The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I've been having some conversations with a buddy in LA about Andruw Jones being fat. So I decided to take a look at the fattest listed weights in the game - I pulled my info from ESPN.com rosters as of 3/14, and it is not the full 40-man, but is above 25, so most teams have around 35 people listed (1,006 total players). I recognize that listed weights aren't that accurate, and that this is more trivial than informative, but I found it interesting anyways:
(1) CC is tied for fattest listed weight in the league, along with Jonathan Broxton, at 290. Wow. The saving grace for Charleston Chew is that he has 3 inches on Broxton.
(2) The White Sox are the fattest team in the majors (avg wt = 221), followed by the Yankees (219). This couldn't have turned out any better, IMHO.
(3) The general numbers between AL and NL by position are pretty similar, except that at CF, AL is 10 lbs heavier than NL (202 v. 192). The next largest variance of any position is RF 7 lbs (214 v. 207), and then 5 lbs LF(204 v. 209), with NL being heavier. Given that there are 8 people named as DH in the AL (avg wt = 235), it surprises me that AL outfielders are also much heavier.
(4) All three AL divisions are heavier, with avg wt of W (210) / C (210) / E (208) on average, than NL divisions, C (208), W (205), E (204). AL (avg wt = 209) is heavier than NL (206).
Position breakdowns (min 100 ABs in 2007):
(AL / NL )
Catcher
Skinny: I Rodriguez, DET (190) / J Flores, WAS (180)
Fat: T Hall, CHW (255) / R Paulino, PIT (245)
Tribe Note: Victor's 210 is below Catcher AL avg of 214
1B
Skinny: R Gload, KC (190) / R Aurilia, SF (190)
Fat: R Sexson, SEA (240) / P Fielder, MIL (270)
Tribe Note: Garko 225 is right on 1B AL avg of 223
2B
Skinny: AstroCab, CLE (170) / M Fontenot, CHC (160)
Fat: M Cairo, SEA (208) / R Weeks, MIL (213)
Tribe Note: Asdrubal tied with new teammate Carroll for lightest AL at 170, soaking wet
3B
Skinny: M Izturis, LAA (170) / C Counsell, MIL (179)
Fat: S Rolen, TOR tied Miggy Cabrera, DET (240) / T Glaus, STL (240)
Tribe Note: Blake's 210 is close to 3B AL avg of 207
SS
Skinny: J Lugo, BOS (175) / J Rollins, PHI (168)
Fat: J Uribe, CHW (225) / M Tejada, HOU (213)
Tribe Note: Jhonny's chubby face and lack of range belie his weight of 210, tying him for third fattest SS in MLB
LF
Skinny: R Johnson, TOR (180) / E Chavez, NYM (165)
Fat: R Ibanez, SEA (225) / A Dunn, CIN (275) WOW!
Tribe Note: Delucci edges out Michaels for skinny honors, 205 to 206 - right on LF AL avg of 204
CF
Skinny: Ichiro, SEA (172) / W Taveras, COL (160)
Fat: M Byrd, TEX (245) / E Dukes, WAS (220)
Tribe Note: Grady is at 200 even, a little less than the AL CF avg of 202
Side Note: Turns out Andruw Jones LISTED weight is 210, which is far from Marlon Byrd territory. I think actuals would give a lot closer competition.
RF
Skinny: Gootz, CLE (190) / S Victorino, PHI (180)
Fat: J Dye, CHW (245) / A Kearns, WAS (245)
Tribe Note: Franklin checks in almost 25 lbs lighter than AL avg of 224, as he truly represents a CF playing the corner
DH - only 8 listed as full-time DH
Skinny: J Vidro, SEA (200)
Fat: F Thomas, TOR (275)
Tribe Note: Pronk holds his own with the big boys, checking in at 240 against the DH avg of 235
P - did not separate relief v. starter
Skinny: F Cabrera, BAL (170) / W Rodriguez, HOU (160)
Fat: C.C., CLE (290) / J Broxton, LAD (290)
Tribe Note: I'll stick to starters - Fausto (230), Westbrook (215), Byrd (190 with HGH, 189 without), Lee-Laffey-Sowers (190-180-180) are mostly far from the AL average of 211. And JoBo, despite looking and pitching like Wickie, is listed at 215 somehow. Like his ERA, his belly must be inflated from a few bad trips to the all-you-can-eat buffet
So general reaction is that Tribe is right around league average, maybe even a little light, with the obvious exception. No clue how that projects to performance, but I'm going to say it is positive (less injury risk?)
--> Full data set of 1,000+ players can be viewed at google docs
0 recs |
191 comments
Comments
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I see what you did there...
by MikeCP on Mar 18, 2008 10:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/22/AR2008022202922.html
by supermarioelia on Mar 18, 2008 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I was in London a few years back and picked up the Times and there was one of those typical cheeky British articles about the Indians and Jacobs field. Most of the article centered on the high calorie food being served at the park and how obese many of the fans looked - all true enough. But then the punk "reporter" went on to comment that even the players were fat and sited the 240 pound/14 stone Jim Thome as an example of a "fat" player. We all know that this is just sloppy. No one would describe the 230 pound Albert Pujolz as "fat" whereas "fat" certainly describes Ronnie Belliard at 197 pounds. Jeez I just noticed, are you saying that Fausto at 230 is "fat"?
Anyway, I'm sure you knew this before I pointed it out. Let's just call your whole premise specious and let it go at that.
by mauichuck on Mar 18, 2008 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Brick. on Mar 18, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by CU Adam on Mar 19, 2008 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I agree that the breakdown needs to give at least some concession to height (ie BMI), but I appreciate that that isn't particulary scientific, but would at least give it another angle.
Still, nice write up steincat and definitely interesting
by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on Mar 19, 2008 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I was more searching for "above average weight" or "below average weight" and trying to see if anyone stood out as way off. I really didn't find that, other than Adam Dunn being awfully big for an outfielder.
If today is a slow day again, maybe I can rework it.
by steincat on Mar 19, 2008 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Prince Fielder blows everyone out of the water with BMI of 37.65. Top 5:
(1) P Fielder, MIL (37.65)
(2) J Broxton, LAD (35.30)
(3) B Jenks, CHW (34.37)
(4) C Delgado, NYM (32.99)
(5) Y Brazoban, LAD (32.98)
On the other side, there are a surprising number of people at the bottom of the list who are either relief pitchers or bench players - which just goes to show that if you don't juice, then you're gonna be an also-ran.
by steincat on Mar 19, 2008 12:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
But you do bring up a good issue. I wish there was a site that had the true weights and heights of pro athletes (and even entertainers...that could be Tom Cruise or Will Smith or Adam Sandler). What is up that pro sports can't be candid about this stuff?
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
BTW, do you really find Cruise and Sandler "entertaining"?
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mrich on Mar 19, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
We can certainly survey imperfect data and find it interesting. Nobody is drawing specific conclusions or claiming scientific validity.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
By the time I played around with it, I realized that it was informational, but not informative (if that makes sense).
I don't think I tried to draw any conclusions, and maybe it was a waste of space because of that. I guess I just thought it was interesting to see the outliers at some level.
On a side note, I am glad that it somehow sparked a movie review discussion that was entertaining.
by steincat on Mar 20, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Guilty, I do like Cruise and Sandler, in the right movies.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Re: Sadler and Cruise - it's the "right movie" that's the tough part. I liked the job Kevin Costner did in "The Big Chill". Cruise or Sadler wouldda been perfect for that role too. Other than that, I can't imagine what else they'd be good in.
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Movies in which Tom Cruise did a pretty fine job: Risky Business, Rain Man, The Firm, Interview With The Vampire, Jerry Maguire, Magnolia, Minority Report, Collateral, War of the Worlds.
Sandler's list: The Wedding Singer, The Waterboy, Big Daddy, Punch-Drunk Love, The Hot Chick, Spanglish, and we can assume "Untitled Judd Apatow/Adam Sandler Project" is going to be pretty good, too.
Like many actors who've had wild box office success, they've figured out what kinds of movies work for them (according to audiences) and mostly made those movies.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I actually can't rememeber what the heck it was about. Isn't it supposed to be pretty good?
by jhon on Mar 19, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by jhon on Mar 19, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
- Panned by the critics
- box office flop
- notable only for ...
It clearly isn't a good movie, but there's a lot of good stuff in it, even aside from the nudity. Provocative and interesting stuff.
In all these respects (except the nudity), not unlike A.I., Kubrick's would-be last movie that got made by Spielberg.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
- The character development was nonexistent. I actually hated Nicole Kidman more as the movie went on. She was neither a compelling lead nor someone I found worthy of empathy.
- The script and dialogue weren't up to Kubrick's other works. The level of conversation that you find in Kubrick's other work isn't there, but some of that may be due to the fact that he died before the final edit was in the can.
- The overall tone of the movie was... opaque? I don't know if that is the right word to describe it. I never felt pulled in. I felt like I was watching a puppet show through my neighbor's closed window. The atempt was ceratinly made to be immersive, and Kubrick pulls it off in other movies, esp (to me) 2001, but he totalled missed here.
by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I thought his 90-minute freakout in War of the Worlds was classic Cruise, but he never made me want to root for him one iota. Dakota, sure, but she's a little girl.
Collateral I'll give you, he oozes slimy-psycho, probably from all of the brain probing.
And I may be in the minority here, but I hate hate hate Magnolia. His part in it was a lot of the reason, but I think it was poorly conceived and poorly executed.
As for Sandler, for every Waterboy, there are a small horde of Click, Bulletproof and Airheads. I think his hit rate for picking good parts, and playing them well, is about 25%. I guess that's above the Mendoza line, though. I do have high hopes for the Jewish commando movie coming out. I think he's trying to rediscover his roots in funny faces and goofy voices.
by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I like Magnolia but don't love it. I don't pass judgement on those who hate it, the filmmaker is obviously not working very hard to make it liked, and yes, I do mean that as a criticism.
I never said Sandler had a high batting average, but doesn't .333 get you into the Hall of Fame eventually? Nobody bats 1000 except John Cazale, and he only pulled it off by dying.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Risky Business - just for Rebecca DeMorney - is worth seeing. Cruise is OK in it, I guess. Rain Man was just another buddy movie with the autism twist and besides, that was Dustin Hoffman chewing the scenery for three hours - boring. I'll give you Jerry McGuire, but do you really believe that Cruise was a better choice than Michael Keaton? As to Top Gun and War of the Worlds, I hate any flick that relies on CGI to drive the story.
I guess I'm just tired of pop "culture" in general - Tom Clancy, Speilberg, Tolkien, the PD Sport Section, Fox News, Yani, Harry Potter, Time, SI, ESPN, Kenny G, ............
I guess the last good movie I saw - one that kept my attention any way for the entire movie was The Queen with Helen Mirren.
As to audiences size as a measure of artistic worth. All I gotta say is that Lawence Welk sold a lot more albums than Billie Holiday.
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
As to Top Gun and War of the Worlds, I hate any flick that relies on CGI to drive the story
Exactly how much CGI was done in Top Gun when it was filmed in 1984???
And Tolkien is NOT pop culture. Until Peter Jackson made his masterpieces (and yes with excellent CGI), anybody who was a Tolkien fan was considered a nerd, not part of pop culture.
Funny you should name Spielberg (who is a modern master) and not Lucas? Lucas was the mastermind behind a lot of Spielberg driven movies as well. Oh, and another tidbit for you, if Lucas hadn't made Star Wars IV, he was originally scheduled to film Apocolypse Now instead of Coppola.
by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Speilberg's all over the map now - shlock then something "artistic" but always heavy handed. About as subtle as a punch in the face. It's just boring and insulting.
I can't imagine how bad a Lucas "Apocolypse Now" wouldda been. But as it was I thought "The Deer Hunter" handled the subject matter much better.
Here's the bottom line, Hollywood in the '90s and 00s is like Detroit in the '70s and '80s. The visionaries that built their industry have been replaced by bean-counters who think they've found a "formula" for success. What they've really found is a formula for disasster. In 20 years Hollywood's gonna look like Detroit does now - and no Jay, I don't have a CI for this. They'll probably be makin' most of the box office stuff in New Dehli or Hong Kong.
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The 1977 Star Wars is Episode IV, not I (it was the first made and released).
Secondly, yes this was a "seminal" film for special effects, NOT CGI. CGI was not really a huge factor until the Jurassic Park timeframe. Of course Skywalker Ranch did play a role in developing CGI.
What little CGI there was in Top Gun was probably the flight simulator sequences the cadets watched while mocking each other. There may have been plenty of special effects, but I highly doubt there was much CGI at all to those "shots"
by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
And forgive me if I can't keep track of all the Star Wars episodes and the chronologic order. To me it's all a steaming pile of Sith.
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
There is no way Lord of the Rings would have looked as fanstastic as it did without the CGI. Without it, we would have been stuck with hokey H R Puffenstuff looking scenes.
I believe the good directors will use CGI as necessary (to flesh out the story) rather than tell the story.
SO, to get back to the main point, your initital comment way back of the thread should have read SFX, not CGI, since that is what were truly complaining about.
by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Chuck, you might be surprised to hear then that most Star Wars fans would agree with you. That is, many of us who love Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back think that Lucas's interests started to turn towards purely gratuitous FX and idiotic "jokes" with Return of the Jedi (although it is still pretty decent). But the prequel trilogy is indeed almost entirely unwatchable, save the last one, which is merely bad.
I am clearly pretty nerdy have a lot of very nerdy friends (I think it's safe to say I'm in good company here). We all love movies, sci-fi included. And I've never heard anybody say they were going to see a movie just because of the special effects.
Do yourself a favor and rent the movie "Serenity". There's a darn good story in there, with great characters and great writing and hey what do you know -- it just so happens to have some spaceships in it.
by mrich on Mar 19, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Certainly Lucas has directed no good movies since Star Wars and produced very little that's any good since Empire -- and no, I don't give him much credit for the Indiana Jones films. Give me Harrison Ford and Spielberg at the peak of their powers, and I bet I could "produce" two really good movies in three tries, too, possibly without ever showing up.
The anti-CGI crowd, by the way, is suspiciously just like the anti-stathead crowd, embarassingly prone to condemning movies they've never seen over faults they often don't have. "Maybe you should get your head out of the CGI and go to an actual screenplay once in a while!" And just to bring the discussion full circle, if story and characters didn't matter in big-budget effects films, then why was Lord of the Rings so much more successful as a trilogy than The Matrix anyway?
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
To quote my favorite Baltimorean, H. L. Mencken: (because) "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Equal parts Western and Sci-fi. Not very fancy on the Fx side, but Joss Whedon knows how to put together a great story.
If you're inclined, the movie was just a continuation of the TV series "Firefly" which I love.
Love love. Hearts and bows.
by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I keep an archive of commercials. And I'd be happy to present them to anyone who cares. If you think long and hard about the mathematics of animation, you'd be pretty awed.
by jhon on Mar 19, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Dean, I hate to break it to you ...
Funny you should name Spielberg (who is a modern master) and not Lucas? Lucas was the mastermind behind a lot of Spielberg driven movies as well.
See below for the dumping on Lucas. Lucas is a hack. Spielberg is the most successful and significant filmmaker ever. Consider, one of the hardest things for any director to do is to make two really good movies in a row. Here are some of Spielberg's best consecutive pairs of movies (and one trio):
- Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind (75-77)
- Raiders of the Lost Ark, E,T. (81-82)
- The Color Purple, Empire of the Sun, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (85-89)
- Jurassic Park, Schindler's List (93)
- Amistad, Saving Private Ryan (97-98)
- Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can (02)
- War of the Worlds, Munich (05)
His resume as a pure producer dwarfs Lucas's as well. Hell, if you take away Indiana Jones, I'll take Animaniacs and Band of Brothers over Lucas' entire producing resume.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I am not denying Spielberg is a better director than Lucas. As you've shown, he has the resume to prove it.
Just because Lucas chose to not direct anymore does not make him a hack (somehow everone forgets American Graffiti). He had others direct so he could focus on other aspects of the films. I see nothing wrong with that.
When Lucas ended up with the financial windfall from Star Wars (due to his and his lawyers foresight I might add), he chose to go into a different direction. Skywalker Ranch, THX sound systems etc. He decided to pursue other aspects of fimmaking to improve. (Do you think Pixar would be where it is today without Lucas?)
Without his technological advances, moviemaking would not be what it is today (good or bad, we know chuck's opinion). Spielberg (and a slew of others) has dervied a lot of financial windfall from Lucas whether by joint producing, writing, special effects, etc.
Spielberg has also done a lot of personal films, more power to him because he can.
To just paint Lucas as a hack is completely unfair.
by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The idea that Spielberg has profited from association with Lucas, however, is beyond ridiculous. Take away his Spielberg-related projects, and Lucas' best project since 1980 is Tucker. The same obviously cannot be said for Spielberg's projects without Lucas, which would include 9 of his 10 best and/or most successful films. Truth is, neither man owes much of his respective immense fortune to the other.
Lucas' history as a Spielberg collaborator shouldn't be overstated just because he happens to also be the Star Wars guy. Spielberg has possibly a dozen other people who have been more frequent or significant collaborators in his career, but you're not going to hear people bleating about how much he owes to Janusz Kaminski, Frank Marshall and John Williams.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Sometimes you go too far, Chuck. Too far.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
But how about this: the Searchers - arguably one of the finest, most nuanced films of its time. And Stagecoach - with a plot device that's been used over and over - you could say run into the ground by now. But at the time it was seen as novel. The Informer is another great flick. And ya gotta love "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" just for Lee Marvin's over the top, cartoonish villain. Couple the light entertainment stuff with some socially significant movie like "The Grapes of Wrath" and I think that Spielberg and Ford are at least in a dead heat. Plus he made Sex Hygiene, an Army training film that's been the talk of the nation since it was first screened.
And he even topped that. In the middle of the McCarthy BS when Cecil B. DeMille was petitioning the Directors Guild of America to require every card caring member of the guild to sign a loyalty oath, Ford said the following to a meeting of all of the guild members;
"My name's John Ford. I make Westerns. I don't think there's anyone in this room who knows more about what the American public wants than Cecil B. DeMille - and he certainly knows how to give it to them. But I don't like you, C.B., and I don't like what you've been saying here tonight."
Can you're boy Spielberg match that?
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The Searchers looks great on a big screen.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
BTW, can you think of a movie made in the last twenty years that matches "The Wire" for nuance, substance and treats its audience like adults? I recognize that you can be more expansive when you've got 40-50 some hours to work with, but "The Wire" is truly remarkable. I might throw in "Rescue Me" and "The Sopranos" too, but they're not on the same plane as "The Wire".
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
1. Spy Game
It might not have the suspense inherent to it that Condor has, but it makes up for that slight failure with a very well written script and a more plausible story line, along with some awfully clever plot devices.
I'll watch them both today here at work and give some notes later.
by BostonWahoo on Mar 20, 2008 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by BostonWahoo on Mar 20, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
So it's really hard to compare, because that kind of novelistic complexity is possibly the main separator between The Wire and other great TV shows; The Sopranos was less complex, had fewer characters that were truly central, was more episodic and sometimes relied on flashbacks. But The Wire in the end was that much more real/plausible than The Sopranos and more than a few times was kind of heavy-handed -- most egregiously with the cartoon-villain newspaper editors, but there were other examples, too.
So what I'm getting at is, the novelistic complexity was the main separator, and it's just not possible in films. Some Altman films were as broad and sweeping, but they tended to be deliberately anti-coherent. The Wire, huge as it was, was also deeply coherent, which is why it was so rewarding to watch closely.
You know what was really huge and complex, with an enormous cast of well-drawn characters, extremely coherent, and masterfully told with lavish attention to detail? Lord of the Rings. Too bad you can't sit through the CGI.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Am I, like, the only person who actually enjoys and appreciates movies that aren't necessarily "my kind of movie?" Because I don't like swords and sorcery movies either, and I don't like heartwarming movies about aliens, or a half dozen other types of movies we've discussed. But I appreciate great filmmaking when I see it, and I'd rather see that then whatever "my kind of movie" is.
And by the way, my kind of movie is Hudson Hawk.
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Voltaire on Mar 21, 2008 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
And yeah, Bruce Willis flicks are a guilty pleasure of mine too.
by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by drerikbrady on Mar 21, 2008 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by talonk on Mar 21, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Plus, I think you're argument about "back to back" greats is interesting but maybe a little under-researched.
Off the top of my head with some wiki:
- Tim Burton made Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, Batman, and Edward Scissorhands all in a row.
- All 4 of Paul Thomas Anderson's major releases (Boogie Nights, Magnolia, Punch-Drunk Love, There Will Be Blood) are pretty freaking good and were all made in a row.
- The Coens made Blood Simple, Raising Arizona, and Miller's Crossing all in a row. Then, later, they made Fargo, The Big Lebowski, and O Brother Where Art Thou all in a row.
- Tarantino made Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction back to back.
- Robert Zemeckis made Back to the Future and Who Framed Roger Rabbit back to back. He made Forrest Gump and Contact back to back later. I don't even like Contact but I think some people around here have said they do before.
I like all the movies above (except for Gump and Contact) more than every Spielberg movie except for maybe Jaws, Schindler's List, and Saving Private Ryan.
I feel confident there are more examples.
Plus, isn't the whole concept a little wacky? Doesn't it matter more how good their movies are as a body, or how good their best movie is, or something like that? This two in a row standard, what does it really mean?
However, I'll allow that if you're into all those Spielberg movies, which is fine, I doubt you'll find my list very convincing. I just also doubt there's a lot of point to trying to argue why one set of films or one director's body of work is better than anothers. In some cases, it's obvious (like Lucas and his terrible filmography-other contributions notwithstanding) but in many, it's just taste.
by afh4 on Mar 19, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'll readily concede that those who save their affections for only art-house fare -- or, judging from your list, for only the most accessible art-house fare -- will not have much affection for Spielberg. Same folks turning their nose up at Dickens and who would never have gone to a dance hall to see Ellington. These folks don't just love the film Barton Fink, they are Barton Fink. Tell me again about how much you love films about the common man!
Here's the thing, Andrew -- unless you think that your taste is the only thing that matters, there isn't much of a point to make here. I've watched Magnolia a few times, once recently in fact, but anyone who doesn't realize that Spielberg has made 10 and possibly 20 films that are more accomplished and -- in just about every way -- more successful than Magnolia is just being a tastemonger, not casting a critical eye.
There's a difference between liking movies like Magnolia -- which I do -- and thinking it's a great film -- which it simply isn't. Those who prefer it to Spielberg's over-reaches like A.I. are talking about only about taste, not about filmmaking skill or success or significance. You like P.T. Anderson movies, so you simply list all of them as masterpieces. That isn't skill or accomplishment or success or significance -- it's only taste, and a very specific demographic taste.
I also love that you put Zemeckis on the list. He's had a great career, too, obviously, but it's practically a spin-off of Spielberg's career. It's like saying Trapper John M.D. might be just as significant as MASH.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
but anyone who doesn't realize that Spielberg has made 10 and possibly 20 films that are more accomplished and -- in just about every way -- more successful than Magnolia is just being a tastemonger, not casting a critical eye.
I think it's belittling and pretty close to totally unfair. I suspect more than a few people agree. The bizarre part is, your not even belittling my taste. I just made a quick list because I knew this "back to back" standard wouldn't hold up, and it didn't. And then you talked down to me about two of the directors listed, ignored the others, and referenced a movie that I didn't even list.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Every director you listed, Spielberg had them beat 25 years ago, and he's done plenty since. Those first four I listed (Jaws, Close Encounters, Raiders, E.T.) all made the AFI 100; they're all among the top-grossing films of all time -- and you want to compare these with cult classics like Beetlejuice and Reservoir Dogs? What, did you forget to include Existenz?
Please understand, I'm not knocking or disqualifying movies for being art-house flicks or for merely being cult classics rather than gigantic hits -- but let's be serious, with few exceptions, you're not exactly throwing movies of the caliber of Mean Streets at me here.
I realize that all the films you list meet some "dude, that movie is awesome" test, but only a handful of them meet the threshold I'm talking about. You could knock a few of the 15 films I listed for Spielberg, but solidly a dozen of them were monumental critical and box office successes and influential or groundbreaking films. It's a whole different standard and scale than Tarantino's career, and no doubt Tarantino would be the first to tell you that.
No, I will not say one bad word about the Coen brothers, and it's not my fault you failed to mention Barton Fink. I will not rest until Turturro and Goodman each have at least one Oscar, damn it.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Consider, one of the hardest things for any director to do is to make two really good movies in a row. /
All I'm saying is I'm not sure that's really true of great directors. I suspect it's pretty common, depending on how much you account for taste.
The second part of what I was saying was just that I don't think Spielberg overwhelms the competition the way you portray it.
I wasn't saying that any of these directors individually match Spielberg in terms of immenseness, when you're talking about box office receipts, screenings, cultural significance etc. But I think the balance swings regularly towards all the directors I listed when you talk about whether the movies are /actually
I'm not really sure how we're defining cult classic here, either. Beetlejuice is on television constantly. I've never seen Empire of the Sun on television. Beetlejuice made 73 million dollars in it's initial release, making it the tenth biggest movie of the year. As I'm sure you know, Empire of the Sun wasn't really supposed to make money and it didn't.
I guess my general problem here is that you're painting things with a very broad brush (also my problem with Spielberg movies!). It's easy to not think about it and say "tons of Spielberg movies were smashes in every sense of the word" but I'm not prepared to sign off on that. I don't really feel like going through all of them but I postulate there's more nuance than either of us are really noticing-many movies that are remembered as being "critical successes" really weren't, many movies that seem small in their box office scope really weren't, etc. But neither of us is looking it up for all of them, and that's both of our faults. The above Beetlejuice example is just one-c'mon, that's not a cult classic.
I see your point about the breaking of new ground but, to me, that's a lot like Lucas and the Jedi Ranch or whatever. It's important but it's not the same as good filmmaking, especially in retrospect. Movies that are monumentally important aren't always super watchable the second time around. Like Birth of a Nation. That's a joke.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I think frankly that you're hating him for being overwhelming popular, and your tastemonger instincts are blinding you to his mastery of the craft. Watch even his most recent stuff, it's not edgy, but it is impeccable. The indie film guys also have immense gaping flaws in their game, as Spielberg does, but you basically give them a free pass because they're not Spielberg, and they are making films aimed directly at smart, well-educated, culturally astute dudes in their 20's and 30's.
People forget or never knew, back in the day, E.T. debuted at Cannes, and audiences were in tears. It only seems quaint now, 25 years later, having sunk completely into our culture. Spielberg isn't just overwhelmingly popular, he's got obscenely good chops and was an immensely important filmmaker. For better or worse, those four early films were all great films, all critical sucesses, all box office blockbusters, and they changed the industry forever.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Saving Private Ryan
JP
Schindler's List
Hook
Probably one of the Indiana Jones movies, but I'm not sure which.
E.T.
Jaws
I like some of his other movies but I think they're pretty forgettable for one reason or another.
I got a little twisted up, and I was never trying to say that the particular group of directors I listed, individually, could go head to head with Spielberg. The only one of that list that I believe that of is the Coens. I think PTA might get there but who knows.
So, here's all I was trying to say:
1-Lots of directors make great movies back to back.
and the other thing that I've been sniffing around but for whatever reason didn't verbalize properly:
2-Spielberg is not even close to my choice for being the American filmmaker of the last 25-35 years. And no, my choices aren't Wes Anderson, Tarantino or PTA, despite my poorly chosen examples.
For me, Spielberg is behind the Coens and Scorsese, and he's way behind both of them.
I'm not trying to hate on the guy at all. I just thought this back to back thing was an interesting standard so I examined it. And then I said a couple of things from the hip about Spielberg and got sucked into this shame spiral of a debate.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Spielberg co-produced Band of Brothers with Tom Hanks. What that means, I don't totally know.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Where are we going for Opening Day?
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
My favorite scene from the whole miniseries was in the second episode. I really appreciate the detail in the assault on the German gun emplacement. It seemed incredibly realistic to me, and the minicam work was terrific.
by BostonWahoo on Mar 20, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I only brought it up because some folks like to give Lucas bonus points for his producing, which actually is not all that accomplished. Spielberg's role Band of Brothers probably is not that much different from Lucas' role in the Indiana Jones films, where he contributed basic story ideas and executive produced -- but didn't produce, didn't write and didn't direct.
Band of Brothers is incredible, which is the other reason I brought it up.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by fwembt on Mar 21, 2008 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I rankle when people attempt to lump everyone under a certain age into one, underachieving, panty-waisted mass. There are still heroes out there, there is just not the same call for them as there was then.
by fwembt on Mar 21, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 21, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
ate
whe
n E
.E.
Cum
min
gs
tak
es
ove
r m
y L
GT
thr
ead
.
by APV on Mar 21, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
(a
grad
stud
ent's
12-
inch
iBook)
ments.
by fleerdon on Mar 23, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Although, Girl 6 is in the running for worst film ever involving real actors and a real director.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Man, I have seen every Spike Lee movie -- the best one is Clockers by the way -- more than once, but it's just blantant self-parody to call him a more significant filmmaker than Spielberg. You really might as well say Wes Anderson.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
She's Gotta Have It, Do The Right Thing, When The Levees Break, 4 Little Girls, and School Daze are all absolutely perfect films. I think Spike Lee's got to get credit for the number of grand slams he's hit in terms of changing how movies look, sound, etc. I guess he's not unlike Spielberg in that way. Do The Right Thing is best example but he invented, or at least popularized, a lot of the devices that terrible filmmakers rip off constantly.
Rosie Perez dancing is the best opening credits, ever.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'm kind of fond of Get On The Bus, and I didn't mind Girl 6 that much. She's Gotta Have It is far from a perfect film, but Mo' Better Blues is pretty close. 'course, I might just be biased because of all the jazz musicians I've known, and a few I've even liked.
Agreed on Rosie Perez.
No love for Malcolm X? How about He Got Game, that brilliant scoring-against-type using Aaron Copland compositions? I mention this to people sometimes, that Spike Lee has a movie that uses Aaron Copland for its score almost entirely, and they literally think I'm lying, making some kind of weird joke.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I like all of the Spike Lee movies, except for Girl 6. Those ones I listed are probably my favorites, with the addition of the fact that they're (excepting docs) all early career, consecutive films, which made them spring to mind during this talk.
I think Malcolm X is a little overcooked but it's certainly an incredible biopic. I really think Spike's documentary work is ridiculous. I know it's probably not hard for great filmmakers, and most never try it, but when the levees broke absolutely gripped me. I couldn't wait for the discs to arrive.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I even thought that Inside Man was a lost opportunity. It could have been great, because the story itself was, but somehow the movie didn't live up to the story itself.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Do The Right Thing is a very interesting and extremely well done movie. Provocative? Yes, but no moreso than Jungle Fever, which ultimately has a lot more nuance, sophistication and character development, and is executed every bit as well.
I would agree that there's a vast segment of the population that has no interest in seeing any more "Spike Lee Joints," which is why he hasn't been able to do anything except low-budget stuff, documentaries, and hired-gun gigs (Clockers, Inside Man) for about ten years.
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Hook over anything?
Interesting.
I'm a serious fan of almost every filmmaker you've mentioned, and like you, I like their films more than Spielberg's. But I can appreciate the man's skills and achievements, and the box office part is obvious. Scorsese, despite decades of abject worship for Mean Streets and Raging Bull, has not achieved critically as much as Spielberg, i.e., he has not made as many films that are widely regarded as masterpieces. Neither have the Coens, and PT isn't going to get there either.
And this is despite the fact that Spielberg has paid a heavy penalty critically -- even in this thread -- for being immensely popular. The Oscars are not his domain, the AFI 100 is not his house ... and yet he's been so good, so many times, he ends up with a bunch of Oscars anyway, and five films on the AFI 100 anyway. It's kind of like saying Hank Aaron wasn't much of a home run hitter; at some point, you have to recognize that he beat Babe Ruth anyway.
The critics, and perhaps you and I, would rather put five Scorsese films on that list, but be honest -- there aren't five Scorsese films to put on it, even after his relentless decade-long drive for prestige. Same goes for the Coen brothers -- I think Barton Fink is great, I think Lebowski is great -- hell, I even think The Hudsucker Proxy is great -- but they aren't masterpieces.
So despite the handicap, Spielberg still ends up on top critically ... and only then do we get to the box office part of the discussion, where his films have probably has grossed more than everyone else we've mentioned here, combined.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
In contrast, I've never seen anything like a Coen Brothers movie. I've probably never really seen anything like Close Encounters either but I'm not trained enough to be able to tell.
I don't know about this Oscars and AFI not being Spielberg's domain. Who's domain are they more than his?
You're probably right in that I'm conflating "liking a movie" with "a movie being better." But, frankly, I don't know if I'm capable of emotionally divorcing far enough to differentiate those two things. I can do it with movies that are obviously not in the same league but it's hard when I know both movies are great even if one is more of an achievement.
Finally, Hook is awesome. I can't help it. I grew up on Hook.
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Would you say that Coppola gets the nod for best back to back for Godfather I and II? Or does that not count since it is the same story essentially?
by talonk on Mar 20, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't consider the Godfather films to be one big film. They were made as individual films and, in my view, actually function better that way, particularly Part I. I'm not a huge fan of watching the whole thing in the story's chronological order.
Thing is, they weren't back to back. The Conversation was in between and also nominated for Best Picture. I suspect we'd have trouble finding a better four-film stretch than Godfather, The Converstaion, Godfather Part II, Apocalypse Now.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
For what it's worth, the Godfather book is one of my favorite "vacation reads" of all time. It's hard to put it down.
by steincat on Mar 20, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by steincat on Mar 20, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The former applies to The Godfather where the original movie was made without necessarily expecting ever to make another one. Essentially, they chose which part of the book to make into a movie, and their enormous success allowed them to make a second movie, quite different from the first in many respects. You may prefer to think of them as one movie, but they never were.
Kill Bill was not like that, it was conceived and filmed as a single movie, and only edited into two movies for a better and more profitable release after it was shot. Lord of the Rings was also filmed all at once and intended as a 10-12 hour film, cut up only for release.
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'm with you with John Hughes also. My wife never misses Ferris Bueller's Day Off whenever it's on TV. Of course it's got one home-boy in the cast, Alan Ruck, but I had high hopes for Mia Sara but it looks like she's fallen down the chasm of WE mini-movies.
If all you're ever gonna talk about is serious cinema, we'll never get to some of my favorite movies, like anything the Marx Brothers ever did. Now that would be unfortunate.
by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Side note to Chuck ... Alan Ruck is not a hack and should have gotten an Oscar nod for his ballsy and note-perfect portrayal of Cameron. He gave Cameron an unusual personality while also letting you feel like you might know him in real life. You never caught him "acting" and never once doubted the truth of his performance.
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Funny thing about Alan Ruck in Ferris is that he was 29 when he played Cameron. He gets extra points from me for being a native Clevelander who attended Parma High School. All hail Alan Ruck!
The comedy genre always gets shafted by the Academy, except if it's Woody Allen. Classics aren't just serious movies.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 21, 2008 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by NickFantana on Mar 21, 2008 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by afh4 on Mar 21, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Here's some Woody Allen for you: A real artist defines his own moral universe. If you think Woody Allen is great, you need to know he's great, and as for why, it's because he just is, and as an artist, you know it.
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by afh4 on Mar 24, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 24, 2008 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by NickFantana on Mar 24, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Best Picture comedy nominees this decade: Juno, Little Miss Sunshine, Sideways, Chicago, Chocolat. (American Beauty was more of a satire, and (spoiler alert) there wasn't really anything funny about the main character getting shot in the head.) Anyway, that isn't many, but like you said, great comedies are hard to make. Still, not a single broad, gross-out comedy in the bunch.
Kingpin you could debate whether it's really a masterpiece, but Bill Murray's hair really puts it over the top. Mary is the more complete movie, but if you ask most folks who've seen both, I bet they'd say the Bill Murray hair gag is funnier than the Cameron Diaz hair-gel gag. And, I know this is just pulling out one very random line, but there's something great about the way Woody Harrelson delivers the line, "I've been liquored up for years, my judgment's not what it once was."
As for Irene, I just don't think it gets anywhere near the sense of someone-might-really-be-this-nuts that drives most of their movies. All the guys chasing Cameron Diaz, even if you've never done any of that stuff (and most of us haven't), you still understand, you remember liking someone that much.
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by jhon on Mar 21, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
You're attempting to engage in a discussion about the best movies of all time, bar none. I'm not all that interested in that; initially I got involved because of the back to back thing and other than that I just wanted to bring up some directors and movies that I really love. Along the way I've diverged into hyperbole, ended up actually making a pseudo controversial pro-Spike Lee argument, and generally made a fool of myself.
However, I don't think I'm making any mistakes. I'm perfectly capable of doing the kind of critical analysis that you're talking about; it's just that it's not really what I'm talking about.
In other words, stop hitting me with the gavel. I didn't even mean to come to court today.
Alan Ruck rules Spin City with a Gordie Howe jersey.
by afh4 on Mar 21, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
It's almost a cliche, but Cruise's performance in Rain Man was more impressive than Hoffman's, but of course it was bound to be less noteworthy. (See also: Denzel Washington in Philadelphia, not that that's a good movie.)
I also thought The Queen was pretty damned good. But don't worry, my taste in flicks isn't really your problem.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Pretty easy isn't it? Build a straw man and then tear it apart. I'm pretty sure that Armstrong and Ellington were considered "artist" in their time - pretty sure. BTW, I prefer the Count and Chick Webb from that era. And you're right when Ellington tried "serious art" he mostly missed the mark.
And you misstate my objection to CGI in you other post. It's not the CGI that I object too. It's when it becomes the focus of the movie that I object to it. How about this - spend almost as much effort on developing the characters as you do the graphics - how about that? I saw "Das Boat" yesterday - lots of FX - but, despite its name, it's a movie about people and plot. I saw "Enchanted" on the plane on the way back home. Pretty good flick full of FX. But then again it's was novel and kept my attention.
As to the stat ludites - which I guess I'm now lumped with - it's not the stats themselves that I object to. It's the misuse and sloppy use of stats that I find objectionable. Like I keep saying almost every day, I use stats in my job all the time. I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on their uses and limitations - pretty sure. But they do have limitations.
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I can promise you that nobody in the 1930's was talking about Ellington as possibly the most significant composer of the century, but he was no doubt considered a very fine entertainer.
As for the stat luddite thing, what I'm really getting at is that if our most rigorous analytizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz ...
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by fleerdon on Mar 19, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
International audiences love event movies like Americans do. They certainly travel better than character driven English-language pieces. Listen, I've been on the receiving end of calls wondering why some hip American-centric movie based on teens in the San Fernando Valley is not playing in Japan. Maybe because Japanese (or Germans, French, Chinese...basically everyone else in the world) don't give a hoot about teens in the San Fernando Valley...and why should they. But if it's about Robots from the future attacking Earth, or a fairy princess from some time of yore, yeah, they get it.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by fleerdon on Mar 19, 2008 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Sandler by the way is a pretty good guy. He used to play hoops with the employees at lunch on the studio lot.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Never saw Last Samurai but would like to.
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Don't forget Tom "Viper" Skerritt. I love Tom Skerritt.
Oh, and here's original Righteous Brothers version, lip syncing and all. Still good stuff.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
(IMBD has him as "Merlin" - but I thought that was the call sign of the 'rear' who took Goose's place for the final dogfight. (Who, by the way, had a more memorable performance than the short Scientologist.))
Anyway, all I can remember of Robins is how stupid he looks on the deck of the carrier celebrating at the end. Still, how would he ever have gotten the role of Ebby Calvin 'Nuke/Meat' LaLoosh without that part?
by Harry Doyle on Mar 19, 2008 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Then at the end of the movie, Mav, Ice, etc. end up on that same carrier (same baldheaded guy, coffee guy, etc). He got assigned Merlin as his rear for the final flight since Goose was gone and Merlin lost his front when he walked away at the beginning of the film.
Favorite quote of Merlin's "You're gonna DO WHAT?" when Mav tells him he's going to put the brakes on.
by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
BTW, the scene I hate the most in that movie is where Maverick goes to Viper's house. First, his wife actually calls him "Viper." Then, before going outside, Viper HAS to put on his hat. Finally, while outside, he tells Maverick information that could get him Court Martialed which consists of 10 seconds about how - 'he was lost in a dogfight in the wrong airspace'. <ugh!>
by Harry Doyle on Mar 20, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
...What?
by fleerdon on Mar 19, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by emil minty on Mar 20, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Cruise as a smart-assed punk - now that's type casting.
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Harry Doyle on Mar 19, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
As for weights, I wish had accurate readings were availabe because they might reveal a lot if tracked well. We look at all sorts of statistical indicators to try to predict performance, what about if a guy is just getting phat. That's why I think the attempt by Steincat to get at it is a good idea.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Wait a second ...
by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The last two had many, many CGI scenes in them, but they weren't obtrusive and carried the story - the story - along. That's what I'm talking about.
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
But Eastwood has also been fairly prolific and quite inconsistent -- his great films come amid a lot of pretty good and mediocre movies and a few that are almost unwatchable. Very solid technically and known for doing a great job running a set, he thrives on and relies upon having a great script as much as any top director I can think of. Sometimes he has a great script, like Unforgiven, and delivers a really great movie. But he often goes forward without a great script, and the results are not good. It's not like he's a guy like DePalma or the Coens or Scorsese or even Spielberg, where even if the movie kind of sucks it's still really great just to look at.
In between Unforgiven and Mystic River, Clint made seven other movies, and only Bridges of Madison County was particularly well received. Some were kind of interesting (Perfect World, True Crime), most were okay but forgettable (Absolute Power, Blood Work). And one of them, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, might be the worst movie I've ever seen -- and yes, I am saying it's worse than They Live! with Rowdy Roddy Piper.
So yeah, Clint has made some classics, but it is a pretty mixed bag overall. Since Mystic River, though, he does seem to be on quite a roll, and I honestly haven't seen all of them.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The worst movie ever with actors and a director who are actually successful elsewhere is:
by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I style myself something of a bad movie connoisseur, and if anybody *really* wants to see something that'll make them want to gouge their eyes out, I (don't) recommend Nukie.
by mrich on Mar 20, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
One of my favorite "The Far Side" cartoons showed the Devil behind the counter of a movie rental store in the bowels of Hell and a few customers milling through the aisles. Every box on every shelf was labeled Ishtar.
I've never seen Red Sonya, but what exactly is the criteria for "worst 'big name' movie of all time"? If it's at all based on expectations or hype, doesn't Heaven's Gate have to top the list. I destroyed a movie studio after all.
by Harry Doyle on Mar 20, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Piper: I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick a**...and I'm all out of bubble gum.
Please, watch it again and tell me he didn't deserve an Oscar Madison for that.
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I like New Order more than I like the Beatles. I would be perfectly happy if I never hear a Beatles tune ever again. But aside from the fact that they're both popular English bands, as cultural phenomena there isn't a comparison. That's how I feel about Speilberg's films, but I'll probably go and see his next one.
I thought Atonement was terrific.
Neil Jordan has some good ones. I think The Butcher Boy is underappreciated.
by jhon on Mar 20, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Harry Doyle on Mar 20, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Voltaire on Mar 21, 2008 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Harry Doyle on Mar 21, 2008 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Voltaire on Mar 21, 2008 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Brick. on Mar 21, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Harry Doyle on Mar 21, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 21, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by kwoog on Mar 20, 2008 5:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
What was true in Godard's day is true today: American films are the most popular in France. The French love Clint Eastwood. I think it's fair to say that he's more appreciated over there than he is here.
Louis Malle's Elevator to the Gallows will appear on AMC now and then. That's on my personal favorites list.
by jhon on Mar 20, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
at the end of the day, i'm a content over form kind of guy... so the politics/economics isn't an aside for me. but it doesn't have to be political, as Fellini's 8 1/2 is probably my personal favorite. i'll check out Malle.
by kwoog on Mar 21, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I sumbit to you Norman Rockwell's 13 Jan 1962 Saturday Evening Post cover "Art Connoisseur".Give it a second look.
by jhon on Mar 23, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by kwoog on Mar 23, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by talonk on Mar 21, 2008 10:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 21, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 21, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
And not to mention how thorough Jackson and company were. Every little detail was covered. There was a reason they achieved many technical awards. All costumes were hand made. All the weapons were also hand made just for these movies.
The prosthetics and make-up were astounding. How they achieved the Gandalf and the hobbit scenes was brilliant.
I totally recommend all of the behind the scenes footage/documents on the DVD. Even if you don't watch the actual film, the amount of care in making the movie was incredible to view.
by talonk on Mar 24, 2008 11:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by drerikbrady on Mar 24, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by drerikbrady on Mar 24, 2008 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
BTW, saw Michael Clayton this weekend. Great flick.
by mauichuck on Mar 24, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
by talonk on Mar 24, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Watched Clerks with my son Saturday - talk about low PVs, but still the story kept my interest.
by mauichuck on Mar 24, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Not to mention the parallels to World War I are pretty evident, but I doubt you'd listen to me anyways. C'est la vie.
As for Clerks, good flick. Not my favorite of Smith's, but excellent nonetheless. I liked Dogma better.
by talonk on Mar 24, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

by 

















