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Like we needed another reason to love that guy.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Dec 15, 2008 1:32 PM EST
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You have to love Kenny Lofton. Too bad we have Dellucci wasting space in the outfiled right now. Otherwise I’d advocate Lofton be given a contract just on principal alone.
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 15, 2008 1:33 PM EST
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I hate to hear that name Dellucci is there anyway we can take up a donation to get rid of him.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on
Dec 15, 2008 3:02 PM EST
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Fun with punctuation:
-“I hate to hear that name, Dellucci. Is there any way we can take up a donation to get rid of him?”
-“I hate to hear that. Name Dellucci! Is there any way we can? Take up a donation to get rid of him!”
-“I hate to hear. That name? ‘Dellucci’. Is there any way we can take up a donation to get rid of him?”
-“I hate to hear that ‘Name Dellucci’ is there. Anyway, we can take up a donation to get rid of him.”
/assface
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 15, 2008 6:42 PM EST
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How many minutes of your life were wasted thinking up that comment?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on
Dec 15, 2008 9:21 PM EST
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You and I both read it. KnowwhatImean?
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 15, 2008 9:55 PM EST
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Good point.
I was just kidding, of course.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on
Dec 15, 2008 10:29 PM EST
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Okay, I saw borderline profanity and borderline personal attack, so I went for the delete button.
Still have little idea what anyone is talking about here, but I think society will be well served if we all move on.
by Jay on
Dec 16, 2008 1:23 AM EST
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I imagine his advice was based on professional considerations and not the unquenchable, burning hatred I feel in my heart, but still… you tell ’em, Kenny.
by still ill on
Dec 15, 2008 1:37 PM EST
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The Kenny Lofton bobble head on my desk approves of this
by Fios on
Dec 15, 2008 1:59 PM EST
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Maybe if your Kenny Lofton bobblehead had talked to my CC Sabathia “Disco” Bobblehead, this whole mess could have been avoided.
by woodsmeister on
Dec 15, 2008 4:57 PM EST
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I still have my CC disco bobblehead. My wife asked me if I wanted to throw it out since he’s a Yankee, but I said no way.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on
Dec 15, 2008 5:41 PM EST
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My girlfriend made a similar comment about my Cy Cy Bobble and my autographed baseball. Although, she has a point with the baseball. Its signed by CC and Lee (and Sowers, unfortunately). I might be selling high on that one right now, but I still doubt I’ll do it.
by Fundamentals on
Dec 15, 2008 6:38 PM EST
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I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but the economy is kinda, well, tanking right now, and the prices for goods (especially non-essentials) and what people are willing or can afford to pay are decreasing. Bought gas lately? Anyway my suggestion to you would be: SELL! SELL! SELL! OH MY GOD, HOW ARE WE GOING TO GET THROUGH THIS! SELL! But maybe I’m over-reacting.
I’d keep the bobblehead though. Those things can cure depression with their constant positive affirmation.
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 15, 2008 6:55 PM EST
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Or if you hold on to it until Sowers wins the Cy Young next season, think what it’ll be worth!
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 15, 2008 7:13 PM EST
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I was going to make a comment but then I realized I would have bet everything in my life on Cliff Lee not winning the Cy this past year, so …
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 15, 2008 7:33 PM EST
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Yeah, how the hell did he do that?
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 15, 2008 7:36 PM EST
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I have the Indians blanket with Grady, Hafner and CC. This morning it became the dog’s blanket. I told the pup she could lay on CC and sometimes Hafner. However no laying on Grady. Hopefully she’ll listen.
by cclemens31 on
Dec 15, 2008 7:00 PM EST
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She won’t listen, because (a) the ladies all love Grady and (b) she’s a dog.
by FredOx on
Dec 16, 2008 9:02 AM EST
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does it need to be re-stated that Kenny Lofton is a true Indian
by APV on
Dec 15, 2008 3:05 PM EST
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You mean True Indian™, I assume?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 15, 2008 3:30 PM EST
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and Tom Mastny is a True Indonesian
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 15, 2008 6:44 PM EST
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Doesn’t it suck that the Pirates signed up a bunch of True Indians?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 15, 2008 7:10 PM EST
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Lofton has been my favorite player ever since I can remember. Playing that one season for the Yankees was emotionally traumatizing, but 2007 made up for all of that. Sizemore may be on the precipice of becoming my favorite player, but Kenny will always be #1 somewhere in my heart. Nice to see him bad mouthing the Empire.
by Chief Wahoo on
Dec 15, 2008 3:09 PM EST
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The 2007 postseason solidified my affection for Kenny. He really stepped up
by Roger Dorn on
Dec 15, 2008 3:15 PM EST
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He is my favorite Indian ever, probably forever.
by danvail on
Dec 15, 2008 4:01 PM EST
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How quickly they forget Brook Jacoby.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on
Dec 15, 2008 7:45 PM EST
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I was 9 the last time Jacoby donned a Tribe uni, and honestly if there was one Indian to put on a mantle from that era it’s Cory Snyder.
Seeing as how he holds the title of my favorite human ever, he’s ineligible to receive the favorite Indian award.
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 7:21 AM EST
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I think Adam’s post was sarc. Just a little bit.
Cory Snyder is your favorite human ever, huh? My favorites from that era have to be Brett Butler and Joe Carter.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Dec 16, 2008 12:16 PM EST
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I’m failing to grasp how someone could sarcastically mention Brook Jacoby as a favorite Indian candidate. If I was ten years older, he’d certainly be up there. I mean, mustache. C’mon.
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 12:33 PM EST
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Actually, I liked Jacoby a lot, too. Master of the solo HR.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Dec 16, 2008 1:07 PM EST
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Also, Rich Yett.
I just wanted to say that. Rich Yett.
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 1:10 PM EST
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OPS+ of 75 at his peak. Most similar (by age) to Frank Croucher. Now that’s a Catcher’s name.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 16, 2008 1:51 PM EST
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Would a battery of Croucher and Plunk win some sort of name-appropriateness award?
by FredOx on
Dec 16, 2008 3:35 PM EST
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A grade school classmate’s mother’s friend dated Chris Bando.
Less than 5 degrees of separation, suckas!
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on
Dec 17, 2008 10:06 AM EST
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Or Pat Tabler!
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on
Dec 17, 2008 4:20 PM EST
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Lofton: swing for the fences, terrible plate discipline, hit home run followed by 30 straight popups, jaking it in the outfield, whining about every called strike. 2001: OPS+ of 89. .322 OBP.
How come Kenny rather than Albert or Manny?
by odradek on
Dec 15, 2008 9:17 PM EST
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Wow, talk about hand-picking a stat line. .299/.372/.423, 107 OPS+ on his career. Kenny has played parts of ten seasons in Cleveland and you picked the one in which he didn’t post an OPS+ of over 100 or an OBP over .360. The man was rightfully deified when he was here.
by fwembt on
Dec 15, 2008 9:49 PM EST
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Toward the end of his Cleveland tenure Kenny was stuck with an upper-cut swing. He played a different sort of game than he did during 1993 and 1994, when he was a great player. Albert was a career OPS+ 143. Manny career OPS+ 155.
Sometimes I think Rico Carty is my favorite Indian. He’s not the best Indian, but I like his attitude. Kenny seems to get points for his attitude.
by odradek on
Dec 15, 2008 10:33 PM EST
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This whole line of discussion is worthless. Nobody was comparing Lofton to anyone else anyway, but if you were going to, you certainly wouldn’t use OPS+, which gives no credit for the defense provided by a Gold Glove center fielder — not to mention five straight SB titles.
by Jay on
Dec 15, 2008 10:35 PM EST
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I am comparing Lofton to Belle and Ramirez. I am baffled by all the Lofton love.
And we’re using Gold Glove awards as an indication of his value?
by odradek on
Dec 15, 2008 10:47 PM EST
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My point is that I think his ability to hit is sometimes devalued by comments that mention only his defense and stolen bases. He was quite capable of driving a ball and getting on base. He’s 22nd all-time on the Indians in OBP, 28th in batting average, 41st in slugging, 26th in OPS, 11th in walks, 12th in total bases, 11th in doubles, 13th in triples and 32nd in HR. His RC number is actually higher than Manny’s.
The point is that he was hardly some one trick pony who was essentially Willie Mays Hayes. Lofton was a very, very good player for the Indians. I agree with Jay though, isn’t “favorite” more a product of emotion than stats? I grew up loving Cory Snyder, God knows it wasn’t because he was good.
by fwembt on
Dec 15, 2008 10:50 PM EST
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I agree with you on the emotions. As I said about Rico Carty. And Lofton was an awesome player in the early to mid 1990s. But he was pretty crummy in 2001, and that’s hard to overlook. By the end of his Indians tenure he was, to me, neither good nor likable.
I know Albert Belle isn’t a lovable guy, and Manny “abandoned” Cleveland for RSN, but damn if I don’t have fond memories of seeing pitchers try to get fastballs past the two of them.
by odradek on
Dec 15, 2008 10:57 PM EST
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First it was Sandy. Then it was Baerga, Belle and Nagy. When Lofton emerged the next year, that was the turning point. You could just tell we were getting good.
Then there were good signs from Whitten and Sorrento, and you kept hearing about how good Reggie Jefferson, Wayne Kirby, and Mark Lewis were going to be. Oh, and Thome.
Some stuck and some didn’t.
And then Manny showed, we added veterans, and we were totally dominant.
It still amazes me that we had Lofton, Belle, and Ramirez in one OF all at one time.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 16, 2008 1:24 AM EST
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And all in their primes. I mean, Manny got even better after Belle left, but he was pretty damned good even before.
by Jay on
Dec 16, 2008 2:33 AM EST
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And that we still never won a WS. God, I still shudder thinking about that sometimes.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 16, 2008 10:46 AM EST
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That’s the most negative way of looking back at it. The 90s were a feast.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 16, 2008 11:38 AM EST
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Didn’t say I didn’t enjoy them, but you’re not human if you don’t have at least a small twinge of disappointment that one of those teams never sealed the deal.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 16, 2008 12:02 PM EST
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But to focus on that over the joys of watching Kenny steal home is just… communist. There, I said it.
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 12:34 PM EST
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Agreed. having a “small twinge” of disappointment is not the same as focusing. The play where Kenny stole home from second in the 1995 ALDS is my all-time favorite Indians play.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 16, 2008 2:47 PM EST
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ALCS, right? With the Big Unit on the mound?
by macasson on
Dec 16, 2008 5:37 PM EST
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Yeah, my bad. The look on Unit’s face was priceless. He was dogging it to cover home and was stunned to see the catcher (Wilson?) actually throw him the ball when Lofton was trying to score.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 16, 2008 8:25 PM EST
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Not right now, no, but I’m in a sentimental mood. I just did all of my Christmas shopping online (yes, I am at work, too). I’d brag about some of the Tribe related gifts I just purchased, but my brother might read this. It’s a damned cool gift though, I swear.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 16, 2008 12:41 PM EST
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Nice! I sort of don’t have anyone to buy for this year but my folks. It’s kinda weird.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 16, 2008 2:45 PM EST
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The problem is you seem to be making the assumption that people should choose their favorites based on an objective measure of their talent. There’s no reason to make that assumption. My favorite player could be Alex Cole, just because I liked his glasses, if I wanted it to be (it’s not).
by APV on
Dec 15, 2008 10:56 PM EST
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I like Alex Cole. I like Miguel Dilone too. I’m not saying people should choose their players based on objective measures of their talent. Everyone is entitled to their own subjective, personal favorite. I’m just saying mine isn’t Kenny Lofton, and it’s mostly because of 2000 and 2001.
by odradek on
Dec 15, 2008 11:05 PM EST
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I’ll bet approximately 95% of Indians fans smile when they hear the name Alex Cole. Strictly because of those frames.
by supermarioelia on
Dec 15, 2008 11:17 PM EST
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He got busted for conspiracy to distro heroin. Seriously.
by afh4 on
Dec 16, 2008 12:08 AM EST
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ouch. now wonder the Indians attempt at “speed ball” was shortlived in ’91.
by APV on
Dec 16, 2008 12:11 AM EST
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Mario – what’s this I read? You’ve got a girlfriend? Are you outta yer mind? You play it right son and you’ll be doin’ 23 yo ER nurses two at a time for the rest of your natural life! Med school girlfriends have a shelf life of less than five years after which they become parasitic ex-wifes. For the love of Hippocrates – don’t do it boy!
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 16, 2008 12:13 AM EST
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Nice to see you, Chuck, but please … we’re in mixed company here.
by Jay on
Dec 16, 2008 12:26 AM EST
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Just tryin’ to save the young man from himself.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 16, 2008 12:33 AM EST
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lol
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 16, 2008 1:03 AM EST
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Funny, I was always trying to date a girl in med school. Her, not me.
by Jay on
Dec 16, 2008 1:05 AM EST
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Don’t worry, we already broke up.
But if anyone wonders to themselves what world of medicine Chuck is talking about, you have to read the book House of God. Really puts hospitals in the 70s into a strange, strange light.
by supermarioelia on
Dec 16, 2008 8:49 AM EST
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I absolutely smile every time I hear that name.
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 7:24 AM EST
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You are baffled that Indians fans love their All Star CF from the great 90s teams?
by Roger Dorn on
Dec 15, 2008 11:34 PM EST
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The same Rico Carty who always played with his wallet in his back pocket because he didn’t trust his teammates?
by woodsmeister on
Dec 16, 2008 12:12 PM EST
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You got it. There’s my favorite Indian.
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 1:40 PM EST
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Did Kenny run over your dog? Why does it need to be a debate? He’s my favorite player, I don’t see a need to quantify that
by Fios on
Dec 15, 2008 10:17 PM EST
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No debate. He’s your favorite player. Not mine. His 2000 and 2001 soured me.
by odradek on
Dec 15, 2008 10:22 PM EST
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I don’t see why. 2000 and 2001 he was the CF for one of the best fielding teams I know of. Many thought it was the end of a spectacular and sometimes great career for Kenny. Then, he baffled everyone by playing the next SIX seasons with big time contributions to contending teams. Even with this extended career in his “down” years, he STILL has an OBP over .370 in his career and probably the best base stealer in his era.
by DaytonDogg on
Dec 15, 2008 11:57 PM EST
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It also doesn’t seem to matter that Belle was a total head-case and Manny was well…Manny. I loved (love) Lofton because he was everything I wanted to be as a baseball player. I’ll be the first to admit I never had any potential to hit for much power. But I prided myself on my ability to make contact, run the bases, and play defense. Was there a better player – from a die-hard Tribe fan’s point of view – to idolize? I think not. Well…maybe, just maybe, Willie Mays Hayes.
by Chief Wahoo on
Dec 16, 2008 3:56 AM EST
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I agree with the idealized version of Lofton—a dynamic offensive force, a brilliant defender—and acknowledge that he could have been a great player like Henderson and Raines. But he began to see himself as a power hitter and started swinging for the fences, and his offense suffered. His self-image didn’t correspond with his talents. He didn’t seem to take good routes on balls but was typically able to outrun the ball. As he got older his defensive limitations became more apparent. An odd guy. He had only 23 and 21 doubles in 2000 and 2001, and only once attained double figures in triples (13 in 1995) with the Indians.
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 3:24 PM EST
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I actually agree with just about everything you wrote there.
What I disagree with is, why are you even bringing this up?
Who nominated Lofton for the Hall of Fame?
Who said he was better than some other guy?
He was a signature player for some of the best years in franchise history. Why beat up on him for no reason?
by Jay on
Dec 16, 2008 6:10 PM EST
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Agree, all we’re doing here is raising a glass to an old fan favorite – any attempt to objectively quantify the reasons for not doing so are as out of place as telling someone their dad smells funny during his 75th birthday party.
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 6:45 PM EST
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I think me and danvail are on the same page here.
by Chief Wahoo on
Dec 16, 2008 11:59 PM EST
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Is this supposed to be the Yeah Kenny You’re Great!!! thread? And all others shut your traps?
I’m bringing it up because I find it interesting. Sorry if I’m disagreeing with everybody, but that’s what I think. Such groupthink that can brook no alternate opinions! We are all entitled to our opinions, and in a forum, everyone should be permitted to communicate (with all due respect) an opinion. I was trying to engage a discussion on the perceived merits of KL.
I’d raise a glass to him. I respect your opinions.
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 8:33 PM EST
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Dude … did you even read the story that this whole thread is about? Go up there, click on the link and read it.
Yes, the purpose of this thread is to celebrate Lofton and his True Indianness. Responding with a dumb list of old complaints, and throwing up his worst season of stats, was just a dick move.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you were just oblivious to the story that is linked above, which is the whole reason we are taking a a moment to celebrate the guy.
by Jay on
Dec 16, 2008 8:43 PM EST
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Of course I read it. And then I read all the ensuing paeans to Lofton. And I thought, Why does everyone have such a great affection for Lofton?
Maybe I’m the only Indians fan who felt let down by him, disappointed. Maybe I’m the only one who thinks it’s odd how he gets a pass. And odd how one is not even permitted to question, let alone criticize, his reputation. Robbie Alomar gets challenged, but then he’s not very likable.
If we want to talk about True Indians, I nominate Miguel Dilone, or Brook Jacoby even.
Sorry to piss on your tent. That certainly wasn’t my intention.
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 8:52 PM EST
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Those two guys, combined, played as many seasons in Cleveland as Kenny. You are making even less sense here than you were earlier. The whole purpose of this was for everyone to appreciate one more thing Kenny did for us. The fact that you were disappointed because the guy had the temerity to have a bad year is well established. Stop urinating in our punch bowl.
by fwembt on
Dec 16, 2008 11:06 PM EST
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Andre Thornton, then. How can one be more of a True indian? And it wasn’t one bad year. Why was he traded in 1997?
Step back, please, while I get a chair nearer to the punch bowl.
by odradek on
Dec 17, 2008 1:02 AM EST
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Louis Sockalexis was the only TRUE Indian.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 17, 2008 2:24 PM EST
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If you’re pissing on our tent, doesn’t that make it a Tee-Pee?
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 17, 2008 2:25 PM EST
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I just want to add, I see a story like this and it makes me proud to have a guy that respected our town and played his tail off for us. On the other hand, we have a certain WR playing football in Cleveland collecting his huge paycheck while crying about how the fans aren’t respecting him
This is why Clevelanders love Kenny Lofton and why if you want to complain about Lofton, you probably are going to be in the small minority
by Roger Dorn on
Dec 16, 2008 11:49 PM EST
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Forget the WR, how about that basketball guy?
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 12:18 AM EST
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Yeah, at least when Kenny was wearing a Yankees hat, he was, like, ON the Yankees.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Dec 17, 2008 2:49 AM EST
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would you quit focusing on his worst two years as an Indian. He had like 8 years before that where we was awesome. Not to mention the 8 years after that where he was a extremely useful journeyman for some very good teams.
Anyone know if there is another player who played with more different teams in the post season? (6!)
Does he hold some sort of record for most playoff games without a ring? (95!)
by DaytonDogg on
Dec 16, 2008 7:54 PM EST
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also, he kicked bottom in the 2007 postseason
by Roger Dorn on
Dec 16, 2008 11:39 PM EST
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Here’s some more stuff I find of interest:
Rickey Henderson never hit more than seven triples in a season. His season high in terms of total bases was 285. Tim Raines’ career high TB was 279. Joe Morgan’s was 284.
Kenny Lofton’s career high in total bases was 295 in 1996. That’s pretty impressive.
Rod Carew’s career high was 351. And the greatest Indians’ centerfielder (sorry, Grady and Kenny), Tris Speaker, had a career high of 350 total bases, which I imagine is the Indians’ record.
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 8:57 PM EST
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Kenny Lofton is like the girlfriend you meet at someone’s wedding, and she comes across really sweet and nice, so you get together. Then she moves in with you and everything is looking pretty good. After about a month she loses her job, and starts spending all her days in front of the television doing ketamine and eating pints of Häagen-Dazs rum raisin ice cream. Then she starts stealing your change and buying pints of Remy Martin. You finally manage to get her out of your home, and you have to change the locks on the door. Even then, she comes by drunk late at night and tries to kick down the door.
And whenever you meet your friends or family, they all say, “What happened with Kenny? She was great! I really liked her. You made a big mistake!”
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 9:43 PM EST
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you forgot this line (in between your 2nd and 3rd sentences):
And everything is great. For 8 years the two of you have a great time, lots of great sex, and manage to accumulate a bunch of really great memories
Also, this line at the end:
And so you think, maybe so. And then you run into her at the store one day, you catch up on old times, go back to her place and relive your collective past glory for a nice two months before you both amicably move on.
by APV on
Dec 16, 2008 9:51 PM EST
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Go on, perfesser. Get your own damn story.
The line at the end, properly: You see her one late night at Circle K with a Bosnian mobster wearing gold chains and a track suit, and you think, There but for the grace of god go I.
by odradek on
Dec 16, 2008 10:16 PM EST
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So, when Kenny killed your dog, was it the obvious glee with which he performed the act or the specific technique that he employed that made you despise him so?
by danvail on
Dec 16, 2008 10:46 PM EST
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Lets just give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe his grandma backed the car out at the most inopportune time?
by Chief Wahoo on
Dec 17, 2008 12:07 AM EST
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I had to rec this, because I can imagine this scene so vividly.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 16, 2008 11:10 PM EST
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The gaping hole in this analogy is that baseball players don’t ever last forever, they always decline eventually.
I can’t even imagine what you mean by “free pass.” For what, being really good for several years, but not forever?
You know, I have my own irrational player-hater things — Nagy for example — but if Nagy did something really cool and everyone just wanted to say good things about him, do you know what I’d do? I’d shut the hell up. And I’m one of the sitemods.
Like I said … dick move.
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 12:17 AM EST
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Nagy? NAGY?
hahahaha. That’s got to be pretty irrational.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 12:38 AM EST
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He did a lot of public pouting in order to get a larger contract extension. The extension was unwise and a drag on team payroll, and he was terrible for the entire contract. And then there was all that nibbling … the guy drove me nuts. He also had the BenFran thing going where he was absurdly overrated, because he got run-supported to five straight seasons of 15 wins. Also … “losing pitcher,” 1997 World Series.
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 1:07 AM EST
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I guess I’m a little young/non-native to remember or have any ire about pouting.
Charles Nagy has always just struck me as being incredibly, incredibly boring. That might just be his face though.
Hey everybody, Sauna Pants!

by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 1:12 AM EST
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when a friend of mine asked me, point blank, what nagy’s career ERA was a year ago or so, I said 4.50. it’s 4.52. thats my charles nagy story.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 17, 2008 2:00 AM EST
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when in doubt, assume a guy gave up exactly 1 run every 2 innings.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 18, 2008 4:46 PM EST
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I just always hated Nagy because I was/am an impatient child, and he took forever to get through a game. Plus, kids always want to see their offense.
by danvail on
Dec 17, 2008 7:04 AM EST
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I hated him too, for the record.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 18, 2008 4:46 PM EST
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It’s a dick move to question Kenny Lofton’s performance with the Indians? I don’t even hate the guy.
Of course players decline. Lofton’s post-Cleveland career suggests some sort of resurgence. What arrested this inevitable decline? Do you remember seeing Lofton play in Cleveland in 2001?
I don’t recall using the phrase “free pass.” I said Kenny is treated differently today than Manny, Albert, Thome or Roberto Alomar. And I asked why. For which I was told I was ruining the celebration. For which I am told to shut the hell up. That’s some righteous discourse right there.
by odradek on
Dec 17, 2008 1:19 AM EST
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Kenny left the Indians because the Indians didn’t want him. In comparison:
-Thome left for tons of money after saying he wouldn’t.
-Manny left for tons of money to hated rival.
-Robbie Alomar isn’t hated by anyone that I’ve ever heard. But if he is, it’s because he was aloof and once spit in a dude’s face.
-Albert left for tons of money and was clearly a gigantic ass. That’s why he’s hated.
Isn’t it clear why Kenny isn’t grouped with those players? Lofton kept coming back to the Indians after they tried to get rid of him for chrissakes.
Literally the only bad memory anyone has of Kenny is of him going into a decline while in Cleveland. He did everything else right. All the other guys have created quite a few bad memories that are unique to them, not generic to old baseball players.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 1:26 AM EST
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Um, I don’t hate Belle. He represents the 95 Indians to me. It was completely in his character to leave for more money. We all knew he was a jerk too, but don’t pretend seeing him at the plate, staring down a pitcher, while wearing a tribe uni didn’t make you feel invincible.
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 17, 2008 7:55 AM EST
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I don’t either. I adore Belle. But I understand why my mother would hate Belle.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 9:52 AM EST
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Your Mom hated the 95 Indians?
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 17, 2008 10:19 AM EST
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My Mom doesn’t know anything about the Indians of ’95. But she would hate him if she knew how violent he was.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 10:56 AM EST
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You try to run down one group of trick-or-treaters and you’re branded for life.
That fan he beaned in the stands deserved what he got. The photographer he beaned didn’t.
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 17, 2008 11:24 AM EST
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beaning the fan in the stands was awesome and evidence that, if properly motivated, Belle had a fantastic outfield arm
by APV on
Dec 17, 2008 11:26 AM EST
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And Accurate too!
There was an interview with the “fan”, a fine mulleted fellow, on WUAB the same day of the incident in 91 where he lifted up his half-shirt to show a round red welt in the dead center of his chest.
When he threw the ball at the SI photographer in 96 he managed to hit the inside of the lens hood which required him threading the ball though a ring with a roughly 9 inch diameter.
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 17, 2008 11:44 AM EST
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Hard to argue with Belle’s focus. Probably a little too focused. I wonder what his daily dose of greenies was…
by APV on
Dec 17, 2008 11:47 AM EST
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Again, I love the guy. I do find him a bit scary but overall, he’s probably my #2 Indian, behind Robbie (who was, to me at age 14, Grady at 2nd).
But you aren’t going to win any points with my Mom that way.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 11:53 AM EST
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Belle will always be the player I most associate with the emergence of the Indians…and as such, will always make my top 5 favorite players. More generally, the trio of Belle, Baerga and Lofton are for me indelibly connected with that era.
Roberto Alomar was probably the player I most enjoyed watching in a Tribe uni.
David Justice was a guy I really enjoyed watching.
Thome was never my favorite, but the person I most associate with HRs into the mezzanine section of RF.
Manny was the idiot savant of the bunch who, I continue to believe, misses his days in Cleveland when he could actually hide in a lineup with guys like Thome and Belle and Alomar.
Omar is Omar.
What’s striking is I have very few really fond memories of our pitchers from that era. It’s hard to remember when Nagy was good because his demise was so drawn out. I loved watching El Presidente. I can’t for the life of me remember a single regular season game Hershiser pitched, but can’t think of the ’95 and ’97 playoffs without him. In contrast, the current era of Indians are dominated by pitchers for me. CC and Fausto and Lee and even Westbrook.
by APV on
Dec 17, 2008 10:27 AM EST
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I agree with pretty much everything here. Belle, baerga and Lofton WERE the 90’s Indians. Though I don’t remember Alomar too much as for some reason like 1999-2004 are a blur for me in terms of Indians ball. Also agree about the pitchers. Maybe it’s just because there were no real standouts. But I agree with you on this era: CC, Fausto, Lee, even Westbrook will always stand out to me. The only position players that reach “Belle, baerga, Lofton” territory for me are Vic and Grady. Maybe Jhonny, and maybe Asdrubal at some point.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 17, 2008 11:07 AM EST
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I don’t necessarily agree about this current crop of Indians. I think Sabathia (and to a lesser degree, Westbrook) will be forever associated with the “rebuilding Indians” oh 2001-2007. He only went to the playoffs once and didn’t pitch well.
The “Youth Movement Indians” that’s going to be associated with the ALCS of ’07 and the playoff run of ’05 is going to be Grady, JP, and Fausto (despite Fausto not being there in 2005). This is going to be especially true once the Tribe makes the playoffs a couple more times with those guys at the helm.
I think Lee is going to exist as a weird Nowhere Man.
And I think, with two more good seasons, Victor is going to be the symbol of Indians baseball from 2000-2010. Grady will share that mantle from ‘05-’10 and then clearly represent the Indians from ‘10 until he leaves. I think there’s a decent chance Grady ends up being “Mr. Tribe.”
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 11:58 AM EST
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i fully expect the indians to offer to put a statue outside the stadium of grady and for him to humbly insist they don’t.
by Brick. on
Dec 17, 2008 12:00 PM EST
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Consider this: If the Indians can lock up Grady and he stays healthy then Grady will have played 14 full seasons as an Indian by the time he’s 35. That seems like a lot.
His most similar batters are (in order) Barry Bonds, Jack Clark, and Duke Snider. If Clark had been a CF he’d be a hall of famer. The other two already are.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 12:05 PM EST
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nitpick alert.
barry not a hall of famer, yet, but his number obviously are there. unless you meant bobby.
by Brick. on
Dec 17, 2008 12:59 PM EST
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actually, is bobby a hall of famer? i don’t even know.
by Brick. on
Dec 17, 2008 1:01 PM EST
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I don’t think he is. But, you know what I meant re: Barry.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 1:14 PM EST
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yeah, i know. i was actually curious if the comp was bobby.
by Brick. on
Dec 17, 2008 1:20 PM EST
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Sorry, obviously pitched in the playoffs twice for the Indians, in ’01 as well. That seems like a very long time ago.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 12:01 PM EST
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This makes sense, but I do think people will remember Lee.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 17, 2008 1:45 PM EST
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I never liked Justice. He was too associated with the downfall of my beloved/“invincible” ’95 Indians. Game 6 solo shot… he hurted me.
by danvail on
Dec 18, 2008 8:30 AM EST
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My love of Justice comes almost entirely from the ’97 season, in which Justice just seemed invincible at the plate (.329/.418/.596). It was far and away his career best season, and it came for us.
by APV on
Dec 18, 2008 8:42 AM EST
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I always remember that 98 ALDS, which he seemed to win for us single-handedly — not just slugging 750, but he made a few key plays in the field, too.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 9:08 AM EST
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God my memory is just so awful I just can’t remember single-game or series events like this from before 2005, and even then it’s hazy.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 10:43 AM EST
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Yeah for me it comes down to the emotions that were formed during the events transcending the specific memories. That initial pre-teen rage that Justice invoked in ‘95 just tainted all his accomplishments in Cleveland for me. It felt wrong to me to just forget what he did to what was in my young mind a homegrown team. The joy of having a team that we built from the ground up (which is of course vastly oversimplified) finally come up and just dominate everyone else made me so proud to be an Indians fan and a Cleveland fan. Rooting for this acquisition that just two years earlier put the nail in our WS coffin… made me feel dirty. Of course, if we actually won in ’97, I think I’d have gotten over it.
by danvail on
Dec 18, 2008 12:09 PM EST
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See, us older folk didn’t have that kind of formative experience. Our formative experience was, the Indians were terrible for the first 20 years we were aware of baseball.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 2:45 PM EST
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Signing Horace Speed for the 1978 season filled me with pre-teen rage.
by FredOx on
Dec 18, 2008 4:30 PM EST
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I think this is why Clevelanders that grew up in the 70s had it the worst. The best you guys got was solid football and basketball in the 80s that ended up crushing souls.
Born in the 80s/growing up in the 90s generation has had a lot of very good baseball for the last almost 15 years and now LeBron.
by danvail on
Dec 19, 2008 11:02 AM EST
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Thank you for reminding me that my life has been a complete sports loss. Oh where have you gone, Ted Uhlaender?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on
Dec 19, 2008 3:11 PM EST
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I can relate
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 3:12 PM EST
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Dude, David Justice was married to Halle Berry – I don’t care if he ever got a hit, that’s good enough for me.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 18, 2008 4:23 PM EST
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Dude, you shouldn’t put David Justice, Halle Barry and hit in the same sentence.
by FredOx on
Dec 18, 2008 4:31 PM EST
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I’m bitter about this, because they split up right as he came to Cleveland, and he bought the house NEXT DOOR to a grade school classmate of mine. Obviously, this classmate would have quickly become a very popular young man if his house afforded his classmates the potential for a peek into Halle Berry’s bedroom.
SO. DAMN. CLOSE.
by danvail on
Dec 19, 2008 10:48 AM EST
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I’m a huge Belle fan – anybody who throws baseballs at sports reporters is all right by me. Plus I got to meet him in person once and he was a pretty regular guy.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 18, 2008 4:16 PM EST
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What were the circumstances of your meeting him? Where did you see him?
by odradek on
Dec 19, 2008 3:18 PM EST
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When I worked at NASA Lewis the guy who ran the gym was also one of the Indian’s trainers. Every now and then one of the guy’s clients would drop by. Belle came by one day in April as I recall and just sat around and shot the shot with a couple of us. Pretty right dude, a little shorter than I expected but awful wide. The trainer said that Belle could press 225 on the incline bench for 12+ reps – very impressive. Any way he wasn’t abusive and foaming at the mouth like you’d expect from everything you read. Kinda quiet actually.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 19, 2008 6:16 PM EST
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That’s cool.
“Guys such as Sandy Koufax, Joe DiMaggio, and Steve Carlton did not interview, and it was no big deal,” says Belle. “They were quiet. I am also quiet.”
by odradek on
Dec 19, 2008 7:31 PM EST
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There’s a good saying about integrity, I can’t remember what it is … but I’m pretty sure it isn’t, “Integrity is how you act on the day you happen to run into Chuck in a bar/gym while in a good mood.”
by Jay on
Dec 19, 2008 9:03 PM EST
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There isn’t anything useful about this discourse. Its entire effect is to annoy other users while gratifying its author. That kind of behavior makes you an anti-social narcissist, not a free speech martyr.
Chuck’s sturdy guys-in-a-bar analogy is useful here. If you were with a dozen people in a bar, and half of them had made a point of saying that you were being The Annoying Guy, would you (a) shut up for a little while, (b) at least change the subject, or © keep talking until everybody else left and/or you got beat up?
The way we run this forum is simple: We kick out anti-social people before everyone else gets annoyed and leaves the virtual watering hole. We don’t care about one person gratifying himself, we care about the whole group.
Bottom line: Stop annoying people. It serves no purpose.
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 1:38 AM EST
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It’s not my intention to annoy anyone. I said that upthread a couple of times. Nor is this is any way gratifying to me. I asked a question and was shouted down in a frankly anti-social manner.
I’ve spent a lot of time in bars, but I don’t recall ever being called an annoying guy. I’m respectful of other peoples’ opinions and I know when to keep my mouth shut. I’m sorry if I’m annoying you. That isn’t my intention.
I could go back to Baseball Reference and list an amazing amount of stuff about Albert Belle. But he isn’t considered a signature player because he’s such a difficult personality. He didn’t smile.
by odradek on
Dec 17, 2008 2:07 AM EST
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People: Lofton did something cool!
You: Lofton sucks!
People: What does that have to do with him doing this cool thing?
You: Don’t make me shut up!
That is my 3 AM summary of this thread.
by Voltaire on
Dec 17, 2008 3:07 AM EST
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And that’s why this is so damn annoying. All we wanted to do was get nostalgic about our old all star centerfielder, and you won’t shut the hell up about how he’s not perfect.
by danvail on
Dec 17, 2008 7:09 AM EST
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For the record, I wasn’t thrilled when we traded Grissom (on a much cheaper contract) and re-signed Lofton, and I was pretty annoyed when we picked up that 2001 option. He clearly was past his prime.
I don’t think he had a real resurgence, although the fact he remained useful for six or seven more years was impressive. I think he was just protected by playing part-time, being put in platoon roles, and facing NL pitching for the most part.
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 1:46 AM EST
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His pay cut from ‘01 to ’02 was really incredible-from 8 million to 1 million. It’s especially bizarre when you see that he was better in ’02 and ’03 then he had been in 4 or so years, with the exception of a nice 1999.
Obviously he was being protected some, his defense was probably down, but still.
Also, I have no recollection of him being on most of these teams. He signed with the Pirates as a FA? What?
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 1:50 AM EST
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In retrospect, the 2001 option probably made sense from the standpoint of getting him on a one-year deal. At the time, I wasn’t quite as savvy about stuff like that. You know, like certain other people are now.
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 1:58 AM EST
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I have no sense of what 8 million dollars got you in the 2001 market. It seems like a lot of money for the time but I don’t really know.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 1:59 AM EST
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Well, it was that same offseason that A-Rod, Jeter and Manny got 252M, 189M, 160M.
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 2:02 AM EST
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So it got us 1/20th of Manny Ramirez. Ok, that helps me put it in perspective.
Good deal.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 2:04 AM EST
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that jeter contract is pretty disgusting
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 17, 2008 2:05 AM EST
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It’s not my intention to annoy anyone. I said that upthread a couple of times. Nor is this is any way gratifying to me. I asked a question and was shouted down in a frankly anti-social manner.
I’ve spent a lot of time in bars, but I don’t recall ever being called an annoying guy. I’m respectful of other peoples’ opinions and I know when to keep my mouth shut. I’m sorry if I’m annoying you. That isn’t my intention.
I could go back to Baseball Reference and list an amazing amount of stuff about Albert Belle. But he isn’t considered a signature player because he’s such a difficult personality. He didn’t smile.
by odradek on
Dec 17, 2008 1:50 AM EST
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Albert Belle is most definitely a signature player. Those Indians teams have I’d say at least 4 obvious signature players:
Lofton
Belle
Thome
Omar
And then a bunch more of which there are probably at least two more:
Manny
Sandy
Baerga
Nagy
Hershiser
R. Alomar
Fryman
Jaret
Now, some of those guys are not “true Indians” but they do represent players that are strongly associated with those teams by the general populace.
For a team that never won, I’d say that Indians team has a really high number of players that were and continue to be extremely closely associated with the club. Contrast to, say, the Dodgers of the ’90s. The Dodgers had one signature player: Piazza. Eric Karros and Nomo lag way behind.
by afh4 on
Dec 17, 2008 1:56 AM EST
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I’d add Denny Martinez to the second list
by millionairesrow on
Dec 17, 2008 9:23 AM EST
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Seriously, I would put Mesa on that second list. Right until that one pitch, I loved the guy. He was still a part of those teams. In 1995 he had an absolutely insane ERA+ of 415. If not for Game Seven of the 1997 WS, he’s an Indians hero.
by fwembt on
Dec 17, 2008 2:39 PM EST
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To piggyback off that. Mesa, like him or not, is a signature player of those teams because of the memories of which he is a part. That ‘97 collapse wasn’t a good thing, but we all remember it. I think that makes him signature.
by fwembt on
Dec 17, 2008 2:42 PM EST
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Am I the only one who remembers the sexual assault?
by Jay on
Dec 17, 2008 4:08 PM EST
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not anymore. that incident was brushed away pretty quickly, though.
by APV on
Dec 17, 2008 4:16 PM EST
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Charged December 1996, acquitted April 1997.
But, you know, he was acquitted of those charges, but clearly far from innocent overall.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 12:58 AM EST
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Where there’s the one charge there are who-knows-how-many other incidents, you know.
One charge is a pretty big deal. Accidents of this kind don’t happen.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 9:30 AM EST
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Don’t they? Duke Lacrosse?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 10:44 AM EST
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Yeah right, Phil.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 2:25 PM EST
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Yeah right what?
You can’t make a blanket statement that everyone ever accused of sexual assault is unequivocally guilty, regardless of legal ruling.
This is not the place for this discussion though.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 3:14 PM EST
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With sexual assault specifically, you’re treated as guilty until proven innocent, unfortunately.
(attempts to refrain from further commentary)
by Voltaire on
Dec 18, 2008 3:15 PM EST
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Ok, so you found one example.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 3:47 PM EST
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Roman Polansky
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 18, 2008 4:13 PM EST
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But in truth, according to USA Today, well known athletes do better when charged with sexual assault than the population in general.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 18, 2008 4:18 PM EST
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I don’t mean this literally, but if you follow these things and have some basic understanding of human nature, you must know what’s going on. Be real.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 3:52 PM EST
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I need to be real? Really? You don’t think there are any other cases, ever, where someone has accused a high-profile athlete of sexual assault or a similar charge to try to make a quick buck? And whether or not the athlete or any random guy is truly guilty, he has the stigma attached to him for the rest of his life.
There’s being PC, and then there’s being oblivious.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 3:53 PM EST
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Well, it was proven that he had an unregistered gun in the car, that he went down to the flats to cruise for women, that he was married when doing so, that he got two women to leave with him in his car, and that there was sexual contact.
The only thing that wasn’t proved was that Mesa forced the sexual contact, and there was significant evidence of that, but the jury did not feel that it rose to the level of “beyond a reasonable doubt.”
So yeah, let’s be realistic about it … he is presumed not to be a rapist, but he is also presumed not to be the greatest guy based on the whole set of facts.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 4:37 PM EST
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I had similar comments to the denizens of Baltimore Beatdown about Ray Lewis a couple of weeks ago. They didn’t get it. Since the collective IQ of LGT is significantly higher, I hope most of you can get Jay’s point.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 18, 2008 4:53 PM EST
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Yeah I’m not talking about Mesa specifically, I had actually no recollection of this. I’m just saying in general.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 11:49 PM EST
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I don’t understand where political correctness fits in. This is law-of-the-land ancient common sense.
If you’re an upstanding person, it’s not that hard to get through life without a sexual assault accusation. Conduct yourself well and avoid underage girls, bar girls, young women on welfare, golddigers, strippers, etc., and this isn’t going to happen to you. You can be an “active” adult and avoid all these traps. The ones who don’t have serious maturity issues, and you know what that means.
These accusations aren’t coming from nowhere.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 5:01 PM EST
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I think, to be realistic about it, there are a lot more movies and TV episodes devoted to the subject of men who are innocently on trial for sexual assault. Fear of being accused in that way is part of the zeitgeist, it’s part of the psyche of most any American man in this era — and that’s why you get movies about it.
But in real life, women tend not to want to put themselves out there as rape victims, and prosecutors have very little incentive to charge and indict a celebrity if they don’t find the accuser to be credible and the supporting evidence to be significant. The judge can throw it out if he/she doesn’t think the evidence passes prima facie muster, too.
In the end, the system is set up so that very few criminal cases go to trial without very substantial evidence that the defendant is guilty. If he’s on trial, he’s probably guilty — but in order to be convicted, the standard is much higher. “Reasonable doubt” is a standard for our legal system, but not for our common sense. And even apart from that, not being guilty of a crime isn’t the same thing as not being guilty of being a sleazy creep.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 5:10 PM EST
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To hear inmates tell it, our prisons are filled with innocent men and those wrongly convicted.
by odradek on
Dec 18, 2008 5:23 PM EST
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Wrongly convicted, probably. Innocent, not so much.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 6:47 PM EST
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avoid underage girls, bar girls, young women on welfare, golddigers, strippers, etc.,
and
The ones who ……… have serious maturity issues
Dude if I’d have followed your advice I’d have eliminated 95% of my dating pool! You must lead a very dull life jhon.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 18, 2008 5:17 PM EST
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On the contrary, in between postings on LGT I’ve had some interesting experiences—year after year, month by month—but I’m going to be protective of further allusions. There’s a reason that I’m not jaded about this business. I’ll leave it at that.
And as it turns out, I’ve got a date tonight. I don’t even have to pay her! Can you believe that?!
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 5:31 PM EST
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No….
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 18, 2008 5:32 PM EST
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Haha. Good point. Well, if I’m in a good mood I might just pay for the dinner…
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 5:51 PM EST
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Haha. Also true. Necessity is my inspiration.
I think I hear heels clicking. Here goes.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 18, 2008 7:03 PM EST
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Conduct yourself well and avoid underage girls, bar girls, young women on welfare, golddigers, strippers, etc., and this isn’t going to happen to you.
Because everyone is a perfect upstanding citizen and certainly couldn’t make one of these mistakes without being a rapist.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 18, 2008 11:50 PM EST
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I don’t think anyone is claiming this was a one-time thing for Mesa. For him, as with many if not most professional athletes, this is the lifestyle.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 11:57 PM EST
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Again, I’m not defending Mesa. I’m more offended by the seemingly guilty-till-proven-innocent mentality. Obviously I’m not naive enough to think that there aren’t a ton of athletes who are totally sleazy. Anyway, I don’t really want to go much further with this on here, we’re probably crossing the line or at least very close. I’d be happy to discuss over e-mail.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 19, 2008 12:10 AM EST
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There is no guilty-until-proven-innocent mentality. There is simply common sense supposition based on the facts that are known.
Not everything is about platitudes, sometimes something just is what it is. Usually, in fact.
by Jay on
Dec 19, 2008 1:24 AM EST
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This is similar to the classic First Amendment confusion.
Guilty until proven innocent is a concept that applies only to our courts. Journalists tend to observe it, but only within common sense limits.
It is not a concept that applies to the whole society or to all of our judgments. If it did, we’d be idiots.
by Jay on
Dec 19, 2008 1:26 AM EST
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I hope you meant innocent until proven guilty.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 19, 2008 10:21 AM EST
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Bleh, yeah, of course that is what I meant, I was just dumbly copying Turk’s phrase.
by Jay on
Dec 19, 2008 3:20 PM EST
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Thought so, but the way this discussion has gone, I couldn’t be too sure.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 19, 2008 3:27 PM EST
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Do we really, actually believe in innocent until proven guilty?
by fwembt on
Dec 22, 2008 12:57 AM EST
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I guess it depends. Jay’s emphasis on guilty of a crime is important. I’ve been liberally stressing guilt—such as Mesa’s rather obvious guilt—but it’s not necessarily criminal guilt.
There’s being guilty of being a jackass—which people who run into the law most likely are—and then there’s criminal, punishable guilt. In one instance you’re likely to be deservedly shunned, in the other you might go to jail and lose all your rights. Because of the harshness penalty involved, the qualifications of guilt are set so high.
I mean, Mesa really got away with one there.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 22, 2008 10:35 AM EST
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Wait, you work in law enforcement, yeah? What’s your take?
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 22, 2008 10:49 AM EST
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I do but I also have started working on my law degree so my take is fairly complicated. Basically, when I am part of an arrest I know the person is guilty. At the same time, I recognize that the person is not yet actually “guilty.” Does that make any sense?
My reaction to hearing about an arrest or apprehension is the same as most people’s. I think “they got the guy.” Do you know anyone who hears about an arrest and thinks “They got the suspect, I sure can’t wait to hear what the courts say?”
by fwembt on
Dec 22, 2008 12:59 PM EST
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It doesn’t have to be that complicated.
The presumption of innocence is simply a legal construction to establish the roles of the parties and the burden of proof in a criminal proceeding.
The state has to prove to the tribunal that the defendant is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. If that cannot be done, the defendant is acquitted, not necessarily because we don’t think the defendant did something, but because we do not think the evidence was sufficient to justify punishing that person for committing the crime.
That the person was not found to be legally culpable for the crime they were charged with does not necessarily mean that we, as members of society cannot find him to be morally culpable as a less than desirable person.
Also, just because the trier of fact will be bound to the presumption of innocence in dealing with the matter does not mean that others, law enforcement officers in particular, cannot feel that they’ve charged a person who was guilty of a crime. In fact, if the officer making the charge did not feel that strongly, he or she should probably not make the charge in the first place.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 22, 2008 2:05 PM EST
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That’s a much better explanation. I especially like that last paragraph.
by fwembt on
Dec 22, 2008 2:44 PM EST
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Geez, doesn’t the fact – the fact – that literally hundres of folks have been released from prison because the DNA evidence proved that they where innocent give any of you folks pause? It tells me that not only are some of those who are arrested innocent but some of the convicted are too.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 24, 2008 3:20 AM EST
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Right, and further, the cops can be sooooo sure that they got the right guy. Everything in their gut tells them it was the right guy. Heck, maybe some basic evidence supports that conclusion. But that doesn’t make it so, and the truth, as proved by DNA evidence, can be very tough to swallow.
DNA is kind of like the advanced stats of baseball. It can tell you so much more than just what you think is true.
by DaytonDogg on
Dec 24, 2008 11:39 AM EST
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We’ve gone from why there is a presumption of innocence, and law enforcement needing probable cause to believe a crime has been committed to charge someone with a crime to the fact that the system makes mistakes.
Next maybe we can discuss how the people wrongfully imprisoned are getting too much in their malicious prosecution, false imprisonment law suits and that we need tort reform.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 24, 2008 12:51 PM EST
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I still don’t see what this has to do with Jose Mesa. You can go through all of those cases and find that in almost everyone, the case for reasonable doubt was always strong, and that in many of them the presiding judge should have gone JNOV.
by Jay on
Dec 24, 2008 2:03 PM EST
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In cases where the stigma attached to the crime is understandably huge, it’s more important than ever to exercise the greatest care that assumptions are kept to a minimum.
by Voltaire on
Dec 18, 2008 3:57 PM EST
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I’ll stand up for the Duke Lax guys. They were my classmates and that was just a royal miscarriage of justice. The behavior of that DA was appalling.
by afh4 on
Dec 18, 2008 3:44 PM EST
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So much for innocent until proven guilty. yikes.
by DaytonDogg on
Dec 18, 2008 10:47 AM EST
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More to the point, it may be what keeps him off the list of signature players from that era.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 18, 2008 2:53 PM EST
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He wasn’t as tenured as many of the others, but I think it all comes down to Game 7 for Mesa.
by Jay on
Dec 18, 2008 3:50 PM EST
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That does it for me.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.
by Harry Doyle on
Dec 18, 2008 3:59 PM EST
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Accused = He’s almost certainly guilty, but by how much?
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 19, 2008 12:45 PM EST
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Is this the South in the 1960’s?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 19, 2008 1:16 PM EST
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omg what a brilliant parallel
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 19, 2008 1:35 PM EST
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Dude, enough. Check your e-mail.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on
Dec 19, 2008 1:52 PM EST
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Now wait a sec, “accused” is not the same thing as arrested, charged, indicted and successfully brought to trial. Anybody can just be “accused.”
Just about a year ago, I had a woman accost me over a parking spot, and about 30 seconds into it, she decided to accuse me of hurling the N-word at her. One of the most disgusting moments of my life, by the way. That’s the merit of an accusation.
But even if that were an actual crime, there’s no way I would have been charged, arraigned, indicted, brought to trial.
by Jay on
Dec 19, 2008 3:22 PM EST
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Yikes. Well, some people are just plain nuts, but usually doesn’t take long for it to show. It would take an uncommonly determined level of crazy to carry on a concocted accusation for the duration of a trail. It’s hard to imagine someone doing such a thing, but I guess it’s possible.
Turk, I guess we’re just in different emotional places with regard to this subject. You’re probably right that it’s best to drop it. I’m having no fun at all debating this.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 19, 2008 3:51 PM EST
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Bottom line is that no prosecutor wants to put him/herself in that situation, hurting the win-loss record and wasting his/her time, the judge’s time, everyone else in the office … if they bring the case, it’s generally pretty strong.
by Jay on
Dec 19, 2008 9:05 PM EST
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I’ll go ahead and disagree pretty strongly. In my experience, lots of stuff goes in to a prosecutor’s decision to charge someone. Regardless of the merit, the case is almost certain to end in some sort of plea and come out as a “win” for the prosecutor. So the win-loss record and the time-wasting factors are pretty low.
by DaytonDogg on
Dec 20, 2008 3:19 PM EST
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You’re talking about where it gets pled out to something very minor. That’s still not the situation we’ve been talking about here.
by Jay on
Dec 20, 2008 4:45 PM EST
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No what we’re talking about is a high-profile allegation that was in the PD every day. An ADA would hafta be professionally suicidal to not prosecute to the fullest extent of the law.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 20, 2008 5:47 PM EST
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I have to disagree. I can promise you, the prosecutor in this case would rather not have prosecuted.
by Jay on
Dec 20, 2008 8:10 PM EST
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You’ve gotta be awful young to be both this naive and self-righteous.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 20, 2008 3:52 PM EST
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It’s scary isn’t it? Around here we respect odds, and you and I both know what the odds say about accusations.
But yeah, on a case-by-case basis a healthy dose of skepticism and pursuit of the facts leading to the truth is essential. I’ve taken it for granted that we all understand that.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on
Dec 20, 2008 4:14 PM EST
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Someone accused is more likely to be guilty than someone not accused, but that’s trivial. To say “almost certainly guilty” is hyperbolic.
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 20, 2008 5:55 PM EST
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Agreed. I would go with “probably guilty of something, but not necessarily anything, and not necessarily a crime.”
by Jay on
Dec 20, 2008 8:11 PM EST
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I really don’t want to get into this, but no, jhon’s statement was pretty extreme. Jay’s point about the difference between being accused and being charged, arraigned, etc. is an important one. Plus I think it’s also naive to think that the justice system is so perfect that almost entirely guilty people are ever charged, in general.
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 20, 2008 5:54 PM EST
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It’s equally naive to think that everyone who’s convicted is guilty. Check out The Innocence Project.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on
Dec 20, 2008 6:20 PM EST
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That’s a great project, but I doubt they’re working to clear any professional athletes of wrongdoing.
by Jay on
Dec 20, 2008 8:13 PM EST
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I agree, for sure. I never said anything remotely contradictory. Sounds like you’re contradicting yourself a bit though? You accused DaytonDogg of being naive and self-righteous for challenging jhon’s statement that being accused meant you were almost certainly guilty…
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 20, 2008 9:48 PM EST
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