BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Will Carroll's team-by-team look at potential injury risk turns today to our Indians courtesy of Baseball Prospectus. (We contributed lineups, rotations and questions on behalf of LGT and SBN.) What jumps right out: our green-light-starved rotation, which includes two yellow-light ratings and three reds.
Just two months ago, Carroll and BP presented the Indians with the Dick Martin Award, given annually to the organization with the most effective medical staff. The article confirms the Indians' status as the best team in this area over the past three seasons, and Carroll lauds the overall state of the Indians roster. When it comes to the rotation, however, while he doesn't exactly use the word "minefield," still and all, there it is:
- A jolting red light for Fausto, based on last year's jump in workload. Carroll doesn't predict a disastrous season, just a high chance of an injury disrupting it at some point.
- Another red light for Byrd, which seems a little harsh for a guy who basically hasn't missed a start in three entire seasons.
- A red light for Cliff, more disappointing than surprising.
- Totally unsurprising yellow lights for Sabathia and Westbrook.
As an aside, I submitted a bunch of "medical questions" to Will so he could choose one for this article. Just for fun, here are the other questions I submitted (after the jump):

- Westbrook was terrific after coming off the DL, should we assume that his injury is as behind him, as much a pitching injury can be?
- Does anything Paul Byrd has said about his pituitary something or whatever make any sense?
- Gut feeling -- is J.D. Martin going to have that second-year-after-TJ bounce?
- Gut feeling -- Scott Lewis' future health and effectiveness?
- Franklin Gutierrez -- more like a gazelle or a cheetah?
- Any hope for a career-ending injury for Brandon Phillips, so we can stop torturing ourselves?
- Can we get the staff's lips surgically removed from Casey Blake's butt?
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by APV on Feb 10, 2008 2:48 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by emil minty on
Feb 10, 2008 6:06 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by hans on
Feb 10, 2008 8:04 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by hans on
Feb 10, 2008 8:12 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Nat on Feb 10, 2008 3:32 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Carrol seems to meddle a little to far into the "prediction" of injury as opposed to the "risk" when he talks about each player, but if looking at each starting pitcher along the lines of risk for injury next year, I don't have a a problem with any of the rankings. Lee and Westbrook are both coming off of seasons being injured, CC has the weight issue, Carmona had the jump in innings, and Byrd is 36. It would be nice if all of our starters were 26 yr olds with no history of injury, but nobody has it that good. I'm not to concerned about the pitching because of our depth in AAA and likelyhood that although each one of these starters has some degree of risk of being injured next year, its not likely to be any worse than last year.
by hans on Feb 10, 2008 3:52 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
In other words, when he explains why a player got a yellow light, he's not explaining why he thinks the player should have a yellow light, he's explaining why the system gave him one.
by Jay on
Feb 10, 2008 5:04 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I guess my point about the predictive/risk thing, is that he "expects" Carmona to have an injury similar to Westbrook next year. Its probably all just personal bias here, He's talking about the team that I root for and is saying that he "expects" an injury for Fausto, as opposed to simply saying Fausto is going to be at a heightened risk for injury (i.e. don't be surprised if he does get injured). There's a little more modesty in the latter. Like I said, its probably all bias because its the Indians he's talking about, if this was another team I wouldn't even given it second thought while reading that he "expects" injuries certain players next year.
by hans on
Feb 10, 2008 8:20 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by NickFantana on Feb 10, 2008 4:19 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by cheech99 on Feb 10, 2008 4:24 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
More specifically, I have little doubt that he takes pitch count data into count, writing as he does for the folks who brought us the Pitcher Abuse Points system -- and as the author of the definitive book on the subject.
by Jay on
Feb 10, 2008 5:02 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by CU Adam on Feb 10, 2008 4:29 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield

Whew!
by Brick. on Feb 10, 2008 5:28 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Brick. on Feb 10, 2008 5:38 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by hans on
Feb 10, 2008 8:22 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I'm a big fan of Nate Silver (who actually uses logic and reason) and Kevin Goldstein at BPro. Joe Sheehan is an above average writer, but like most of the press relies on his gut too much. Will Carroll is very prolific (lots of words and columns), but isn't much of a writer, and when it comes to actually knowing anything, it looks to me that he is just basically guessing.
by oxforddave on Feb 10, 2008 8:36 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I don't know, just like we seem to have a better idea of how good our players will project to relative to the James's/ZIPS's/etc, so too do we continually outperform what the traffic light injury assessment system would portend.
by cheech99 on
Feb 10, 2008 8:42 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
If not, I'm curious as to why 2 years ago, they were described as being pretty terrible, to today as being described as good as it gets.
by ClarkM on
Feb 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Providing a lot of raw information does not really lend itself to great writing -- there's rarely a grand argument he's trying to make -- but I quite enjoy reading Will's stuff. Nate uses logic and reason but also has the benefit of dealing with raw, hard data. Both guys are pioneers in their areas, but Will's path is more uncharted by far. I mean, PECOTA is damned impressive, but Bill James was doing projections based on objective data 20 years ago.
Nobody has ever really attempted to cover medical issues, let alone to systematize them, the way that Will has, and while it's unlikely he'll have the kind of impact Bill James has, he is in his own way just as new and radical of a baseball writer. No doubt he's learned a lot on the fly, and the results aren't always pretty. Hell, for any of us writing about baseball, the results are rarely pretty, particularly when you start making predictions. But I'd rather have a guy admit to having to reverse himself than too stubborn to do so. Wouldn't you?
by Jay on
Feb 10, 2008 11:35 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I have read Will Carroll's stuff for a couple of years now. He is prolific. He provides lots of "information." But this information never seems to be right more than random guesses.
Remember the gyroball? What a freaking joke. He went on and on about this pitch that breaks more than any other pitch, but he couldn't tell us much about it was thrown as it was a secret. When it turned out the secret "double spin" mechanics was just putting a football spin on the ball, it was obvious to anyone with any physical intuition that that kind of a pitch just won't break. Once all of this came out, the proponent of the gyroball (Carroll) just clammed up and you never heard him mention it again.
That is always his game. Rumor and innuendo. Now he has some system that tells us who is more likely to get injured. Guess what. It is a secret. Why? I don't know. Could it be because he is just guessing?
I'd trust most of the main LGT members opinions about who is likely to get injured on the tribe more than Carrolls. Jay, I'd trust your opinion about 10 times more than his. I mean really, Betancourt and Hafner are greens? Sabathia is a yellow (instead of green)? Lee is a red (to me, he is much more likely to just suck, than to get injured)? His insight on the tribe and Westbrook is that the training staff shut him down before he could injure himself more. I was watching that game. They shut him down because it was obvious he was so hurt he couldn't throw. Thanks for the insight, Will.
Unlike you, I haven't seen the man learn from his mistakes. He didn't admit the gyroball stuff. And he had to admit his false prognostications about Sabathia (horrible mechanics), K-Rod (his elbow is about to fall off), and Prior (the best mechanics he has ever seen) as they were ridiculously wrong.
I'm sure Carroll is a nice guy and all, but can you name one thing that you learned about the tribe or their competitors in the last 3-4 years from this guy? I can't.
by oxforddave on
Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
"The Indians' work on the mental aspect of player development is legendary. Add in a commitment to technology, developing their staff, and an attention to detail that's downright corporate and it's little wonder that the Indians are a fashionable pick to be the next A's. Of course, the A's are still the A's, Mark Shapiro is not Billy Beane (positively and negatively), and the "small market when convenient" arguments don't work in Cleveland.
What's not noticed is just how good the Indians have gotten on the medhead side of things. Since bringing Lonnie Soloff over from Cincinnati, the Indians have improved their stats every year and could be a top contender for the Dick Martin Award [this was said before 2006] just by looking at their lights above. As with every other team that's considered a favorite, the Indians made a solid, discernible shift towards eliminating, managing, and containing injuries at some point and have an organized, multi-disciplinary plan for health in effect.
Yes, the last statement sounded like a bad mission statement from Initech. You could just as easily say that the Indians simply take health seriously, but that would imply that other teams do not. Most do, but few are as focused on it. From trainers to management, from GM to area scout, there's an organizational focus on proactive health. The one Achilles heel (no pun intended) is that the team doesn't do the best job at getting players back on time. Whether this is a more conservative tack for rehab or simply that they're just average at one part of the game is hardly problematic. Everyone has room for improvement, even this team. "
by 7foot3 on
Feb 11, 2008 12:14 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by 7foot3 on
Feb 11, 2008 12:21 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Roger Dorn on
Feb 11, 2008 2:09 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by 7foot3 on
Feb 11, 2008 5:46 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Get them back on time? On whose schedule is that? Maybe that's been part of the solution, not holding to some arbitrary schedule.
Can't they call it something besides "The Dick Martin Award." It really doesn't work. This is only true Dick Martin to me.
by Bogalusa Bomber on
Feb 12, 2008 11:30 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by fwembt on
Feb 11, 2008 10:22 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
This column on the 2004 FA had some bad predictions.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3622
Kline Green?
Pavano Green?
Leiber Green?
Wright Yellow?
Millwood Red with this comment "I see a guy who'll be out of baseball while George W. Bush is still President."
by ronh on
Feb 12, 2008 5:47 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Per Hans' comment above, about Astro - the "position change penalty" seems a bit too subjective. Maybe his phrasing of the sentence is just poor. But if it's not, I suppose in order to assess a penalty for that, he would have to have data that changing positions (from a fit 22 year-old SS to a still fit 22 year-old 2B, specifically) leads to a greater injury risk because, somehow, he might trip and fall easier since he is on the right side of the diamond. (I'm making that sound worse than it is to make a point).
by Thommy on Feb 10, 2008 8:38 PM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Brick. on
Feb 10, 2008 8:46 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Thommy on
Feb 10, 2008 10:07 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Brick. on
Feb 10, 2008 10:43 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
he would have to have data that changing positions (from a fit 22 year-old SS to a still fit 22 year-old 2B, specifically) leads to a greater injury risk
Exactly, that is what the data shows. But remember, it's not like he's saying it's a massive risk. Cabrera has this risk factor, plus some injury history, and he's still only a yellow light. I didn't expect it and wasn't happy about it, but I find it hard to argue with two mild risk factors making a yellow light.
by Jay on
Feb 10, 2008 11:14 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Now that I think about it, both E and Carroll both have an obsession/expertise/"pretend degree" in sports medicine too...wait a minute...
by supermarioelia on
Feb 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Jay on
Feb 10, 2008 11:53 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
BTW, there is a parellel study called the Bogalusa Heart Study - shout-out to the Bomber - that is more racially diverse - a common criticism of the Framingham Study.
by mauichuck on
Feb 11, 2008 9:16 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
And on a similar note, what did you think of the way the NY Times reported the stoppage of that ongoing diabetes study? They made it sound as if controlling blood sugars had been proven to increase mortality, whereas the actual study compared intensive vs. conventional attempts to control blood sugar, and it was only the intensive therapy that was increasing mortality. Very frustrating to think of the damage an article like that can do.
by supermarioelia on
Feb 11, 2008 10:29 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
The Framingham Study is almost as important for what it isn't as opposed to what it is. It is not a predictor for individuals - it's a predictor for classes of individuals. So it states that patients with advanced AS have a 0.6% incidence of sudden death per year. What it doesn't say is that this guy - the one right here - has a 90% probability of being dead in 26.7 years. Mostly cuz it doesn't define what "advanced AS" is and that each patients predisposing factors are different.
Now if we get back to what triggered this, I keep on harping on CC's weight as an injury factor. Why? Cuz I can see it, that's why plus I have some knowledge about the force factors on his knees. Here's what I don't know: the general condition of his lower body and the cross sectional area of his femoral/tibial joints. Even if I did I'm not sure there's any useful information on how that data can be used to predict the likelihood of any serious injury.
Here's another tidbit: more data doesn't necessarily improve the accuracy of the predictors. It would take years, if not generations of data accumulation to generate enough data to have 90% confidence in any prediction. That's another outcome of Framingham. Just like the old blues song says, "the doc says it'll kill me but he won't say when."
by mauichuck on
Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
The Indians have 6 players who fall into the red zone; you can expect 40% of these players will have injuries that will put them on the DL, 12 players in the yellow zone: 20% of these players will spend sometime on the DL and the balance fall into the green zone 10% of which will spend time on the DL. That form of presentation would be more familiar to me anyway.
by mauichuck on
Feb 11, 2008 1:56 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Spidey on
Feb 11, 2008 3:36 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Bogalusa Bomber on
Feb 12, 2008 11:18 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
But then again medical research can run amok. Witness the Tuskegee syphilis study. And I know, I know that's an anomaly - but still ethical abuses by medical researchers are not unheard of even now. But without knowing the details all I know is I don't want some mamaluke at the NYC deciding what is and what isn't productive research.
by mauichuck on
Feb 11, 2008 11:52 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
What data? I'd be terribly shocked if this kind of injury-specific data was anywhere, as even more rudimentary injury-risk studies have not been done (and publicly disclosed). I hope I'm wrong though, I'd be keen on seeing it.
I understand your points about Will being well-respected and informed, and I understand that. But my background (and I'm sure many others here) is as a scientist, who are trained to be critical of anything presented to them - you know, that whole null hypothesis thing. Anyway, this is the perspective that (I'm guessing) mario and others have on issues like this. This approach is not personal to you or will, it is, by design, impersonal.
If I was Rod Tidwell, I'd say "SHOW ME THE DATA!"
by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 AM EST 0 recs
Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Thommy on
Feb 11, 2008 9:41 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by mauichuck on
Feb 11, 2008 9:44 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Jay on
Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I have the same skeptical attitude toward that guy with the proprietary defensive metrics, but there are a few differences for me, the first being that that other guy is also really smug. The second is that there are other defensive metrics out there, while nobody is really doing what Will is doing.
The third comes from being a regular reader, by which you get an incredible sense of the amount of research and validation that goes into what he writes. He gathers information from bona fide experts (not claiming to be one), processes it, and shares it -- all in massive quantities. And there is nobody else doing it.
So the upshot is that this particular system is a small part of what he does. And while I'd like to be able to scrutinize it as you would, that disappointment is minor compared to my appreciation of his expertise, his work, and the information and insight that nobody else is even attempting to provide.
by Jay on
Feb 11, 2008 10:22 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
But, I've come to peace with the situation because of two things: one is basically everything jay has already mentioned. Two is the biggest thing, however: it's just baseball. Even if these guys are talking out their rear-ends, what's the worst that could happen? I say find some rational, respected writers and stick with those guys. At very least, it gives us cause to argue and discuss the finer points of something we all love. It's not like we're shooting people into space based on Will Caroll's research data.
by Turkmenbashi on
Feb 11, 2008 10:36 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
As movies have taught us, it's not even the data you have to worry about when launching people into space. The two main things are 1) long, blond-haired religious freaks with explosives taped around their chests and 2) senators who publicly discredit scientists for their own benefit, even though they are aware that there were 18 hours of static on the tape, and not just a few seconds.
by Thommy on
Feb 11, 2008 11:03 AM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Voltaire on
Feb 11, 2008 12:05 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Jay on
Feb 11, 2008 3:27 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Bogalusa Bomber on
Feb 11, 2008 6:51 PM EST
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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
by Thommy on
Feb 11, 2008 7:26 PM EST
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In defense
While I will make no apologies for asking to see data that backs up a statement, I think some here are being a bit hard on the lad. Let's face it, the risk-assessment of the health of baseball players is in its infancy at best. It's fairly easy to come up with and refine a system for pitcher wear and tear (say, PAP) because one can find integers that directly contribute to the conclusion (IP, NP, Age, etc). But predicting injury is a bold frontier, as is helping the masses understand just what the chances are of their team's poster boy (bobblehead boy?) missing half of next season because he strained his inferior duodenum while sneezing last week.
It might seem like I'm back tracking a bit, and maybe I am - but I think that a guy who is pretty much out on his own, and is good enough to field questions from a bunch of morons like us deserves a bit of a break. FWIW.
by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 2:54 PM EST 0 recs
Re: In defense
by talonk on
Feb 11, 2008 3:20 PM EST
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Re: In defense
It's one thing if this is viewed as another in a long line of blogospher bloviations - it's quite another if you view it as serious research. If it's just so much hot air then, yeah, it's cute and all - interesting even - but that's all it is: hot air. If, on the other hand, it's serious research, then it fails on a number of levels, the most important of which is the "propriety" nature of the data - always the first cover for BS - along with a complete absence of statistical analysis coupled with a lack of retrospective criticism. In other words show me the data, how you crunched it and the historical accuracy of your predictions.
Like I alluded to upthread, if you wanna see how this stuff is really done by degreed professionals who are recognized by the scientific community as experts in their field, take a look at the Framingham study. It's all over the Internet and there's nothing "proprietary" about it. That's what serious research on health predictors looks like.
by mauichuck on
Feb 13, 2008 7:41 AM EST
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Re: In defense
by NickFantana on
Feb 13, 2008 9:51 AM EST
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Re: In defense
My point is this - you get credit for being first, especially when the 'study' is, at the time, necessarily a mix of objective and subjective elements. The only thing we know right now is that this 'system' will be improved, either by Will of by somebody who takes the idea for creating a similar, more objective system, and evolves it.
I understand where you think I'm being soft. I suppose the difference in our points of view is how valid we want the study to be. Of course I want it to be as valid as you do, and I realize that it is in the best interest of all for us for you and I to be critical. But at the same time, I don't expect somebody trying to do this for the fist time to be perfect, nor do I expect someone who writes for BP to disclose everything we'd like them to disclose, as the nature of BP's business is increasingly proprietary in nature.
That being said, from my point of view, there are too many subjective elements in his comments that he muddles with objective elements. As a result, I can't interpret his grading scale as valid in many cases. So, to be blunt, I don't - but I still give him points for trying.
Either way, I appreciate the dialog with you.
by Thommy on
Feb 14, 2008 12:37 AM EST
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Re: In defense
Maybe he's the first guy to do a health predictor algorithm for baseball players- maybe. But he's far from the first guy to do health predictions. There is a well-established, excepted methodology that's recognized by all health professionals for this. So it's not like he invented health prediction - far from it. All I'm saying is he falls far short of meeting any excepted criteria for this study.
But we all wish he could tell us when Borowski's gonna break down, for instance. But as evidenced by last year's performance, even the doc's with the MRI's, arthrograms and a host of other objective data couldn't figure that out. So how is some guy with "inside information" gonna do better than those highly trained professionals?
Like I said before it's highly unlikely that trained professionals would take Mr. Carroll's work seriously. For baseball fan's it's fodder for pre-Spring conversation. But that's about it.
by mauichuck on
Feb 14, 2008 7:23 AM EST
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Re: In defense
Do you know that there is no data (as of a few years ago, anyway), that more flexible athletes are less injury prone than less flexible athletes? In other words, the established maxim of stretching to reduce the risk of injury has no scientific evidence to support it. Using that as one example, expecting somebody to come up with an objective, predictive model for athletic injury, specifically in the non-pitcher class, is not within the realm of reason at the moment. I'll take any start I can get.
by Thommy on
Feb 14, 2008 9:54 AM EST
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