George Steinbrenner: A True Clevelander(!)
by Spidey on Jan 5, 2009 4:13 PM EST
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King George (Recent SI Article about George Steinbrenner)
All of the talk about CC heading to NYC reminded me of this recent article. I think it really hits the mark on what makes Cleveland so unique in its view of NYC (and the Yankees).
Cleveland's relationship with New York, though, always seemed just a little bit different to me, it always seemed that of a little brother or sister who wanted to wear the same clothes. Growing up, I can remember hearing about New York every week in one way or another.
And it seems to me that Cleveland-New York relationship is close to the heart of the story of George Steinbrenner. He grew up in Cleveland. And in a way I've always thought that defined him. He has to be the most famous New Yorker who never really lived in New York. It's the Cleveland in him.
I'm not sure if the connection is still as strong as it was in the 70s and 80s, but I'd agree that it is unique in relation to other cities. I always thought of Cleveland as having New York heart with Midwestern charm.
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Oh, and to add another thing: when we blast New York or the Yankees, we are doing it more from dejected frustration – as one might feel for a sibling who makes choices that bring short-term gain but long-term disappointment. We feel bad for our junkie brother— If only the Yankees had continued down the straight-and-narrow by developing its own talent, but alas… that money-grubbing-alley-cat-coat-wearing-tub-o-goo had to come along and knock the Yanks off the wagon. CC better do something good with that money because right now, he disgusts me.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
The are nothing like a junkie sibling. Their decisions do not bring long term disappointment to them. Let’s not pretend that a few years with out a title shows that you can’t buy championships. Even if their decisions did bring them long term disappointment, why would that be bad ? I do not want them to succeed. I want them to fail harder than the Ravens and the Steelers combined. Why would their making bad decisions frustrate me? It would fill me with glee.
Besides, and I speak from experience on this one, they are acting like a bully of an older brother. They are taking what they want and there is nothing the rest of us can do about it. At some level they might feel slightly guilty, but not enough to do the right thing (change the system to make this sort of abomination impossible).
I agree. At best they’re the step-brother that came to live with you when your dad got remarried to your wicked stepmother. The step-brother who’s doted on and who gets lots of nice things while you have to wear rags and do all the chores. You have no fond feelings for him whatsoever and are pleased only by his downfall when the World Series princess chooses you instead, and the various lesser Duchesses keep tossing him aside to have sex with the kid from Tampa.
by Logodaedalus on Dec 19, 2008 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
There is nothing sibling about the Indians’ rivalry with the Yankees, and certainly nothing siblinglike about the relationship between Indians fans and Yankees fans. People come to root for those teams for very different reasons, and I would go so far as to say that many diehard Indians fans, had they grown up in New York City, would not have been that attracted to the Yankees. I don’t think that I would have been. The personality of each fan base very much reflects the team’s history.
I always thought of Cleveland as having New York heart with Midwestern charm.
I feel this way too. And really, it’s not too far off from the foundation of Cleveland. The city was founded by snooty Northeasterners but inhabited by folks with a mix of pioneer mentality and East Coast ingenuity.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
That town is actually Chicago. Cleveland is much more like a large-scale village, a real city and yet provincial in both good and bad ways.
Well, either way, I loves me some Cleveland. It’s not totally East Coast or Midwest and, to me, combines some of the best qualities of both.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 19, 2008 7:50 PM EST up reply actions
You want provincial, come to Boston. Cleveland knows its place and its relationship with the rest of the world. The city knows its limitations and appreciates the value of other places.
Besides, Chicago is not a town – it’s a major international city. Cleveland has always understood that it is not a major international city – in fact, that is the point about Cleveland being “a plum”. Cleveland always knows its place – and it’s place is closer to New York.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
I gotta disagree with you here man. Cleveland is actually much less midwestern in feel compared to Chicago. The two towns had similar migration patterns in the 19th century,but Cleveland was settled by New Englanders, and has sort of always been the last outpost of New York and the East Coast, every bit as much if not more than it has been the most eastern outpost of the Midwest. I don’t think you can say that about Chicago or (especially of) its outlying areas. Chicago is Illinois which is solidly midwest, whereas Northeast Ohio is sort of no man’s land.
Also! New York is about as provincial as anyplace I’ve ever been.
Agreed. Cleveland is the most Midwestern East Coast city in the US; or the most Eastern Midwest city, depending on how you look at it.
Similarly, I think Cincinnati is the Northern most Southern city.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
To expand on that, everything that Posnaski is using here (the art, the fashion, the tall buildings, the symphony) is all ridiculous when you use Chicago or LA as any sort of context. I don’t think it makes any sense to compare Cleveland in 1967 to New York. Cleveland doesn’t hold up to Chicago in the “who’s second to New York culture contest”, not at all. And on top of that, Cleveland is much more like Chicago in terms of layout and personality, at least in my experience.
I don’t agree. Chicago is very much its own thing. Very midwestern. Very non-NY. There certainly was a time where Cleveland was in the running for the ‘second city’ feel moving west from NY. Certainly, this time is past, but that is the underlying foundation of the character of Cleveland still. The symphony and theater district are the most blunt examples of this, as they still rank just under NYC in quantity and quality.
I really don’t know what LA has to do with it- LA has no redeeming qualities and is a complete and total hell hole.
Chicago is the big city out of Indianapolis, Columbus, Minneapolis/St. Paul. Cleveland doesn’t belong in that group. If not with the East Coast cities, Cleveland at least belongs with the rust belt, cities like Pittsburgh and Detroit.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
But Gary, IN clearly belongs in the Rust Belt, and Chicago blends right into Gary. The dividing line, if there is one, is probably right at US Cellular field. I agree that Chicago’s North side isn’t quite rusty enough for the Rust Belt.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Certainly any of these “boundaries” or cultural lines are filled with shades of gray and very blurry. Also, I have problems categorizing cities like Gary. They are like semi-cities that are just there because of the big city less than 60 miles away. I think of Toledo (Detroit), Akron (Cleveland), and Dayton (Cincinnati) this way. They are separate cities, with plenty of their own issues and identities, but they aren’t really worth categorizing on the larger scale like their big brothers.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Agreed that LA is a hellhole.
Isn’t the supposed NY-ness of a city, or Chicago’s lack of it, mostly a function of when the landmark buildings in these various places were constructed? Jhon, yhou got got anything on this?
The Beaux Arts buildings of the Mall and Public square (Terminal Tower) are derived from the work of McKim Meade and White, the signature NY architecture firm. Walter and Weeks built the CPL and the Fed Reserve on our Mall; Graham Anderson Probst and White the Terminal Tower. Our guys were pretty darned good too, but less acclaimed.
George Post—another NYC architecture hero, designer of the NY Stock exchange among many other NY landmarks—did our Cleveland Trust Rotunda.
Burnham left a big mark on Cleveland and other cities of the Midwest—he’s a Chicago guy. There’s less of his work in NYC.
Chicago and Cleveland and NY all have a lot of overlap among architects working on major projects in the city.
Until recently Cleveland had something like a dozen rowhouses—without the rowhouses, our streetscapes look very little like New York’s. Chicago is much closer in that regard, but of course they have those Frank Lloyd Wright Prarie-style designs here and there, which look out of place in both Cleveland and New York.
Chicago and New York had the skyscraper rivalry going for a while; Cleveland had some tall buildings, but we’ve never been in either league.
Oh, and Chicago built Els shortly after NY, and they nearly had a full on Subway (they have a partial one). Cleveland tried and failed on the subway, and of course we never had Els.
Overall there’s a ton of overlap between the landmarks in Chicago and New York and the architects who worked on them—the built environments of Philly, NYC, and Chicago are most similar—Cleveland a little less so, mostly because of the absence of rapid transit and rowhouses. Our homegrown designers had less success outside the city; we often recruited the best designers from NYC and Chicago for a number of our landmarks. Cleveland, NYC, Philly and Chicago share a lot between the 1880-1950s—not surprising, since this was the top half of the old short list of major centers.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
i was just getting into something as this popped up, which is much better.
one striking difference between any east coast city is the existance of old little buildings from pre-1900. there are virtually none in chicago due to the afformentioned fire at the end of the 19th century. so you can walk around in lots of residential streets in NY, BOS, etc that have some older infastructure that just isn’t left amongst the new stuff in chicago. as a result of the clean slate, streets are wider and more organized. they had the chance to put in service alleys which saves the city from the trash piles set out for collection in front of every building in NY…
Chicago Fire was in 1871, and there are plenty of buildings more than a hundred years old (see Old Town triangle district or Bridgeport). It’s not Beacon Hill, but there are a lot of old buildings. Chicago has a different mentality, which is that the new is typically better than the old, so knock it down and build.
And alleys have been a part of Chicago since its origins.
jhon….maybe you can help me out on this. I’ve always heard that Cleveland was very conservative in the construction of most of its landmark buildings. Basically, they waited to see what was new and well liked in both NYC and Chicago and borrowed from those designs. So very little trend-setting. Is that correct (more or less)?
I totally agree with this. We have a lot of very good buildings by leading architects, and sometimes we’re right on the trends, but typically everything that’s built is 10-15 years behind the cutting edge.
Just one example: the Terminal Tower was built at nearly the same time as the PSFS HQ in Philly, which was inspired by Saarinen’s 2nd place design entry in the Tribune Tower competition (check out the book of entries on this—Adolf Loos has a hilarious submission).
Most critics regarded Saarinen’s entry as the better than the winner (what got built); it made plain what was modern and what was not. The Terminal Tower is another Tribune Tower, essentially, and it’s predecessor was already a little behind the times.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Since the thread is again active, just make note that I confused Saarinen’s entry with Gropius’ in the PSFS comparison. Substitute Gropius in the above paragraph. I corrected myself below, but it gets lost in the shuffle. This was an embarrassing mistake.
If you’re into this sort of thing, there’s a late and insignificant Gropius building around Cleveland that you might have noticed before: Tower East on Chagrin Boulevard. It’s doubtful that he contributed much to the design, but his name is attached to it.
Worked on that job in ‘69 I think for Turner. It was one of many hideous grotesqueries built by Turner Construction back then. The Cleveland Trust Tower, the Art Museum addition, the Investment Plaza on 9th and Prospect – right across from the ol’ Roxy Burleque. Plenty of ugly buildings to go around back then.
But jhon, here’s what I wanns know: who designed the 2 bedroom bungalow that infests Mayfield Hts., Oakwood, Maple Hts. South Euclid etc. My ol’ man built hundres of those little rabbit hutchs for Squires Construction and Forest City after the war. He said they had two prints, one the side door and kitchen were on the left an the other the side door and kitchen were on the right. Now whoever designed these things is the guy who really put his stamp on Cleveland architechture.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I know what you mean. The Star-chitecture is a diversion, and it fits into an international narrative that’s more sexy. Materially speaking it has little to do with Cleveland.
The ones from before the war were likely to have come out of the Sears catalog, or else they were derived from these.
The ones after the war? Shoot, good question. You’re talking about the Levittown template. I know it’s more important that you made your point—a principal that I agree with—but if you’re also a little bit curious I could figure out who’s responsible for these (specifically), or else get as close as possible to that answer.
Chuck, can you just give me a timeline of your life?
How long did you work construction before you went to med school?
Did you get into engineering right after that?
I’m confused by how you’ve done so much stuff. I haven’t done anything.
Adam, it’s all so maudlin I’m somewhat embarrassed. Here’s the highlights with most of the goo removed. My dad died when I was little and my mom hadda stroke Thanksgiving Day six months after I graduated from High School in 1966. Through some family connections I got a job with Turner Construction – check page six. The local Turner VP, Herb Conant, was a friend of the family. He got me a job with Turner and arranged so that I could work full-time and go to college full-time. So that’s how I got so much "experience" – I was going to college studying engineering while I was doing construction work. This was from ’68 to ’72. I took Ochem at Case with the pre-med guys. This is where I discovered that they weren’t all that sharp, so on a whim I applied for medical school. Back then – and probably now too – in-state applicants were given preference so I was limited to applying to Ohio schools. The head of CWRU’s admission committee had a thing against Case engineers so I didn’t even bother to apply to CWRU. In fact OSU was the only med school I applied to. Much to my surprise I got accepted to OSU and started their three year program – that’s right they had a three year, 36 month program back then – in June of ’72. Any way I became disenchanted with medicine and went back to engineering – bounced around the US and the Pacific Rim and now I’m back in Maui working for Boeing at their Groundbased Missile Defense facility on top of a volcano. Maybe one of these days we’ll sit down and I’ll give you the details.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
by mauichuck on Jan 7, 2009 1:53 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I’m Andrew. Adam’s the one with the skull.
The concurrent work-college clears things up.
I sure as hell hope we get to sit down sometime. I will further erode your belief in the younger generation.
I’d like to get set up with a Turner gig too. ‘Course I didn’t get up at 5 am this morning. Made it to my desk, oh, about 9:05.
jhon,
Why is it that sometimes it’s unclear who worked on a project? If whoever built Tower East hired Gropius to design it, and Gropius farmed it out to a junior partner, wouldn’t the developer complain? I never could figure out the disputes about whether Sullivan or Wright designed this or that, or whether such and such a building was designed by Mies or his draftsmen. How come these aren’t more clearly defined?
Gropius is named as the “principal-in-charge” at the Architect’s Collaborative for this one, but he was in his 80s and probably couldn’t pick up a pen. He might have been in the room while some major decisions were being made; his name got them the commission in the first place. What assistance did he offer, if any? Technical? Spiritual? Beats me.
It appears the developer got what they wanted, at least from the architects. A squarish open plan = lots of rentable sq. ft = $$$.
I’ll have to continue this thought at another time. sbricker would know more that I do about working with developers and on larger projects. If a developer / client really wants to control everything, then the Architect will either pass it along or, if he/she needs the cash emotionally disown the project and mail it in. It’s just like anything else. If it sucks, you mail it in.
You’re in Chicago, right odradek? I assume you’re talking about the Rookery. I forget the story there. Both Wright and Sullivan worked on it, right?
You know the AMAH Building, right? That late 80s high-rise near the river opposite N. Wacker. The developers recruited Kenzo Tange for the name recognition. He’s a National Treasure in Japan, and one of the best architects of the last century.
Tange had all these ideas for it, but the developers beat them all back. His formal contribution is the little notch in the top of it, and very little else. He probably influenced the material choices and connections, but there’s very little of his artistic stamp in it. The developer has much more to do with the look of this project than the architect. Tange would have been grateful for the work, no doubt, but the result was not among his proudest accomplishments.
Not everything is a Ronchamp. So, my answer to your question is that it depends on the type of project. If it’s a library, a Cathedral, or another Public building, the architect has more liberty and he or she will take ownership of the project. If it’s a speculative high rise, the result will be largely out of his or her control, and the architect is less likely to be totally immersed in the creative aspects of the building (if they’re even invited to make creative choices at all).
Thanks, jhon, that makes sense. I am in Chicago and know the Tange building at State and Grand. I actually like the interior of that building a lot. I didn’t know Tange was pushed around with that project. The dynamic these days seems to be the developers call the shots and the architects jump.
I wasn’t thinking of the Rookery—that was designed by one of my favorites, John Root, and Wright did a renovation ten or 20 years later (and contributed the amazing courtyard)—but more of the Charnley House, which Sullivan is credited for but Wright worked on. So of course Wright took as much credit as he could for it.
And the Mies apartments on Lake Shore. Mies did the two original buildings in 1948 or something, and then two more buildings were built just north of the originals. But the two later buildings were supposedly designed by another Japanese architect in Mies’ firm whose name I have forgotten (Fukuyama?). Even though these two buildings look perfectly Miesian—and are amazing—they are supposedly less authentic because Mies didn’t do the sketchwork or whatever.
+1, though I’ve often wondered if Loos’ could have been built. I’ve had people tell me he was serious. And PSFS is great.
I guess it’s possible, but it’s a dangerous looking cornice. Ricardo Bofill did something like this, but at a very different scale.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Hah. He’s not too well liked these days. Most architects I know have all sorts of design opinions; when it comes to more contemporary works I’m not really one of them, perhaps because I wind up working on so many mediocre projects myself. I like just about any well built buildings. I hardly care what anything modern looks like, but I’m impressed when a building functions well. I’ve seen some of Bofill’s housing complexes in person. I thought they were kind of nice.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Sometimes it’s better to show than it is to tell:
Look familiar?
That’s McKim, Meade & White’s ~1914 Municipal Building in New York. +14 years later, we’d get ours.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
by jhon on Dec 22, 2008 8:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
just an FYI, Chicago’s nickname as the Second City has nothing to do with a ranking or New York. It has to do with it’s almost complete rebuild after it burnt to the ground. while i’m at it, it’s not called the Windy City for the weather, but for its politicians.
while i’m at it, it’s not called the Windy City for the weather, but for its politicians.
I’ve always heard that, too, but then I read an article (can’t remember where) which refutes that myth and claims the nickname does come from the weather, not windy politicians. They looked back at the references to Chicago as the Windy City and showed that the first references were about the weather. Someone did make a reference to long-winded politicians but that was later.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
Here is one article I found which supports my claim. The first known record of Chicago as the Windy City came in 1885 from the Chicago Tribune trying to promote the city by referencing the cool breezes off of Lake Michigan in the summer.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 7:00 PM EST up reply actions
More interesting notes about the Windy City. This Wikipedia article mentions that the name might also have to do with Chicago’s rivalry with Cincinnati (really? Chicago had a rivalry with Cincinnati?). They were both growing cities in the 1860’s and 1870’s. Cincinnati was a big meatpacking center but Chicago overtook them and stole the nickname “Porkopolis.” Cincinnati papers called Chicago the Windy City because it was full of bluster.
But there was also a baseball aspect of this rivalry. Cincinnati had the best baseball team, called the Red Stockings, so Chicago called their team the White Stockings to compete with them. I did not know that — very interesting. I always assumed that the White Sox name had something to do with the Red Sox name, but I guess it does not.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 7:10 PM EST up reply actions
Cincinnati, as the Queen City, was in the running as the metropolis of the West. Its location on the Ohio made it suited for steamboat and river travel. When railroads came along, Chicago was better situated.
Also, I’ve always believed Windy City was a New York term not about politicians but about the blowhard boosterism of the Chitown press.
Charles Dana, New York Sun, 1893: “pay no attention to claims from that windy city.” Although I see lots of stuff to dispute this quote as the origin.
Yeah, that quote is talked about in the links above, I think. That’s why the myth got started about Chicago being the Windy City because of its politicians. But further research showed earlier citiations referencing the winds off Lake Michigan, as I noted above.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 7:44 PM EST up reply actions
Much as I like Joe’s work, I think he’s really got it wrong on this one.
Cleveland is not oriented towards New York any more than any other industrial big city in the U.S. Having the largest building outside of New York is just a statement of fact, not a reflection of orientation. If you want to see a city where the shadow of New York is viscerally part of the psyche, spend a year in Philly sometime. New York seems like a million miles away while you’re in Cleveland, but not in Philly. Cleveland references New York City only in the sense that every U.S. city references New York City to some extent, especially East of the Mississippi.
Cleveland is in so many ways the city that almost was. It should have been a more significant industrial center, but Henry Ford set up camp in Detroit. Had Ford been in Cleveland, the advertising world could have ended up centered there, too — as it is, it ended up being about as culturally significant as Chicago despite being a much smaller town.
Early in the century, there was an expectation that Cleveland would become much bigger than it did, and that expectation fueled the construction of a lot of the “little New York” stuff that Posnanski writes about. And that stuff — the old banks, the great cultural institutions — is truly beautiful, and it’s the reason why Cleveland is never more than a few good breaks away from being a great American city again.
Steinbrenner is not a typical Cleveland guy by my reckoning. I don’t think of Cleveland guys as especially hungry for glory or monomaniacal. I think of Cleveland as on the one hand the cultural center of Ohio and much of the midwest, and on the other hand as a much more down-to-Earth big city than anything you can find from Boston to D.C.
by Jay on Dec 19, 2008 5:47 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
Extremely well-said. Rec.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 19, 2008 7:52 PM EST up reply actions
A more typical Cleveland guy: John D. Rockefeller.
Cleveland was the first petro-industrial city in the world.
Cleveland was the first petro-industrial city in the world.
Baku (Azerbaijan) had Cleveland beat by a decade or two
Having spent many years living between DC, Philly, and Boston, I can speak with as much experience as anyone about the merits of each place – especially in relation to Cleveland. Maybe I am not able to do it with much eloquence or clarity, but I comprehend the differences of each. Philly certainly has a competitive complex with New York, but that arises from disgust that New York does not show Philly the respect it deserves. Therefore, if Philly is oriented toward New York, it is doing so because Philly is giving New York the finger. (Boston, meanwhile, is too aloof and parochial to understand any of this).
As for being a city that was almost there – that is not quite right. Cleveland was there. The time might have been fleeting, but Cleveland held a place of high standing among cities – it’s one of the 12 Federal Reserve Banks for crying out loud. Cleveland faced the challenge, though, of having no natural geographic (i.e., transportation) benefit. It’s growth arose from a man-made geographic feature (a canal). Detroit, on the other hand, is a well-placed port, as is Chicago. Adding to the happenstance nature of Cleveland’s growth, the city rose to to be prominent between 1850 and 1950 as a key cog in the industrial revolution. The timing was simply right. So, I don’t think Cleveland is a few breaks from being a great American city again (depending on how you define "great"). The city’s economic zenith has passed and the opportunities are limited to healthcare and manufacturing (we still need machinery), though they can maintain the economy.
It’s all about the history, though. New York was the primary financial and transportation node connecting Cleveland to the rest of the world back in the 19th century. Boston, Philly, DC – all of these cities have histories unto themselves. Their relationship with New York is born out of competition to be the eastern geographic capital. Cleveland, on the other hand, grew as a dependent of New York and never competed with the city (heck, Cleveland was founded in 1796 by Connecticut surveyors, when New York was the nation’s capital. Detroit and Chicago were founded by the French around 1700). Cleveland knew it could never overtake New York (that’s the whole point of being “a plum”). I believe the historical relationship makes for something unique between Cleveland and New York.
I think I misspoke when saying Cleveland and New York have a sibling relationship – but it is still familial since they share a bloodline (unlike Boston, New York and Philly). And having also lived near Cincinnati for a time, I can say that Cinci lacks any orientation toward New York (just ask Robert Mapplethorpe), and all other cities west of Cleveland are oriented toward Detroit or Chicago.
Cleveland is the acorn that fell far from New York’s tree. It’s got everything self-contained and maintains great local traditions that the city enjoys for itself. As for Philly, it is the city I love most but, alas, I am stuck in Boston – and don’t get me started on a rant about Boston…
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
Oooooh, I hate Boston! Go ahead, get started. It isn’t taboo to talk bad about a city and it’s policies on LGT when that city is Boston, right Jay?
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 20, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
I like New York better than Boston. Boston’s pretty cool, but, I mean, ultimately, why live in Boston? It’s a lot like Philly but with more white people, and the food isn’t as good, and it’s colder. New York City, while not where I’d want to live, has things to offer that no other city really has. And you know something? People have always been very nice and polite to me in New York.
It’s a lot like Philly but with more white people, and the food isn’t as good, and it’s colder.
In my brief time here in Boston, I can’t disagree with this too much…that said I like Boston so far. More than Philly, there is an intensely large academic community here.
Everyone has different ideas about various cities. Having lived in both Boston and Philly, I don’t really think there is any comparison. I could not wait to leave Philly (I was there for 25 years) and get back to Boston. Why? Here are a few reasons: 1) a much higher % of the city is safe and teeming with people at all hours (as a result the crime rate is much lower), particularly young people. 2) Both places have a sister city across the river that starts with Cam… – and that is where the similarities end. 3) IMHO Boston is much more entreprenurial and forward-thinking – this results in an economy which is much stronger and future-oriented with significant strengths in biotech, infotech, alternative energy and finance. The result is that it is one of the metro areas least affected by the current super-recession (eg., housing prices have held steady over the last year) and most likely to benefit from the coming economic stimulus package. I could go on, but I will say that I would rather live in Philly than Cleveland right now.
by CaptainPenny on Jan 5, 2009 10:15 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, opportunities are seemingly limited, but they exist for Cleveland and all of the forlorn cities of the Great Lakes. If enough people in Cleveland decide to be industrious and do stuff, something will come of that. I don’t know what it’ll be, but there’s reason to hope. I live in DC, and I’ve lived in New York. I’ve always seen good value in Cleveland. One of these days.
I wasn’t aware that Cleveland is worse off as a port than Detroit, Chicago, or for that matter Toledo or Ashtabula. Geographically speaking, Buffalo would seem to have the most going for it between its port and the hydro-electric power. Chicago has a more advantageous relationship to its hinterlands, as it is accessible to the “breadbasket” of America. I’m not sure how much geography matters in this discussion, but nothing was more important to industrial development than the railroads. Cleveland had its share. Chicago, of course, was absolutely choc-a-bloc with railroads.
Jay’s right on that New York promoters made Chicago what it has become. It’s not that Cleveland doesn’t have a connection, but that it isn’t worth mentioning if we ignore the relationships between New York other city’s. Chicago and Philadelphia are certainly stronger.
Even still, there are lots of little connections and similarities, if you’re looking for them. You can go to the West Side Market and see Guastivino tiled vaults. Shaker Heights and Bronxville have similar looking Tudor mansions. Bruce Ratner’s behind one of the most significant developments in New York. Robert Moses applied for work in Cleveland nearing the turning point in his career. (Moses didn’t get the job for unknown reasons; he was exceedingly well qualified for any job. Cleveland—then a very progressive city—was a natural destination for a reformer like Moses who’d up to that point failed to establish himself in his hometown.)
Jay, I’m puzzled at the Ford connection. I didn’t think it was any question that Ford would get started in Detroit; there was a considerable amount of doubt that it would happen at all for Ford. Ford was all ready old and entrenched when his car company took off. Was there an opportunity when they moved out of Highland Heights and into the River Rouge plant? Perhaps if one of Cleveland’s homegrown car companies had our James Couzens.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Even still, there are lots of little connections and similarities, if you’re looking for them.
Isn’t that true of every American city compared to New York? That’s where this whole thing falls apart for me. It’s like saying “A dog and a bear are similar.” Well, ok. But so are a dog and a cat. Or a dog and a horse.
Totally. If I’ve decided that I’m going to write about how New York and Cleveland are more similar than one might think, I could have all kinds of fun picking up little details like these. But it’s not rigorous or instructive. These are “don’tchaknow” pieces. There is no point.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
perhaps. But the point of this is looking at it through a Clevelander’s perspective. That’s where the similarities matter and how we can relate to NY is something of interest. If people from Philly also relate to NY, great. Chicago? I don’t really believe it, but I also don’t really know if it means anything to me. I’m not sure how unique the similarities are, but to a Clevelander, I do believe they are significant.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Great post. I basically agree with everything you said, and wsh I had read your post before posting myself. The only part I disagree with slightly is that Clevelanders have always suffered from wanting to be the city they felt destined to become back in the early 20th century. Part of the city’s problem is that they have never been willing to accept their place — especially the people with money in this town. The old timers never understood that the Orchestra and Art Museum were an aberration. I am not saying people shouldn’t dream big, but right now the town needs to market itself as more of a nichey kind of town, not one that is seriously competing with the big boys. The plum thing was stupid in that it even mentioned New York. But back then city leaders were even further from seeing the truth than they are now.
Also! Having lived in Cincinnati for a stretch I completely agree that it has far less orientation toward New York than Cleveland. It was pronounced enough that, despite growing up in suburban Akron, I actually found it difficult to relate to the culture there. That said, Cincy has always had an edgier music and modern art scene than Cleveland . (For instance, Cleveland never had anything quite like the punk scene that existed on Short Vine in the 80’s.) It’s a much smaller community, but because of the overall conservative lean down there, the counterculture is a bit more extreme.
I’d give you the edgier modern music scene and maybe modern art. But it certainly has no Northeast in the feel or the culture of the city like Cleveland does. Cincinnati is an interesting mix of midwestern and southern cultures. Leads to a neat town with some definite character. Too conservative for me, and the counterculture that you mention is alive, but not as pronounced as the 80’s must have been.
(I don’t know what it was like in the 80’s. I lived there the last 3 years).
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Well timed use of “Also!”
I’ve spent a lot of time in both places. Like you’ve said, if the counterculture is less extreme, it’s because the all-around social life of Cincinnati is so staid. Cleveland is significantly more cosmopolitan, and we haven’t had a race riot in the 21st century either.
I think Cincy’s an OK place, but I much prefer Cleveland.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Cleveland never had anything quite like the punk scene that existed on Short Vine in the 80’s.
I disagree. Pere Ubu, the Dead Boys, Devo, Electric Eels are bands that are recognized globally as punk. Maybe by the 1980s everyone had moved to New York, but in the mid-1970s Pirate’s Cove, etc. were way ahead of anything Corryville ever had.
Cleveland faced the challenge, though, of having no natural geographic (i.e., transportation) benefit. It’s growth arose from a man-made geographic feature (a canal).
Growing up in Sandusky, I know several people that believe Sandusky should have been “the” city and “the” port on this side of Lake Erie. The Sandusky Bay and Lake Erie make for a wonderful natural port. Cleveland was able to make their own port and get the canal through politics and back room deals, according to the more spiteful Sanduskians. Sandusky was settled before Cleveland.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions
But would there be no Cedar Point? If so, I’m glad that never happened.
That’s very interesting. The Sandusky/Marblehead/Catawba Island area is a popular vacation destination for many in Ohio. I wonder if that would not be as great if Sandusky grew in to what Cleveland became. This would have certainly made my life growing up in Norwalk much different; that would have been a major suburb of Sandusky.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 6:16 PM EST up reply actions
Same with me. I actually grew up in Huron. (though went to high school and worked and was in Sandusky whenever possible)
Where did you go to high school?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
That’s what I figured. I went to St. Paul, so we were big rivals. I graduated in ‘97, how about you? I remember how you guys beat us in football for like 12 consecutive years, even when we had really good teams. Then finally about my junior year we finally beat you, then the tables were turned and you guys couldn’t beat us.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 23, 2008 9:27 AM EST up reply actions
yeah, I graduated in ’01. I think we won 1 of the 4 games while I was there. I know you guys had a hell of a team this year. And we just won 1 game.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 23, 2008 10:46 AM EST up reply actions
You forgot “should have been the capital.”
by fleerdon on Dec 20, 2008 12:35 PM EST up reply actions
It’s really pretty simple: Joe Posnanski just doesn’t understand Cleveland or what Cleveland’s all about. He’s from South Euclid, don’t you know.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
That’s a technicality, Cleveland city limits are very close in. Probably 70% of Philadelphia proper is farther from the center of the city than South Euclid is from Cleveland. (Disclaimer: I have no idea actually.)
Your theory on Joe does gain some credence with this piece, however.
I read Chuck’s statement as a joke about Cleveland’s intra-community rivalries, something we very loosely have in common with New York (like Brooklyn vs. Queens, East side vs. West, etc.)
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Oh, sure. Fairlawn is about the size of Wasilla.
by Jay on Dec 22, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
From Fairlawn’s website:
Today, the city shines like a star. Fairlawn continues to explore new ideas and possibilities to improve and preserve the fine qualities of the community.Heck yeah, Akron has suburbs – I still have strangely bad feelings for the other suburbs from the Suburban League many decades later.Fairlawn has become a bright example among progressive communities — a star that truly shows its brilliance each and every day.
by FredOx on Dec 22, 2008 3:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Let me clarify. Joe Posnanski left Cleveland during his early adolescence for North Carolina, I believe. His recollections of Cleveland and what it means to be a Clevelander are those of a suburban white boy. Every thing he writes about Cleveland screams this. The thing that makes Cleveland, Cleveland is its working class roots. It’s not its art or its academic or "cultural" institutions that define Cleveland, it’s its blue collar ethos. Joe Posnanski never experienced that side of Cleveland. He never belonged to a union, he never worked with his hands, he never got drunk on W25th St. In short, he missed the most important parts of the Cleveland experience that shapes every Cleveland guy I know.
If they blew up University Circle and all of the architectural wonders inside the city tomorrow, Cleveland would still be Cleveland. But you shut down the steel mills, and the stamping plants and the refineries and the Cleveland that is left is not the same as the Cleveland we all celebrate.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
The thing that makes Cleveland, Cleveland is its working class roots. It’s not its art or its academic or “cultural” institutions that define Cleveland, it’s its blue collar ethos.
That’s just your opinion, and frankly, it’s an exceptionally narrow opinion. A lot of things make up a great city,
If they blew up University Circle and all of the architectural wonders inside the city tomorrow, Cleveland would still be Cleveland.
That is just not true. Cleveland would be a much less special city, especially among others of its size, were it not for its cultural and academic richness. Cleveland is a cool city precisely because its core is a true midwestern, working class ethic … and then it also has the Cleveland Orchestra.
That’s your Cleveland. Of course, someone that has those roots are going to look at Cleveland through that. On the other had, the steel mills and stamping plants have been in jeopardy for decades and perhaps now more than ever. The manufacturing core has to and has begun to transition to something else. Cleveland may not be the same Cleveland that you celebrate, but its going to change regardless. The cultural, academic, medical and sports core is still the same though. And those institutions are growing.
Hopefully we can begin making new things, with our hands, in Northeast Ohio. But don’t kid yourself into thinking that a manufacturing, blue collar population is all that Cleveland has to offer.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 24, 2008 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
It’s hard to get anything past you guys, isn’t it? Of course the stamping plants are gone or going, hell they tore down the Sohio refinery decades ago. And the mill? Why the mill is owned by a furreiner, for chrisakes. The ol’ “You Gotta Be Tough” Cleveland left in about 1982. What’s left is not the town that built that reputation.
And Jay,
Cleveland would be a much less special city………… were it not for its cultural and academic richness.
is “just your opinion” too. What, can’t I have an opinion also?
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Forgot to add: Scott Raab is the writer Posnanski thinks he is – only more elequent.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
First, of course you can have an opinion. And I can have an opinion. And we can have opinions about one another’s opinions. And all of this goes better with beer and a ballgame. Nuff said.
As for Scott and Joe, I am a big fan of the work of both men, but Scott mainly profiles celebrities for periodic major magazine features, while Joe mainly writes about baseball and apparently turns in about 20 stories, columns, blog entries and book chapters per week. They are two very different animals in many ways and both very fine writers. We appreciate them for different reasons, and that they are also different types of Clevelander is not that big of a deal to anyone but you.
Jay you sell my friend Mr. Raab short. Sure he does a lot of celebrity features, cuz that’s what pays the rent. But did you read his five-parter on the World Trade Center? That’s the most comprehensive, insightful, intelligent piece on that subject I have ever read.
Posnanski is the Willy Pep of feature writers. Flashy, cute and prolific, but in the end he’s still a lightweight. My boy Scott is like Rocky Marciano. He’s got that big punch and is just knocking out the palookas they put in front of him.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
What are you talking about?? Posnanski is no lightweight, and he’s certainly not “flashy” or “cute.” He’s one of the best sportswriters in the country, and on top of that he write a very entertaining blog. I respect him because he’s one of the few sportswriters who actually uses his brain; he’s doesn’t spew out the nonsense you get from most of them but actually talks about Win Shares and OPS+. And I love reading his stories about growing up a Cleveland sports fan because I (and we all) can relate to those. I don’t care if you don’t think he’s “true Clevelander” because I’m not a Clevelander either. Most Indians fans never lived in Cleveland, anyways.
Posnanski’s an excellent writer, also. He could make anything interesting. I read “The Soul of Baseball” and it was fantastic. He is definately NOT a lightweight.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 25, 2008 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
What am I talking about? What am I talking about? Why I’m talking about this piece of drivel of course. Look, Posnanski maybe – maybe – a decent sportswriter. And yeah, he uses some of the stats you’re fond of. That’s not what I was saying. What I’m saying is this: Posnanski has no more idea what it’s like to be a Cleveland native than he knows what it’s like to be a Tibetan monk. And there’s nothing inherently wrong with being a lightweight writer, after all folks like J. K. Rowling and Tom Clancy have done quite well for themselves writing fluff. It’s when Posnanski steps outside of the sports arena that I object, and I really oppose any attempt he makes to define what the Cleveland experience is. His little sappy ode to Buck O’Neill, "The Soul of Baseball", I find to be a trite tearjerker. But there’s nothing wrong with trite tearjerkers. Just don’t try to convince me that it’s "To Kill A Mockingbird".
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
You and odrarek have holes in your heads. You rather transparently have allowed your views of him as a “true blue Clevelander” saturate everything you think about him as a writer. He’s a newspaper sportswriter, occasional magazine writer, book author and blogger. The roles have different demands, but one thing that’s certain is that Joe is a very celebrated sports writer, and Scott himself would tell you that Joe is one of the best if no the very best at what he does. This isn’t about comparing the two guys, my whole point is that they’re doing quite different things, and it does neither guy justice to try to draw direct comparisons between a daily column and a magazine feature that gets labored over for weeks. I suspect that they could swap gigs and both do very well, but I also would guess that neither guy would want to swap.
As for Joe’s “trademark digressions,” those are on his blog, not so much in his newspaper columns, and what is more definitive of the blog medium than digressions? What is incredible is that he has an active blog despite his substantial professional output, and it feels like a blog and is unabashedly a blog, and a very damned good one, too. I mean, seriously, isn’t it nice to have one really well written baseball blog that isn’t just YET ANOTHER statistical rehash?
Let me get a side issues outta the way first. This piece is Exhibit “A” for why I don’t like Joe Posnanski. It’s glib, well crafted, and maybe even artful but Posnanski demonstrates all the insight of a pimply-faced adolescent. In short Joe Posnanski is the Norman Rockwell of writing. Lot’s of technical skill but no profundity. But that’s OK, just as long as he sticks with fluff.
As to the comparison between Scott and Posnanski, well both are writers, both were born in Cleveland and both are masters at their craft. Both call themselves "Cleveland guys". Raab’s the real deal; Posnanski’s a fraud.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I think it’s silly and frankly immature to use the word “fraud” here. Posnanski has never claimed to meet your specific definition of “Cleveland guy,” and that term would not be commonly understood to mean what you say it means. There’s no fraud without intent, Chuck. He’s a guy from Cleveland, but he’s never pretended to be the type of Clevelander that you happen to enjoy romanticizing.
nothing better than a chuck-jay fight. on christmas no less.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 26, 2008 12:01 AM EST up reply actions
I’ll step aside and let you two wrestle over JP’s Clevelandness. And those are obviously valid points about blogging and magazine writing being different venues.
Here is what I take exception to:
“One thing that’s certain is that Joe is a very celebrated sports writer, and Scott himself would tell you that Joe is one of the best if not the very best at what he does.”Is he a “very celebrated sports writer”? Really? I am missing something if so. Is he the “very best at what he does”? If by this you mean a blogger, okay, maybe that’s right.
If you mean sports writer, surely there are better ones around. Jason Whitlock, who also writes for the Star, for one.
Sports writers, to me, can excel in two ways: As someone with a lot of great sources (Gammons for example), a great reporter with a shrewd eye. The other is a stylist (Red Smith, Jimmy Cannon). There aren’t too many of the latter anymore because no one has to be poetic about the Kentucky Derby: everybody just watches it themselves on TV.
To each his own, but I can’t be bothered with Posnanski’s stuff. It’s too mannered, and he lacks the quality of a Red Smith. That’s unfair, though. It’s like comparing John McDonald to Honus Wagner. There are plenty of writers I love to read online, but not many sports writers (other than the informational Gammons type).
Three things.
One, I assume you’re not taking exception to my saying what Scott would tell you. Scott has very high standards for writing, and he made it quite clear to me that he’s a fan of Joe’s. I don’t think I’m betraying any confidences there.
Two, the leading national sports journalism group, Associated Press Sports Editors, gives out awards to sports writers every year. Posnanski was named the best sports columnist in the nation in 2002 and 2005, and he was named the best sports feature writer in 2003, and he’s had many other top-five and top-ten finishes in both categories this decade. I can’t tell you definitively that nobody else has won more of these in recent years, but it isn’t possible that several people have.
Three, if you polled the regular readers of any analytically inclined baseball website, asking, “Who is the best (or your favorite) baseball writer working for a newspaper?” Joe would win in a landslide.
Does this make him definitely, whatever, anything? No, and that’s not the point. The point is, as I said, he is quite celebrated, and as I said, many people feel that he’s one of the very best or THE best at what he does. I believe both of those statements can be taken as fact, in that they are well supported by evidence.
Okay?
I can’t believe Joe’s talent is being questioned. John McDonald? Try A-Rod. He may or may not be the best ever, but he is certainly amongst the very best of his era. Joe speaks to what he knows. That includes baseball. And it includes Cleveland. Is it the exact same part of the Cleveland area you grew up in, Chuck? Maybe not. Is it the same era? no. But he has well written and intriguing stories on Bob Feller, Herb Score, Woody Hayes and others that we all grew up with hearing stories about. He appeals to the senses of those that share any or all of his interests: Cleveland baseball, Cleveland generally, Negro League baseball, Bruce Springsteen, baseball history, Kansas City Sports, etc. etc.
Is he the authority on any of those topics? no. But he is a newspaper writer/columnist/blogger. And he does a great job in giving a voice to those that share his interests in a well-styled and compelling way.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 26, 2008 10:51 AM EST up reply actions
First off I never said that Posnanski couldn’t write. In fact I’m enthralled with his writing style. He’s witty, inventive and capable of conjuring up vivid images with his prose. I thought that I made it clear that I enjoy his sports writing, just like I occasionally enjoy a Tom Clancy potboiler. What I said is that he couldn’t think. There’s a difference. I also didn’t deny that Posnanski is a well-respected sportswriter. That would be foolish. What I said was that Posnanski is an epic failure any time he writes about Cleveland and his article at the top of this blog proves it.
Look, whenever Cleveland is mentioned what are the first two things that come up? The art museum? The orchestra? The Emerald Necklace? Graham Anderson Probst and White? No, it’s the river catching fire and that Cleveland is a "blue collar" town. You know, like in the Browns are a real "blue collar" team. That’s our image and a damn good one at that. Posnanski repeatedly wraps himself in that dated image of Cleveland and Clevelanders. You know, a guy who’s been inured by hard times in a hard town. Bull!
Picking George Steinbrenner – a Culver Military School graduate for chrissakes – to represent the "Soul of Cleveland" is moronic. Marone, Steinbrenner could have just as easily been raised in Greenwich Connecticut. It is just another example of Posnanski’s lack of insight about Cleveland and Clevelanders.
And yeah Dave, Posnanski lived about five miles from me during “the same era” – when the refinery was running, the mill had three shifts and the stamping plants were looking for apprentices – waaaaaaaaay back then. Only he left before high school – I didn’t.
And of course my view of Cleveland is dated, but it’s in keeping with our image – the one that Posnanski references whenever he writes about Cleveland. I don’t really have a problem with Posnanski, just as long as he sticks to writing about sports and high-calorie junk food. I only get irate when he writes about my hometown.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Alright, well we just disagree about the last part, which is simply a repeat of our disagreement further upthread: that your Cleveland is not everyone’s Cleveland. And that, for some, the Cleveland Orchestra is part of the soul of Cleveland.
Cleveland’s relationship with New York, though, always seemed just a little bit different to me, it always seemed that of a little brother or sister who wanted to wear the same clothes. Growing up, I can remember hearing about New York every week in one way or another. Someone would mention that, for many years, the Terminal Tower was the tallest building in America* … you know, outside of New York. Playhouse Square was (and is) the second largest performance arts center … after Lincoln Center in New York. There’s a big fashion week in Cleveland, one of the biggest in the country, probably THE biggest outside of, well, New York. The Cleveland Orchestra has always been one of the best in America, right there with the New York Philharmonic. Little Italy in Cleveland had food about as good as you could find outside of Little Italy in New York. And I cannot even tell you how many times I heard growing up that the collection in the Cleveland Museum of Art was as good as anything you might see in New York City.
That very much describes how I view Cleveland’s relationship with New York. I have heard each of these things that Joe mentions from Clevelanders just in the last few years. Its how the city, and many of its residents, like to portray itself. Maybe you don’t care about some of this stuff, but when trying to get a sense of your favorite city’s place in the scape of all cities in the USA, this is what you do, you compare it to New York. And that’s what Clevelanders, that I know, do.
He appeals to the senses of those that share any or all of his interests: Cleveland baseball, Cleveland generally, Negro League baseball, Bruce Springsteen, baseball history, Kansas City Sports, etc. etc.
Well Dayton, I am interested in all of these except the Boss, and I don’t care for Posnanski. He doesn’t appeal to me, that’s all.
I don’t think Posnanski is a great sportswriter because he “uses some of the stats I’m fond of”’ — please give me more credit than that. You think once a writer mentions VORP I start foaming at the mouth and proclaim his greatness? Posnanski is a great sportswriter because he actually looks at things objectively with good analysis as opposed to most who just make up whatever they feel like writing and proclaim it to be true. Plus, I find his writing style very interesting and easy to read, and he can tell a good story. His blog is a must-read for me (and many of my friends).
Also, your definition of a “true Clevelander” is quite narrow and I wonder just how many people would fit that defintion. His Cleveland experience may not be the same as yours, but who declared yours to be the true and only Cleveland experience? Not everyone who grew up in Cleveland worked in steel mills or refineries and got in bar fights on the weekends. Does that mean those people aren’t “true Clevelanders”?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 26, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
“Also, your definition of a "true Clevelander" is quite narrow and I wonder just how many people would fit that defintion.”
I also wonder, but I have some idea:
There was a minority of true Clevelanders back then, and there are no such creature today. Good riddance.
This is tantamount to a True Yankee show.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Well my guys are either going or gone. What’s left is a dying town – it’ll be Youngstown in less than a decade. It once was a hell of a place and it’s the town that the guys you’re saying “Good riddance” to built. Hope you like what’s left.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I want it to not suck too, but I’m not wired to waste a moment pining for the life of yesteryear.
My biggest concerns are practical. As near as my family home is to downtown, it should have been much easier to get back home from the Q using public transit than it was. RTA ultimately got the job done, but only because I was so determined to use it on principle. I know it’s Christmas and all, but that’s how it works in a real city.
Helium Watch: Chuck Lofgren, OF
Reminiscing about the city’s better days is not the same thing as “wasting time” pining for yesteryear. I see no reason while you can’t simultaneously acknowledge and embrace the rich history of the city like Chuck has while still striving to change and make a difference. the two aren’t mutually exclusive.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know what to say to you about this.
I suggest you read the Cleveland history books that I’ve lent you.
Is it necessary to be this condescending?
We clearly both agree that there is a lot of improvement that needs to be made in Cleveland, and I’m not even close to qualified when it comes to figuring out exactly what that is, and that is why I plan on going back to school and getting further educated. My only real point here is that you should neither dwell on some rose-colored version of the past as nor wholly dismiss the city’s past with an “I know better now” attitude.
I’m not an expert, but I’m intelligent enough to know that there’s a gray area here.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Ok, well, clearly we agree then. Your admonition tells me that you haven’t paid attention the dozens of times we’ve been over this. That, Phil, is why I’m condescending. Who do you know who cares more about the history of the city while remaining optimistic about its future? I’ve never called Cleveland dead or dying. If there’s an issue worth taking up, start there.
In the Cleveland of the future, past, and present there’s a place for you and me and Joe Posnanski and Chuck and anyone else.
And yeah, I say good riddance to those imaginary Clevelanders whom we’ve never even met. Damn right.
If you were concerned about history, you’d prove who these people were and what made them so great (or not so great). I want names, dates, and places. Fact from fiction. Let’s see some real work.
(But not here on LGT).
You want to start with a name?
How about Urban M. Sbrocco — my grandfather. Born the son of Italian immigrants to Cleveland, raised in Cleveland and lived in Cleveland his whole life. Oh, except for those two years where he was off fighting WWII. Worked on the assembly line at White Motor company for 40+ years. Busted his butt, every day to maintain the things he truly cared for — his family, his home, his city. Just like most of the people he grew up with in Collinwood. That may seem like schlocky romanticizing about the rust belt, but my grandfather was an honest, decent man. He didn’t build skyscrapers or endow the city with wealth, but he was part of the core or the city, and I respected the hell out of him.
In the future, I’d ask you kindly to not dismiss folks like my grandfather who made up a good percentage of what Chuck may refer to as “true Clevelanders.” I’m sorry people like my grandfather seem like a distant fantasy to you, but they existed. I’ve got the dogtags around my neck to prove it.
Look, don’t act like I’ve never paid attention to what you say about Cleveland. I have always deferred to your expertise and gladly acknowledged that my depth of knowledge about the city can’t compare to yours. But I’d appreciate if you didn’t act like my perspective is somehow invalid because it is shaped by a different experience..
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 3:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know what your perspective is if you don’t share it.
Thanks for the story about your grandfather. I’d like to hear more.
That’s the thing, there’s not much more to it. My grandfather was largely an unremarkable person, like many of his generation. He got up, he went to work, he came home, he went bowling, he went to Knights of Columbus meetings, etc.
I guess I just feel like you’re a bit quick to dismiss Chuck’s notion of the “everyman” as some kind of nostalgic mumbo-jumbo, but to me the “everyman” is very real, and my grandfather was one. Unremarkable, lower-middle class, factory worker in post-war Cleveland. They were a dime a dozen — virtually all of my grandparents’ friends. Some would give you the shirt off their back, some beat their wives, but all of them were real and that is what Cleveland has always meant to me.
You know me well enough to know that I wouldn’t suggest for a second that a return to manufacturing is what is best for the city, but I’ve always felt it important to look back fondly on men and women like my grandparents that made the city what it is, even while acknowledging that it’s time to move forward. Hell, the sudden boom in calls for mass transit development isn’t exactly new — Cleveland used to be bustling with streetcars and trolleys. I just feel like there will always be something we can learn from the past.
Your argument here strikes me like the argument of a stone-cold SABR analyst that decries any idea of the psychological and mental aspects of baseball. Chuck here, perhaps, is playing the role of the Buzz Bissinger type. I’m going for more of the Posnaski approach which, for better or worse, is something I see as a rational middle ground.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions
The streetcars and trolleys would have been built by private corporations. Maybe the city took them over and leased them to other companies—that often happened. I actually don’t know the history there by heart.
Like you, I hope and scheme for a better future. I don’t know what else to do.
I’ve gotta get back to work here, Phil.
Deference is awkward.
My earlier annoyance comes from a place of confusion, like, I thought I was being told to consider Cleveland’s history. I’d hope it’s obvious by now that I do, in fact, care about Cleveland’s history, hence my exasperation. Sometimes I’m moved to do research on this subject.
Instead it seems that Turk urged me to have a heart, and to be more considerate of anonymous Joe’s like Urban. A People’s history. It’s not bad advice. It is still history.
Phil, since we’re not disagreeing on anything other than emphasis, I’ll share with you the brief biographical details of my grandfathers. We’re not all that different, see.
One of my Grandparent’s grew up on a farm in Noplace, Ohio and never lived in Cleveland, but he did serve in WW2.
My Cleveland connection comes from my other grandparent, who grew up in an apartment in Ohio City and in a ghetto in lower Manhattan—I believe he was in Al Smith’s old fourth ward, since Smith was one of his personal heroes, although Smith’s political career was nearly over by the time he was a young adult. His father—my great grandfather—was a boxer and a stonemason, and above all an alcoholic. The embodiment of Grit.
The later Grandparent had his father’s grit but more in the way of ambition. He had already graduated from Law school by the time WW2 came around, and so he was kept around stateside to do clerical things . He settled down and started a family in Hough, and eventually he moved on up to Shaker Heights when the neighborhood started to, uhh, change, and when he had the means to get out.
Much like Al Smith, he spoke sentimentally about labor and the underprivileged, and he would toe the Smith party line throughout his life.
Anyway, my main point is that if your grandfather Urban tried to tell my grandfather that he was not a true Clevelander because he didn’t work at White Motors or drink at this or that bar or eat at Slyman’s, then Urban would have learned the meaning of the phrase “Irish temper”.
But that’s not something your grandfather Urban would have done, would he?
At least not to his face in a bar. Do you see my point?
This is the beauty of America. As you toil throughout your life, at some point you may have to come to terms with the fact that you aren’t ever going to be the pompous poseur that you aspired to be — but that’s okay, because your grandchildren will be.
by Jay on Dec 30, 2008 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So it’s only fair that I get the same treatment you give Mauichuck. You make it look so easy.
This is an easy topic for me to drop now that it’s reached this point, but I’ll just add one more part. The point is that the old man identified as a Clevelander and liked the city (and the Tribe) very much. So do I, so does Phil, so does Chuck and so did Urban. You might not, and that’s fine.
This has been my version of a defense of Joe Posnanski’s work, and for his credentials as a Clevelander.
I regret having voiced this in a place where it will be openly mocked, but it’s out of place anyway.
Also! That was conciliatory sentimentality with Phil, an equal burying of the hatchet. The ceremony has been violated.
Yeah, well, it wasn’t my ceremony anyway.
I’m just playing with you. If you think about it, it should be obvious that I’m sympathetic.
I got you, I think. Or maybe I’ll get it all later.
Anyone who’s read this will notice that no one came to the defense of George Steinbrenner, the individual to whom this thread is dedicated. I know of another old man (from the family of a friend) from the western ’burbs who knew George back then and likes to brag about the way he and his boyz used to give George the business.
His stories are completely unsubstantiated and probably false, but I believe them anyway.
rec
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 30, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
huh?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 30, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions
Anyway, my main point is that if your grandfather Urban tried to tell my grandfather that he was not a true Clevelander because he didn’t work at White Motors or drink at this or that bar or eat at Slyman’s, then Urban would have learned the meaning of the phrase "Irish temper".
Of course not, and that wasn’t my point. I never meant any of this as a “my family is more blue collar than yours” type of jabe, just simply meant to demonstrate the existence of the types of people Chuck often talks about.
At any rate, True Clevelanders wouldn’t sit around and bicker about what constitutes a True Clevelander. They’d bust their behind at their job, whether that’s assembly line worker or lawyer, and go home to their families and live honest, decent lives. I think it’s obvious our grandfathers could agree on that, and it’s something we can both learn from.
Besides, Urban never really liked Slyman’s.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 30, 2008 10:08 AM EST up reply actions
Right on. That sounds like the Urban I know / imagined.
Anyway, rivalry between cities was a more of a feature of life in the manufacturing age. Rivalry within cities is alleged by some writers to be a modern phenomenon, one that’s taken the place of the old city rivalry. Letting go of this is a step in the right direction, I think.
Just to be clear, you mean letting go of rivalry within cities, right?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 30, 2008 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
Haha.
You might even say that rivalry between cities breeds competition and helps better cities.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 30, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
i’m still trying to figure out how this started
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 30, 2008 4:05 PM EST up reply actions
P.S. I lack expertise, I thought that was obvious. I’m not even an amateur in my own mind. I’m not pretending to be anymore than a guy who cares deeply about his city. That’s all that I am.
Regardless, I hold you in high regard as someone who is much more well-read and versed on Cleveland history and current events than myself.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Cold blooded, man. He will haunt you now.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 8:00 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of Urban’s grandkids, the IT guy for the company I worked for last summer was Urban Shocker’s grandson. Urban Shocker, besides having a really awesome name, was a pretty good pitcher for the Yankees and Browns during the ‘20s. Career ERA+ of 124. The best part is that he was born in Cleveland, and he is what I’d describe as a true Clevelander.
I mean, we agree, I guess??
What I really suggest—not being snotty here—is that you start defining what these changes and differences should be on your own, be it in a blog or whatever, just like we’ve talked about before. There are more than enough people who’re interested in this sort of thing to support a new blog on Cleveland’s future. The PD’s recent City in Crisis’ special series is a good starting point.
Start by answering one of the PDs calls for editorials on this very subject.
Here’s my point: what’s left is a pretty cool city. It still has the cultural stuff we’ve mentioned. It has a still unused resource in a really nice lakefront and the natural fresh water that comes with it. It has a passionate base of people that still live there and if given the right reasons, would get back to their hardworking roots for the betterment of themselves, their families and the city itself. It has the basis for a younger community to move in, as it continues to embrace the medical and university communities.
Is any of it enough to replace the jobs lost in manufacturing since 1970? Not at all. But instead of leaving it for “Youngstown in less than a decade”, I tend to hope that we are left with “Cleveland, version 2.0”. Youngstown, just to turn your example on its head has done some neat things to come back to a interesting, smaller version of itself. Columbus, with 1/10 the character of Cleveland, has found a way to grow and sustain success in the heart of the midwest struggles (struggles in this fiscal year notwithstanding). I hope to live in Cleveland soon and help push the city towards this something better. And I don’t think I’m being overly optimistic to think it could happen.
See you guys, rightfully, accuse me of looking to the past too often. Meanwhile, you’re stuck in the present. What I’m talking about is the future. And the future, for Cleveland anyway, doesn’t look very promising. Gonna built your future on the medical community, huh? Good luck with that. Right now the US of A spends in excess of 17% of their GNP on medical care. No other Western nation, besides Switzerland, spends more that 8%. Our current medical industry, as constructed, is unsustainable. In fact, we’re on the cusp of a violent shakeout. Besides, the medical industry is quite possibly the most economically stratified industry I can think of, where the top earners make $2-3m a year (that would be some of the specialty surgeons) and the lowest earners make minimum wage (the guys cleaning the floors). That kinda disparity never existed in the unionized plants down in the Flats. BTW if you get really sick stay the hell away for the Cleveland Clinic, CWRU is a much better hospital.
Back when I was your age Cleveland was, rightfully, the city that set the tone for the whole state – with Cincinnati its little brother. Columbus was barely an afterthought. But if you’re looking for a bright future I’d suggested you move to Columbus – and you all know how much I hate Columbus.
Boyz, what it takes to make a great city is money. And Cleveland’s flat broke, with little of any promise of hittin’ it big again.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
I’m not only talking about building the future on a medical center: sure, the industry needs major reconstruction, but why not have some of that future in Cleveland, where we have a couple of the country’s best research hospitals.
I’m also talking about it as a recreation area with the lake. With a natural resource of fresh water that places in the south and west can only dream about.
Plus, Cleveland has the character and the history that you speak of. It has many of the people and their offspring that made the town so cool those decades ago. There is no use to comparing it with Youngstown or Lowell, Mass.- those towns never had a peak as high as Cleveland and don’t have all the other things Cleveland has going for it, even with the loss of manufacturing.
Maybe I’m trying too hard to get this back to the original point of this post- but it seems to me that you are trying awfully hard to avoid any optimism about Cleveland. That you are even spiteful towards Joe Posnanski for romanticising what Cleveland was or what it has become. I happen to like it.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 26, 2008 11:28 PM EST up reply actions
Dave, let me be bold enough to offer you a little insight into medical economics. As you probably know medical care is roughly divided into three tiers. First there’s primary care – mostly GPs, interests, ER docs, and increasingly Nurse Practioners, who practice mostly at their offices or admit to places like Bedford hospital. This is the lowest cost, lowest tech medical provider. Think of it as Low A to High A ball. Then secondary care, here we’re mostly taking about Cardiologists, Gastroenterologists, Oncologists, OB/Gyn, General Surgeons, guys who’ve done their 4-6 residency where a larger percentage of their practice is in-patient care. Here we’re talking about admissions to places like St. Luke’s, Fairmont – second tier hospitals. Higher dollar/margin care but still not the Big Leagues – more like AA/AAA ball. Then we get to the Major Leagues – tertiary care. Here the Yankees/BoSox are Mass Gen, the Mayo Clinic, John Hopkins, Stanford, Barnes-Jewish Hospital, etc. The Cleveland Clinic roughly corresponds to our beloved Indians. And just like the Majors, this is where the moneys at. Here’s a little factoid for you: roughly 80% of the cost of medical care is spent on the last 45 days of life and most of that is spent at tertiary care hospitals. That’s today. Here’s what’s coming down the pike: today about a high percentage of all X-Rays/CAT scans/ MRIs are read overseas by foreign docs – mostly in India. Insurance company’s are discovering that it’s more cost effective to ship some of their clients overseas for their schedulable procedures. For instance: it would have cost the insurance company a lot less to fly me to New Delhi for my aortic valve replacement than to pay for the same procedure at OSU. And why not? A hellofalot of USA docs at tertiary care facilities – like the Cleveland Clinic – are foreign trained anyway. Why pay for the higher plant/operations/management costs associated with USA hospitals when you can get it done a lot cheaper overseas? Kinda like cars/chemicals/steel/electronics etc. the medical industry is rapidly going the way of our other "Rust Belt" businesses. So in the near future, the primary and secondary care hospitals – the low dollar, lower tech hospitals – will still be around, but the high dollar/high margin/ high profit/high tech medical centers will be in places like Mumbai and Manila and not in Boston or Baltimore and certainly not Cleveland.
Where gonna hafta have a Plan B cuz I don’t see medicine as the economic savior of my hometown.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
chuck, everything you state above may be true. But have you ever put a positive comment in regards to old C-town? Almost every post I read from you is chock-full of negatives.
Now granted Cleveland is at the bottom of the barrel, but maybe you and your years of wisdom might actually have some way of providing something positive that the area can do. Instead of constantly harping on negative, negative, negative.
I am from Cleveland, and proud of it. I did move away when I was 10 to lovely SoCal, but I still am a Clevelander. Granted I am not a steel worker, stamper, or even one of your surgeon cronies. I am a lower middle class citizen, who proudly hails from Cleveland and sorry if I don’t fit your neat little package of what a Clevelander should be.
Oh and there will always be a medical field. Yes it may suffer some sort of recession, just like every other industry, but it will adapt. I am happy to be involved in the medical profession, as it puts food on the table for my family.
Look talonk, I take no satisfaction in any of this, but the sine qua non of Clevelandness is steely-eyed realism. Every time I go back I see more and more evidence that my city is collapsing and it pains me just like it pains you but there’s no escaping it. I’ll admit I sound awful negative, especially when you couple my views on Cleveland’s future with my stances on Hafner and CC. But that’s realism. But in my defense, I did stick up for Cliff last spring and I’m about the only guy around who thinks that Garko has a chance to be a better-than-average 1Bman. I just call ‘em like I see ‘em. And of course you’re right – there will always be a medical business in Cleveland. That’s not what I was saying. What I’m saying is that the tertiary medical centers are gonna be elsewhere. Just like the auto industry.
We’re all Indians fans here – no doubt. But we aren’t all Clevelanders; that’s not essential for being a Tribe fan. Certainly Mario and aft4 are Tribe fans but I don’t think either would describe themselves as Clevelanders – after all it’s not required. And talonk, come on, if I met you at the airport could you drive us to Slyman’s or the Hot Dog Palace, or the Tick-Tock or the number 5 furnace down in the Flats ? Really? But that’s OK too. We’re both alike here. You love your memories of Cleveland just like I do. But both those places are probably gone now and that’s too bad.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
My name is not Dave, its Ryan: I think that was addressed to me.
Anyway, thanks for the details. I do admit to not knowing a lot of the details of the medical field. But my point is so much larger. The Cleveland Clinic and University Hospitals are a big part of Cleveland, and something we should be proud of. It is A resource. Cleveland has a few, I’m trying to look at that as something to build on.
Part of me agrees with DD about Cleveland enjoying a revival someday, primarily based on water. I don’t think the city can make it as a medical center (not sustainable) or as an academic center (second fiddle to Pittsburgh or Baltimore). But perhaps there can be some return of manufacturing.
And part of me, with typical Cleveland weltschmerz, agrees with Chuck and sees the city declining into Lowell, Massachusetts.
I hope to live in Cleveland soon and help push the city towards this something better. And I don’t think I’m being overly optimistic to think it could happen.
Cheers to that. Call it naive, but I’m looking forward to moving back and contributing as well.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Dec 29, 2008 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
No offense to Chuck, but this is same type of mindset that helps keep Ohio’s unemployment rate above the national average.
Signature to be named later.
Open the Columbus Dispatch employment section. There’s jobs galore.
There’s a palpable aversion to change. The only worthwhile economic barometer is manufacturing and industrial jobs. That’s the mindset of a lot (not all, mind you) of Ohioans. I grew up in Sharon, Pennsylvania. It’s as rust belt as you can get. The thinking just doesn’t change.
The tax situations in states like Ohio and Michigan (especially Michigan) certainly don’t help.
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on Dec 30, 2008 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Another piece of possible nonsense …
It’s not out of character that LeBron James, who grew up in Akron, is a Yankees fan and seems utterly fascinated by New York. There’s something very real there.
… I’d like to see the evidence that LeBron is utterly fascinated by New York, or even just somewhat fascinated. New York is the media capital, and he is a media star. The possibility of his moving to New York is a source of constant speculation by mouth-breathing non-reporters, and he is constantly asked about it. But has he shown any particular interest, beyond the constant interest shown him? Not as far as I’m aware.
Yeah, there is soemthing real there. It has to do with basketball more than anything. Madison Square Garden is the “Mecca”. LeBron has said it a bunch of times, but it is true. There is a culture of basketball that centers around New York: the high schools and the Garden: for all sorts of tourneys and the Knicks.
I think the media stuff shouldn’t be underrated here either. New York is the commercial capital, and LeBron wants to be a billionaire. He has said it is his favorite city, and I don’t think anyone can blame him for it. New York, by all accounts, is a fascinating city. And when it matches up with your interests like it does for LeBron’s the connection is very real.
Note- I fully believe that LeBron will stay in Cleveland, for what its worth.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
I haven’t seen some of those quotes, but it isn’t really clear that LeBron’s path to billions has any real advantage in New York — in fact, I’m quite sure that LA would be better for him in that respect, and I’m not sure New York is that much better than Cleveland.
There are very few true icons who have shifted around from team to team. Nearly all of them play all of their career, or the bulk of it and all of their primes, in one city. Not sure if LeBron has any awareness of this, but his best path to true long-lasting iconic status is to win a few championships in Cleveland.
The weirdness of the situation is that LeBron is loyal to Akron and seems almost indifferent to Cleveland. It may be the first time that proximity to Akron has ever been a significant plus for Cleveland in attracting a top athlete.
I think LeBron is well aware of this. He’s a very smart athlete who wants to be among the alltime greats in basketball and knows what it will take to get there. LeBron has said that he loves playing in New York, and I’m sure he knows that if he leads the Knicks to a few championships he will be revered forever more than even Jeter. But the Knicks are terrible and he won’t go there; he’s just paying with the media. He also knows that if he stays in Cleveland and wins multiple championships there, he will be the face of the franchise forever like Jordan is with the Bulls. And he has always expressed how much he loves playing there.
Now that Ferry has built a winning team around him, I don’t see him leaving. You can tell by watching that he loves his teammates and enjoys playing with them. This is a small thing, but a couple weeks ago LeBron broke the Cavs’ career steals mark on the same night that Ilgauskaus broke the team’s career rebounding mark. During the postgame interview, he gave all the attention to Z (who has been there over a decade) and said his number will be retired some day for the Cavs while downplaying his own accomplishment. I thought this said quite a bit about what he thinks of Z and the other guys on the team, and he knows about the history of the Cavs.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 6:25 PM EST up reply actions
I agree that New York has limited real advantages to LeBron’s impending billionare-ness. And I agree that from an NBA perspective, staying with the Cavs is his best moves. Both of these things is what ultimately leads me to my conclusion that LeBron will stay in Cleveland when all is said and done.
That is not to say that he doesn’t love New York. He listed it as his favorite (followed by DC, Dallas, LA and Akron). Add that to his MSG quotes and the High School ball/Street ball lore of New York and you do have something real.
I don’t think Cleveland is in New York’s sphere of influence (the way, say, Allentown is in Philly’s sphere of influence—Tastykakes, Harry Kalas and the Inquirer, or Green Bay is in Milwaukee’s). Buffalo was about the outer limits for that, where the Erie Canal hit the Great Lakes. Cleveland was where it opened up, where you were between New York and Chicago, the ending foothills of the Appalachians. Free from the gravitational pull of New York. Cleveland has more to do with Pittsburgh than New York. Or, perhaps: East Siders had an affinity for New York, while West Siders looked to Chicago.
Mm… I haven’t had a Tastykake in a while…
by Logodaedalus on Dec 20, 2008 2:26 AM EST up reply actions
You know, I think there’s really something to the East Side/West side thing. I mean, Northern Ohio is literally flat pretty much once you get to the bottom of Cedar Hill on the East Side. Someone once told me that hill was considered the first foothill of the Appalachians. I don’t know if that’s true, but I do know that the Connecticut Western Reserve ends on Cleveland’s West Side. After that, is what used to be known as the Firelands, which was originally Indian country when Cleveland was founded and settled much later. The point is, as part of the Western Reserve, Cleveland, especially on the East Side, had an early and direct lineage from the New England, and then a later tie to New York. I don’t know if West Siders looked to New York, but after World War II many of them may have looked to Detroit. I think the land going through Erie and into Buffalo shares more in common with Cleveland than New York. Pittsburgh and Cleveland certainly have their similarities, both in size and post industrial development. But Pittsburgh is a river town, surrounded by hill country (and its inhabitants) and in this sense it also shares much in common with Cincinnati.
I grew up in what was (and is still called) the “Firelands”, and I disagree with your assessment that the Connecticut Western Reserve ended on Cleveland’s West Side. Every map I’ve seen of the Western Reserve shows it extending westward to Sandusky/Norwalk area, called the Firelands because that land was given to residents of Connecticut who lost their homes to fires which I think occured during the Revolutionary War (or could have been War or 1812). Many towns in the area, such as Norwalk, New London, Greenwhich, etc., took their names from towns in Connecticut where the settlers came from. There is even a school district in my school’s conference (called the Firelands Conference, of course) called Western Reserve. My understanding was that the Connecticut Western Reserve covered pretty much all of NE Ohio, with the Firelands being the western edge of this area.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions
Here’s a picture from Wikipedia. The area known as the Fire Lands is Huron County, which was later divided in to Huron and Erie counties.
Also, I was correct in that the fires came during the Revolutionary War. I find this history lesson very interesting!
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 6:42 PM EST up reply actions
I just asked myself: is it wrong that I love these OT discussions as much as I do? Then I realized that, in a way, threads like these aren’t OT. The history, geography, and culture (beer!) of a fanbase can be as important to really understanding a team as the x’s and o’s. I really think that these threads, combined with transactions/analysis complete the picture of the Indians in a very academically rigorous way.
I was going to correct randallhank on this too. I am in the heart of the Western Reserve here in Huron. Also, we are in the Firelands.
Of course, Huron is in Erie County. Speaking of Huron, I remember my dad saying how my grandmother, who had trouble pronouncing her H’s, would tell people that she “grew up in Sandusky but went swimming in Huron.” That sounds very funny if you pronounce Huron without saying the H.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 22, 2008 9:31 PM EST up reply actions
Many people from Huron actually do pronounce it " ’ur-in ".
Reminds me of when I went on some college tours as a High School senior. The tour guide at UD asked me where I was from, I said " ‘ur-in, Ohio". He said, “oh yeah? where?” I repeated, " ’ur-in, Ohio". We each repeated ourselves about 4 times before I realized he thought I was was saying, “Here, in Ohio” and wanted to know the city, while I thought he was asking me to speak up because he didn’t hear me.
by Ryan Kelsey on Dec 22, 2008 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
I find the pronunciation differences in Ohio pretty interesting. My dad was born in Amherst and everyone there pronounces it “am-erst.” I live near Akron and everyone here calls it “am-hurst.” It’s the same with Bucyrus, Cuyahoga, Euclid, Xenia, etc. My in-laws live near Cincy and they can’t pronounce anything right.
Outside Youngstown, there’s a small town called Campbell but it’s pronounced like “Camel”. I never understood why; that seem like a lot of silent letters for no reason.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Dec 23, 2008 9:29 AM EST up reply actions
Amherst County, Virginia is also “Amerst”. You get this, everywhere, of course. I once worked for a division of a Baltimore, MD public utility that was located in Louisville, KY. That’s “Balmer” and “Lou-ah-vull” to the natives. There’s a town along I-81 in VA called Buena Vista that’s pronounced “B-you-nah Vista” (with Vista like the MS OS, not the spanish word). I did a trip to Buchanan County, VA and was told the proper pronunciation was Buck-annon. But my personal favorite is Fenton, MO, which the locals say something like “feh-eh”.
by FredOx on Dec 23, 2008 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Have you been to Ryo Grandeh (Rio Grande)?
How about Lyema (Lima)?
Or Bellfountain (Bellefontaine)?
Signature to be named later.
I’ve spent many days in Lima, all of them very long.
by Jay on Dec 30, 2008 9:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You left out Medina and Galopolis. I can’t do the phonetics for either pronounciation, but their sure alot different than the country of origin.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
We played Rio in college and not a one of my teammates (not being Ohioans) had any clue how to mispronounce the name.
To expound upon the “later a tie to New York” and Buffalo idea, this from the Ohio and Erie Canal website:
"The Canal allowed goods to travel from Ohio down the Mississippi to the Gulf of of Mexico and from Cleveland on Lake Erie to Buffalo and from there to the east coast. A continuation of the Erie Canal, the Ohio and Erie Canal was funded, designed and constructed by New York financiers, engineers and the Irish immigrant labor gangs. This water route was a significant part of the American System, the interstate transportation infrastructure needed to establish a national economic system for the young Nation.
“The canal laid the foundation for Ohio’s industrial, commercial and political development. It provided an economical way to transport goods that promoted specialization, economies of scale and the growth of profitable commerce. In addition to revenue from tolls, leases of waterpower and the rental of canal land, Ohio also gained innumerable advantages. The value of land and products in the state increased and thousands of new inhabitants settled in Ohio along the canal area. The prosperity in Ohio led to the development of small towns and cities along the waterway. Ohio City, Clinton, Canal Fulton, Navarre and Bolivar were canal villages. Cities such as Cleveland, Akron and Massillon also thrived; they became nationwide leaders in shipping and production of wheat, grains, iron and steel. Merchants from Buffalo increased their purchases from Cleveland’s wheat market from 1,000 bushels annually to more than 250,000 within one year of the canal opening.”
I’d say that’s a pretty strong connection. Notice also that the expansion exclusively went southward, and not to the west.
this thread is really interesting for me, someone who’s been to cleveland all of one time
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Dec 22, 2008 1:11 PM EST reply actions
Haha that makes three visits between the two of us.
by supermarioelia on Dec 22, 2008 8:12 PM EST up reply actions
You think Steinbrenner hates Pittsburgh?
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 26, 2008 12:38 AM EST reply actions
The more I think about it, the more I think it’s useless to compare our city to Chicago or NY. We are, simultaneously, like little bits of both cities and our own city altogether. Call it 10% Chicago, 10% NYC, 110% Cleveland. We’ll never be a superstar, but we’re comfortably above average.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
Jeez, this one went off the rails pretty quick and it looks like I’ve had something to do with that. The back-and-forth got so Byzantine that I’m not sure what the hell I believe. But just to recap:
o I think that Joe Posnanski is a hell of a writer, but he doesn’t know much about Cleveland
o George Steinbrenner is a douch-noozle and has no connection in any way with Cleveland
o Cleveland’s past was built on manufacturing. They’re gonna hafta find something else to build on if they’re going to have a future.
o It took more hard-working guys on the factory floors to build this town than managers in the offices.
There it is: the Mauichuck Sociologic Manifesto. Any questions?
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
Yea, this thread became a real doozy. I still stand by the article, though. Thinking back to the late-70s I remember thinking “What if?” a lot. George was so close to buying the Indians. It was a long time ago, when a deep owner’s pockets determined salary levels – and not luxury boxes or cable contracts. The fact that George was from Cleveland was never lost on me. Would we have signed Reggie? Would we have cleaned house in the front office? Would we have recaptured the glory of the 40’s and 50’s? And would “Major League” have used a team other than the Indians???
Back in the mid-70s, it was not absolutely clear that Cleveland would have a complete population drain – cities like Charlotte, Phoenix, Las Vegas, and the rest of the sunbelt cities had yet to explode. We hadn’t given up on manufacturing, as we tried to emulate Japanese techniques. China? We didn’t import from China until after Nixon visited in the 1970s.
And, Steinbrenner had yet to reach full douche-ness. He was just a jerk who returned the Yankees to the World Series and made classic Lite Beer commercials…
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
Spidey,
A few matters I would like to take exception to:
Steinbrenner was a full-on douchebag well before the Lite Beer commercials. I bet he was one before he ever made it to NY. I bet he was a full douche when he was 15 years old.
It was pretty apparent by 1973 or so that Cleveland was dead meat. The OPEC energy crisis was a nail in the coffin. Pittsburgh was already well on its way down, too.
The Japanese emulation came later. Maybe in the late 1980s, when the Nikkei index was high, and Michael Crichton was worried about a Japanese takeover. No one had heard of Edward Deming in Cleveland or Detroit. Just like now, the industrialists had their blinders on and thought they needed to do nothing to change.
Yea, the Japanese emulation happened in the 80s, but that still indicates manufacturing was still considered an option. I disagree that Cleveland or Pittsburgh knew the nails were in their coffins until mid- to late-80s. As you point out, industrialists had their blinders on – everyone had their blinders on back in the 70s, which is my point – people were expecting a rebound within then-current business models. Heck, we were still living in a transistor world! The USSR controlled a large portion of the potential world economy. And China and India were not a even close to industrial powerhouses. Who would have foreseen the mass exodus of the 80s and 90s? A select few might have identified it, and they would be multi-millionaires today after investing in Charlotte, Atlanta, and Florida real estate, or in India and China.
We had still yet to hear the Jimmy Carter “malaise” speech, watch “The Day After”, have the opening of EPCOT, and hear the chants of “USA” at the 1980 Winter Olympics – so, I can’t believe that the future was apparent back in 1973. If the future was so clear, would we have had the Chrysler rescue in 1979? Cleveland was definitely a joke with the river fire, but it had not claimed bankruptcy, yet.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
Not everyone had their blinders on in 1973. Cleveland was a barren place, obviously on the schneid. No one knew what would happen, or what form it would take, but if you drove down Clark or Prospect or Lorain in 1973 it looked bleak. The Dead Boys knew.
Many, many places looked bleak back in the 1970s; not just Cleveland. There was a major urban exodus destroying nearly every city. Harlem, East LA, North Philly, Cabini-Green. We were watching “Good Times” in the 1970s – not “The Cosby Show”. You could have driven down streets in any city that would have compared with Clark, Prospect, or Lorain. Yankee Stadium in the Bronx? You were taking a chance to go there at any time other than when a game was being played.
Meanwhile, Mentor, Solon, and Beachwood were taking off (I’m from the east side, so can speak with more experience of those places). And Randall Park Mall opened as “the world’s largest shopping center”. As a metropolitan area, Cleveland was not totally bleak and desperate.
I can understand differences of opinion about the connection between Cleveland and New York. Perceptions vary greatly. I agree with the premise of the argument, though: Cleveland had strong connections to NYC. The examples Posnanski presents resonate with me. I’m really surprised to hear strong (near universal) disagreement with the premise (or else I would not have raised the issue). I really thought that people who lived in the Cleveland area during the 1970s and 1980s would have considered Cleveland as a city with an east coast tilt.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
See that’s a suburbanite’s misconstruction. Let’s keep it simple: in Cleveland back then we made stuff for a living – fenders, steel, paint, gasoline – you know stuff. And what the hell did they make in NYC? Bonds? Shares? Ads? What the hell was that? Neither I nor any of my cohorts could relate to NYC and what they did there.
Nope, writing ads for TV was no way for a grown man to make a livin’, now was it?
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
You’re right that the 1970s malaise was widespread, but no matter how prosperous the Cleveland suburbs looked, the so-called inner city (code words of course) looked to be at the end of the line.
See Cleveland is Cleveland, not Beachwood or Solon or Mentor. Like DeNiro said in “The Deehunter”, “this is this. This ain’t somethin’ else, this is this.” Hell Mentor ain’t even in the same county as Cleveland – in fact it usta be a long distance call from Cleveland to Mentor.
Cleveland’s the Host the suburb’s are just parasites. When Cleveland dies, the parasites will die too.
Resident LGT beer kinda sewer
chuck = cleveland’s david simon?
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on Jan 7, 2009 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
Hell Mentor ain’t even in the same county as Cleveland – in fact it usta be a long distance call from Cleveland to Mentor.
This used to piss my mom right off when I called my buddy in Mentor
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Jan 7, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions
I think the main objection to the article wasn’t even the Cleveland-NYC connection — that was more of a side-objection — but rather the presentation of Steinbrenner as being an archetypal Clevelander, or a typical Clevelander, or representative in any way of what Clevelanders are all about. If George represents some kind of platonic form, it isn’t of a Clevelander, it’s of a total a-hole.
by Jay on Jan 7, 2009 1:13 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
True on that point – Steinbrenner is not representative of being a Clevelander. However, the article was making the point that it was a Clevelander that purchased the Yankees. That it happened to be Steinbrenner was happenstance.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
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