all overpaid.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
they’re all overpaid
…or we aren’t valuing them correctly
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can’t this be determined using Leverage Index?
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you’re missing my point. obviously leverage is a factor, but it is a factor in assessing the value of that individual performance. my alternative suggestion is that perhaps top-tier relievers provide some added value that goes beyond their individual contribution as a result of their effect on the performance (perhaps situation or systematic) of other members of the team.
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And I think you’re missing my ponit – we can test for this, and many people have. None have ascertained that what you’re saying is a real effect.
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by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotta go with Kyle on this one. If it’s an effect we can’t see, can’t measure, can’t even tell if it exists other than guessing, it doesn’t exist.
by Voltaire on Dec 14, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
two words I’ve never seen in an article on this subject – power analysis
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 2:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
good call.
(I am not sufficiently educated in contract evaluation to take sides in the broader discussion at the moment — but I do think that a power analysis should be performed before we jump to the conclusion that an effect isn’t there.)
by Logodaedalus on Dec 14, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or we don’t have the tools required to assess it?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 14, 2008 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which might be reason to look for more evidence – but until we find some, it’s irrational to assume its existence.
by Voltaire on Dec 14, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i disagree, but i don’t think its because i disagree with what you’re saying. i don’t think anyone is assuming its existence – instead, we may be hypothesizing its existence, and from there looking to conduct fieldwork on that hypothesis.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 14, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s irrational to assume either way, but sometimes a working assumption is necessary in order to construct a model. You can circle back and test later.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed on the second part. On the first part, given no evidence, you’ve gotta take the null hypothesis.
by Voltaire on Dec 14, 2008 7:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What does “no evidence” mean? Can we not have direct observation, anecdotal evidence, circumstantial evidence, intelligent supposition?
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, you certainly can. But I know of no evidence for the specific theory put forth.
by Voltaire on Dec 16, 2008 11:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There’s certainly anecdotal evidence… Betancourt, for example. Not saying that’s good enough, but it is anecdotal evidence.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 17, 2008 2:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just out of curiosity, what evidence is there that the market values of the people you mention are “plummeting?” Given the contracts Sabathia and Burnett just signed, Sheets can certainly think seriously about a very nice paycheck (although, he, too, has injury issues that may wind up depressing his value). Burrell’s and Dunn’s values remain uncertain — there’s been a huge argument on this site about exactly that point. But given Ibanez’ deal, it is quite possible that one or both of them will get a nice payday. It’s certainly not the case that we KNOW that their value is plummeting.
What we do know is a. the Indians’ season last year came undone in large part because of the bullpen; b. there are multiple established closers available, and relatively few big market teams seeking them; c. the Cubs let Wood go, in part, because they thought he would get a deal with multiple years in it (I’ve read that 4 was the number they were figuring); d. Wood was available for a price less than what was initially anticipated.
There’s obviously risk associated with signing a player with Wood’s history, but the options are not obviously better. Could we get Dunn, Sheets or Burrell for $10 million a year over 2 years (with an option of some sort?). And, if we could, would that address our most urgent need? I’ll concede that we might answer yes on Sheets, but he, too, is an injury risk, and there are other teams looking for starters, so his price may go higher than it should (in value terms).
What Shapiro has done, to my eyes anyway, is address an obvious problem with the team, staying within his budget and getting a player who, while perhaps overpriced because of the position he plays, is actually cheaper than he would have been because there is little competition for him. If Wood solidifies the bullpen as expected, we’ll all be saying what a good move this was. I hope you’re wrong about his effect on the team.
by peter m on Dec 14, 2008 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To add to this, so far this off-season, we’ve seen:
Kyle Lohse 4/41
Ibanez 3/30
CC 7/161
Burnett 5/82.5
K-Rod 3/37
Am I missing anybody else? I am not sure that this market value is plummeting is based on any evidence, but merely rumors of what some guys are asking for, and what teams are willing to pay.
by ClarkM on Dec 14, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Given the contracts Sabathia and Burnett just signed…
These are obviously outliers since they signed with the Yankees. Sheets will not command this type of deal.
The Ibanez deal is getting panned throughout baseball, and for good reason. There is a glut of corner outfielders that range from acceptable (Hermida, Gomes, etc) to “big FA” (Dunn, Abreu, Burrell) and demand is low, so prices should drop on them.
Those players would cost more than an AAV of $10m but they would represent a more efficient allocation of resources, IMO.
And I hope I’m wrong too.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You dismiss these contracts as outliers and “panned”, but they are the reality of the FA market. It only takes 1 team to overpay a FA. There is almost always a team willing overpay any desirable player we would pursue.
I don’t see how you can assume that we will be able to sign Furcal, Dunn or anyone else to a satisfactory deal, given how most of the contracts that have actually been signed you consider to be terrible or ignorable.
by KevinV on Dec 14, 2008 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure the Yankees are outliers. But, the pool of starting pitchers has now been reduced by 2 — arguably the best 2. After Derek Lowe, Sheets becomes one of the most attractive free agent pitchers remaining in a market where there are numerous teams interested in finding good starting pitching. Will Sheets get a deal like Burnett? No. Will he get a deal worth $10 million a year for 2 years — I wouldn’t bet against that at this point. And, if he does, can the Indians sign him and is he a lower risk than Wood? Without arguing that $10 million for a closer is a no-brainer, I’m suggesting that the alternatives are far from as clear-cut as you think.
by peter m on Dec 14, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s the reality. The idea that the market will now dry up, with the two best pitchers gone and 29 teams not having signed either of them, is ridiculous. The Yankees aren’t even out of the bidding for the remaining guys, either.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sheets will not command this type of deal.
What if the Yankees sign him?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 15, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think the Wood signing drops the Tribe out of any bidding markets they weren’t already on the outside looking in at.
They weren’t getting in on Manny, Texeira, Burnett, etc and I think they’re still in the hunt for the Dunns & Burrells in the market with the Wood signing.
If Wood’s risky arm bites us, then it’s probably only a 2 year deal. I can live with that.
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
by bigbrabbs on Dec 14, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If Wood’s risky arm bites us, then it’s probably only a 2 year deal. I can live with that.
I can too, but not if it meant we signed him over Adam Dunn.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One factor in the value of a signing like Dunn or Burrell is the projections or potential upside from Francisco or Choo.
Would a Dunn/Burrell signing be good value if they cost $10 mil/year and only OPS 50-75 points higher than the above average replacements on the bench?
I see your argument and the larger market inefficiency with relievers. But in December its hard for me not to get excited about this signing. (pats self on back for not making Wood-boner pun)
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
by bigbrabbs on Dec 14, 2008 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The same could be said for Wood vs. the corps of relievers we have now. I am willing to bet that Dunn significantly would outproduce our legions of 4th outfielders in a more meaningful way than our current bullpen does over Kerry Wood.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Word.
Although if Wood knocks Sheffield’s helmet off with a fastball at any time in 09 or 10, his value immediately triples.
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
by bigbrabbs on Dec 14, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This makes Fausto the best bargain in baseball.
by SuddenSam on Dec 14, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That, and that his contract includes three club option years (2012, 2013, 2014)
by APV on Dec 14, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which is something into which neither you, nor I, nor anybody on LGT has any insight. Nor, likely, ever will.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 14, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also, bringing down the average cost of a good reliever is a guy like Soria being great at a cost of $426,000… no?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 15, 2008 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What you’re missing here (among other things) is a concept called “cost of acquisition.”
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you want to elaborate, or just be a jackass?
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, before I ban you, I’ll explain.
This is just what tabler and APV were implying. You can’t just purchase these assets on a large, efficient open market. Star players are not like replacement players; they generally are not available at all, so every team has a substantial risk of not acquiring a quality player for any position of need. The cost of acquisition recognizes that the market is imperfect, and that simply having a quality player under contract to fill a key role has an intrinsic value, because your risk of not having an adequate player in that role goes from 90% to zero.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what I figured – you haven’t done any legwork of your own and all you’ve done is look like a genius and call me an idiot to the adoring fans of LGT.
Congratulations. You sure are awesome.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Dec 14, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, I’m just laying out some basic concepts while my pregnant wife waits for me to take her to lunch. I don’t have all the time in the world! More later …
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jay is soooooo adorable.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know he’s, like, so hott when he’s angry.
by fwembt on Dec 14, 2008 6:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You know, you should really follow this site before you talk. People argue with Jay ALL THE TIME. This site is not a cult or a collection of acolytes. It’s a collection of people who like to argue and talk about baseball and who follow the game pretty closely. We may not be right, but we’re all big boys and girls and can think for ourselves. We appear to disagree with you, but not because Jay told us to.
by peter m on Dec 14, 2008 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Psst, Peter: When people get all ad hominem it’s generally because they don’t have much more intellectual or fact-based ammunition.
by tabler84 on Dec 14, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In this case, the dude just took everything way too personally.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 14, 2008 5:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I kind of agreed with a few points, but he certainly didn’t argue them effectively.
by Voltaire on Dec 14, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I know. But, agreeing with Jay makes me all antsy.
by peter m on Dec 14, 2008 5:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt that.
I think I’m due for a new avatar. Should I go with the pandering thing, like maybe Toby Keith, or something more about demanding abject worship and obedience, e.g., General Zod?
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pull a me. Pittsburgh Steelers.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 14, 2008 7:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely not. You should be flagged for that.
How are you an Indians and Steelers fan? My buddy is a diehard fan of both teams and I cannot understand that. You’re either a Cleveland fan or a Pittsburgh fan, you can’t be both. Are you from Y-town?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 8:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There was a small and loathsome breed of Steelers frontrunners running through NE Ohio in the early 80s. I remember some kind of weird school “Browns vs. Steelers” rally when I was in 4th grade maybe — the 1980 season? — when they had all the kids go to one side of the room or the other, Browns or Steelers, to show for whom they were rooting. It is probably my first memory of frontrunners, and all I could think was, “What is wrong with those people?”
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There are ungodly many front-running Steelers fans here in Columbus. They are so damn annoying. I can understand Bengals fans here but not Steelers fans. There is nothing more I hate than front-runners.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 9:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s still here. I can understand people who gravitate towards the Pittsburgh teams because the two cities are so close, but I don’t get liking both the Indians and the Steelers. That’s the pinnacle of front-running, or as I like to call them, a la carte fans.
by Ryan on Dec 14, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it’s weird – I was born in Youngstown and picked up the Steelers there. Moved to Cleveland (when I was about 7) and picked up the Indians there. My family moved again, to Florida, right before high school and I go to college (will be ‘went to’ in 5 days) just outside of Boston so I actually don’t really know many Steelers or Indians fans. I think the contradiction of being a die-hard Steelers and Indians fan is something I never really became sensitive to.
by jakesinger777 on Dec 14, 2008 9:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really follow any sports other than baseball, but I think if I were to suddenly start I might be a Philadelphia fan for the others… I was imprinted with the Tribe at a young age, but I lived the large majority of my life in eastern PA, so in matters other than baseball I identify more with that region than with Cleveland. That wouldn’t be front-running…
Of course, the strength of this point may be undermined somewhat by its hypothetical…ity…
by Logodaedalus on Dec 14, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
“to show for whom they were rooting”
Really? You’re willing to go that far to avoid ending a sentence in a preposition? Not as bad as “up with which we shall not put”, but sounds pretty stilted, dontcha think?
by Logodaedalus on Dec 14, 2008 11:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I thought about it and decided to go with grammar this time.
Not that I don’t appreciate some style feedback, but aren’t you about three weeks removed from an all-out Dungeons & Dragons discussion?
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 11:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a myth, anyway.
http://grammartips.homestead.com/prepositions1.html
http://grammar.about.com/b/2008/03/26/prepositions-ending-sentences-with.htm
by SuddenSam on Dec 15, 2008 7:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest, I feel perfectly free to break grammar rules whenever I want to, but I do so knowingly, and when I feel it’s justified by an material advantage in clarity or style.
This rule I treat more or less like split infinitives. I always make an attempt to work around it, and I often find that through that attempt, I end up with something that reads better and/or is simply more clear. Avoiding the sentence-ending preposition may not be a hard-and-fast rule, but if your prose is littered with them, it’s probably not as well written as it could have been.
by Jay on Dec 15, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that sometimes it’s more clear to raise the preposition, or keep the infinitive together… often it sounds vewwy weiwd (and, as SuddenSam points out, both are “Procrustean” attempts to fit English to Latin).
I think part of the reason this particular case sounds so bad is that “root for” is more or less a single verb. It cries out in pain when you rend it, limb from limb.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 15, 2008 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course I hear it that way, too, but you find pretty quickly that that argument extrapolates out to way too many things for it to be considered as sound.
by Jay on Dec 15, 2008 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Which argument, the one about fitting English to Latin, or the one about verbs+prepositions being single units?
I am neither a hardcore prescriptivist nor a hardcore “screw prescriptive grammar” relativist. In principle I agree with you that clarity and flow are paramount, and that the decision between adhering to and breaking prescriptive grammar rules should be informed primarily by those concerns. I just think that in this case clarity and flow would have demanded “show who(m) they’re rooting for” — or at least avoiding the dilemma altogether and saying something like “to show their team allegiance”.
Anyway, it was a minor snark that has generated discussion disproportionate to its gravity (how’s that for gratuitously flowery?)
by Logodaedalus on Dec 15, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There was that discussion about various polyhedra…
My mom thinks I’m cool!
by Logodaedalus on Dec 15, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’d agree with your mom, but it seems cooler somehow to refer back to Lester Bangs’ monologue on the subject of cool.
by Jay on Dec 15, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you trying to say silence is more compelling than my commentary?
by Logodaedalus on Dec 15, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jay – I was at that same event, and even though I was only in 1st grade, I remember really being mad at the people in the Steelers jerseys. It’s too bad I hate the Ravens more now.
Even funnier was the fact that such an event ever occurred in a public school. Do they do Cavs vs. Celtics now?
by Fredward on Dec 15, 2008 6:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So I’m not crazy, right? That weird rally really did happen!
by Jay on Dec 15, 2008 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember a school-wide vote when I was in Kindergarten for the 1990 Super Bowl. There were 183 kids total in my school, and 180 of them voted for the Bills. I voted for the Giants, and that’s the source of my fandom to this day.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, you were in kindergarten for the 1990 Super Bowl? I would swear about how old I am, but Jay would delete it.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 16, 2008 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kindergarten in 1990?!?
Sweet Chocolate Jesus, I graduated from law school that year!
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 16, 2008 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i did kgarten in 91 i think
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 16, 2008 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I “graduated” Kindergarten in ’91, the Bills/Giants Super Bowl was played in ’91.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This marks the second time in a week that I’ve been reminded of how old I am getting. The first one came when a friend of my son’s started to explain the origins of the upcoming high school production of Tommy.
As he began to tell me it came from an album by The Who, I interrupted him to let him know I’d heard of the group, seen them in concert, and had a collection of bootleg recordings from the days of cassette and VHS tapes.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 16, 2008 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Who pre-dated the VHS format by at least a dozen years.
by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 12:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are correct sir. These are bootleg copies of concerts in Cleveland in 1972 and Chicago in 1976. I also have cassette bootlegs from 1969. None of these are the original media, but that’s the format that I have them in.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 17, 2008 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
In 1991, I was not old enough to attend kindergarten.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 16, 2008 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
might have been 92 tho
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 17, 2008 1:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nope not crazy – at least not for that reason. Keep in mind just a couple years later our music teacher freaked out and had us sing “You’ve Got a Friend” and “Cold as Ice” as part her “Lonely and Bitter X-Mas Concert.” Seriously, go back and look at the lyrics, and then tell me it’s OK to have a 10 year old sing “you’re digging for gold/you’re throwing away/a fortune in feelings/but someday you’ll pay.” After that, I was ready for a Broncos/Browns rally.
by Fredward on Dec 16, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
think you might have had her too?
by Logodaedalus on Dec 17, 2008 2:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fredward and I went to the same elementary school.
by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ms. Timbrell. How do I remember this crap?
by Fredward on Dec 17, 2008 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Had to delete a couple messages here for profanity.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
‘Go Steelers’ is not profanity!
by jakesinger777 on Dec 14, 2008 9:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How about Cap’n Picard — ‘make it so’!!
by peter m on Dec 14, 2008 8:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually demand a good argument, and if I couldn’t get one here, I’d leave.
Not kidding.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
has anyone seen my ball? all i can find is this one with “K.B.” on it.
by Brick. on Dec 14, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Congratulations to you guys.
I’m the proprietor of Bleed Cubbie Blue, the SBN Cubs site. I haven’t had a lot of “favorite players”, but Kerry Wood was a particular favorite of mine. He’s the first player I ever bought a replica jersey of. I was at his 20-K game — maybe the most dominant single game performance in baseball history.
He’s a class act who never made excuses for his failures or injuries. While he did miss time on the DL in 2008, it was NOT for elbow or shoulder problems. We Cubs fans debated quite a bit at BCB about why the Cubs wouldn’t keep him — we still can’t figure it out.
You’ll like his fastball and his bulldog attitude and his commitment to winning and to the community. We will all miss him.
We look forward to seeing him at Wrigley Field June 19-21… of course, sitting on the bench while the Cubs sweep the Tribe. Other than those three games, I’m a big Tribe fan in 2009.
Much good luck to Kerry Wood.
"That's my opinion and if you don't like it, well, I have others." ~ Groucho Marx
by Al on Dec 14, 2008 5:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the kind words. I have one question. Is he a hard worker?
by NickFantana on Dec 14, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hahaha
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 14, 2008 5:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m in Roscoe Village, a die hard Tribe fan (first off, I can’t believe with 10-11 odd years of Interleague play, Cleveland has come to Wrigley exactly once, and that was back in 1998). Some of my Cub fan in-laws are already talking purchasing Tribe gear.
I’ll certainly have a cavalry of Clevelanders over at my place for that weekend.
by cheech99 on Dec 14, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
KLaw likes the signing for the Indians because they aquired the best closer on the market at a discount to the going rate set by Rodriguez. First he writes about why the Indians’ need for a closer was so great:
Cleveland’s 2008 season turned sour for a number of reasons, and a bad bullpen was one of them. The Indians underperformed their runs scored and runs allowed totals by four to five wins and were particularly bad in close games, going 43-52 in games decided by three runs or fewer. Only one Indians reliever ranked in the top 50 in baseball in expected wins added, which measures a reliever’s performance while taking into account the situation (score, inning, men on base, number of outs) the reliever inherits.
Law mentions the main culprits to this poor bullpen in 2008: the struggles of Borowski and Betancourt’s really poor start. Of course Wood alone won’t fix the bullpen, but add him to a better performance from Betancourt, the trade for Joe Smith, and help from the minors, and the Indians should have the makings of a solid bullpen in ’09 with very good depth.
And this is why he thinks Wood represents good value for the Tribe:
Wood had no arm problems in his first full year in relief, although he missed a few weeks with back soreness and a blister on his index finger. He still threw more innings than Brian Fuentes and just two fewer than Rodriguez. His stuff translated well to the relief role, as he showed a mid-90s four-seamer with good life and a low-80s slider with a very sharp, late break. He threw strikes (issuing half the unintentional walks that K-Rod did) and was very aggressive in attacking hitters. He’s likely to give up a few more long balls this year, but as long as he’s healthy, he’ll be a big upgrade over what Cleveland used in the ninth inning last season. The contract limits Cleveland’s risk if Wood does get hurt again, and the third year will kick in only if he’s healthy and effective.
Is Wood overvalued at $10 million? Probably. But as has been mentioned, free agents are almost always overvauled and this was a position of great need for the Indians. I trust Shapiro has evaluated the risk and thought this was worth the money he paid.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 1:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Forgot to include the link:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=3768650&name=law_keith
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great, now it smells like bickering in here.
by afh4 on Dec 14, 2008 5:56 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Smell it yourself. I already smelled it. Actually do some of your own smelling and then explain to me how what I’m smelling is wrong. You could actually respond to my smelling instead of just talking about what some other writer smelled.
by afh4 on Dec 14, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions 7 recs
It’s hard to believe that anyone other than your master, Jay, would consider reccing this.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 15, 2008 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The shame of it is, I liked the biomechanical stuff Kyle did. Maybe he’ll come back eventually once his temper calms.
by NickFantana on Dec 14, 2008 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, forgive me if the following as been brought up somewhere above, but I haven’t seen it, so here goes.
I think you need to consider the Tribe’s history here…
2004 – bullpen was awful the first half of the year, Wickman returned from injury, and the bullpen performed pretty well in the second half, and so did the team.
2005 – Wickman was generally effective, and the overall bullpen was very good. So was the team.
2006 – I think Shapiro labeled this as one of the 5 worst bullpens in the WWII era. Problems at closer, and the whole bullpen struggled. Completely killed the team.
2007 – Borowski was far from dominant, but effective. Rest of bullpen was excellent. So was the team.
2008 – Borowski was a dumpster fire, and so was the rest of the bullpen. And so was the team. Lewis came in and was very good, and the bullpen suddenly got a lot better. And so did the team.
So basically, every year for the past 5 years, the success of the bullpen has been a huge driver of the success of the team…and every year that the Indians have had an effective closer, the rest of the bullpen has pitched pretty well. Maybe that’s a conicidence, maybe not. I’m not aware of any studies that show how the effectiveness of a closer can impact the “non-closer” relievers, so maybe someone else can help me out. Baseball commentators always talked about how having an effective closer can help the rest of the bullpen – I never quite bought into that, but the last five years are making me a believer.
So with all that history in place, perhaps we can better understand Shapiro’s thinking, and willingness to take more of a risk in signing Wood. Maybe Jensen Lewis would be a real effective closer this year. But maybe you can understand why Shapiro wasn’t too thrilled about finding that out and perhaps allowing another season to wash down the drain.
I love the signing. If it works, this is a pretty good team, one that I think is a playoff contender. And if they had pursued Furcal instead and the bullpen failed again, I don’t care how good Furcal would’ve been…it wouldn’t have been good enough to make them a contender.
by TribeJay on Dec 14, 2008 6:58 PM EST reply actions 4 recs
Overall, agree strongly. I just always feel obliged to point out that the 2007 bullpen was not really close to being excellent. Iron and Steel Rafaels were great, and Lewis had a fine couple of months, but that was it. Our closer had an ERA that was worse than league average and blew more than one lead of 3+ runs. The other four spots were a rotating cast of flimsy shoestrings. It actually was one of the most impressive things Wedge has ever done as manager, the way he got a really great overall result out when he had very limited options.
That season, 2007, thus becomes an interesting test case, in that it was neither an aberrant “epic fail” nor an aberrant season where everyone dominates and nobody knows why. The 2007 bullpen shows the power of having “one more guy” who can dominate the competition or at least get the job done. If we don’t have Perez, we could have had a cascade of bullpen failures that put the division out of reach, and if we don’t have Lewis, that race to the postseason would have been a lot tighter, as well as the ALDS.
It seems like we hardly ever get a “typical” bullpen season, but in a typical one, one extra guy can make a big difference.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, the depth wasn’t there. But the main set-up guys were brilliant, and for all the negatives about JoBo, he was “effective” 46 times. Basically, when they got a lead, they were pretty good at keeping it. Even if they weren’t great throughout, the parts that were good really helped lead to victories. So by my own personal definition, it was a good bullpen. :)
by TribeJay on Dec 14, 2008 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See, I told you guys, TribeJay is no fool.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve always liked TribeJay, we just had differences of opinion about Andy
by Roger Dorn on Dec 14, 2008 8:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah and TribeJay’s opinion is closer to the truth (smiley face).
by oxforddave on Dec 14, 2008 9:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think this raises a good point, and is sort of lost in all the empirical analysis on what free agents are worth, and that is, the contextual value of the player to the specific team signing them. if a team is killed by a sub-par offense it makes sense that they’re willing to stick their necks out a little bit to get a bat – the key seems to be knowing how much above is simply too much above the added benefit.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 14, 2008 7:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty good points. I know it’s easy to rest back on the intellectual comfort that spending money on relief pitching is a fool’s errand because constructing good bullpens is supposed to be easy to do. Or perhaps the corollary is that good relief pitchers are easy to find, but consistently good relievers aren’t. Hence the boom or bust of the past couple years. So when an elite reliever comes along in a season when it’s a buyers’ market for relievers, Shapiro finally figures that after years of try to bet on old guys or guys with questionable stuff it’s time to break down and sign an honest to goodness flamethrower.
Did the Indians overspend? Of course they did, that’s the nature of free agency. They minimized their risk by making it a two-year deal – in fact, I don’t know if Wood would be an Indian if Cleveland had to go to 3/$30M.
by Ryan on Dec 14, 2008 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I recall the 2006 disaster being largely attributable to the starters not getting deep into the game and the middle relief being atrocious. Wickman was almost a non-factor in the meltdown, certainly not the trigger. In fact, his stats for 2006 are remarkably similar to his effective 2004 numbers
2004 (2006, Indians only)
IP 29.2 (28)
ERA 4.25 (4.18)
*ERA+ 103 (108)
WHIP 1.449 (1.429)
by SuddenSam on Dec 14, 2008 9:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
whoa, total nerd fight in this thread
question for anyone who can answer: when you all are talking about the “marginal value” of a win, are we accounting for overall team record?
i.e., the marginal value of a win to an 85 win team would, in my estimation, be drastically higher than the marginal value of a win to a 60 win team, or to a 100 win team.
up to a certain point, each additional win would increase the probability of a playoff appearance at an increasing rate—i.e., say an 85 win team (talking about talent level here, not actual W/L—a team with 85 win talent) in our division has something like a 70% chance of making the playoffs. so you figure, going from an 85 win to an 86 win team would increase the probability of making the playoffs by, say 5, and going from an 86 to an 87 win team might increase your chances by say 8, and so on.
that would happen up until a certain point, and then a diminishing returns type principle would kick in—if you’re a 97 win team, you’ve probably got like a 95% chance at making the playoffs, and so every additional win you add in terms of talent level actually yields little in terms of marginal value.
what i’m getting at is this—any valuation of kerry wood’s value would, at least as far as i can figure, have to take into account the fact that the indians are very much a fringe-playoff team right now, and the marginal value of adding a few “wins” worth of talent to our club is probably much greater than, say, adding a few wins to the royals, or for that matter, a team like the cubs or something, who are a little bit ahead of everyone in their division in terms of talent.
does this make sense? maybe i’m way off, or maybe you already have taken this into account and i just didn’t know.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Dec 14, 2008 7:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, and there’s been some very interesting research on exactly this subject. While we haven’t discussed it, I think everyone here assumes that the Indians are in that position where signing quality free agents is an especially good investment, and that’s basically what you’re saying.
by Jay on Dec 14, 2008 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this has been discussed elsewhere. Cap’n is exactly right (must be the Norwalk roots). A marginal in the mid-80’s is worth more than in the mid-90’s or mid-70’s. That why writers like Neyer complain about teams like the Royals spending big money on free agents. Of course you want to keep your team competative and show the fans you want to win, so you’re not going to shoot for 50 wins, but spending a lot of money to add a few wins on a bad teams is not a good investment (like the Gil Meche contract). They should be trying to aquire players who have the chance to be very valuable in the future. To a team like the Indians, who most assume are on the fringe of playoff contention, it is well worth adding a few marginal wins to possibly vault the team in to the playoffs.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what up fellow maple city-ite? i’ll be heading back to the ’walk here in a week or so. tough times back home—norwalk furniture biting the dust was huge, and i hear that clevite (is it still clevite? whatever) north of town closed too. rough waters for a town of 16,000 or so. . .
hey, i’m glad that i wasn’t way off with my posturing, and also that you guys were able to understand my point, notwithstanding my abuse of the english language (“valuation of kerry wood’s value”? nice). it’s finals time here at ye olde law schoole, and i apparently have lost my ability to communicate with the outside world.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Dec 14, 2008 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I heard about Furniture closing. My mom said they’re being bought out and are supposed to reopen again but who knows how many people they can hire back. A town that size cannot afford to lose that many jobs. I haven’t been home much the past year due to my accident, and I won’t be going home for Christmas because I’m having another surgery on Tuesday, so it’s hard for me to keep up with what’s going on there. I keep hearing that an Applebee’s is supposed to open but I guess it hasn’t happened yet.
Some time when we’re both home we’ll have to meet up to have a drink and talk Indians baseball.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2008 9:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sounds good man, maybe we can hit up the old OB or the shamrock, where i’m sure i’ll awkwardly run into about five of my old high school teachers.
and that applebee’s rumor has been floated for awhile now. . . i’ll believe it when i see it. it just seems too good to be true. lol. the new mexican place is pretty awesome, by the way.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Dec 15, 2008 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Be sure to let me know when you’re coming into the area. For now, I’m living back home in Sandusky/Huron.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 15, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think that contracts are an entire universe of variables (multiple needs, reliever glut, cost of inaction as it applies to us and opponents, distance from playoff spot, the fact that Wood isn’t a “failed starter” in terms of his stuff, ya da ya da). Trying to narrow a contract down to some linear regression is so simplistic – basically, it highlights the danger of extrapolation. This isn’t evaluating player performance – it’s evaluating, basically, lawyer performance. Obviously, there are some contracts out there that are terrible for the club that tendered them, and anyone can see that. But the resolution for judging contracts is just not anywhere close to what KB argued it was. You simply can’t zoom in on a 1-2 million difference. Too many variables.
by joeee on Dec 15, 2008 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I also am not going to lose any sleep even if I accept the fact that we overpayed, since it is only a 1-2mm overpaying according to the hardcore statheads. If it were 1-2mm over the course of 4+ years, then I would take an issue with it. Two years though? We could do a lot worse
by Roger Dorn on Dec 15, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Right. This is part of why really bad teams don’t sign FA’s — except for a ‘veteran leader’ type of guy like Mike Sweeney or some crap.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Dec 15, 2008 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, just wanted to thank Jay for the shoutout from Aug 06 in the first rumor thread. I thought I had proposed that, but couldn’t recall it.
Plus I’ve been offline for around 2 weeks, and just now trying to get through the massive threads that have been posted. Hopefully I’ll be caught up by Christmas.
by talonk on Dec 15, 2008 12:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Wow. That’s all I can say after reading this thread. Just… Wow. A truly engaging thread.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
by Spidey on Dec 17, 2008 3:39 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
So how exactly is this signing better than the KRod one? Makes me sad, too, because I ragged on the KRod sginign hardcore when I thought we wer egetting Wood for $6-7 million (possibly delusional on my part).
by Joe. on Dec 17, 2008 10:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The Indians guaranteed only 55% of the money that the Mets did, so that’s a whole lot less risk. Two years guaranteed is inherently better than three, especially for a pitcher. There is a decent chance that Wood is already a better pitcher than K-Rod. K-Rod racked up great save stats, but his peripherals have been declining for years, and he’s far from a lock to be an elite pitcher. Wood has the better raw stuff and far better K rates.
by Jay on Dec 18, 2008 12:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would not call a K rate of 11.3 far better than one of 10, especially when one accomplished it in JV and the other in MLB. The better argument is the walk rates but there’s still the league difference to account for at least some of that.
Wood has the better upside and for that I am happy. But I think at that price he is far too great a risk. Why not pay a couple extra million a year and add just one more year for the sure thing? There’s a good chance Wood ends up being the better signing, but there is still a larger to my liking probability that this deal blows up in the Tribe’s face and K-Rod ends up performing as advertised.
Also, saves? You really think I was looking at saves? I’m hurt :(
by Joe. on Dec 18, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, it’s not a huge difference in K rate, but consider the whole track record. Wood had as good of a K rate as a starter, eight years ago, as K-Rod had as a reliever last year.
I don’t see K-Rod as a “sure thing” or even as better than Wood, and I’m not alone in this. I think just about every team except the Mets would prefer our deal to theirs, and the Mets … are not smart.
by Jay on Dec 18, 2008 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think K-Rod is anywhere near a sure thing. His velocity dip worries me, a lot.
by afh4 on Dec 18, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
is that the name of his slider? “the velocity dip”
by Brick. on Dec 18, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like a rap song
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 19, 2008 1:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or a dance popular at physics parties
by Logodaedalus on Dec 20, 2008 3:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs























