Decision time for the Beard
Lots of reports coming in Casey Blake's eventual landing spot. The Indians appear to be competing with the Dodgers and Twins for his services, but not very aggressively.
Minnesota's Star-Tribune reports that the Twins have offered him a two-year deal for $12 million, with a club option for 2011. Jayson Stark reports that the Dodgers have also offered a two-year deal, and that both clubs have been told that Blake will basically go to whichever team guarantees a third year. Castrovince, meanwhile, devotes eight paragraphs on Indians.com to letting Blake's agent stir the pot, making sure Indians fans know that the Indians are not trying as hard as the other two teams.
It's hard to see the Indians not offering Blake two years guaranteed, and the price certainly is reasonable. The Indians were quite clear in their desire to acquire either a quality second baseman or third baseman this offseason, and they've reportedly already eliminated both of the available quality second basemen from consideration. The Indians basically never trade away talent for a veteran player nearing free agency, so barring a major deal involving younger players, their selection essentially is down to Blake and Joe Crede. (Are they in fact talking to Joe Crede? Hello, reporters?)
Seems to me the Indians are essentially in the same place with Blake as they were with Paul Byrd, who three years ago was a serviceable player with a positive past history with the Indians, and specifically with GM Mark Shapiro. They are not going to lower themselves to compete with the Dodgers, clearly one of the worst-run organizations in the game, or the Twins, who unceremoniously dumped Blake in favor of Corey Koskie. The Twins are the reason Blake nearly didn't have a big-league career, while the Indians are the reason that he does have one.
This is not to suggest that Blake owes the Indians anything — far from it. From everything we know about him, he's given the club everything he has and everything they've ever asked for in terms of effort and attitude. He established himself as an everyday player by far exceeding expectations back in 2004, and more than most ballplayers about to get a new deal, he really seems to deserve everything he's going to get. The Indians, meanwhile, got far more out of him than they actually paid for, having paid him less than $10 million total for his first five full seasons with the Indians. This past season, he made $6.1 million in his last arbitration year, and he posted better-than-solid numbers (116 OPS+) going into the All-Star break that allowed the Indians to get a premium return in prospects. All in all, both sides should be very happy with what they got out of this six-year relationship.
What this gets back to, then, is how much Blake values that relationship, his connection to his teammates, and the quality of the organization. Blake has played 820 out of 917 career games in an Indians uniform, yet he's also been through Toronto, Minnesota, Baltimore and L.A. He knows the Indians gave him his best and only chances at a big-league career, that they supported him through terrible slumps and personal problems, that they ultimately preferred him repeatedly (and somewhat inexplicably) to prized prospect Andy Marte. Unlike many players reaching free agency for the first time, Blake's been around enough to know that the grass may not in fact be greener somewhere else. He knows the talent in the organization — Shapiro is in the fun position of being able to talk up the prospects Blake netted them — and very possibly has a sense of unfinished business here. Having come so close in 2007, how could he not? Have the Dodgers or Twins done any better lately?
As for the Indians, they're going to go wherever the greatest value lies in the market. Given potential performance issues at four positions that Blake can play, and an apparently resolute unwillingness to give Marte an extended look, Blake seems to be a fairly sensible acquisition, as long as the terms are reasonable. Which brings us back to Paul Byrd. Odds are that Blake, like Byrd three years ago, will get offered a three-year guarantee in the neighborhood of $20 million by at least one team, and also like Byrd three years ago, will get offered two years by the Indians. In fact, it would not be surprising in the least to see Blake sign the exact same deal with the Indians that Byrd signed — two years for $14 million, plus a third year option for $8 million.
As with Byrd, the Indians are not going to attempt to outbid the other clubs, because making the top offer would mean going beyond a threshold of reasonable value. Like Byrd, Blake is going to have to decide how much playing for the Indians is really worth to him.
Comments
Blake offer timing
Blake’s agent seems not only to be stirring the pot, but also trying to force a decision before the meetings begin. That’s smart, especially if you think that there is a possibility Blake might go from being the best of the very few third baseman available to only being the oldest one of several acceptable third basemen available. What if the Nats show up looking to trade Zimmerman for pitching, or the Astros and the Rangers try trading Wiggington or Blalock. What if the M’s arrive on the strip offering a Putz/Beltre combo? The competitive market could then push Casey’s desires for a third year right into the trash bin, if not push his overall price down even further. I guess the question is: Will Casey still be unsigned early next week?
by MTF on
Dec 4, 2008 3:54 PM EST
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I have a suspicion that Blake has told his agent to cut the best deal possible — with the Indians. I don’t know this to be the case, and I wouldn’t put money on it. But it fits with the past relationship, and it fits with the agent complaining to all the Indians beat reporters that the Indians aren’t being aggressive enough and are about to lose Blake to another club. I mean, he’s got two good bidders, why not just work them as much as possible? The Indians aren’t going to drive up the bidding, and must realize that, he’s just trying to see if he can get them at least to match the other offers. But this is just a hunch.
by Jay on
Dec 4, 2008 4:08 PM EST
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Interesting take. Not that it is correct, but it is plausible that this is what all the press is about. I think the tribe still sees Blake as a fallback option (all I want for Christmas is Beltre), and is not going to move yet.
by oxforddave on
Dec 4, 2008 4:24 PM EST
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It’s a good hunch, and the Tribe might bite on a Blake deal eventually notwithstanding the effort to stir the pot today. My own hunch is that they’ll wait to see who’s on offer at the winter meetings first, though.
by MTF on
Dec 4, 2008 6:19 PM EST
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I’d say this indicates a soft market for Blake, and I would imagine Shapiro doesn’t like being played in the papers. McDowell is playing to the peanut gallery.
by odradek on
Dec 4, 2008 10:46 PM EST
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Re-signing Blake = Happy Travis = Pronk?
I’m willing to take the leap if you are.
by world dictator on
Dec 5, 2008 12:40 AM EST
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There is zero chance the Nats show up looking to trade Zimmerman.
by ClarkM on
Dec 4, 2008 4:09 PM EST
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and wiggington is an astro and blalock isn’t a third baseman anymore.
does he just want to sign a deal before he has to turn down arbitration?
by Brick. on
Dec 4, 2008 6:07 PM EST
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under the previous CBA rules, if you declined arbitration you were unable to play with that team until may. that’s no longer the case, so there’s really no leverage in threatening to decline or in actually declining.
by xrickx on
Dec 4, 2008 6:13 PM EST
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by Brick. on
Dec 4, 2008 8:49 PM EST
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Interesting. I really like Blake. I think he is a very good fit for the Indians. Of course, that a better option is not available, but at a 2 yr/7M per with a 8M option type of deal, I can’t imagine finding a better bargain. Just like I said last season, Casey Blake was the best 3B on our team. If we signed him right now, that would still be the case.
Bottom line, I’d like to sit back and wait to see how the trade market plays itself out before committing to Blake. However, like Jay said, a major talent for vet trade is not the norm for Shap. And Casey may not be around in a month after we have failed in our attempts for a Beltre, Roberts or whoever else.
The best part about Blake, though, is that signing him right now would not necessarily effect any attempts to get a better infielder through FA or trade. If we got Roberts and shifted the infield around or Beltre and wanted to insert him at third, no problem: Blake helps at 1B, spells 3B, and/or plays RF or DH. All positions where we are not necessarily set.
by DaytonDogg on
Dec 4, 2008 4:55 PM EST
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I just don’t trust that Blake will be used correctly if he signs a multi-year deal. His 2009 use is pretty clear…play 3B. That one can’t really be mismanaged. But beyond 2009, will Wedge really adjust Blake’s role so that Hodges, if ready, can assume 3B? Much of Blake’s value is his ability to full multiple positions (not that he has to do it to be valuable; it’s just the insurance he provides by having the ability to do so), but I doubt he’ll be used in such a way when the appropriate time comes.
Could be a win-win, though. If Blake signs for two years, plays well, and Hodges is ready, perhaps the Indians can deal him next offseason, collect yet another return for Blake (now that’s an organizational soldier), and make room for Hodges.
If it’s for three years, I’m politely passing.
by xrickx on
Dec 4, 2008 5:14 PM EST
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I think this is the key point. What are the odds Wedge uses Blake correctly? Zero.
by Voltaire on
Dec 4, 2008 10:42 PM EST
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I guess this doesn’t worry me because I’m skeptical about Hodges. I don’t think it’s any big deal if Hodges gets little to no big-league playing time in 2010, and if Hodges is truly ripe at that point, the Indians turn down the 2011 option on Blake.
by Jay on
Dec 4, 2008 10:46 PM EST
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Mostly spot on, Jay, but I think you might be understating one point here: You say that Tribe management kept him in the lineup in 2008 “somewhat inexplicably” over Marte. In this instance, “somewhat” is a euphemism in league with “Scarlett J is somewhat hot” or “Shin-Soo Choo’s development is somewhat encouraging.”
No one framed the discussion better than you did at the time. Blake had the opportunity to utterly floor us with his June / July performance only thanks to irrational decision making on the part of Tribe management.
All of which is to say that if he feels any sense of loyalty or obligation, it might be even more pronounced than previously discussed. But I guess I doubt it less than you do.
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 7:07 PM EST
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if it weren’t for Facebook telling me about your musical tastes and inspirations i’d think you’d have died.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 4, 2008 7:10 PM EST
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I’ve missed you too. I’ve been quite consumed by other work, but LGT is where my heart is.
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 8:08 PM EST
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I’m what you might call a “lurker.”
Really, not to get too deep into the weeds, but I’m writing a book and it’s rather monopolizing. I’ll be back.
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 8:10 PM EST
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book! book! i want to write a book
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 4, 2008 8:12 PM EST
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“You don’t write because you want to say something, you write because you have something to say.” – F. Scott Fitzgerald
by fleerdon on
Dec 4, 2008 9:30 PM EST
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i do
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 4, 2008 10:00 PM EST
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Then you can be like me, GFP. You can spend hundreds of hours on the road, in hard labor, interviewing, and researching, all for the joy of having to self-publish, take a loss, and move on with your life.
(Seriously, I haven’t even inquired about publishers, but the odds do not favor me).
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 10:03 PM EST
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Get crazy, go Kindle. Stick it to the evil publishing cartels.
Word is bond.
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
by gte619n on
Dec 5, 2008 9:24 AM EST
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You’re like a modern day Thomas Paine.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 5, 2008 12:09 PM EST
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Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 5, 2008 2:52 PM EST
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Wow, green huh? I actually thought it was kind of obvious…
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 5, 2008 7:09 PM EST
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I am tempted to let you write the foreward. Here’s the catch: I will not tell you what the book is about. I will only tell you that it has nothing to do with sports.
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 10:00 PM EST
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i hope you’re okay with no capital letters.
by Brick. on
Dec 4, 2008 10:38 PM EST
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i will buy the book just to read brick’s forward. sorry tabler
by Voltaire on
Dec 4, 2008 10:41 PM EST
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No worries, V. The book is actually about how Amanda Bynes, Scarlett J and Blake Lively were looking for a writer who could talk to them while they showered. Pictures included. But I’ll make sure I only send you Brick’s forward.
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 11:00 PM EST
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I’m really interested in your book (for the articles, of course) and couldn’t care less about the forward.
by fwembt on
Dec 5, 2008 1:33 AM EST
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“How Jesus Conquered the Brontosaurus”
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 4, 2008 11:11 PM EST
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7 recs
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Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 5, 2008 12:30 AM EST
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Evan hasn’t commented since June. MTF, since August. It’s like a class reunion in here. If CarnegieAndOntario and Julie show up, I’m getting drunk and singing out of tune.
by fleerdon on
Dec 4, 2008 9:34 PM EST
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Oh, so it’ll be like a game thread.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 4, 2008 9:44 PM EST
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No, I sing in tune during game threads.
by fleerdon on
Dec 4, 2008 9:51 PM EST
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I guess I should return to posting too then.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Dec 5, 2008 12:00 PM EST
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I have been lurking occasionally. Great upheaval in my life right now. Changed jobs, and in the process of moving to North Carolina.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Dec 5, 2008 12:08 PM EST
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Raleigh area, we just agreed to terms on a house in the Wake Forest area, I’m working in the edge of RTP.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Dec 5, 2008 3:40 PM EST
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Congrats. I’d been in and around the East TN/West NC area for 7 years until moving to Atlanta in May and, if you haven’t spent time in that area, it’s really superb.
by NickFantana on
Dec 5, 2008 3:57 PM EST
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I went to college in NW NC. And I’d go back in a heartbeat.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Dec 6, 2008 1:14 PM EST
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Oh, that’s right. I now recall you discussing Appy State previously. I was sorry to see them get bounced yesterday by Richmond.
by NickFantana on
Dec 7, 2008 4:20 PM EST
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You’re not the only one. But hey, 3 straight is hard to be upset about. Being too upset about not getting the 4th straight feels an awful lot like greed.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on
Dec 7, 2008 10:03 PM EST
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I just like being able to root for a winner for once. Appy State has been like the anti-Browns.
by NickFantana on
Dec 8, 2008 12:43 AM EST
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Boy everyone’s crawling out of the woodwork. Imagine what it’ll be like when we trade Grady to Oakland.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 5, 2008 12:11 PM EST
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i’ll have to change my name
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 5, 2008 2:53 PM EST
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i was thinking about switching to another Indians player but I like where you’re going here.
Anti-Ben Fran before it was cool.
by Gradyforpresident on
Dec 5, 2008 3:37 PM EST
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Maybe no posting since August, but I’ve checked in every day I’m not traveling! Great stuff on this blog, usually.
by MTF on
Dec 5, 2008 12:13 PM EST
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Welcome back, buddy. I’d tell you I missed you, but we both know that’s not true.
“Somewhat” refers not just to preferring Blake over Marte, but doing so repeatedly. Blake got the call in May 2007 in somewhat explicable circumstances, and the case for Blake over Marte is a reasonably clear one, apart from the contract/control/cost issues.
by Jay on
Dec 4, 2008 10:29 PM EST
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Fair enough. I’ll be thrilled for Casey when he signs a relatively fat contract. I admit I’ll be happier if he’s with someone else, but I’ll be cheering him just the same.
by tabler84 on
Dec 4, 2008 11:02 PM EST
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he Indians basically never trade away talent for a veteran player nearing free agency
Aw, Beltre.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 4, 2008 8:03 PM EST
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I really have hope, this is the year Shapiro takes a little bit larger gamble than he is accustomed to
by Roger Dorn on
Dec 5, 2008 12:26 AM EST
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It’s not about a gamble, it’s just about assigning a value to each player/contract and then not doing something stupid. Shapiro doesn’t refrain from these trades because they’re risky, but rather just because they’re far too expensive.
You know, we laugh all the time about Eduardo for Asdrubal, but any Beltre trade we could make would be fundamentally similar to that, just not quite as drastic. There is no major league-ready player who isn’t more valuable than one year of Beltre.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 2:09 AM EST
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So, looking at the FA market for infielders and then reading what you’re saying here, it looks an awful lot like standing pat.
by NickFantana on
Dec 5, 2008 10:35 AM EST
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There is no major league-ready player who isn’t more valuable than one year of Beltre.
Yes this is true. But I offer this corollary:
There are very few major league ready minor leaguers who are more valuable than a playoff appearance.
Or, in other words, the Sabathia trade worked out great for the Brewers, no matter what LaPorta does.
by oxforddave on
Dec 5, 2008 11:14 AM EST
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I don’t know, and this is something I’ve been wrestling with for a few months.
In general, 90% of the time, it is very clear that one playoff appearance is more valuable than any minor leaguer.
What I can’t quite get past is the idea of limping into the postseason, and how valuable that really is. The Brewers get a 2008 NL Wild Card flag, which I don’t think is as good as an NL Central flag, and I think their chances of winning the NL pennant considerably less than the standard 25, and their chances of winning a championship well below 10.
Essentially, I’m saying the Brewers did not win this trade. I do not think the Brewers were more helped by having made this playoff cameo than by still having those four prospects. They need Zach Jackson more than ever, and with legitimate questions about Gamel and Escobar hitting in the majors, they need LaPorta and ultimately Brantley as well. I think they have substantively hurt their ability to make a playoff run over the next six years — a run in which they hypothetically would have had a real shot at postseason success — and it’s hard to conclude that the playoff cameo was worth that.
On the other hand, the Sheets injury had a lot to do with their tiny odds of prevailing in the postseason, and you can’t blame them for counting on Sheets over two or three months. And I’m aware that it’s easy to say all this in retrospect. I just know that I would never want to see us make a trade like this, just to see us be the 4th seed in the postseason with a two-man rotation.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 1:15 PM EST
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I think its hard to appreciate the situation the Brewers were in last year. When you have the chance to make the playoffs for the first time in 26 years you have to bite the bullet and make that trade.
Maybe I have a different perspective on their team last year, but I thought they had a really good chance to go deep into the playoffs riding Sheets and CC. Besides, it is the National league where 84 win teams make the world series.
On top of that, they still have a lot of talent in the minors that’s 1 or 2 years away. Not to mention the bonanza they might get in return when they trade either Fielder or Hardy for quality prospects near the major league level.
All of this in addition to the four draft picks they’ll receive from Sheets and CC
by world dictator on
Dec 5, 2008 1:40 PM EST
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I’m talking about what happens between now and 2014. The four draft picks, you’re essentially talking about players for 2014-2020, and the over/under is that they get ONE significant major leaguer out of that, and who can predict what happens to the club between now and then? Remember, they’re going to get something like the #32, #36, #70 and #80 picks.
I also think we need to distinguish between the Brewers’ situation, where they were a pretty good team for the season but ended up short-handed at the worst possible time, and the 2006 Cardinals (or 1997 Indians), where it was a team with a lot of core talent that happened to have a bad year, snuck into the playoffs anyway, and got hot at the right time. There are teams with <90 wins that aren’t limping into the playoffs, but the 2008 Brewers were not one of them.
Now, we might say the 2008 Brewers were more “deserving” of that playoff berth than the 2006 Cardinals, but the 2006 Cardinals by a wide margin were the better team on the day the playoffs started. What we’re talking about here is the value of being in the postseason, and I think the relative odds of winning in the postseason are part of that question.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 1:52 PM EST
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It is so hard to know in the playoffs. I’m not convinced that the 06 cardinals were better than the 08 brewers. Yeah they got a much better result. But this was because they got some great starts out of Jeff Weaver and Anthony Reyes. Didn’t happen with these guys before or after the playoffs. Losing Sheets really cost the brewers and their playoff hopes.
Like you, I struggle with how much benefit you get from an early playoff exit. Would it have really been any different if the Brewers finished like the Mets did?
by oxforddave on
Dec 5, 2008 2:35 PM EST
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The 06 Cardinals also happened to have the best baseball player in the league along with a very good number 1 and a young closer with a wicked curve
by Roger Dorn on
Dec 5, 2008 2:36 PM EST
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I think you have to set the bar for just making the playoffs, and not anything above that. In Milwaukee’s case, just doing that was an achievement because they hadn’t made the postseason since the early 80s. And as we’ve seen just in recent years, the playoffs is a completely different animal from the regular season. If you get in, you can win it. This isn’t the NBA we’re talking about.
What also made the trade easier to make from Milwaukee’s perspective is that trading LaPorta wouldn’t create an organizational hole at his position (which IMO is first base). Prince Fielder is under their control for several more years, and they don’t have a DH in the National League, so trading him isn’t going to affect their major-league moves.
by Ryan on
Dec 7, 2008 12:19 AM EST
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Are you just playing devil’s advocate on this one are do you really believe we shouldn’t attempt to acquire Beltre? I can’t recall you voicing your opinion on it either way. Furthermore, what about Beltre and an extension?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 5, 2008 12:12 PM EST
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First, just to get it out of the way, the question of an extension is irrelevant for me. You acquire a player and his current contract, period, and it’s actually fairly unusual to see the contract modified as a part of the trade. I think you have to deal with the trade question with the assumption that the player is not sticking around beyond that, or that the player will only stick around at market rates, which is almost the same thing.
I essentially agree with (what I think is) Shapiro’s thinking on this. I think you have to assign a value to each player or prospect based on his upside potential, expected production and downside risk. Based on that kind of comparison, I don’t teams would ever trade a significant Triple-A prospect for someone on a one- or two-year deal.
I’m not saying that a club should be absolutely governed by that kind of computation, not at all. I am saying that that is an important way of looking at the decision, and from that perspective, most of these deals look absolutely ridiculous. You can look at it like fielding stats — nobody’s saying one stat is absolute, but if Dewan’s plus/minus and RZR both make the guy look awful, you can’t just close your eyes and pretend he’s good.
In short, very few trades for veterans could stand up to the scrutiny of any kind of asset valuation analysis. I also think it’s a mistake to treat an enitre upcoming season as essentially “high-leverage” — as the Tigers did a year ago — as compared with the last ten weeks of an ongoing season, when you know so much more about your competitive situation. Shapiro would not have traded Max Ramirez for Kenny Lofton at the start of 2007, and I think that’s a good call.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 2:02 PM EST
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Adding to this, I think the trade market in baseball has shifted dramatically in this direction — valuing rookies and advanced prospects more and veterans less — since the 2002 Colon deal, but I think prospects essentially remain undervalued in the market. It’s a little tough to get a clear read on this, because situational value distorts the July deals substantially, but I think that in general, the team that’s trading a player like Beltre is still likely to do better than the team acquiring a player like Beltre. What I’m saying, essentially, is that for a smart team, the market will discourage acquiring Beltre by overvaluing him.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 2:09 PM EST
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I think there’s too much retrospect with regards to the Brewers on your part. I would think very few people want to go to the postseason so badly that they’d go in like the Brewers did, but you can’t make that assumption so easily at the time of the trade. And I think you can properly treat a season with higher leverage, without going all-in like the Tigers seemed to have last year. It depends on how important you feel the 2009 season is. Is this a year when quite a lot of the talent should be peaking? I’m not going to even pretend I can answer this question, but it has to be a factor. If the answer is yes, then they should shift some effort from acquiring the most talent overall, to optimizing the talent right now.
by 7foot3 on
Dec 5, 2008 3:00 PM EST
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Yeah, it’s the retrospective BS that’s the reason I struggle with it. I’m pretty confident that in retrospect, I’d rather keep the prospects given the result, but I agree that the Brewers could not have known it was a crawl-in situation when the deal was made.
The Dodgers, on the other hand, did know that they would barely be above .500. Even after finishing the season on an improbable 19-8 tear, they still ended up with the eight-best NL record, five games behind the Mets, who did not qualify. The fourth-cede-eighth-best-record situation is the one that is more questionable and more foreseeable — the Wild Card is almost always one of the three best teams — although at least you get a real “title” in your division. Bottom line, it’s the mediocre-team-winning-horrible-division situation that generally is the most dubious one.
Also, I hate the Dodgers. Think we can get any more prospects out of them?
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 3:39 PM EST
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I’m not sure how interested I am in discussing the first part of what I wrote, but I think the second part is important. If you think you’re close, but not a clearly dominant team, which is my guess for the 2009 Indians as currently constructed, isn’t it better to sacrifice a few theoretical wins down the road for a couple more realistic ones now? And I really don’t hate the Dodgers, but Colletti is still a genius because he got them in the playoffs, right? I guess it couldn’t hurt to keep in touch.
by 7foot3 on
Dec 5, 2008 4:16 PM EST
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Colletti, a genius? Not hardly. He inherited a strong farm system and had a massive budget to work with. With the huge budget, he built a team that was on pace for about 75 wins in baseball’s worst division. Seeing an opportunity, he sold off half of his best prospects and was fortunate to get from 75 wins to 84. Considering the payroll subsidies he got and the prospects he gave up, he essentially spent about $180 million this year to put together an 84-win team in a bad division. A genius? No. Someone we want to do business with? Absolutely.
The Indians set to peak in 2009? Sure, just like the Tigers in 2008. There are simply too many variables, even if you can have a pretty clear idea of where your roster’s foundation is going to be. You just never know how those variables will turn out, and some of them aren’t even on your own team. What I’m getting it is, unless you’re a very smart team spending upwards of $200 million, you don’t really know if you’re going to the playoffs or not.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 11:32 PM EST
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Colletti as genius was completely sarcastic. Of course the Indians can never know for certain they’ll make the playoffs, but you can’t sit here and say “we don’t know if it will work, so lets just hope we get some breaks instead”. Its only on paper, but I think the 2009 division is ripe for the taking. Right now, I don’t think we’re noticeably better than the Sox, Twins, and Tigers. But a couple additions like Beltre (Mills, or Francisco/Crowe and S Lewis maybe?) and a bat-missing reliever like Wood (3/30?) or Cruz (3/18?) would make us the favorite without saying “2010 and beyond be damned” like outbidding the Yankees for a starter or giving up all the prospects the Orioles want for Roberts would.
by 7foot3 on
Dec 6, 2008 4:42 PM EST
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I’m not saying that we should wait to get the breaks, but you’re talking about making moves that would be expected to net us perhaps 2-3 more wins, and at extremely high prices. You do that sort of thing in July, when you really know what your competitive situation is, but you’re shooting yourself in the foot if you do it all the time.
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 7:38 PM EST
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To be clear, the “very expensive prices” part was about trading the entire career of a very good prospect for one year of Beltre. I think $30 million for three years of Wood is quite reasonable, because that’s three years instead of one, and Mills or Lewis might be worth $20-30 million as an asset.
Look at it this way, if you value Mills at $23 million as an asset, then if you trade him straight up for Beltre, and you pay Beltre’s salary, then you’ve just paid $35 million for one year of Beltre. Free agents start to look damned cheap at that point. This is what I’m talking about with asset valuation analysis.
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 7:41 PM EST
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I’m not sure how comfortable I am saying that today Mills or Lewis is worth 20-30 million today. And just quickly looking at batting runs, over the last 3 years, Beltre is about 34 BRAA per 650 PAs, while Marte is -11 over 561 career PAs. Unless you’re guaranteeing me an improvement in Marte, we’re talking about a theoretical 5 win improvement. And if those 5 wins take you from 85 to 90 in a division where you think the other couple contenders are 85 win teams, its worth a lot more than 5 wins in a vacuum.
by 7foot3 on
Dec 7, 2008 1:20 PM EST
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Well, let me sketch out the valuation scale for you a little bit, with an extreme example. Grady has produced about $125 million in on-field value for the Indians so far, and per MORP he’s projected to produce another $100 million or so through 2012. Over that same period of time, we’re going to pay him only $32 million or so, so you could make the argument that his on-field value has been $225 million, plus off-field part, which is that he’s a $193 million bargain. So Grady’s career turns out to be worth $400 million.
Of course, Grady wasn’t guaranteed to be this good, and in fact he could have gotten injured at some point, etc. Also, Mills and Lewis aren’t projected to be as good as Grady is or was projected to be. But either one could easily produce 20 marginal wins before hitting free agency, which is valued at nearly $95 million, and we probably won’t pay them more than $25 million or so for doing so. So in that instance, they would end up being worth something like $150 million to the club, on-field plus off-field, so then you consider the risk — they do almost nothing and are paid almost nothing.
But between the raw performance value on the free agent market and the potential savings, you can see how it adds up, and if you think a guy has a 20% chance of getting to 20 WARP before free agency … that player is essentially a $30 million asset.
Pencilling in Beltre for 5.0 WARP, that’s worth $24 million, and we’d only be paying $12 million, so that’s $36 million.
by Jay on
Dec 8, 2008 2:13 PM EST
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I only have the MORP numbers coming into last year, which has Grady as worth 80 mill from now till 2012, so maybe I’m wrong here, but the same MORP has Beau Mills worth less than 2 wins a year until 27. Maybe give him a boost after the year he had, and a bit more for playing in the majors closer to his prime despite that his age 26 and 27 years project lower than his age 23-25 years, I still don’t see how you can get:
easily produce 20 marginal wins before hitting free agency
easily assuming more than a 50% increase over projected MORP? I’m not doing that. Lewis fares even worse than Mills in regards to MORP. I feel kinda generous enough as it is penciling in 12 wins for either of them. And yes, 12 wins is worth more than 5. But we also have some above replacement level alternatives for them down the road, we don’t at 3B right now. I’m not certain, but I think optimizing the talent in 2009, when the division is so clearly winnable is a better play.
by 7foot3 on
Dec 10, 2008 6:33 PM EST
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But I multiplied my projected marginal wins times a risk factor, so the result wouldn’t be that different. If you’re using MORP for them, then you have to multiply it times 100%.
Once PECOTA is updated through 2008/2009, Grady’s MORP over the next four years will be about what it was a year ago if not higher, because he did very well and is still pre-peak. Mills and Lewis will be much, much higher than they were a year ago, because they both had strong seasons and are getting less risky as they approach the majors.
by Jay on
Dec 11, 2008 4:57 AM EST
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You’re supposed to put an exclamation point (!) after “Also.” Just saying.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 5, 2008 6:02 PM EST
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I’m not sure if this is actually true, but I view our 2009 team as especially volatile. If this is the case, it would seemingly make a trade for a one year rental even less advantageous.
Furthermore, I’d be hesitant to trade anybody of potential value to our 2010-11 teams (especially 2010), as I think those teams are more likely to compete for championships. This isn’t to say we should necessarily rest on our laurels this winter, as I think the central is very winnable, I’d just rather sign a free agent, like Casey Blake, who besides helping this year, could be an asset on the 2010-11 teams.
by ClarkM on
Dec 5, 2008 4:16 PM EST
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More in love with the prospects than with our aging stars, eh?
Well, given Hafner and Westbrook and Victor’s injuries, I guess that’s to be expected.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 11:33 PM EST
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The way I look at it is in 2010:
Full season of Westbrook, Age 32 and Cliff Lee, 31. Last year under contract for both.
Extra season of maturity for Carmona, 26, Laffey, 25, and Huff, 25. Also, Miller, Sowers, etc.
Last season Victor under contract, Age 31. One of the few guys on the roster who’s likely to be worse in 2010. Hafner, I just don’t know what to expect from here on out, whether in 2009 or 2010.
A bunch of position players entering or in peak years: Sizemore, 27 Peralta, 28, Frank, 27, Shoppach, 30, Choo, 27, and Asdrubal, 24. Also, LaPorta and Santana should be able to contribute.
The only players under contract for 2009 that aren’t also under contract for 2010 are Dellucci and Carroll. The big differences for me in the two teams are a full season of Westbrook and the extra year of development for the young starters.
by ClarkM on
Dec 6, 2008 2:17 AM EST
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Okay, then, go 2010!
Of course, a trade or two could shift that balance a little.
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 12:56 PM EST
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To be fair, its not that Shapiro doesn’t believe in trading for major league players, the right deal usually just doesn’t come together. He did try to trade for Haren and Roberts.
And two seasons ago we did trade Ramierz for Lofton. Not to mention the Barfield and Scott Steward trades.
by world dictator on
Dec 5, 2008 12:58 AM EST
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And two seasons ago we did trade Ramierz for Lofton. Not to mention the Barfield and Scott Steward trades.
I now understand why Shapiro doesn’t trade for veterans. I want Max Ramirez back!
by NickFantana on
Dec 5, 2008 10:34 AM EST
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Yeah we could totally trade him again.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 5, 2008 12:13 PM EST
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Please, let’s not mention the Scott Stewart trade. It was not one of Shapiro’s finest moves. One more reason why I don’t think we’ll ever trade anything of significant value for a reliever (also see Giles for Rincon).
by woodsmeister on
Dec 5, 2008 12:00 PM EST
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I’ve been a big big Blake fan, but do you really want to tie up 20m for a 35yr 3rd baseman? His range at 3rd is going south fast, we don’t need him at 1st or in the outfield. To me 20m is alot to pay for someone we hope is a starter this year and a backup the next two.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on
Dec 5, 2008 10:08 AM EST
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To be clear, what I’m suggesting is that the Indians would willingly tie up $14 million, not $20 million. I don’t think they will guarantee the third year. Also, I am not advocating for this, I am only saying it seems sensible.
I don’t see a lot of certainty in the other corner positions, so maybe that’s something where we disagree. Between LF, RF, 1B and DH, the best thing we’ve got going is one guy who was really good for four months. That’s it, so that’s basically zero rock-solid guys. Blake probably hits just about as well as Francisco or Garko in 2009, and he plays better defense than either one at their positions.
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 1:22 PM EST
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I also think he would be a good pickup for this year, what I was getting is the year after lets hope we have better replacements in LF (Matt Laporta/Michael Brantley ) 1st ( Laporta/Mills/Victor )
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on
Dec 5, 2008 2:22 PM EST
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Well, hell, who’s gonna argue with “let’s hope” ?
by Jay on
Dec 5, 2008 2:38 PM EST
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can I argue with myself?
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on
Dec 5, 2008 8:28 PM EST
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Would that be the five minute argument or the full half-hour?
by woodsmeister on
Dec 5, 2008 11:16 PM EST
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Blake is an adequate filler at 3B, but I don’t want to resign him. Signing him would lock in mediocre defense at SS. average D at 3B. I would much rather take that $7M+/year to pay for above average production somewhere else.
by KevinV on
Dec 5, 2008 11:28 AM EST
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Yeah, we still sit with the same defensive problems, and I’m actually more critical of Casey’s defense at third than I am of Peralta’s defense at SS. But in the end, it comes down to where the value is, because if we can get Blake at a relatively cheap cost, still sign a closer, and have the trading chips to get a decent starter than its worth it. If acquiring Beltre (pretty much the only guy I think we can get to upgrade the position defensively and not lose ground offensively) means we can’t sign both a closer and starter, or have to then purge our system of talent to acquire a starter along with the closer (although that should leave us some extra cash around) than we’re coming out hurt in the big picture.
by hans on
Dec 5, 2008 12:02 PM EST
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Although I’d like to listen to what Orlando Cabrera is asking for and see if we can get him on the cheep, depending on what the Indians think about his defense.
by hans on
Dec 5, 2008 12:04 PM EST
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I am not convinced we can get a #3 starter in a trade at a reasonable price.
Assuming that Peralta can be as good as Blake at 3B, and I don’t know that he would be, I would just start Carrol and keep Barf & Marte on the bench. We would give up Blake’s power for Drub’s defense at SS. i think Carrol can match Blake OBA wise.
Is Drub over Peralta at SS + $7M worth giving up 18HR?
Inversely, would you trade $7M + some D at SS for 18HR?
Also, I am just sick of the whole Wedgie/Lacey Cake Bromance.
by KevinV on
Dec 5, 2008 1:33 PM EST
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Twins and Blake break off contract negotiations. And then there was one…(Dodgers)?
by xrickx on
Dec 6, 2008 1:25 PM EST
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How the hell do the Twins think they can sign a SS rather than a 3B?
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 2:13 PM EST
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maybe they have a fat guy with a good arm playing SS… who can make a seamless transition to third because his fatness won’t be a problem there.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 6, 2008 9:36 PM EST
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Anyway, I guess this somewhat confirms my point … the Indians are the only team that could land Blake without being the highest bidder. It is possible, however, that no team will actually go to three years.
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 2:14 PM EST
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Fiscal restraint on the open marketplace? Gasp.
You know what I’ve been thinking? Andy Sonnanstine and Willie Aybar solve a lot of problems and keep the payroll low, allowing Cleveland to splurge on a closer. That’d be an interesting trade. I’m not sure what Tampa is looking for in return, but both of those players fit Cleveland’s on-field needs and are expendable from Tampa’s end. Aybar’s off-field issues (substance abuse, domestic violence) are another issue, but they’re navigable.
Lastoria mentioned something this morning that I’ve neglected to consider, and it’s that Chris Gimenez is actually a 3B by trade. Aybar has the track record and he’s still young enough—I think the dude can take a hack at starting. If he fails, the Indians can plug in Jamie Carroll and see if Gimenez is ready.
by xrickx on
Dec 6, 2008 2:30 PM EST
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Gimenez’s usefullness is in filling the Casey Blake super-utility role (something he could probably do quite well). Faced with the prospect of Gimenez starting for two months would not be a good thing, though. After playing mainly 3B his rookie season, Gimenez has played 23 games there over the past 3 seasons. Stop gap for a few games – yes. Fill-in starter for a month or more – no.
by APV on
Dec 6, 2008 2:40 PM EST
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I don’t think his transition to 3B was as much a reflection of his ability to play 3B as it was his ability to catch.
by xrickx on
Dec 6, 2008 2:44 PM EST
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*his transition FROM third base to catcher
by xrickx on
Dec 6, 2008 2:44 PM EST
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And to clarify, Gimenez is far from the superior alternative. Aybar would be first in line. Then Carroll. And perhaps Hodges, if he’s doing well over the first few months in Buffalo. And then, and only then, Gimenez might be an option. I don’t think Blake outproduces Aybar by much.
by xrickx on
Dec 6, 2008 3:12 PM EST
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The Blake comparison probably overrates Gimenez as a hitter, and it definitely underrates him as a defensive piece. Giminez’s second position is catcher, not first base!
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 7:43 PM EST
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Wedge (oops, but I’ll leave it) Blake could catch …
all it would take is Wedge asking him to.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 6, 2008 9:39 PM EST
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Gimenez struggled at AAA. His triple slash numbers in 218 PA .272/.354/.374 are even worse considering his inflated batting average. The excellent strike zone judgment he displayed in AA eroded, 23:60 in AAA as opposed to 52:33 in AA. These are small sample sizes, but such a drastic difference after a change in levels is concerning. He was clearly too good for AA, but it remains to be seen if the same can be said for AAA. It should be noted that his stint in AAA was his first resembling anything close to being age appropriate in a few years.
This is to say nothing of his defense at third, of which I know nothing.
by ClarkM on
Dec 6, 2008 3:47 PM EST
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Yea, he struggled in his first 120 ABs at Akron in 2007. Then, he repeated and dominated to start 2008. Sure, his age doesn’t put him on the prospect path. And sure, it was his second taste of Akron, but I don’t think coming back to the same league after only 120 ABs is a repeat. He had a rough first 200 ABs at Buffalo, but his on-base skills stayed in tact. All that really suffered was his power, and his entire resume, including what he’s done in the DWL this winter, suggest he has more pop than what he displayed. The strikeouts concern me, but the walk rate (and his propensity to get hit by pitches) suggest he has an underlying useful offensive game.
In summary, I’m not too worried about a power outage in his first 200 ABs in Buffalo. If he starts off with a few hot months in Buffalo, he’s what Matt LeCroy was supposed to be.
by xrickx on
Dec 6, 2008 4:38 PM EST
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Double-A and Triple-A aren’t usually that different in difficulty, not even close to that different. It seems likely to me he let himself get outside of his game after he was promoted. My guess is that he’ll be solid in Columbus this year.
by Jay on
Dec 6, 2008 7:44 PM EST
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Is it supposed to be more encouraging that instead of being over-matched by the competition, he let himself get outside of his game, whatever that means?
by ClarkM on
Dec 7, 2008 10:11 AM EST
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Sure. You can’t adjust your way out of being overmatched, you can only grow or develop your way out of it, and Gimenez is getting too old for that.
Remember when Manny went something like 1-for-18 in a playoff series? You think he was overmatched, or do you think he let himself get outside of his game, whatever that means?
by Jay on
Dec 7, 2008 11:30 AM EST
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This is a fair point, Gimenez’s sample in Buffalo is too small, so let’s just combine his numbers from Akron and Buffalo this year. Combined, his triple slash numbers are .304/.421/.452. Not a bad line, but he’s 25 (26 now) and his BABIP was .385. I’m also concerned about him sustaining that walk rate with such a moderate ISO.
His track record is entirely uninspiring. He had a great half season at Kinston in his Age 24 season, followed up by a brief, but poor showing in Akron. Before that, he spent two season at Lake County putting up mediocre numbers.
This isn’t to say that I think Gimenez is without value. I like the defensive versatility, I just don’t see him as a viable starting third baseman, especially in 2009.
by ClarkM on
Dec 7, 2008 8:22 PM EST
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I would like a move that nets us Sonnanstine.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 7, 2008 8:18 AM EST
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They need a right fielder. Gutierrez for Sonnanstine?
by odradek on
Dec 7, 2008 11:06 PM EST
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Straddling the fence.
I wonder if Gutierrez is even good enough. Probably not.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on
Dec 7, 2008 11:24 PM EST
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I’d do it. Don’t think Gutz would be enough though.
by Logodaedalus on
Dec 8, 2008 12:30 PM EST
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I can’t see how Gootz is ever going to be good enough for a club that doesn’t need a top defensive CF.
The first question you ask in this case is, do they move their CF to RF when they get Gootz, and the second is, what’s that worth to them?
by Jay on
Dec 8, 2008 1:37 PM EST
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NOOOOOoooooooooo!!!
For the love of god, Twins or Dodgers let Wedge and Blake move on with their lives.
by PatBordersHelmet on
Dec 6, 2008 4:52 PM EST
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I wish I had a more rational explanation to back it up, but that’s more or less the way I feel as well.
by fleerdon on
Dec 6, 2008 8:13 PM EST
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Join the club! My nightmare is that Casey gets resigned and Santana traded for a crappy/gritty veteran.
by mcrose on
Dec 6, 2008 10:59 PM EST
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Seriously… LA, up your damn offer already.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on
Dec 6, 2008 9:41 PM EST
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Wow. Rockies asked for Kevin Slowey and Denard Span for Garrett Atkins.
by odradek on
Dec 6, 2008 10:03 PM EST
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That is a whole lot of Garrett Atkins love right there.
by Jay on
Dec 7, 2008 1:24 AM EST
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Evidently Aaron Laffey and Josh Barfield would NOT be enough.
by fleerdon on
Dec 7, 2008 10:03 AM EST
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