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BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield

Will Carroll's team-by-team look at potential injury risk turns today to our Indians courtesy of Baseball Prospectus.  (We contributed lineups, rotations and questions on behalf of LGT and SBN.)  What jumps right out:  our green-light-starved rotation, which includes two yellow-light ratings and three reds.

Just two months ago, Carroll and BP presented the Indians with the Dick Martin Award, given annually to the organization with the most effective medical staff.  The article confirms the Indians' status as the best team in this area over the past three seasons, and Carroll lauds the overall state of the Indians roster.  When it comes to the rotation, however, while he doesn't exactly use the word "minefield," still and all, there it is:

  • A jolting red light for Fausto, based on last year's jump in workload.  Carroll doesn't predict a disastrous season, just a high chance of an injury disrupting it at some point.
  • Another red light for Byrd, which seems a little harsh for a guy who basically hasn't missed a start in three entire seasons.
  • A red light for Cliff, more disappointing than surprising.
  • Totally unsurprising yellow lights for Sabathia and Westbrook.
See the full article for more, it's free content.  Will has agreed to do a follow-up interview, if we come up with good questions.

As an aside, I submitted a bunch of "medical questions" to Will so he could choose one for this article.  Just for fun, here are the other questions I submitted (after the jump):

Star-divide

  1. Westbrook was terrific after coming off the DL, should we assume that his injury is as behind him, as much a pitching injury can be?
  2. Does anything Paul Byrd has said about his pituitary something or whatever make any sense?
  3. Gut feeling -- is J.D. Martin going to have that second-year-after-TJ bounce?
  4. Gut feeling -- Scott Lewis' future health and effectiveness?
  5. Franklin Gutierrez -- more like a gazelle or a cheetah?
  6. Any hope for a career-ending injury for Brandon Phillips, so we can stop torturing ourselves?
  7. Can we get the staff's lips surgically removed from Casey Blake's butt?

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Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
My question would be about the challenge associated with projecting Carmona.  Carmona throws a pitch that basically no one else in the league currently throws as far as I can tell (the mid-90s extreme sinker).  In situations where players possess a unique attribute, how do you (or do you) adjust your standard projections?  The same question could be raised about CC and his size.

by APV on Feb 10, 2008 2:48 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
wang's looks very similar.  both wang and fausto look consistently about 5mph faster than webb.

fausto
wang
webb

by emil minty on Feb 10, 2008 6:06 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I don't see that in those numbers. looking at the initial speed for each of those players' "sinker" Fausto is 5 MPH faster than both Wang and Webb. Where do you see the comparison between Fausto and Wang?

by hans on Feb 10, 2008 8:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Oh, I see that they don't break Wang's fastball down by sinker/fastball. Still there's a difference in break between Wang and Fausto and I have to say the that 1.5 (roughly) inch extra break in Fausto's pitch that is released at roughly the same speed of Wang's, has to be exponentially difficult to hit or hit well (i.e. not a ground ball). Wang struck hitters at more than a K/G less than Carmona did last year. An example that it is likely a difference in each pitchers ability. I see Wang as a "good" comparable to Carmona, but certainly not anything close to a "perfect" comparable (I know such a thing doesn't exist, but you get the idea).  

by hans on Feb 10, 2008 8:12 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I thought it was interesting that Hafner got the green light with all his elbow concerns and other freak injuries.  Especially since his reasons for giving Peralta and AstroCab yellow lights were pretty weak.  

by Nat on Feb 10, 2008 3:32 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Actually, I think most of the ratings make sense with the exception of the middle infielders (AsCab and Peralta) as the reasoning there gets a little sketchy.

Carrol seems to meddle a little to far into the "prediction" of injury as opposed to the "risk" when he talks about each player, but if looking at each starting pitcher along the lines of risk for injury next year, I don't have a a problem with any of the rankings. Lee and Westbrook are both coming off of seasons being injured, CC has the weight issue, Carmona had the jump in innings, and Byrd is 36. It would be nice if all of our starters were 26 yr olds with no history of injury, but nobody has it that good. I'm not to concerned about the pitching because of our depth in AAA and likelyhood that although each one of these starters has some degree of risk of being injured next year, its not likely to be any worse than last year.

by hans on Feb 10, 2008 3:52 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Again, these ratings are based on a system that includes historical data, as well as specific history for each player.  So there is no question of Will's reasoning with respect to any one given player, only possibly the predictive powers of the system.

In other words, when he explains why a player got a yellow light, he's not explaining why he thinks the player should have a yellow light, he's explaining why the system gave him one.

by Jay on Feb 10, 2008 5:04 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
well I'll pull back my compliant about AsCab and Peralta than.

I guess my point about the predictive/risk thing, is that he "expects" Carmona to have an injury similar to Westbrook next year. Its probably all just personal bias here, He's talking about the team that I root for and is saying that he "expects" an injury for Fausto, as opposed to simply saying Fausto is going to be at a heightened risk for injury (i.e. don't be surprised if he does get injured). There's a little more modesty in the latter. Like I said, its probably all bias because its the Indians he's talking about, if this was another team I wouldn't even given it second thought while reading that he "expects" injuries certain players next year.

by hans on Feb 10, 2008 8:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Anyone else surprised to see a green light for Hafner?  I thought some of his ongoing elbow problems might indicate a yellow.  Or have those been resolved?

by NickFantana on Feb 10, 2008 4:19 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I would ask him if he takes into account # of pitches thrown in a season relative to innings pitched (assuming there was no abuse like a # of 120+ pitch starts).  Like Pluto was getting at this morning when I was reading the DiaTribe.  Carmona was what, only like 41st in number of pitches thrown on the season?  

by cheech99 on Feb 10, 2008 4:24 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Will's ratings are based on a system that contains both objective data and numeric values based on his own subjective (but well informed) assessments.  Speaking generally, I have no doubt that whatever he's using is better than what Pluto is using.

More specifically, I have little doubt that he takes pitch count data into count, writing as he does for the folks who brought us the Pitcher Abuse Points system -- and as the author of the definitive book on the subject.

by Jay on Feb 10, 2008 5:02 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I was mildly surprised to see Raffy-R get a green light; I feel like every high leverage inning not pitched by CC or Fausto was pitched by Raffy.  Hopefully he's right about Raffy and wrong about Fausto.
Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Feb 10, 2008 4:29 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Rafael Betancourt

Whew!

"a nutting satisfying lager with hints of oak and cherries, with a strong opening and a polished finish" - Chuck

by Brick. on Feb 10, 2008 5:28 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I'm sure we know the answer, but i'd love to know Adam Miller's light color, just in case there's a pleasant surprise...
"a nutting satisfying lager with hints of oak and cherries, with a strong opening and a polished finish" - Chuck

by Brick. on Feb 10, 2008 5:38 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Carroll bloviates more than any of the other authors at BPro, and almost always he has nothing to back it up. 3 years ago he was saying that CC could never last, then 2 years ago he was saying that K-Rod was almost done. Why? Who knows.

I'm a big fan of Nate Silver (who actually uses logic and reason) and Kevin Goldstein at BPro. Joe Sheehan is an above average writer, but like most of the press relies on his gut too much. Will Carroll is very prolific (lots of words and columns), but isn't much of a writer, and when it comes to actually knowing anything, it looks to me that he is just basically guessing.

by oxforddave on Feb 10, 2008 8:36 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I guess he has his system and a numbers-oriented approach, but yes, he's been seemingly predicting several of our guys to crash and burn for years now, with not much to show for it.  Remember the exchange he had with Ocker when they had that heated exchange/bet or whatever when C.C missed a couple starts, but then C.C. finished strong?  Not saying Carroll didn't have the better approach or couldn't run rings around Sheldon in terms of baseball knowledge, but nothing came of that.  

I don't know, just like we seem to have a better idea of how good our players will project to relative to the James's/ZIPS's/etc, so too do we continually outperform what the traffic light injury assessment system would portend.  

by cheech99 on Feb 10, 2008 8:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Has C.C.'s mechanics changed over the past couple years?  

If not, I'm curious as to why 2 years ago, they were described as being pretty terrible, to today as being described as good as it gets.

by ClarkM on Feb 10, 2008 9:41 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Wow, Dave ... this is just going to be one of those things we don't agree.  I'm not terribly impressed with any of the writing at BP.  Will provides more raw information than all the guys you named put together.  At this point, I'd say he and KG are the reason to pay for a membership.

Providing a lot of raw information does not really lend itself to great writing -- there's rarely a grand argument he's trying to make -- but I quite enjoy reading Will's stuff.  Nate uses logic and reason but also has the benefit of dealing with raw, hard data.  Both guys are pioneers in their areas, but Will's path is more uncharted by far.  I mean, PECOTA is damned impressive, but Bill James was doing projections based on objective data 20 years ago.

Nobody has ever really attempted to cover medical issues, let alone to systematize them, the way that Will has, and while it's unlikely he'll have the kind of impact Bill James has, he is in his own way just as new and radical of a baseball writer.  No doubt he's learned a lot on the fly, and the results aren't always pretty.  Hell, for any of us writing about baseball, the results are rarely pretty, particularly when you start making predictions.  But I'd rather have a guy admit to having to reverse himself than too stubborn to do so.  Wouldn't you?

by Jay on Feb 10, 2008 11:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Yeah, I guess we disagree big time on this.

I have read Will Carroll's stuff for a couple of years now. He is prolific. He provides lots of "information." But this information never seems to be right more than random guesses.

Remember the gyroball? What a freaking joke. He went on and on about this pitch that breaks more than any other pitch, but he couldn't tell us much about it was thrown as it was a secret. When it turned out the secret "double spin" mechanics was just putting a football spin on the ball, it was obvious to anyone with any physical intuition that that kind of a pitch just won't break. Once all of this came out, the proponent of the gyroball (Carroll) just clammed up and you never heard him mention it again.

That is always his game. Rumor and innuendo. Now he has some system that tells us who is more likely to get injured. Guess what. It is a secret.  Why? I don't know. Could it be because he is just guessing?

I'd trust most of the main LGT members opinions about who is likely to get injured on the tribe more than Carrolls. Jay, I'd trust your opinion about 10 times more than his. I mean really, Betancourt and Hafner are greens? Sabathia is a yellow (instead of green)? Lee is a red (to me, he is much more likely to just suck, than to get injured)? His insight on the tribe and Westbrook is that the training staff shut him down before he could injure himself more. I was watching that game. They shut him down because it was obvious he was so hurt he couldn't throw. Thanks for the insight, Will.

Unlike you, I haven't seen the man learn from his mistakes. He didn't admit the gyroball stuff. And he had to admit his false prognostications about Sabathia (horrible mechanics), K-Rod (his elbow is about to fall off), and Prior (the best mechanics he has ever seen) as they were ridiculously wrong.

I'm sure Carroll is a nice guy and all, but can you name one thing that you learned about the tribe or their competitors in the last 3-4 years from this guy? I can't.

by oxforddave on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
something i learned about the tribe from will carroll:

"The Indians' work on the mental aspect of player development is legendary. Add in a commitment to technology, developing their staff, and an attention to detail that's downright corporate and it's little wonder that the Indians are a fashionable pick to be the next A's. Of course, the A's are still the A's, Mark Shapiro is not Billy Beane (positively and negatively), and the "small market when convenient" arguments don't work in Cleveland.

What's not noticed is just how good the Indians have gotten on the medhead side of things. Since bringing Lonnie Soloff over from Cincinnati, the Indians have improved their stats every year and could be a top contender for the Dick Martin Award [this was said before 2006] just by looking at their lights above. As with every other team that's considered a favorite, the Indians made a solid, discernible shift towards eliminating, managing, and containing injuries at some point and have an organized, multi-disciplinary plan for health in effect.

Yes, the last statement sounded like a bad mission statement from Initech. You could just as easily say that the Indians simply take health seriously, but that would imply that other teams do not. Most do, but few are as focused on it. From trainers to management, from GM to area scout, there's an organizational focus on proactive health. The one Achilles heel (no pun intended) is that the team doesn't do the best job at getting players back on time. Whether this is a more conservative tack for rehab or simply that they're just average at one part of the game is hardly problematic. Everyone has room for improvement, even this team. "

by 7foot3 on Feb 11, 2008 12:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
he's been talking up the indians front office, especially the medical aspect, for quite a while now, and was definitely on the bandwagon heading into 2004. He's had a pretty good grasp on the situation.

by 7foot3 on Feb 11, 2008 12:21 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
What does Carroll really bring to the table there though? All he is doing is saying that the Tribe is focused on the health of their players.

by Roger Dorn on Feb 11, 2008 2:09 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Health is a pretty underrated aspect of success. Just like most sabermetric analysis, it probably came about from someone trying to find the actual facts. How many people study what keeps players healthy, much less at the level that Carroll does? And he's not saying the Tribe is focused on it, but that few focus and succeed at the level the Tribe does.

by 7foot3 on Feb 11, 2008 5:46 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
"The one Achilles heel (no pun intended) is that the team doesn't do the best job at getting players back on time. Whether this is a more conservative tack for rehab or simply that they're just average at one part of the game is hardly problematic. Everyone has room for improvement, even this team. "

Get them back on time?  On whose schedule is that?  Maybe that's been part of the solution, not holding to some arbitrary schedule.

Can't they call it something besides "The Dick Martin Award."  It really doesn't work.  This is only true Dick Martin to me.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 12, 2008 11:30 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I think what Carroll is saying is that the chance is greater. I don't read anywhere that he says "CC will get hurt" or anything of the like. I don't remember that from the past years either. He explains that CC is is generally well conditioned but that there are some risks. I think we all know that. Same with his arguments for Byrd and Carmona. It makes sense to me.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Feb 11, 2008 10:22 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Has anyone ever gone back and computed how well his predictions turned out?

This column on the 2004 FA had some bad predictions.
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=3622

Kline Green?
Pavano Green?
Leiber Green?
Wright Yellow?
Millwood Red with this comment "I see a guy who'll be out of baseball while George W. Bush is still President."

by ronh on Feb 12, 2008 5:47 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
What 'system' is he referring to?  I've missed it if he has disclosed it, and would be curious to have an understanding of it.  Specifically, I'd like to understand the percentage of objective vs. subjective variables.

Per Hans' comment above, about Astro - the "position change penalty" seems a bit too subjective.  Maybe his phrasing of the sentence is just poor.  But if it's not, I suppose in order to assess a penalty for that, he would have to have data that changing positions (from a fit 22 year-old SS to a still fit 22 year-old 2B, specifically) leads to a greater injury risk because, somehow, he might trip and fall easier since he is on the right side of the diamond. (I'm making that sound worse than it is to make a point).

by Thommy on Feb 10, 2008 8:38 PM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
i think it's pretty indisputable that victor is less likely to get hurt because he can throw with both hands.  what more do you want?

by Brick. on Feb 10, 2008 8:46 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
The trouble is he can throw with both hands, but only one arm. That's why he's yellow.

by Thommy on Feb 10, 2008 10:07 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
what's funny about this is i had typed 'arms', then went back to make sure it was victor and saw he said 'hands' wondering to myself "does that sound right?"

by Brick. on Feb 10, 2008 10:43 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I don't think he has disclosed the system, nor can he disclose all the data that goes into it.  Will is possibly the best-sourced Internet-based baseball writer, which is the reason he's become BP's Gammons-like rumor mill guy on the side.  This puts him in the awkward position of not being able to explain some of his findings fully -- and, possibly, of not being able to explain what new information might have made him change his mind about a player.  Possibly.

he would have to have data that changing positions (from a fit 22 year-old SS to a still fit 22 year-old 2B, specifically) leads to a greater injury risk

Exactly, that is what the data shows.  But remember, it's not like he's saying it's a massive risk.  Cabrera has this risk factor, plus some injury history, and he's still only a yellow light.  I didn't expect it and wasn't happy about it, but I find it hard to argue with two mild risk factors making a yellow light.

by Jay on Feb 10, 2008 11:14 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I understand that these guys can't disclose all of their data for obvious competition purposes, but I still have issues putting a great deal of stock in analysis where I'm told to take their word for it because of their "expertise". Without something tangible to critique, these mystery analyses are no different to me than those crazy formulas Eazy E busts out from time to time.

Now that I think about it, both E and Carroll both have an obsession/expertise/"pretend degree" in sports medicine too...wait a minute...

by supermarioelia on Feb 10, 2008 11:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Will has direct access to front office personnel, which means not only that his information is better, but that he's considered a credible expert by those in a position to know.  If he wasn't considered legit, nobody would return his phone calls.  And as a writer starting off on the Internet, I can tell you first-hand, there's only one way to be considered legit, and that's to have people respect what you're writing.

by Jay on Feb 10, 2008 11:53 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Mario, at some point in your medical studies you'll come across a classic cardio-vascular disease study called the Framingham Heart Study.  Beginning in 1948 It follows the cardiac history of over 5,000 participants.  It's considered the most exhaustive study of it's kind and is still ongoing now using the third generation of the original participants.  The major contribution to medicine is the establishment of CVD predictors for groups of individuals, but not necessarily for individuals themselves.  For example the morbidly obese, tobacco users have a MI rate of ~2.5% per annum beginning at age 35.  Using this "logic" Winston Churchill shoudda been dead by age 65 - instead he lasted til damn near 90.  In other words the study is useful for groups but less useful for individuals.

BTW, there is a parellel study called the Bogalusa Heart Study - shout-out to the Bomber - that is more racially diverse - a common criticism of the Framingham Study.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 11, 2008 9:16 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
C'mon Chuck, we covered Framingham nearly right off the bat last year. Most family docs' offices here that are equipped with computers in each examining room often have a program to show patients how incremental changes in their lipid profile, BP, blood sugars and smoking will affect their x-year mortality. And that data is almost entirely based on the Framingham data. Whether it's accurate for the individual or not, it still provides motivation in real-time for the patients to change.

And on a similar note, what did you think of the way the NY Times reported the stoppage of that ongoing diabetes study? They made it sound as if controlling blood sugars had been proven to increase mortality, whereas the actual study compared intensive vs. conventional attempts to control blood sugar, and it was only the intensive therapy that was increasing mortality. Very frustrating to think of the damage an article like that can do.

by supermarioelia on Feb 11, 2008 10:29 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
See Mario I don't know where you're at in your studies - given the laisez faire attitude and time spent on this site I figured you were still doing anatomy, physiology, pharm et al and not into pathology and diagnosis.  I also assumed that you're not in the clinics yet.  Sorry, I should have guessed you were more advanced, but then again I allowed for the fact that your studying up there in the hinterlands and didn't have access to any real medical information.

The Framingham Study is almost as important for what it isn't as opposed to what it is.  It is not a predictor for individuals - it's a predictor for classes of individuals.  So it states that patients with advanced AS have a 0.6% incidence of sudden death per year.  What it doesn't say is that this guy - the one right here - has a 90% probability of being dead in 26.7 years.  Mostly cuz it doesn't define what "advanced AS" is and that each patients predisposing factors are different.

Now if we get back to what triggered this, I keep on harping on CC's weight as an injury factor.  Why?  Cuz I can see it, that's why plus I have some knowledge about the force factors on his knees.  Here's what I don't know: the general condition of his lower body and the cross sectional area of his femoral/tibial joints.  Even if I did I'm not sure there's any useful information on how that data can be used to predict the likelihood of any serious injury.

Here's another tidbit: more data doesn't necessarily improve the accuracy of the predictors.  It would take years, if not generations of data accumulation to generate enough data to have 90% confidence in any prediction.  That's another outcome of Framingham.  Just like the old blues song says, "the doc says it'll kill me but he won't say when."

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 11, 2008 10:58 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I just realized that my asides to Mario are rather murky.  If this "study" followed the classic Framingham pattern and we kept to the green/yellow/red criteria it would read something like this:

The Indians have 6 players who fall into the red zone; you can expect 40% of these players will have injuries that will put them on the DL, 12 players in the yellow zone: 20% of these players will spend sometime on the DL and the balance fall into the green zone 10% of which will spend time on the DL.  That form of presentation would be more familiar to me anyway.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 11, 2008 1:56 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Thanks for that reasoning.  It would not just be more "familiar", but it would be more informative.  What is the definition of each color?  I know your approach might not fit into this presentation format, but an explanation of what the lights mean would help.

by Spidey on Feb 11, 2008 3:36 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Your predictive pattern makes sense to me when it comes to running an organization, and that may be another reason that Shapiro & Co have focused so much on depth.  "40% of you will go down with an injury...I don't know which 40%, but I'll base my planning on that." It seems that the author has a risk pool that he's bearing down on particular players.  Like when you buy insurance, and you have to pay a certain risk premium because you fall into a pool of characteristics that define a certain premium payment.  You can argue till your blue how you're are different, and maybe sometimes you can win.  But you do have to know what the risk criteria are in order to defend yourself, or you enter into a Twilight Zone conversation.  For example, I didn't understand Astro Cab's Yellow based on a position change?  And that Borowski is not a Red is pretty startling, especially since the Phillies wouldn't sign him because they thought based on his medicals that his arm would fall off in the next two years...and now it's the second year. Maybe he's got more layered reasoning for those particular players in his back pocket, but just seems a bit surprising on first glance.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 12, 2008 11:18 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Oh yeah, the diabetes thingy.  I'm unfamiliar with the details but I know this: politics and research are a bad combination.  The AIDS crisis is a good history lesson because it was so politically charged.  On one hand you had the afflicted group urging a stratospherically increase in spending - even though it was clear at the time that there were few researchers capable of doing productive research on the disease and another group proclaiming that AIDS was some kinda biblical punishment for immoral behavior.  While the truth was/is that insight into how the HIV virus works will offer vast insight into other diseases.

But then again medical research can run amok.  Witness the Tuskegee syphilis study.  And I know, I know that's an anomaly - but still ethical abuses by medical researchers are not unheard of even now.  But without knowing the details all I know is I don't want some mamaluke at the NYC deciding what is and what isn't productive research.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 11, 2008 11:52 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Exactly, that is what the data shows.

What data?  I'd be terribly shocked if this kind of injury-specific data was anywhere, as even more rudimentary injury-risk studies have not been done (and publicly disclosed). I hope I'm wrong though, I'd be keen on seeing it.

I understand your points about Will being well-respected and informed, and I understand that.  But my background (and I'm sure many others here) is as a scientist, who are trained to be critical of anything presented to them - you know, that whole null hypothesis thing.  Anyway, this is the perspective that (I'm guessing) mario and others have on issues like this.  This approach is not personal to you or will, it is, by design, impersonal.  

If I was Rod Tidwell, I'd say "SHOW ME THE DATA!"

by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 9:40 AM EST   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Wow, that posted wrong, sorry. Should be under previous tree in response to Jay.

by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 9:41 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Thommy, you're nuts on here.  Where are these predictors coming from and what's the validity?  
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 11, 2008 9:44 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I will follow up with him about injury risk as it relates to changing positions.

by Jay on Feb 11, 2008 10:23 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I do understand where you're coming from on this, and it's just a problem he's going to have to deal with in his career -- how much he can share, and how he can present things.

I have the same skeptical attitude toward that guy with the proprietary defensive metrics, but there are a few differences for me, the first being that that other guy is also really smug.  The second is that there are other defensive metrics out there, while nobody is really doing what Will is doing.

The third comes from being a regular reader, by which you get an incredible sense of the amount of research and validation that goes into what he writes.  He gathers information from bona fide experts (not claiming to be one), processes it, and shares it -- all in massive quantities.  And there is nobody else doing it.

So the upshot is that this particular system is a small part of what he does.  And while I'd like to be able to scrutinize it as you would, that disappointment is minor compared to my appreciation of his expertise, his work, and the information and insight that nobody else is even attempting to provide.

by Jay on Feb 11, 2008 10:22 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
Although I'm not a scientist, I tend to err on the side of SHOW ME THE DATA as well. This is the biggest problem I have with reading stuff on B-Pro and relying on other "sabr"-type stuff.

But, I've come to peace with the situation because of two things: one is basically everything jay has already mentioned. Two is the biggest thing, however: it's just baseball. Even if these guys are talking out their rear-ends, what's the worst that could happen? I say find some rational, respected writers and stick with those guys. At very least, it gives us cause to argue and discuss the finer points of something we all love. It's not like we're shooting people into space based on Will Caroll's research data.

Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Feb 11, 2008 10:36 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
It's not like we're shooting people into space based on Will Caroll's research data.

As movies have taught us, it's not even the data you have to worry about when launching people into space. The two main things are 1) long, blond-haired religious freaks with explosives taped around their chests and 2) senators who publicly discredit scientists for their own benefit, even though they are aware that there were 18 hours of static on the tape, and not just a few seconds.

by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 11:03 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
This put a smile on my face. I didn't know anyone else watched that movie. Is it any good? I'm too much of a Sagan fan to judge objectively.

by Voltaire on Feb 11, 2008 12:05 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I really like that movie.  I can tolerate the corny parts, and the acting is awfully good.

by Jay on Feb 11, 2008 3:27 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
An underappreciated film.  I've watched it several times on DVD and grab it even when its on the tube. Some of the acting is cringe inducing, the but story is so good it runs right over it.  I can tolerate it all to watch Jodie Foster, David Morse and John Hurt chew scenery.  The strength and weakness of the movie was in the same place, the casting. Some of it brilliant, some of it was "??"  The director Robert Zemeckis is brilliant anyway.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Feb 11, 2008 6:51 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: BP sez - Tribe rotation an injury minefield
I own it, and throw it in when the mood strikes, as it did last night.  It's no There will be blood, but it's worth periodic repeated viewings.  FYA, I almost did a 2001 doubleheader, but wanted to get to bed before 1 on a school night.

by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 7:26 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

In defense
Will is apparently a little bit of a lightning rod, huh?

While I will make no apologies for asking to see data that backs up a statement, I think some here are being a bit hard on the lad.  Let's face it, the risk-assessment of the health of baseball players is in its infancy at best.  It's fairly easy to come up with and refine a system for pitcher wear and tear (say, PAP) because one can find integers that directly contribute to the conclusion (IP, NP, Age, etc).  But predicting injury is a bold frontier, as is helping the masses understand just what the chances are of their team's poster boy (bobblehead boy?) missing half of next season because he strained his inferior duodenum while sneezing last week.

It might seem like I'm back tracking a bit, and maybe I am - but I think that a guy who is pretty much out on his own, and is good enough to field questions from a bunch of morons like us deserves a bit of a break.  FWIW.

by Thommy on Feb 11, 2008 2:54 PM EST   0 recs

Re: In defense
Hmmm .... Maybe Carroll got hold of McCoy's tricorder sensor ....

by talonk on Feb 11, 2008 3:20 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: In defense
 Nah Tommy, I don't think you're being too hard on this guy; on the contrary I think we're all being much too lenient.

It's one thing if this is viewed as another in a long line of blogospher bloviations - it's quite another if you view it as serious research.  If it's just so much hot air then, yeah, it's cute and all - interesting even - but that's all it is: hot air.  If, on the other hand, it's serious research, then it fails on a number of levels, the most important of which is the "propriety" nature of the data - always the first cover for BS - along with a complete absence of statistical analysis coupled with a lack of retrospective criticism.  In other words show me the data, how you crunched it and the historical accuracy of your predictions.

Like I alluded to upthread, if you wanna see how this stuff is really done by degreed professionals who are recognized by the scientific community as experts in their field, take a look at the Framingham study.  It's all over the Internet and there's nothing "proprietary" about it.  That's what serious research on health predictors looks like.    

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 13, 2008 7:41 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: In defense
Furthermore, there is solid precedent within the sports statistics community of being open about the accuracy of different projection systems.  If his goal is to make this sort of analysis more mainstream and acceptable one would assume a critical piece of that agenda would be involving other people in the process and demonstrating a track record.

by NickFantana on Feb 13, 2008 9:51 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: In defense
I absolutely get where you are coming from on this.  I was educated in ripping apart research papers, be it criticizing poor sample sizes, power, or very tiny holes in logic.

My point is this - you get credit for being first, especially when the 'study' is, at the time, necessarily a mix of objective and subjective elements.  The only thing we know right now is that this 'system' will be improved, either by Will of by somebody who takes the idea for creating a similar, more objective system, and evolves it.

I understand where you think I'm being soft. I suppose the difference in our points of view is how valid we want the study to be.  Of course I want it to be as valid as you do, and I realize that it is in the best interest of all for us for you and I to be critical.  But at the same time, I don't expect somebody trying to do this for the fist time to be perfect, nor do I expect someone who writes for BP to disclose everything we'd like them to disclose, as the nature of BP's business is increasingly proprietary in nature.

That being said, from my point of view, there are too many subjective elements in his comments that he muddles with objective elements.  As a result, I can't interpret his grading scale as valid in many cases.  So, to be blunt, I don't - but I still give him points for trying.

Either way, I appreciate the dialog with you.

by Thommy on Feb 14, 2008 12:37 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: In defense
you get credit for being first

Maybe he's the first guy to do a health predictor algorithm for baseball players- maybe.  But he's far from the first guy to do health predictions.  There is a well-established, excepted methodology that's recognized by all health professionals for this.  So it's not like he invented health prediction - far from it.  All I'm saying is he falls far short of meeting any excepted criteria for this study.

But we all wish he could tell us when Borowski's gonna break down, for instance.  But as evidenced by last year's performance, even the doc's with the MRI's, arthrograms and a host of other objective data couldn't figure that out.  So how is some guy with "inside information" gonna do better than those highly trained professionals?  

Like I said before it's highly unlikely that trained professionals would take Mr. Carroll's work seriously.  For baseball fan's it's fodder for pre-Spring conversation.  But that's about it.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Feb 14, 2008 7:23 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: In defense
Sure, there are many other health predictions (e.g. CVD), but comparing their status or methodology to predicting the risk of athletic injury is comic.  It is mind numbingly more difficult to do for more reasons than I have time to type right now.

Do you know that there is no data (as of a few years ago, anyway), that more flexible athletes are less injury prone than less flexible athletes?  In other words, the established maxim of stretching to reduce the risk of injury has no scientific evidence to support it.  Using that as one example, expecting somebody to come up with an objective, predictive model for athletic injury, specifically in the non-pitcher class, is not within the realm of reason at the moment.  I'll take any start I can get.

by Thommy on Feb 14, 2008 9:54 AM EST to parent up   0 recs