Let's Go Tribe!: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Network Message: 50% Off: CBS/SB Nation Fantasy Baseball

Not exactly Indians-centric but I find this pretty bizarre. If it were a two year offer at 12 a year I'd almost think it could be the Tribe...Not that I'm terribly anxious to see Pettitte pull into town.

He has his pluses though. Durability.

about 1 year ago 47b8dd28b3127cceb64839d9746800000026102bauwjrq3za_tiny afh4 87 comments 0 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Let's Go Tribe!

Game One: Oh, Hamburgers

Apr 2009 by Jay - 125 comments

Around SB Nation

The Relievers Situation

Mar 2010 from Pinstripe Alley - 19 comments

The Many Lists of Three

Feb 2010 from FakeTeams - 7 comments

Comments

Display:

Pettitte got hammered on luck and defense last year. His peripherals were a lot better, but his ERA went up anyway. He was 41st in ERA but in the Top 10 in FIP and xFIP. Given our lack of quality depth in the rotation, I’d welcome a two-year deal with Pettitte.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 1:42 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

You have any suspicions this could be us? Maybe a 2 year with a vest?

by afh4 on Dec 17, 2008 1:45 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’m okay with that only if I get to call him The Schnozz for the duration of his contract.

by fleerdon on Dec 17, 2008 1:55 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Wouldn’t the only other likely places be Houston or (Texas)?

by Toxicadam on Dec 17, 2008 1:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

There’s no way it’s Houston. And I’d be really surprised if Texas could keep it’s mouth shut.

by afh4 on Dec 17, 2008 2:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It’s still business and Pettite could be using just about anyone’s name to get the Yankees to pay a for more dollars. Doesn’t mean he intends to go there.

by Toxicadam on Dec 17, 2008 3:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A mild suspicion.

I know they say they really want an infielder, but it’s hard not to conclude that a #3 starter (or better) is our most serious problem. And then there’s the fact that they’re not talking about it, and you know what that means.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 2:00 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You mean Kaz Tadano?

by fwembt on Dec 17, 2008 2:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If you think that’s bad you should see his popup book.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 11:44 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

world dictator will be here all week. Please, ladies and gentlemen, don’t forget to tip your server, and next time, try the veal.

by woodsmeister on Dec 18, 2008 3:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

rimshot

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Dec 18, 2008 3:30 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks for picking up my slack. I need to log on more frequently.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Dec 19, 2008 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Being a fan of a smart team that plays it close to the vest is pretty darned great, I gotta say. Spurs fans affectionately refer to our coach as “CIA Pop” for much the same reason.

Well, that and the fact that he’s had espionage training.

by ManchildinBeantown on Dec 17, 2008 2:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I gotta say I’m a bit torn. I’ve been reading this book about the effects of secrecy in American institution and its effect on democracy. Fascinating read. I mean I understand why it’s prudent to be secretive about potential transactions, but it made me think a lot about the Hafner and JoBo injuries last year and how it seemed like we were potentially covering things up to make the team look better rather than disclosing information that should be public.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 11:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Victor’s elbow is another example.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 11:26 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, meant to include that too.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i don’t know why that info should be public.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 11:36 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not saying it necessarily should. But on the other hand, why shouldn’t it? Does it directly harm the team in any way to inform its fans of injuries? It seems to me the only harm that could come of this is if the FO was indeed trying to cover something up, because you know it will leak out eventually and reflect really poorly on the organization, possibly damaging their reputation to the point where it drives away potential FA’s and such.

Again, this is just hypothetical, I’m not accusing the org of anything, just wondering what could possibly be gained by covering these things up.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Competitive reasons. You don’t want the other team to know the catcher has a broken toe, or the right fielder has a bad hamstring, or whatever.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, or player privacy, sure. But still. Seems shady to withhold injuries to the point that you’re hurting the player more by making him play so other teams don’t think he’s injured. Again, not saying that’s what we did.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think players ever are sent out specifically so that other teams don’t know that they’re hurt. That wouldn’t make any sense at all. The point is rather that if you’re going to send them out there, don’t tell everyone that they have vulnerabilities.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 18, 2008 10:33 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve seen references to player privacy issues and HIPPA a couple of times here and in other posts, but I’ve found the current CBA online and, as I expected, the players are required to sign a release to the team with regard to health issues.

The CBA says:

(3) For public relations purposes, a Club may disclose general information about (a) the nature of a Player’s employment-related
injury, (b) the prognosis and the anticipated length of recovery from
the injury, and © the treatment and surgical procedures undertaken
or anticipated in regard to the injury. For any other medical condition
that prevents a Player from rendering services to his Club, a
Club may disclose only the fact that a medical condition is preventing
the Player from rendering services to the Club and the anticipated
length of the Player’s absence from the Club. A Club
physician or trainer treating a Player pursuant to Regulation 2 of his
UPC and any other physician or medical professional treating or
consulting with a Player pursuant to Regulation 2 or Article XIII
shall be prohibited from making any public disclosure of a Player’s
medical information absent a separate, specific written authorization
from the Player authorizing such public disclosure.

So, HIPPA and privacy issues do not prevent a team from disclosing the nature of a player’s injury. Prudence to maintain a competitive advantage may keep a team from telling the world everything that’s wrong with a player.

I’m with Jay on this one. The team is not obligated to tell me everything about a player’s medical condition – particularly if he’s on the active roster at that time. If the team believes that keeping that stuff to itself gives the team a better chance of winning, I have no problem with it.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Dec 18, 2008 2:25 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure, that’s the “truth”, and it helps the Indians succeed, and is another example of our FO being highly skilled, but that doesn’t change the fact that Shap’s lies are slowly killing me. Not knowing wtf was wrong Victor or IS wrong with Hafner is maddening.

Woe is me.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 5:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i would be willing to bet shapiro has never publicly lied, ever. i can’t think of one instance where he passed along information that was intentionally false.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 5:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously you’re not counting lies of omission or misdirection. How long did Victor play with a bum elbow without anyone outside of the FO knowing? That’s not a “lie” exactly, but I’m sure that at some point someone asked a question of the “is there any reason you know of why player x might be performing poorly” type and Shapiro either said no or ignored the question.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 6:02 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe you’re better off dead.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Except that the Indians are a private company, not the government. As fans, we opt in to being stakeholders, but they don’t owe us transparency. The question is, does transparency help them succeed?

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I agree with what you’re saying here. I’m not necessarily saying the Indians were wrong here. Just that I’ve gotten to thinking that excessive secrecy is not really something that should be celebrated, I guess.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Without getting too political here, I think the secrecy is bad movement is just another “fad” political storyline that no one will remember in five years.

Secrecy is just like anything else in life that should be done in moderation.

If we were exposed to all of the secrets of the Indians front office I’m sure we could find plenty of we agree they were right to conceal.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 3:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree with this. I’m just saying excessive secrecy is very rarely good in the long run.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Not trying to get technical, but is excessive anything considered to be good? Isn’t that sort of the implied definition of excessive?

I guess my point is, I always feel like a lot of these kind of debates are truism. Excessive secrecy is bad, excessive exercise is bad, excessive eating is bad, etc, etc.

The real debate should lie in what constitutes excessive, moderate, and rarity.

Just my opinion though.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair point. I would argue that while secrecy is kind of a “fad” thing to discuss, it is still an issue. Deeper investigation would reveal what I think many people would find to be excessive secrecy perpetrated by not only government but private industry, press, universities, etc.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think this a category violation.

Secrecy as an abstract concept is neither good nor bad, it’s only good or bad in application.

Secrecy in government as a rule in a bad thing. Same goes for publicly traded companies. There are very important exceptions in both cases, however.

For a privately owned company, secrecy generally is a good thing.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 4:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fair enough. I wanna cut this off here for fear of being too political. Basically the one comment made me relate back to what I had been reading. It’s a good book, if anyone wants to discuss over e-mail rather than on here.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 4:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

football is worse their weekly injury report is a joke.

Fan in Texas

by fanintexas on Dec 17, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know, there at least exist some rules that attempt to force teams to disclose injuries in the NFL. There is no such thing in MLB.

Shap would tell you a bold faced lie to your face if it that it in any capacity might give the team the slightest advantage. Under the current complete lack of regulation on such matters, he’s absolutely right to do so.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 5:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i take issue with this. name one bold faced lie he has ever told. i cannot think of one example. he would say nothing, or be vauge, but i can’t think of one case where he clearly knew something to be the case and said it was another.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He probably hasn’t, that was a bit of hyperbole, but being vague or misdirecting or silent when injuries are asked about is dishonest. Of course, it’s Shap’s job to spin and misdirect sometimes.

I wouldn’t be surprised if someone could come up with an example where he actually did intentionally lie to the media, but I certainly can’t point one out.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

it’s not even hyperbole. it’s B.S.

Dan is a rapist. Okay, maybe that’s a bit of hyperbole. he’s had sex, so he’s basically a rapist in my eye.

he has some obligation to protect a player’s privacy (hipaa) and he has a ton of responsibility to protect his team’s competitive advantage. just because he doesn’t tell you everything that is going on, doesn’t mean he’s a liar.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 8:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

How does he protect the competitive advantage? By misdirecting, misleading, omitting information, and otherwise ignoring questions. The Victor thing is the best example. He kept talking about his hamstring injury when his elbow was the real issue. No, it’s not technically lying, but it’s covering up the truth not only by not disclosing information but also by misleading people into thinking his other injury (hamstring) is the true cause of the issue.

One week:
Hamstring Hampering Martinez’s Power Numbers

The next week:Wedge told the media postgame on Wednesday that the elbow pain is something that Martinez has been playing through for sometime.

The quotes may have come through Wedge, but in no way do I think the party line was not being written by Shapiro.

And for the record, the difference between lying and misleading (in the aforementioned context) is comparable to the difference between date rape and assault rape.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 9:29 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

same reason the natural should have worn a better band-aid.

let me ask you this. why does telling the truth matter?

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 11:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ve said before that Shapiro’s right to do what he does. I applaud and value his leadership and savvy.

My only complaint is that as a fan of baseball I believe I’d like to see some rules put in place that force teams to disclose injuries. I have no idea how that would work (or how it would affect the competitive landscape), but you have to admit as a diehard fan, not knowing what’s wrong (if anything) with one of your players is taxing.

by danvail on Dec 18, 2008 8:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with that, it is taxing. But the first thing is, it would have to get by the union, and I’m not even sure how empowered the union is to compel its individual members to give over their rights under HIPAA. I’m not sure it’s legal. The second thing is, the Indians are a disciplined organization, and that is a competitive advantage. Compel everyone to disclose, and we lose that advantage.

by Jay on Dec 18, 2008 9:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

See my comments above about HIPPA release. It seems that’s already been done.

(There’s also some debate about the application of HIPPA to the employer (as opposed to the plan sponsor/health insurer/medical provider), but my contribution to this discussion has gotten boring enough already.)

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Dec 18, 2008 2:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Q: Mark, is there a chance of, like you’re plugging in that young guy, I mean, for the heck of it, Andy Marte? I mean, the guys who are playing now, obviously haven’t done a whole lot. With Casey’s flexibility, it wouldn’t necessarily be you have to bench Casey, you can move other people around in the outfield. Could you see more of Andy?
Shapiro: You know, I …
Q: He’s only gotten eleven at-bats!
Shapiro: … I think that one’s probably more for Eric, you know, what he’s doing with the existing guys on the team, but I do think he’s expressed some openness to playing some different guys and trying to see if someone can pick up our offense that’s in-house here as well.

By no means openly lying, just spinning and dodging.

by danvail on Dec 17, 2008 6:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

then call it spinning and dodging.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 8:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You make it sound so easy.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 8:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

(Insert gambling comment here) and (Insert Bill Belichik comment here).

by SuddenSam on Dec 17, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

2-year contracts seem so avuncular when they wear vests

by Logodaedalus on Dec 17, 2008 2:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Only if it is a Christmas vest. With bells. And lights.

Signature to be named later.

by emd2k3 on Dec 17, 2008 4:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i really think this is us. and i really think it fits.

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 17, 2008 2:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I really don’t think its us. Its probably a team that thinks there’s a chance Petitte will accept. I’d say the Dodgers but honestly I think this is a bit too smart for them.

It might be the Red Sox or the Blue Jays trying to at the very least drive up the price for Petitte.

…By the way, I’d love to see Petitte in a Red Sox uniform.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 6:43 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I also don’t think this is us, but I don’t think it’s the Red Sox either. The next time the Red Sox doing something “secretly” will be the first.

It’s probably some out-of-the-blue team like the Cardinals or the Rockies. I’m guessing the Cards since they always seem to have money for signings like this, their rotation needs help, and Pettitte seems like the kind of guy LaRussa would be into (read: old).

by mrich on Dec 17, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i think his agent is making it up.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 11:37 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I kind of think I’d prefer Pettitte to Sheets. I’m not convinced Sheets could be had for 2+1 @ $12MM per, though.

by fleerdon on Dec 17, 2008 2:08 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

No way is Sheets that cheap. If he is, sign me up.

by afh4 on Dec 17, 2008 2:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i have a feeling someone is going to give him too many years

Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.

by Gradyforpresident on Dec 17, 2008 2:16 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheets is higher risk/reward.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 2:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

and I’m a RewardZone member.

by NickFantana on Dec 17, 2008 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Triple points for buying aging lefty soft-tossers

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Dec 17, 2008 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think Sheets is 3 yrs/$13 mil per. Possibly a 4th year vesting, but I think he’d rather hit free agency again after three years.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 6:38 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly two. If I’m Sheets, I don’t want to have two good years and then blow it in the third year with an injury, not to mention coming back on the market another year older.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 12:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

i want this to be us

by Voltaire on Dec 17, 2008 2:55 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I would be ok with this.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Dec 17, 2008 9:02 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Petite is clutch!

by Roger Dorn on Dec 17, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll agree. Petite is way better than overweight.

by fwembt on Dec 17, 2008 2:33 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

To everyone reading the thread who didn’t read the article, keep in mind that the contract is 3 yrs/$36 million not 2yrs/$24 mil

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 11:43 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, a key point. But I’ll also point out that the press often reports contracts total values including vestings or options before all the details come out.

by afh4 on Dec 17, 2008 12:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed. But I think that a vesting option for Petitte is more or less a formality, especially given the likelihood of a low threshold.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 12:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know why you think there would be a low threshold.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 12:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Because I don’t think a player/agent would agree to a vesting option they had no chance of meeting.

The majority of vesting options I’ve seen provide some protection for the team but very achievable thresholds for the player. Given the oft injured Wood getting a third year vesting option predicated on him being healthy/decent for only one of his two guranteed years, I’d be surprised if Petitte’s vesting option were not a similar easily achievable goal.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 3:38 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

But there’s a wide space in between “no chance of meeting” and “low.”

The main purpose of the vesting option is to protect the team from a disastrous event occurring prior to the last year of the deal. That is certainly not a formality.

Wood’s vesting terms provide the obvious example. He needs to have a very solid and healthy season in order to meet that threshold. It is not a “low” threshold, but certainly has better than “no chance” of meeting it.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Don’t you think a vesting option whose main purpose is to protect the team from a disaster implies its more or less a formality?
Perhaps formality is too strong of a word, but I think its safe to say that the odds are, a player has a good to very good chance of meeting his vesting option requirements in most cases. At the very least a good enough chance that for all but a few players, you have to count the vesting option as part of the contract.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 6:05 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I think that makes it a “vesting option.”

Something close to 100% of vesting options are designed with that purpose in mind.

by Jay on Dec 17, 2008 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

maybe it’s 2 years, 19 million with a 17 million team option for the third.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Dec 17, 2008 1:12 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Did anyone see Jerry Crasnick from ESPN says the Indians are interested in Will Ohman?

I’m kind of suprised we’d be pursuing another reliever.

by world dictator on Dec 17, 2008 4:02 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

ohman’s lefty, right? i could see that. mujica definitely out of the picture then.

by Brick. on Dec 17, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love me some Andy Pettitte.

by Joe. on Dec 17, 2008 10:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

And a man-crush is born.

Still the local "Barfield Bounces Back Believer" and confident that Gutz will succeed in Seattle.

by mjmarble on Dec 17, 2008 11:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love me some late night chilaquiles right now. But if I can’t have that, which i can’t, I’d gladly take Andy Pettitte for 2/22.

by APV on Dec 18, 2008 12:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Out of curiosity, what stopped you from the chilaquiles?

by NickFantana on Dec 19, 2008 11:35 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Constantly updated Indians news, lots of in-depth analysis, live in-game discussions — and more fanatical and thoughtful Indians fans than every other web site combined.
Start posting about the Indians »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

Cbs_fantasy_baseball_promo

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
Bullpen Banter's Indians Preview and our Top 25 Prospects
Dscn0271_small
The Pitchers 2004 vs. 2010
Scared_of_santa_small
top 30 prospects
Small
DYE
39135485-59af19dbb26654095f910f34176af094_4ae8a81e-scaled_small
Predictions Group
Small
I think we found our utility infielder
Small
Baseball in Japan
3444ant_black_small
Spring Training Trips
Hans_small
Trade Peralta?
3444ant_black_small
Beware the year of the Ox

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Featured Poll

Poll
Who would you most like to see in the rotation to start the season?

  52 votes | Results

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Talbot's Mind is Blown / Sowers Out of the Race
Brian Giles Retires
NYT weighs in on the Indians' woes
I came away from that game with a hatred of the Yankees and was absolute...
LL Responds to ESPN-Bradley Interview
Pitch Face!
Lebron suspended for PEDs
NJ Institute of Technology math professor projects Tribe for 67 wins
Realignment Committee with Interesting Ideas
Cleveland's bold strategy

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Managers

427px-nap_lajoie_1913_small Ryan

Dosequisman_small Jay

Authors

3444ant_black_small APV

47b8dd28b3127cceb64839d9746800000026102bauwjrq3za_small afh4