Spring Training Roundup
While 24-year Andy Marte has garnered quite a bit of attention from both management and the fans, another youngster is quietly preparing for his first full season in the majors:
He has never had this kind of chance before. Trot Nixon is gone and the Indians didn't bring in another veteran outfielder to cloud the picture. Right field is waiting for him.
At this time last year, we were saying many of the same things last year about Gutierrez that we are about Marte this spring. Gutierrez was once a highly-rated prospect dealt to the Indians. He initially struggled to make the transition from the high minors to the majors. Well, his defense was never an issue, but you can see the parallels.
That doesn't mean that Franklin is a finished product, though. He hit just .232/.292/.429 against right-handed pitching last season, and his strikeout-to-walk ratio (77 to 21) is too high for my tastes. But even with those drawbacks, his defensive ability makes him already a decent right fielder.
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If you're an Indians' beat writer looking for a story, just walk on over to Travis Hafner, or in this case, his wife Amy:
"I don't own a calculator, because I just ask Travis to do it for me."
It gets better.
"Honest to God, he almost fainted. He got out of the chair and ... you know how they put paper on the chair? The paper was like wet toilet paper."
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Re: Spring Training Roundup
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by JulioBernazard on Mar 16, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
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by Joe on Mar 16, 2008 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
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by ken from alexandria on Mar 16, 2008 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions
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I do know there are pictures of their wedding on some friends public picture page on-line. Which I find very funny. I don't think you would see Jeter's family pics up on some cousin's web page.
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by jakesinger777 on Mar 16, 2008 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
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I'm just shocked that that line is somehow considered a noteworthy quote.
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by jakesinger777 on Mar 16, 2008 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
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On another note, I think the Hafner giggling at attacking Dellucci did worse for my perspective of Pronk. He likely doesn't do that, but that image will be the image I have burned into my head when he comes up to bat.
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Or his success could be that he doesn't care about the pressure any more and it has worked. This can be dangerous, because when he struggles he might tense up.
He just hasn't convinced he that he is what was advertised.
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for his extra base hits, it's usually the only hits he has in a game.
Well, you're basically criticizing him for having a high isolated power (total bases per hit). I mean, I kind of get where you're coming from, I think you're worried about him making solid, consistent contact. But you acknowledged that he's more patient, and when you're launching doubles and home runs, that is kind of solid contact. So what else is there to worry about really? You want him to choke up on the bat more, practice shooting it through the 5.5 hole like Tony Gwynn, bunt?
There are hardly any true genuine bat control guys left, and Marte sure isn't going to be one of them no matter what he does. He's a take-and-rake guy, and you have to admit, he's taking and he's raking. I personally am pro-grand-slam as a rule, but what do I know.
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Yo Joey, Daisuke has this pitch called the gyroball which literally defies physics. How you gonna explain that one, huh?
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by ken from alexandria on Mar 17, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
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This is neither here nor there. I think most people would agree that Marte hasn't lived up to his billing, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't start. The only pertinent question the brass need to decide is whether or not his starting makes us a better team than our other options.
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by supermarioelia on Mar 17, 2008 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
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I'm not pleased about it, but it shouldn't be exaggerated into something it's not.
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Higher ID = relative newby
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But trust me - I'm an Indians fan all the way. Boof is comparatively waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down here on the ladder of "how much I care".
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Jhonny was left in not just because there was no race, but because we had no other good options anyway.
Barfield was yanked not just because of the race, but because a viable option presented itself in Cabrera.
Gutierrez will not be demoted because he's out of options. But he will lose playing time if he struggles, and unlike Marte or Barfield, he's very useful as a backup, since he plays a fine CF and has speed. In fact, if Gutierrez struggles, he may well lose time to Marte, with Blake starting in RF more often.
There's no getting around the fact that there's no room on the roster for Francisco, and once Choo comes back, we'll have to let someone go if nobody is injured, and even after letting someone go, we still won't have room for Francisco. Francisco is waiting on injuries, trades and DFAs, plain and simple. No mere benching or demotion can put him on the 25-man roster.
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BTW, Barton is hitting .349 for the Cards in SP, and his .674 slugging is second on the team, behind some guy named Pujols.
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Francisco has never, ever been considered an elite prospect or even an A-rated prospect, despite meaningless accolades like "most exciting." We will use only his second option this season, meaning won't be forced into a BP-type decision with him until March 2010 at the earliest.
As for Barton, the Indians could call up the Cardinals and offer any other outfielder on our 40-man roster for him, and they'd probably accept. Yes, including Michaels and Dellucci and possibly even Choo. All he's done is play well in Double-A at ages 24-25 -- not extremely well, either, just well.
Like Willy Taveras, Barton may turn out to be a passable National League outfielder. It would have been nice to keep him, but it's hard to imagine something we need less than a speedy outfielder who hasn't mastered Triple-A yet. This couldn't be more different than the situation with BP, where we actually had a lack of depth at his position on top of everything else.
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discussion is not a hill I want to die on. However, the comparison to Taveras begs a little more analysis.
Both Barton (6'3", 187lbs) and Francisco (6',180 lbs) are much stronger than Taveras (6',160lbs)and hit HRs in the minors at a clip of about 17 per full season vs less than 3 for Taveras.
Taveras is probably much faster than the other two, but I'd take either of them in a foot race over Dellucci/Michaels by a wide margin.
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Taveras didn't stay in the minors past age 22, and power blooms much later than that. Still, ages 21 and 22, Taveras had 4 HR and Francisco 26, in about the same number of games and at the same levels, so the difference is clear enough. (Just to make sure we're comparing apples to apples, I'm going to adjust everything in the minors to per-150-games.)
But Francisco's clip of 18 HR/150 games is not exactly impressive, and he hit a fair amount of doubles but not a ton, and they didn't turn into HR. Bottom line, age 25 in Triple-A, he came close to 500 slugging but didn't quite get there, and we are talking about a corner OF.
Taveras earns his spot -- barely -- by virtue of his speed on the bases and range in the field, and he is an elite player in these areas. Francisco is not even considered an adequate CF, let alone a CF with elite range. We might be dismissive of Taveras' value if it was only stealing bases -- in fact I am somewhat dismissive of it -- but he does translate it into plus CF defense, which is valuable in and of itself.
As for Barton, at those same levels (A+ and AA), he hit only 30 HR in 294 games, or 15 HR/150. But unlike the other two, he didn't do it at ages 21-22, he did it at ages 23-25 -- "once he got his man muscles," to use Torii Hunter's memorable phrase. I won't try to argue that Taveras could have matched those numbers at the same age, but it's possible. More to the point, Francisco hit considerably better -- 19 HR/150 -- at ages 24-25, and he did it in Triple-A. And Barton is a little bit too old for us to start guessing that his doubles will become homers, especially as he jumps from Double-A to the majors (or at least the NL Central).
As for speed, Barton stole 80 bases over three full seasons in the minors, 34 SB/150 and he was at the peak ages for speed, 23-25. Taveras stole 166 bases in his last three minor league seasons, 83 SB/150, and did it at less ideal ages for pure speed, 20-22. So we're talking about two totally different degrees of speed here, such that whatever edge Barton may have in power -- less than you think -- Taveras surely has that much of an edge in speed.
My point being, Barton very much should be grouped with Taveras in terms of overall value, and Francisco is definitely a notch higher. That said, the fact that we can even compare Francisco to the other two tells you something.
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Gutierrez had terrific seasons at age 20 and 21, through Double-A, but was pretty clearly another Alex Escobar waiting to happen -- awesome range and arm in the field, huge power stroke and way too many strikeouts. So they basically have spent three whole seasons trying to change him into a totally different kind of hitter -- frankly, more like Ben Francisco -- because as nice as the big bombs are, Escobar is barely a major leaguer at all after five years of trying.
This makes Gutierrez a really intriguing guy, for two reasons. One, have you ever heard of this kind of transformation actually working? Do you know how many toolsy prospects in history have busted in the exact same way as Escobar did and Gutierrez would have? It seems like it would be an amazing achievement for both the player and the system if they have pulled it off.
And the second reason is, there's the fringe chance that he can master the new hitting approach and then eventually find his old power-swat and combine them together, as he hits his late-20's, and at that point, maybe you have a monster hitter on your hands. For now, though, I'll settle for a .350 OBP, plus the D.
I see Barton as a more typical hitter with a balance of contact skills, speed and just a bit of pop.
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Also, those numbers seem like more than just a bit of pop. They could be closer to 25 HR per season over 162 games later in their careers when the "man muscles" show up (or Julio Franco can show them how he did it in just one winter).
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it should read: agea gea geage ge ag e
which is latin for: nanny nanny boo boo, our prospects are younger than you
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Who has a better chance of becoming a baseball star? I don't know, but I wouldn't rule Barton out.
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At ages 23-25, Barton posted a career minor league isolated power of .159. That is the definition of a little bit of pop, it's not that impressive.
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I am not missing the point, but I believe you are missing mine. We have two players who are about the same age, so we are comparing their power numbers at roughly the same ages.
The BIG difference, as Jay clearly points out, is that Gutz has been producing his numbers at a higher level of competition, which makes him more of a proven player. That doesn't mean that Barton won't prove himself at the AAA or major league level; he just hasn't had the chance yet.
My only real point is that I hope we don't regret losing Barton someday. When Dellucci can't reach a fly ball, I'll be saying "Barton would have got that one" :-)
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Barton has always been rather old for his level, owing to his late start at 22.9 and the Indians' outfield depth in the high minors. These things are not his fault per se, but the fact remains that he was playing against much weaker pitching than other notable prospects.
To further dissect, Barton had mid-season promotions each year, meaning that he started each year kind of extra-old for his level and ended each year merely kinda-old.
In his extra-old stints, he had 16.8 HR/150.
In his kinda-old stints, he had 11.5 HR/150.
It's almost impossible to compare this directly with Gootz, whose career has been so different. The best you can do is to look only at A+ and AA rates, since they each played a chunk of games at those levels.
Gootz - 40 HR, 297 games = 20.2 HR/150, age 20-22
Barton - 30 HR, 294 games = 15.3 HR/150, age 23-25
The difference in strength between a player at age 20-22 and age 23-25 can't really be overstated; understanding that difference is fundamental to evaluating young prospects. That said, Gutierrez was a different style of hitter then and had to re-tool his whole approach. Barton still is that same hitter, for whatever that's worth.
Also worth noting, Gootz hit 92 doubles and triples in those games, Barton only 65, even though Barton has at least a little speed edge, and that's in the same ballpark as their relative HR production.
When Dellucci can't reach a fly ball, I'll be saying "Barton would have got that one" :-)
Here's my only problem with that. When Dellucci can't reach that fly ball, we'll probably have two other players on our bench at that moment, and probably another two in Buffalo, who would have gotten to that flyball just as Barton would have. So it's never really going to be about losing Barton, it's really just going to be about choosing who should be in the lineup that day.
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Since we don't have a power-hitting star in LF now, I fondly look back at the second 1/2 of 2007 when we had 3 center fielders in the OF and the defensive ground they covered (not to mention the base running benefit). Thus, I am partial to guys like Barton, Choo, and Francisco rather than our Dellucci/Michaels platoon.
There, I've now offically died on this hill!
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I didn't mean to imply that Gootz is two (or even three) years younger than Barton, sorry if that wasn't clear. He is of course ten months younger as you say, but also more accomplished.
What I did mean to say is that Gootz was nearly three years younger than Barton was duringn their 290-game tenures in A+ and AA. Barton hit A+ right after his 23rd birthday and played his last games for Akron three months after turning 25. Gootz hit A+ six weeks after his 20th birthday and played his last games for Akron four months after turning 22.
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let's remember that Escobar missed just about all of 1999 with a back injury and all of 2002 with his knee. I don't want to be that guy that claims Escobar would have been great, but bad backs and knees in your early 20s are a serious detriment on the career.
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The following year, he looked great out in RF in the majors and was racking up outfield assists at a furious pace -- he finished with 9 in only 46 games, while the AL leader finished with 13 in a full season.
Neither leading the IL in home runs (at age 24) nor the AL in outfield assists (at age 25) directly disproves a lingering knee injury, but you certainly need to put a lot of weight on that knee to hit with any power, or to get to a flyball in the field quickly enough to gun down a runner.
So I would submit to you that though delayed, Escobar did get healthy, and simply could not make enough contact to be a major league regular.
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by supermarioelia on Mar 19, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
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He'll be 30 this season. Safe to say he missed his shot at stardom, but I'd like to have him back in Buffalo if he's available and healthy.
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Normalized: 818 OPS. Really.
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I really can't give you any canned questions, but I'd love to be there to here how these guys think. Unfortunately I'm in Maui right now and not due back to the Princeton until the first of next week - maybe I'll make the next one.
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Doesn't look like they're dropping by Maui. Here's she schedule. I'd ask them something about Pronk, but I think that subject's pretty well covered here. I'm thinking of a Ben Francisco or bullpen question, or maybe something about defense up the middle.
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I have a little corned beef stuck in my teeth. I don't actually have a lisp.
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by JulioBernazard on Mar 19, 2008 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
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Now maybe he's only talking about Gutierrez's shot as the full-time RF starter (which he addresses later in the article), but I thought he was OK with the LF situation. A couple of weeks ago he said:
I know the latter quote is the sort of generic sping "rah-rah" you expect. He's never come out and been so critical about the platoon before, though, has he?
I suppose I'm reading too much into all this, but it is still March and I'm ready for the season to start.
by mkwng @ Let's Go Tribe! on Mar 17, 2008 11:26 AM EDT reply actions
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Probably the reason he doesn't like platooning is it just means he has two egos to worry about at a given position instead of one, and can't just fill out the lineup card the same way every day.
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The money quote for those who are too lazy to click the link:
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by ken from alexandria on Mar 20, 2008 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions

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