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Like we needed another reason to love that guy.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 15, 2008 1:32 PM EST reply actions
You have to love Kenny Lofton. Too bad we have Dellucci wasting space in the outfiled right now. Otherwise I’d advocate Lofton be given a contract just on principal alone.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 15, 2008 1:33 PM EST reply actions
I hate to hear that name Dellucci is there anyway we can take up a donation to get rid of him.
Fan in Texas
Fun with punctuation:
-“I hate to hear that name, Dellucci. Is there any way we can take up a donation to get rid of him?”
-“I hate to hear that. Name Dellucci! Is there any way we can? Take up a donation to get rid of him!”
-“I hate to hear. That name? ‘Dellucci’. Is there any way we can take up a donation to get rid of him?”
-“I hate to hear that ‘Name Dellucci’ is there. Anyway, we can take up a donation to get rid of him.”
/assface
by Logodaedalus on Dec 15, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions 9 recs
How many minutes of your life were wasted thinking up that comment?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 15, 2008 9:21 PM EST up reply actions
Good point.
I was just kidding, of course.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 15, 2008 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe if your Kenny Lofton bobblehead had talked to my CC Sabathia “Disco” Bobblehead, this whole mess could have been avoided.
by woodsmeister on Dec 15, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
I still have my CC disco bobblehead. My wife asked me if I wanted to throw it out since he’s a Yankee, but I said no way.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 15, 2008 5:41 PM EST up reply actions
My girlfriend made a similar comment about my Cy Cy Bobble and my autographed baseball. Although, she has a point with the baseball. Its signed by CC and Lee (and Sowers, unfortunately). I might be selling high on that one right now, but I still doubt I’ll do it.
by Fundamentals on Dec 15, 2008 6:38 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the economy is kinda, well, tanking right now, and the prices for goods (especially non-essentials) and what people are willing or can afford to pay are decreasing. Bought gas lately? Anyway my suggestion to you would be: SELL! SELL! SELL! OH MY GOD, HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET THROUGH THIS! SELL! But maybe I’m over-reacting.
I’d keep the bobblehead though. Those things can cure depression with their constant positive affirmation.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 15, 2008 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Or if you hold on to it until Sowers wins the Cy Young next season, think what it’ll be worth!
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
I was going to make a comment but then I realized I would have bet everything in my life on Cliff Lee not winning the Cy this past year, so …
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 15, 2008 7:33 PM EST up reply actions
does it need to be re-stated that Kenny Lofton is a true Indian
by APV on Dec 15, 2008 3:05 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
You mean True Indian™, I assume?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 15, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
and Tom Mastny is a True Indonesian
by Logodaedalus on Dec 15, 2008 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Lofton has been my favorite player ever since I can remember. Playing that one season for the Yankees was emotionally traumatizing, but 2007 made up for all of that. Sizemore may be on the precipice of becoming my favorite player, but Kenny will always be #1 somewhere in my heart. Nice to see him bad mouthing the Empire.
I was 9 the last time Jacoby donned a Tribe uni, and honestly if there was one Indian to put on a mantle from that era it’s Cory Snyder.
Seeing as how he holds the title of my favorite human ever, he’s ineligible to receive the favorite Indian award.
I think Adam’s post was sarc. Just a little bit.
Cory Snyder is your favorite human ever, huh? My favorites from that era have to be Brett Butler and Joe Carter.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 16, 2008 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I’m failing to grasp how someone could sarcastically mention Brook Jacoby as a favorite Indian candidate. If I was ten years older, he’d certainly be up there. I mean, mustache. C’mon.
Actually, I liked Jacoby a lot, too. Master of the solo HR.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 16, 2008 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
OPS+ of 75 at his peak. Most similar (by age) to Frank Croucher. Now that’s a Catcher’s name.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Lofton: swing for the fences, terrible plate discipline, hit home run followed by 30 straight popups, jaking it in the outfield, whining about every called strike. 2001: OPS+ of 89. .322 OBP.
How come Kenny rather than Albert or Manny?
Wow, talk about hand-picking a stat line. .299/.372/.423, 107 OPS+ on his career. Kenny has played parts of ten seasons in Cleveland and you picked the one in which he didn’t post an OPS+ of over 100 or an OBP over .360. The man was rightfully deified when he was here.
Toward the end of his Cleveland tenure Kenny was stuck with an upper-cut swing. He played a different sort of game than he did during 1993 and 1994, when he was a great player. Albert was a career OPS+ 143. Manny career OPS+ 155.
Sometimes I think Rico Carty is my favorite Indian. He’s not the best Indian, but I like his attitude. Kenny seems to get points for his attitude.
This whole line of discussion is worthless. Nobody was comparing Lofton to anyone else anyway, but if you were going to, you certainly wouldn’t use OPS+, which gives no credit for the defense provided by a Gold Glove center fielder — not to mention five straight SB titles.
I am comparing Lofton to Belle and Ramirez. I am baffled by all the Lofton love.
And we’re using Gold Glove awards as an indication of his value?
My point is that I think his ability to hit is sometimes devalued by comments that mention only his defense and stolen bases. He was quite capable of driving a ball and getting on base. He’s 22nd all-time on the Indians in OBP, 28th in batting average, 41st in slugging, 26th in OPS, 11th in walks, 12th in total bases, 11th in doubles, 13th in triples and 32nd in HR. His RC number is actually higher than Manny’s.
The point is that he was hardly some one trick pony who was essentially Willie Mays Hayes. Lofton was a very, very good player for the Indians. I agree with Jay though, isn’t “favorite” more a product of emotion than stats? I grew up loving Cory Snyder, God knows it wasn’t because he was good.
I agree with you on the emotions. As I said about Rico Carty. And Lofton was an awesome player in the early to mid 1990s. But he was pretty crummy in 2001, and that’s hard to overlook. By the end of his Indians tenure he was, to me, neither good nor likable.
I know Albert Belle isn’t a lovable guy, and Manny “abandoned” Cleveland for RSN, but damn if I don’t have fond memories of seeing pitchers try to get fastballs past the two of them.
First it was Sandy. Then it was Baerga, Belle and Nagy. When Lofton emerged the next year, that was the turning point. You could just tell we were getting good.
Then there were good signs from Whitten and Sorrento, and you kept hearing about how good Reggie Jefferson, Wayne Kirby, and Mark Lewis were going to be. Oh, and Thome.
Some stuck and some didn’t.
And then Manny showed, we added veterans, and we were totally dominant.
It still amazes me that we had Lofton, Belle, and Ramirez in one OF all at one time.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
And that we still never won a WS. God, I still shudder thinking about that sometimes.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
That’s the most negative way of looking back at it. The 90s were a feast.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Didn’t say I didn’t enjoy them, but you’re not human if you don’t have at least a small twinge of disappointment that one of those teams never sealed the deal.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
But to focus on that over the joys of watching Kenny steal home is just… communist. There, I said it.
Agreed. having a “small twinge” of disappointment is not the same as focusing. The play where Kenny stole home from second in the 1995 ALDS is my all-time favorite Indians play.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 2:47 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, my bad. The look on Unit’s face was priceless. He was dogging it to cover home and was stunned to see the catcher (Wilson?) actually throw him the ball when Lofton was trying to score.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 8:25 PM EST up reply actions
Not right now, no, but I’m in a sentimental mood. I just did all of my Christmas shopping online (yes, I am at work, too). I’d brag about some of the Tribe related gifts I just purchased, but my brother might read this. It’s a damned cool gift though, I swear.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Nice! I sort of don’t have anyone to buy for this year but my folks. It’s kinda weird.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 16, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
The problem is you seem to be making the assumption that people should choose their favorites based on an objective measure of their talent. There’s no reason to make that assumption. My favorite player could be Alex Cole, just because I liked his glasses, if I wanted it to be (it’s not).
I’ll bet approximately 95% of Indians fans smile when they hear the name Alex Cole. Strictly because of those frames.
by supermarioelia on Dec 15, 2008 11:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Mario – what’s this I read? You’ve got a girlfriend? Are you outta yer mind? You play it right son and you’ll be doin’ 23 yo ER nurses two at a time for the rest of your natural life! Med school girlfriends have a shelf life of less than five years after which they become parasitic ex-wifes. For the love of Hippocrates – don’t do it boy!
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
lol
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 16, 2008 1:03 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t worry, we already broke up.
But if anyone wonders to themselves what world of medicine Chuck is talking about, you have to read the book House of God. Really puts hospitals in the 70s into a strange, strange light.
by supermarioelia on Dec 16, 2008 8:49 AM EST up reply actions
The same Rico Carty who always played with his wallet in his back pocket because he didn’t trust his teammates?
by woodsmeister on Dec 16, 2008 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Did Kenny run over your dog? Why does it need to be a debate? He’s my favorite player, I don’t see a need to quantify that
I don’t see why. 2000 and 2001 he was the CF for one of the best fielding teams I know of. Many thought it was the end of a spectacular and sometimes great career for Kenny. Then, he baffled everyone by playing the next SIX seasons with big time contributions to contending teams. Even with this extended career in his “down” years, he STILL has an OBP over .370 in his career and probably the best base stealer in his era.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 15, 2008 11:57 PM EST up reply actions
It also doesn’t seem to matter that Belle was a total head-case and Manny was well…Manny. I loved (love) Lofton because he was everything I wanted to be as a baseball player. I’ll be the first to admit I never had any potential to hit for much power. But I prided myself on my ability to make contact, run the bases, and play defense. Was there a better player – from a die-hard Tribe fan’s point of view – to idolize? I think not. Well…maybe, just maybe, Willie Mays Hayes.
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 16, 2008 3:56 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with the idealized version of Lofton—a dynamic offensive force, a brilliant defender—and acknowledge that he could have been a great player like Henderson and Raines. But he began to see himself as a power hitter and started swinging for the fences, and his offense suffered. His self-image didn’t correspond with his talents. He didn’t seem to take good routes on balls but was typically able to outrun the ball. As he got older his defensive limitations became more apparent. An odd guy. He had only 23 and 21 doubles in 2000 and 2001, and only once attained double figures in triples (13 in 1995) with the Indians.
I actually agree with just about everything you wrote there.
What I disagree with is, why are you even bringing this up?
Who nominated Lofton for the Hall of Fame?
Who said he was better than some other guy?
He was a signature player for some of the best years in franchise history. Why beat up on him for no reason?
Agree, all we’re doing here is raising a glass to an old fan favorite – any attempt to objectively quantify the reasons for not doing so are as out of place as telling someone their dad smells funny during his 75th birthday party.
by danvail on Dec 16, 2008 6:45 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I think me and danvail are on the same page here.
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 16, 2008 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
Is this supposed to be the Yeah Kenny You’re Great!!! thread? And all others shut your traps?
I’m bringing it up because I find it interesting. Sorry if I’m disagreeing with everybody, but that’s what I think. Such groupthink that can brook no alternate opinions! We are all entitled to our opinions, and in a forum, everyone should be permitted to communicate (with all due respect) an opinion. I was trying to engage a discussion on the perceived merits of KL.
I’d raise a glass to him. I respect your opinions.
Dude … did you even read the story that this whole thread is about? Go up there, click on the link and read it.
Yes, the purpose of this thread is to celebrate Lofton and his True Indianness. Responding with a dumb list of old complaints, and throwing up his worst season of stats, was just a dick move.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were just oblivious to the story that is linked above, which is the whole reason we are taking a a moment to celebrate the guy.
Of course I read it. And then I read all the ensuing paeans to Lofton. And I thought, Why does everyone have such a great affection for Lofton?
Maybe I’m the only Indians fan who felt let down by him, disappointed. Maybe I’m the only one who thinks it’s odd how he gets a pass. And odd how one is not even permitted to question, let alone criticize, his reputation. Robbie Alomar gets challenged, but then he’s not very likable.
If we want to talk about True Indians, I nominate Miguel Dilone, or Brook Jacoby even.
Sorry to piss on your tent. That certainly wasn’t my intention.
Those two guys, combined, played as many seasons in Cleveland as Kenny. You are making even less sense here than you were earlier. The whole purpose of this was for everyone to appreciate one more thing Kenny did for us. The fact that you were disappointed because the guy had the temerity to have a bad year is well established. Stop urinating in our punch bowl.
Andre Thornton, then. How can one be more of a True indian? And it wasn’t one bad year. Why was he traded in 1997?
Step back, please, while I get a chair nearer to the punch bowl.
Louis Sockalexis was the only TRUE Indian.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 17, 2008 2:24 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I just want to add, I see a story like this and it makes me proud to have a guy that respected our town and played his tail off for us. On the other hand, we have a certain WR playing football in Cleveland collecting his huge paycheck while crying about how the fans aren’t respecting him
This is why Clevelanders love Kenny Lofton and why if you want to complain about Lofton, you probably are going to be in the small minority
Yeah, at least when Kenny was wearing a Yankees hat, he was, like, ON the Yankees.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 17, 2008 2:49 AM EST up reply actions
would you quit focusing on his worst two years as an Indian. He had like 8 years before that where we was awesome. Not to mention the 8 years after that where he was a extremely useful journeyman for some very good teams.
Anyone know if there is another player who played with more different teams in the post season? (6!)
Does he hold some sort of record for most playoff games without a ring? (95!)
Here’s some more stuff I find of interest:
Rickey Henderson never hit more than seven triples in a season. His season high in terms of total bases was 285. Tim Raines’ career high TB was 279. Joe Morgan’s was 284.
Kenny Lofton’s career high in total bases was 295 in 1996. That’s pretty impressive.
Rod Carew’s career high was 351. And the greatest Indians’ centerfielder (sorry, Grady and Kenny), Tris Speaker, had a career high of 350 total bases, which I imagine is the Indians’ record.
Kenny Lofton is like the girlfriend you meet at someone’s wedding, and she comes across really sweet and nice, so you get together. Then she moves in with you and everything is looking pretty good. After about a month she loses her job, and starts spending all her days in front of the television doing ketamine and eating pints of Häagen-Dazs rum raisin ice cream. Then she starts stealing your change and buying pints of Remy Martin. You finally manage to get her out of your home, and you have to change the locks on the door. Even then, she comes by drunk late at night and tries to kick down the door.
And whenever you meet your friends or family, they all say, “What happened with Kenny? She was great! I really liked her. You made a big mistake!”
you forgot this line (in between your 2nd and 3rd sentences):
And everything is great. For 8 years the two of you have a great time, lots of great sex, and manage to accumulate a bunch of really great memories
Also, this line at the end:
And so you think, maybe so. And then you run into her at the store one day, you catch up on old times, go back to her place and relive your collective past glory for a nice two months before you both amicably move on.
by APV on Dec 16, 2008 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Go on, perfesser. Get your own damn story.
The line at the end, properly: You see her one late night at Circle K with a Bosnian mobster wearing gold chains and a track suit, and you think, There but for the grace of god go I.
by odradek on Dec 16, 2008 10:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, when Kenny killed your dog, was it the obvious glee with which he performed the act or the specific technique that he employed that made you despise him so?
by danvail on Dec 16, 2008 10:46 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Lets just give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe his grandma backed the car out at the most inopportune time?
by Chief Wahoo on Dec 17, 2008 12:07 AM EST up reply actions
The gaping hole in this analogy is that baseball players don’t ever last forever, they always decline eventually.
I can’t even imagine what you mean by “free pass.” For what, being really good for several years, but not forever?
You know, I have my own irrational player-hater things — Nagy for example — but if Nagy did something really cool and everyone just wanted to say good things about him, do you know what I’d do? I’d shut the hell up. And I’m one of the sitemods.
Like I said … dick move.
He did a lot of public pouting in order to get a larger contract extension. The extension was unwise and a drag on team payroll, and he was terrible for the entire contract. And then there was all that nibbling … the guy drove me nuts. He also had the BenFran thing going where he was absurdly overrated, because he got run-supported to five straight seasons of 15 wins. Also … “losing pitcher,” 1997 World Series.
I guess I’m a little young/non-native to remember or have any ire about pouting.
Charles Nagy has always just struck me as being incredibly, incredibly boring. That might just be his face though.
Hey everybody, Sauna Pants!
by afh4 on Dec 17, 2008 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
when a friend of mine asked me, point blank, what nagy’s career ERA was a year ago or so, I said 4.50. it’s 4.52. thats my charles nagy story.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 17, 2008 2:00 AM EST up reply actions
It’s a dick move to question Kenny Lofton’s performance with the Indians? I don’t even hate the guy.
Of course players decline. Lofton’s post-Cleveland career suggests some sort of resurgence. What arrested this inevitable decline? Do you remember seeing Lofton play in Cleveland in 2001?
I don’t recall using the phrase “free pass.” I said Kenny is treated differently today than Manny, Albert, Thome or Roberto Alomar. And I asked why. For which I was told I was ruining the celebration. For which I am told to shut the hell up. That’s some righteous discourse right there.
Kenny left the Indians because the Indians didn’t want him. In comparison:
-Thome left for tons of money after saying he wouldn’t.
-Manny left for tons of money to hated rival.
-Robbie Alomar isn’t hated by anyone that I’ve ever heard. But if he is, it’s because he was aloof and once spit in a dude’s face.
-Albert left for tons of money and was clearly a gigantic ass. That’s why he’s hated.
Isn’t it clear why Kenny isn’t grouped with those players? Lofton kept coming back to the Indians after they tried to get rid of him for chrissakes.
Literally the only bad memory anyone has of Kenny is of him going into a decline while in Cleveland. He did everything else right. All the other guys have created quite a few bad memories that are unique to them, not generic to old baseball players.
Um, I don’t hate Belle. He represents the 95 Indians to me. It was completely in his character to leave for more money. We all knew he was a jerk too, but don’t pretend seeing him at the plate, staring down a pitcher, while wearing a tribe uni didn’t make you feel invincible.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 17, 2008 7:55 AM EST up reply actions
My Mom doesn’t know anything about the Indians of ’95. But she would hate him if she knew how violent he was.
You try to run down one group of trick-or-treaters and you’re branded for life.
That fan he beaned in the stands deserved what he got. The photographer he beaned didn’t.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 17, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions
beaning the fan in the stands was awesome and evidence that, if properly motivated, Belle had a fantastic outfield arm
And Accurate too!
There was an interview with the “fan”, a fine mulleted fellow, on WUAB the same day of the incident in 91 where he lifted up his half-shirt to show a round red welt in the dead center of his chest.
When he threw the ball at the SI photographer in 96 he managed to hit the inside of the lens hood which required him threading the ball though a ring with a roughly 9 inch diameter.
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 17, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Belle will always be the player I most associate with the emergence of the Indians…and as such, will always make my top 5 favorite players. More generally, the trio of Belle, Baerga and Lofton are for me indelibly connected with that era.
Roberto Alomar was probably the player I most enjoyed watching in a Tribe uni.
David Justice was a guy I really enjoyed watching.
Thome was never my favorite, but the person I most associate with HRs into the mezzanine section of RF.
Manny was the idiot savant of the bunch who, I continue to believe, misses his days in Cleveland when he could actually hide in a lineup with guys like Thome and Belle and Alomar.
Omar is Omar.
What’s striking is I have very few really fond memories of our pitchers from that era. It’s hard to remember when Nagy was good because his demise was so drawn out. I loved watching El Presidente. I can’t for the life of me remember a single regular season game Hershiser pitched, but can’t think of the ’95 and ’97 playoffs without him. In contrast, the current era of Indians are dominated by pitchers for me. CC and Fausto and Lee and even Westbrook.
I agree with pretty much everything here. Belle, baerga and Lofton WERE the 90’s Indians. Though I don’t remember Alomar too much as for some reason like 1999-2004 are a blur for me in terms of Indians ball. Also agree about the pitchers. Maybe it’s just because there were no real standouts. But I agree with you on this era: CC, Fausto, Lee, even Westbrook will always stand out to me. The only position players that reach “Belle, baerga, Lofton” territory for me are Vic and Grady. Maybe Jhonny, and maybe Asdrubal at some point.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t necessarily agree about this current crop of Indians. I think Sabathia (and to a lesser degree, Westbrook) will be forever associated with the “rebuilding Indians” oh 2001-2007. He only went to the playoffs once and didn’t pitch well.
The “Youth Movement Indians” that’s going to be associated with the ALCS of ’07 and the playoff run of ’05 is going to be Grady, JP, and Fausto (despite Fausto not being there in 2005). This is going to be especially true once the Tribe makes the playoffs a couple more times with those guys at the helm.
I think Lee is going to exist as a weird Nowhere Man.
And I think, with two more good seasons, Victor is going to be the symbol of Indians baseball from 2000-2010. Grady will share that mantle from ‘05-’10 and then clearly represent the Indians from ‘10 until he leaves. I think there’s a decent chance Grady ends up being “Mr. Tribe.”
i fully expect the indians to offer to put a statue outside the stadium of grady and for him to humbly insist they don’t.
Consider this: If the Indians can lock up Grady and he stays healthy then Grady will have played 14 full seasons as an Indian by the time he’s 35. That seems like a lot.
His most similar batters are (in order) Barry Bonds, Jack Clark, and Duke Snider. If Clark had been a CF he’d be a hall of famer. The other two already are.
Sorry, obviously pitched in the playoffs twice for the Indians, in ’01 as well. That seems like a very long time ago.
This makes sense, but I do think people will remember Lee.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I never liked Justice. He was too associated with the downfall of my beloved/“invincible” ’95 Indians. Game 6 solo shot… he hurted me.
My love of Justice comes almost entirely from the ’97 season, in which Justice just seemed invincible at the plate (.329/.418/.596). It was far and away his career best season, and it came for us.
I always remember that 98 ALDS, which he seemed to win for us single-handedly — not just slugging 750, but he made a few key plays in the field, too.
God my memory is just so awful I just can’t remember single-game or series events like this from before 2005, and even then it’s hazy.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah for me it comes down to the emotions that were formed during the events transcending the specific memories. That initial pre-teen rage that Justice invoked in ‘95 just tainted all his accomplishments in Cleveland for me. It felt wrong to me to just forget what he did to what was in my young mind a homegrown team. The joy of having a team that we built from the ground up (which is of course vastly oversimplified) finally come up and just dominate everyone else made me so proud to be an Indians fan and a Cleveland fan. Rooting for this acquisition that just two years earlier put the nail in our WS coffin… made me feel dirty. Of course, if we actually won in ’97, I think I’d have gotten over it.
See, us older folk didn’t have that kind of formative experience. Our formative experience was, the Indians were terrible for the first 20 years we were aware of baseball.
I think this is why Clevelanders that grew up in the 70s had it the worst. The best you guys got was solid football and basketball in the 80s that ended up crushing souls.
Born in the 80s/growing up in the 90s generation has had a lot of very good baseball for the last almost 15 years and now LeBron.
Thank you for reminding me that my life has been a complete sports loss. Oh where have you gone, Ted Uhlaender?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 19, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
I can relate
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 3:12 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, David Justice was married to Halle Berry – I don’t care if he ever got a hit, that’s good enough for me.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I’m bitter about this, because they split up right as he came to Cleveland, and he bought the house NEXT DOOR to a grade school classmate of mine. Obviously, this classmate would have quickly become a very popular young man if his house afforded his classmates the potential for a peek into Halle Berry’s bedroom.
SO. DAMN. CLOSE.
I’m a huge Belle fan – anybody who throws baseballs at sports reporters is all right by me. Plus I got to meet him in person once and he was a pretty regular guy.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
When I worked at NASA Lewis the guy who ran the gym was also one of the Indian’s trainers. Every now and then one of the guy’s clients would drop by. Belle came by one day in April as I recall and just sat around and shot the shot with a couple of us. Pretty right dude, a little shorter than I expected but awful wide. The trainer said that Belle could press 225 on the incline bench for 12+ reps – very impressive. Any way he wasn’t abusive and foaming at the mouth like you’d expect from everything you read. Kinda quiet actually.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
There’s a good saying about integrity, I can’t remember what it is … but I’m pretty sure it isn’t, “Integrity is how you act on the day you happen to run into Chuck in a bar/gym while in a good mood.”
by Jay on Dec 19, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
There isn’t anything useful about this discourse. Its entire effect is to annoy other users while gratifying its author. That kind of behavior makes you an anti-social narcissist, not a free speech martyr.
Chuck’s sturdy guys-in-a-bar analogy is useful here. If you were with a dozen people in a bar, and half of them had made a point of saying that you were being The Annoying Guy, would you (a) shut up for a little while, (b) at least change the subject, or © keep talking until everybody else left and/or you got beat up?
The way we run this forum is simple: We kick out anti-social people before everyone else gets annoyed and leaves the virtual watering hole. We don’t care about one person gratifying himself, we care about the whole group.
Bottom line: Stop annoying people. It serves no purpose.
It’s not my intention to annoy anyone. I said that upthread a couple of times. Nor is this is any way gratifying to me. I asked a question and was shouted down in a frankly anti-social manner.
I’ve spent a lot of time in bars, but I don’t recall ever being called an annoying guy. I’m respectful of other peoples’ opinions and I know when to keep my mouth shut. I’m sorry if I’m annoying you. That isn’t my intention.
I could go back to Baseball Reference and list an amazing amount of stuff about Albert Belle. But he isn’t considered a signature player because he’s such a difficult personality. He didn’t smile.
People: Lofton did something cool!
You: Lofton sucks!
People: What does that have to do with him doing this cool thing?
You: Don’t make me shut up!
That is my 3 AM summary of this thread.
by Voltaire on Dec 17, 2008 3:07 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
For the record, I wasn’t thrilled when we traded Grissom (on a much cheaper contract) and re-signed Lofton, and I was pretty annoyed when we picked up that 2001 option. He clearly was past his prime.
I don’t think he had a real resurgence, although the fact he remained useful for six or seven more years was impressive. I think he was just protected by playing part-time, being put in platoon roles, and facing NL pitching for the most part.
His pay cut from ‘01 to ’02 was really incredible-from 8 million to 1 million. It’s especially bizarre when you see that he was better in ’02 and ’03 then he had been in 4 or so years, with the exception of a nice 1999.
Obviously he was being protected some, his defense was probably down, but still.
Also, I have no recollection of him being on most of these teams. He signed with the Pirates as a FA? What?
In retrospect, the 2001 option probably made sense from the standpoint of getting him on a one-year deal. At the time, I wasn’t quite as savvy about stuff like that. You know, like certain other people are now.
I have no sense of what 8 million dollars got you in the 2001 market. It seems like a lot of money for the time but I don’t really know.
that jeter contract is pretty disgusting
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 17, 2008 2:05 AM EST up reply actions
It’s not my intention to annoy anyone. I said that upthread a couple of times. Nor is this is any way gratifying to me. I asked a question and was shouted down in a frankly anti-social manner.
I’ve spent a lot of time in bars, but I don’t recall ever being called an annoying guy. I’m respectful of other peoples’ opinions and I know when to keep my mouth shut. I’m sorry if I’m annoying you. That isn’t my intention.
I could go back to Baseball Reference and list an amazing amount of stuff about Albert Belle. But he isn’t considered a signature player because he’s such a difficult personality. He didn’t smile.
Albert Belle is most definitely a signature player. Those Indians teams have I’d say at least 4 obvious signature players:
Lofton
Belle
Thome
Omar
And then a bunch more of which there are probably at least two more:
Manny
Sandy
Baerga
Nagy
Hershiser
R. Alomar
Fryman
Jaret
Now, some of those guys are not “true Indians” but they do represent players that are strongly associated with those teams by the general populace.
For a team that never won, I’d say that Indians team has a really high number of players that were and continue to be extremely closely associated with the club. Contrast to, say, the Dodgers of the ’90s. The Dodgers had one signature player: Piazza. Eric Karros and Nomo lag way behind.
I’d add Denny Martinez to the second list
by millionairesrow on Dec 17, 2008 9:23 AM EST up reply actions
Seriously, I would put Mesa on that second list. Right until that one pitch, I loved the guy. He was still a part of those teams. In 1995 he had an absolutely insane ERA+ of 415. If not for Game Seven of the 1997 WS, he’s an Indians hero.
Charged December 1996, acquitted April 1997.
But, you know, he was acquitted of those charges, but clearly far from innocent overall.
Where there’s the one charge there are who-knows-how-many other incidents, you know.
One charge is a pretty big deal. Accidents of this kind don’t happen.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Don’t they? Duke Lacrosse?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah right what?
You can’t make a blanket statement that everyone ever accused of sexual assault is unequivocally guilty, regardless of legal ruling.
This is not the place for this discussion though.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
But in truth, according to USA Today, well known athletes do better when charged with sexual assault than the population in general.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
I don’t mean this literally, but if you follow these things and have some basic understanding of human nature, you must know what’s going on. Be real.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
I need to be real? Really? You don’t think there are any other cases, ever, where someone has accused a high-profile athlete of sexual assault or a similar charge to try to make a quick buck? And whether or not the athlete or any random guy is truly guilty, he has the stigma attached to him for the rest of his life.
There’s being PC, and then there’s being oblivious.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions
Well, it was proven that he had an unregistered gun in the car, that he went down to the flats to cruise for women, that he was married when doing so, that he got two women to leave with him in his car, and that there was sexual contact.
The only thing that wasn’t proved was that Mesa forced the sexual contact, and there was significant evidence of that, but the jury did not feel that it rose to the level of “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
So yeah, let’s be realistic about it … he is presumed not to be a rapist, but he is also presumed not to be the greatest guy based on the whole set of facts.
Yeah I’m not talking about Mesa specifically, I had actually no recollection of this. I’m just saying in general.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 11:49 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t understand where political correctness fits in. This is law-of-the-land ancient common sense.
If you’re an upstanding person, it’s not that hard to get through life without a sexual assault accusation. Conduct yourself well and avoid underage girls, bar girls, young women on welfare, golddigers, strippers, etc., and this isn’t going to happen to you. You can be an “active” adult and avoid all these traps. The ones who don’t have serious maturity issues, and you know what that means.
These accusations aren’t coming from nowhere.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
I think, to be realistic about it, there are a lot more movies and TV episodes devoted to the subject of men who are innocently on trial for sexual assault. Fear of being accused in that way is part of the zeitgeist, it’s part of the psyche of most any American man in this era — and that’s why you get movies about it.
But in real life, women tend not to want to put themselves out there as rape victims, and prosecutors have very little incentive to charge and indict a celebrity if they don’t find the accuser to be credible and the supporting evidence to be significant. The judge can throw it out if he/she doesn’t think the evidence passes prima facie muster, too.
In the end, the system is set up so that very few criminal cases go to trial without very substantial evidence that the defendant is guilty. If he’s on trial, he’s probably guilty — but in order to be convicted, the standard is much higher. “Reasonable doubt” is a standard for our legal system, but not for our common sense. And even apart from that, not being guilty of a crime isn’t the same thing as not being guilty of being a sleazy creep.
avoid underage girls, bar girls, young women on welfare, golddigers, strippers, etc.,
and
The ones who ……… have serious maturity issues
Dude if I’d have followed your advice I’d have eliminated 95% of my dating pool! You must lead a very dull life jhon.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
On the contrary, in between postings on LGT I’ve had some interesting experiences—year after year, month by month—but I’m going to be protective of further allusions. There’s a reason that I’m not jaded about this business. I’ll leave it at that.
And as it turns out, I’ve got a date tonight. I don’t even have to pay her! Can you believe that?!
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Conduct yourself well and avoid underage girls, bar girls, young women on welfare, golddigers, strippers, etc., and this isn’t going to happen to you.
Because everyone is a perfect upstanding citizen and certainly couldn’t make one of these mistakes without being a rapist.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 11:50 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think anyone is claiming this was a one-time thing for Mesa. For him, as with many if not most professional athletes, this is the lifestyle.
Again, I’m not defending Mesa. I’m more offended by the seemingly guilty-till-proven-innocent mentality. Obviously I’m not naive enough to think that there aren’t a ton of athletes who are totally sleazy. Anyway, I don’t really want to go much further with this on here, we’re probably crossing the line or at least very close. I’d be happy to discuss over e-mail.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 19, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions
This is similar to the classic First Amendment confusion.
Guilty until proven innocent is a concept that applies only to our courts. Journalists tend to observe it, but only within common sense limits.
It is not a concept that applies to the whole society or to all of our judgments. If it did, we’d be idiots.
I hope you meant innocent until proven guilty.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 19, 2008 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Thought so, but the way this discussion has gone, I couldn’t be too sure.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
I guess it depends. Jay’s emphasis on guilty of a crime is important. I’ve been liberally stressing guilt—such as Mesa’s rather obvious guilt—but it’s not necessarily criminal guilt.
There’s being guilty of being a jackass—which people who run into the law most likely are—and then there’s criminal, punishable guilt. In one instance you’re likely to be deservedly shunned, in the other you might go to jail and lose all your rights. Because of the harshness penalty involved, the qualifications of guilt are set so high.
I mean, Mesa really got away with one there.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
I do but I also have started working on my law degree so my take is fairly complicated. Basically, when I am part of an arrest I know the person is guilty. At the same time, I recognize that the person is not yet actually “guilty.” Does that make any sense?
My reaction to hearing about an arrest or apprehension is the same as most people’s. I think “they got the guy.” Do you know anyone who hears about an arrest and thinks “They got the suspect, I sure can’t wait to hear what the courts say?”
It doesn’t have to be that complicated.
The presumption of innocence is simply a legal construction to establish the roles of the parties and the burden of proof in a criminal proceeding.
The state has to prove to the tribunal that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If that cannot be done, the defendant is acquitted, not necessarily because we don’t think the defendant did something, but because we do not think the evidence was sufficient to justify punishing that person for committing the crime.
That the person was not found to be legally culpable for the crime they were charged with does not necessarily mean that we, as members of society cannot find him to be morally culpable as a less than desirable person.
Also, just because the trier of fact will be bound to the presumption of innocence in dealing with the matter does not mean that others, law enforcement officers in particular, cannot feel that they’ve charged a person who was guilty of a crime. In fact, if the officer making the charge did not feel that strongly, he or she should probably not make the charge in the first place.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
Geez, doesn’t the fact – the fact – that literally hundres of folks have been released from prison because the DNA evidence proved that they where innocent give any of you folks pause? It tells me that not only are some of those who are arrested innocent but some of the convicted are too.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Right, and further, the cops can be sooooo sure that they got the right guy. Everything in their gut tells them it was the right guy. Heck, maybe some basic evidence supports that conclusion. But that doesn’t make it so, and the truth, as proved by DNA evidence, can be very tough to swallow.
DNA is kind of like the advanced stats of baseball. It can tell you so much more than just what you think is true.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 24, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
We’ve gone from why there is a presumption of innocence, and law enforcement needing probable cause to believe a crime has been committed to charge someone with a crime to the fact that the system makes mistakes.
Next maybe we can discuss how the people wrongfully imprisoned are getting too much in their malicious prosecution, false imprisonment law suits and that we need tort reform.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 24, 2008 12:51 PM EST up reply actions
So much for innocent until proven guilty. yikes.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 18, 2008 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
More to the point, it may be what keeps him off the list of signature players from that era.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
Is this the South in the 1960’s?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 19, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Dude, enough. Check your e-mail.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 19, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
Now wait a sec, “accused” is not the same thing as arrested, charged, indicted and successfully brought to trial. Anybody can just be “accused.”
Just about a year ago, I had a woman accost me over a parking spot, and about 30 seconds into it, she decided to accuse me of hurling the N-word at her. One of the most disgusting moments of my life, by the way. That’s the merit of an accusation.
But even if that were an actual crime, there’s no way I would have been charged, arraigned, indicted, brought to trial.
Yikes. Well, some people are just plain nuts, but usually doesn’t take long for it to show. It would take an uncommonly determined level of crazy to carry on a concocted accusation for the duration of a trail. It’s hard to imagine someone doing such a thing, but I guess it’s possible.
Turk, I guess we’re just in different emotional places with regard to this subject. You’re probably right that it’s best to drop it. I’m having no fun at all debating this.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Bottom line is that no prosecutor wants to put him/herself in that situation, hurting the win-loss record and wasting his/her time, the judge’s time, everyone else in the office … if they bring the case, it’s generally pretty strong.
I’ll go ahead and disagree pretty strongly. In my experience, lots of stuff goes in to a prosecutor’s decision to charge someone. Regardless of the merit, the case is almost certain to end in some sort of plea and come out as a “win” for the prosecutor. So the win-loss record and the time-wasting factors are pretty low.
You’re talking about where it gets pled out to something very minor. That’s still not the situation we’ve been talking about here.
No what we’re talking about is a high-profile allegation that was in the PD every day. An ADA would hafta be professionally suicidal to not prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
It’s scary isn’t it? Around here we respect odds, and you and I both know what the odds say about accusations.
But yeah, on a case-by-case basis a healthy dose of skepticism and pursuit of the facts leading to the truth is essential. I’ve taken it for granted that we all understand that.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Someone accused is more likely to be guilty than someone not accused, but that’s trivial. To say “almost certainly guilty” is hyperbolic.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 20, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions
I really don’t want to get into this, but no, jhon’s statement was pretty extreme. Jay’s point about the difference between being accused and being charged, arraigned, etc. is an important one. Plus I think it’s also naive to think that the justice system is so perfect that almost entirely guilty people are ever charged, in general.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 20, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
It’s equally naive to think that everyone who’s convicted is guilty. Check out The Innocence Project.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I agree, for sure. I never said anything remotely contradictory. Sounds like you’re contradicting yourself a bit though? You accused DaytonDogg of being naive and self-righteous for challenging jhon’s statement that being accused meant you were almost certainly guilty…
by Logodaedalus on Dec 20, 2008 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry if I wasn’t clear. No, what I’m saying is that jhon’s stance is both naive and self-righteous. I think jhon’s follow on post below about his vast experience with dorm-crime speaks volumes.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Oh, okay. I agree with you then — looked like you were responding to DaytonDogg, which made it appear that you were saying something exactly the opposite of what you meant.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 21, 2008 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
I’ve worked for the Ohio Innocence Project last year. And that’s largely where my perspective on this is coming from. I have worked with Barry Scheck that started The Innocence Project that Chuck linked above.
While a bit of a douchebag, he has really opened up a lot of people’s eyes on how much we have failed to give due process and how concepts such as innocent until proven guilty has been pushed aside. The mistakes made by DA’s, cops, defense lawyers, judges, lab techs, detectives, and everyone else that deals with major crimes, especially those involving DNA evidence, is outrageous.
Yes, it was extreme, maybe over the top. God forbid that I ever get falsely accused of something.
I take a punishing attitude toward crime and I think it’s important to take crime seriously, especially underrated and underreported crimes.
The reports and stats that I’ve seen aren’t any good, and there might not be anyway around that because of the nature of the crime and of irregularities in crime reporting and investigation. I’m speaking on experience and my common sense, having seen this kind of thing take place in dormitory settings and known both victims and perpetrators. It takes an awful lot of courage to stand up for the accused, and believe me, I would if and when I had reasons and a kind of trust with that individual.
In most cases, even when the accused is a popular fellow or a sports hero, there will be very few who remain in their corner, because guilt is apparent.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 20, 2008 6:31 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’m being heavy-handed (and self-righteous), but I’m not kidding.
But I’m sorry I got into this, and I don’t have the stomach to follow through.
Jose Mesa is a creep. That’s my point. Mesa sucks. I have no fondness for him alone among the mid-90s Indians.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Fair enough. This was obviously something that was much more personal to you or me than either of us realized. I did not mean to offend you. I just am a little oversensitive to the other side of things, having dealt with the falsely accused and seeing the inner-workings of a disgustingly broken criminal “justice” system.
It’s not my intention to annoy anyone. I said that upthread a couple of times. Nor is this is any way gratifying to me
And yet you are annoying people. And you are having to be told, like, eight times. Is that the person you want to be?
I asked a question and was shouted down in a frankly anti-social manner.
Oh, yes, your perception of the situation is right, everyone else’s is wrong.
I’ve spent a lot of time in bars, but I don’t recall ever being called an annoying guy.
I completely believe you on this. I look forward to being in a bar with you. But it may be that you conduct yourself differently online than you do in person, or that your words in plain text are suffering for the lack of your charming in-person presentation. You wouldn’t be the first person to suffer from these afflictions.
It’s a dick move to question Kenny Lofton’s performance with the Indians? I don’t even hate the guy.
Of course players decline. Lofton’s post-Cleveland career suggests some sort of resurgence. What arrested this inevitable decline? Do you remember seeing Lofton play in Cleveland in 2001?
I don’t recall using the phrase “free pass.” I said Kenny is treated differently today than Manny, Albert, Thome or Roberto Alomar. And I asked why. For which I was told I was ruining the celebration. For which I am told to shut the hell up. That’s some righteous discourse right there.
I was thinking about the decline of a player. In my experience, it’s poignant. It makes me love a great player more to see him at the end of his career. There’s nobility from Grover Cleveland Alexander to Willie Stargell to Travis Fryman to Greg Maddox, seeing these guys play as their youth fades. I would never get aggravated at a player for having declining skills.
Okay. That makes sense. Jay says Lofton is “a signature player,” and I wondered why he is considered such. And I agree with your last paragraph.
Alomar for not running out the double-play ball he hit off Moyer in the decisive ALDS game in 2001.
He’s a signature player because he was an all-star 6 times, at a marquee position, through what is obviously the best periods of Indians baseball since, like, the 1940s.
I was going to say, (a) five straight stolen base titles, (b) leadoff hitter and Gold Glove center fielder on the first Indians pennant-winning team in 40 years.
It doesn’t hurt that he’s the one player on those teams that so clearly draws a parallel to the movie that 98% of the world associates directly with the Indians.
Lofton is eerily similar to Willie Hayes, and it’s not just skin color. All speed, no power, dynamic defenders. Huge smiles.
Obviously, Lofton could hit a lot better but I’d wager there are many, many people who don’t recognize the chronology and think Hayes was based on K-Love.
I’d wager there are many, many people who don’t recognize the chronology and think Hayes was based on K-Love
I used to think this until I realized Major League came out in ’89.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
hand raised. Another great LGT thread. Not quite up to the Kerry Wood thread, but I love the chippiness.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
its gonna be a godd year
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 17, 2008 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
All of the above
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
A reference to a vintage GFP joke typo?
by Logodaedalus on Dec 18, 2008 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Doesn’t vintage GFP mean that it’s the PBR talking typing?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Dec 18, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
Gootz opening day last year was so dominant
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 19, 2008 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
Per the PD via NY Post, the original story doesn’t hold water
http://www.nypost.com/seven/12162008/sports/yankees/lofton_denies_cc_talk_144396.htm
by millionairesrow on Dec 21, 2008 9:09 AM EST reply actions
… and that about wraps up a perfect thread.
by Jay on Dec 21, 2008 6:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I say Lofton is guilty of making the comments until he’s proven innocent.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on Dec 22, 2008 10:36 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
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