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The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo

I've been having some conversations with a buddy in LA about Andruw Jones being fat.  So I decided to take a look at the fattest listed weights in the game - I pulled my info from ESPN.com rosters as of 3/14, and it is not the full 40-man, but is above 25, so most teams have around 35 people listed (1,006 total players).  I recognize that listed weights aren't that accurate, and that this is more trivial than informative, but I found it interesting anyways:

(1)  CC is tied for fattest listed weight in the league, along with Jonathan Broxton, at 290.  Wow.  The saving grace for Charleston Chew is that he has 3 inches on Broxton.

(2) The White Sox are the fattest team in the majors (avg wt = 221), followed by the Yankees (219).  This couldn't have turned out any better, IMHO.

(3)  The general numbers between AL and NL by position are pretty similar, except that at CF, AL is 10 lbs heavier than NL (202 v. 192).  The next largest variance of any position is RF 7 lbs (214 v. 207), and then 5 lbs LF(204 v. 209), with NL being heavier.  Given that there are 8 people named as DH in the AL (avg wt = 235), it surprises me that AL outfielders are also much heavier.

(4)  All three AL divisions are heavier, with avg wt of W (210) / C (210) / E (208) on average, than NL divisions, C (208), W (205), E (204).  AL (avg wt = 209) is heavier than NL (206).

Star-divide

Position breakdowns (min 100 ABs in 2007):
(AL / NL )

Catcher
Skinny: I Rodriguez, DET (190) / J Flores, WAS (180)
Fat:    T Hall, CHW (255) / R Paulino, PIT (245)
Tribe Note: Victor's 210 is below Catcher AL avg of 214

1B
Skinny: R Gload, KC (190) / R Aurilia, SF (190)
Fat:    R Sexson, SEA (240) / P Fielder, MIL (270)
Tribe Note: Garko 225 is right on 1B AL avg of 223

2B
Skinny: AstroCab, CLE (170) / M Fontenot, CHC (160)
Fat:    M Cairo, SEA (208) / R Weeks, MIL (213)
Tribe Note: Asdrubal tied with new teammate Carroll for lightest AL at 170, soaking wet

3B
Skinny: M Izturis, LAA (170) / C Counsell, MIL (179)
Fat:    S Rolen, TOR tied Miggy Cabrera, DET (240) / T Glaus, STL (240)
Tribe Note: Blake's 210 is close to 3B AL avg of 207

SS
Skinny: J Lugo, BOS (175) / J Rollins, PHI (168)
Fat:    J Uribe, CHW (225) / M Tejada, HOU (213)
Tribe Note: Jhonny's chubby face and lack of range belie his weight of 210, tying him for third fattest SS in MLB

LF
Skinny: R Johnson, TOR (180) / E Chavez, NYM (165)
Fat:    R Ibanez, SEA (225) / A Dunn, CIN (275) WOW!
Tribe Note: Delucci edges out Michaels for skinny honors, 205 to 206 - right on LF AL avg of 204

CF
Skinny: Ichiro, SEA (172) / W Taveras, COL (160)
Fat:    M Byrd, TEX (245) / E Dukes, WAS (220)
Tribe Note: Grady is at 200 even, a little less than the AL CF avg of 202

Side Note: Turns out Andruw Jones LISTED weight is 210, which is far from Marlon Byrd territory. I think actuals would give a lot closer competition.

RF
Skinny: Gootz, CLE (190) / S Victorino, PHI (180)
Fat:    J Dye, CHW (245) / A Kearns, WAS (245)
Tribe Note: Franklin checks in almost 25 lbs lighter than AL avg of 224, as he truly represents a CF playing the corner

DH - only 8 listed as full-time DH
Skinny: J Vidro, SEA (200)
Fat:    F Thomas, TOR (275)
Tribe Note: Pronk holds his own with the big boys, checking in at 240 against the DH avg of 235

P - did not separate relief v. starter
Skinny: F Cabrera, BAL (170) / W Rodriguez, HOU (160)
Fat:    C.C., CLE (290) / J Broxton, LAD (290)
Tribe Note: I'll stick to starters - Fausto (230), Westbrook (215), Byrd (190 with HGH, 189 without), Lee-Laffey-Sowers (190-180-180) are mostly far from the AL average of 211.  And JoBo, despite looking and pitching like Wickie, is listed at 215 somehow.  Like his ERA, his belly must be inflated from a few bad trips to the all-you-can-eat buffet

So general reaction is that Tribe is right around league average, maybe even a little light, with the obvious exception.  No clue how that projects to performance, but I'm going to say it is positive (less injury risk?)

--> Full data set of 1,000+ players can be viewed at google docs

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Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
It's always sunny reference.

I see what you did there...

by MikeCP on Mar 18, 2008 10:22 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
See this whole diary starts off with a bad premise: heavy weight = fat.  Much too simplistic.

I was in London a few years back and picked up the Times and there was one of those typical cheeky British articles about the Indians and Jacobs field.  Most of the article centered on the high calorie food being served at the park and how obese many of the fans looked - all true enough.  But then the punk "reporter" went on to comment that even the players were fat and sited the 240 pound/14 stone Jim Thome as an example of a "fat" player.  We all know that this is just sloppy.  No one would describe the 230 pound Albert Pujolz as "fat" whereas "fat" certainly describes Ronnie Belliard at 197 pounds.  Jeez I just noticed, are you saying that Fausto at 230 is "fat"?  

Anyway, I'm sure you knew this before I pointed it out.  Let's just call your whole premise specious and let it go at that.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 18, 2008 10:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
do you think the same guy would have the stones to say fausto had bad teeth if he visited there today?

by Brick. on Mar 18, 2008 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
He did more or less acknowledge the speciousness in the intro. Still, it would be nice to see the whole thing re-done using body-mass index or something of that nature, which at least corrects for height differences even if nothing else.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Doesn't BMI consider Lebron and Kobe obese?  I understand what you're saying, and I think stein knew going in this was more for fun than anything else, but I think when you're dealing with pro athletes -- at least pro athletes in team sports like baseball, basketball, or football -- you have to use an entirely different type of scale, or more likely none at all because the majority of them are so far to end of the bell curve.
Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Mar 19, 2008 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Well, we don't have to pay attention to the labels, we can just use the numbers so that we're comparing weight relative to height.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Although its a different sport it ain't helped by the image of guys with huge guts playing American Football professionally....even if it is their job to be big and in the way.

I agree that the breakdown needs to give at least some concession to height (ie BMI), but I appreciate that that isn't particulary scientific, but would at least give it another angle.

Still, nice write up steincat and definitely interesting

http://www.on-the-bench.blogspot.com - an irreverant take on EPL football (that's soccer!)

by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on Mar 19, 2008 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Completely agree with all points.  I thought of using BMI, but I had a girlfriend in college who was obsessed with BMI even though she was a twig because she thought she was too fat, so I didn't think the extra work of calculating that would lead to better results (plus this was just a bored day at work).  Using 'Fat' was just a label - being 6'4" and 230 lbs is probably pretty damned fit for a pro athlete.

I was more searching for "above average weight" or "below average weight" and trying to see if anyone stood out as way off.  I really didn't find that, other than Adam Dunn being awfully big for an outfielder.

If today is a slow day again, maybe I can rework it.

by steincat on Mar 19, 2008 7:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
New results using BMI (League avg is 26.73) :

Prince Fielder blows everyone out of the water with BMI of 37.65.  Top 5:

(1) P Fielder, MIL (37.65)
(2) J Broxton, LAD (35.30)
(3) B Jenks, CHW (34.37)
(4) C Delgado, NYM (32.99)
(5) Y Brazoban, LAD (32.98)

On the other side, there are a surprising number of people at the bottom of the list who are either relief pitchers or bench players - which just goes to show that if you don't juice, then you're gonna be an also-ran.

by steincat on Mar 19, 2008 12:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I do genuinely admire the effort.  That took a lot of work.  However, slicing-and-dicing bad data, then comparing those bad data points, is a complete non-starter for me.  Maybe some trend analysis can be justified, but not comparing this guy to that guy, knowing their acknowledged weights are likely wrong to begin with. The outliers, (low or high) are most likely the obvious culprits, so it's dicey comparing them and drawing conclusions.  

But you do bring up a good issue. I wish there was a site that had the true weights and heights of pro athletes (and even entertainers...that could be Tom Cruise or Will Smith or Adam Sandler).  What is up that pro sports can't be candid about this stuff?

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
My point exactly.  Besides I think it's pretty much irrelevent.  What conclusions can you draw?  Fielder has the highest BMI along with CC.  So you want humungous pitchers and first basemen?  What would you do with a Ron Guidry or Cecil Cooper?  

BTW, do you really find Cruise and Sandler "entertaining"?

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
"You eat pieces of noun for breakfast?"

by mrich on Mar 19, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
My Lord, people are getting uptight around here.

We can certainly survey imperfect data and find it interesting.  Nobody is drawing specific conclusions or claiming scientific validity.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I guess I'm showing corporate wounds, having been roped countless times by reports and analysis based on sketchy data. I used to hear this one from people "Yeah, yeah, I know the data is bad, but you can't ignore the conclusions..."  If you stopped people before they got started, you saved a lot of anguish later on.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Again - I agree.  I didn't feel that I made any points and I mentioned that the data was not exactly accurate, but it was the best I could easily get my hand on.

By the time I played around with it, I realized that it was informational, but not informative (if that makes sense).

I don't think I tried to draw any conclusions, and maybe it was a waste of space because of that.  I guess I just thought it was interesting to see the outliers at some level.

On a side note, I am glad that it somehow sparked a movie review discussion that was entertaining.

by steincat on Mar 20, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'm not saying one can't draw some conclusions, if you did have the correct data. But you have to start with correct data first and foremost.  I mean, if one found that 10 out of 11 humongous first basemen had knee problems and were cooked by age 32, that'd be important to know from a GM's perspective on what kind of contract to offer them.  Or if you tracked a shortstop or second baseman's weight, you might be able to compare it to how many groundballs they reached (or didn't).  The Indians may have done just that to Peralta as he showed up slimmer in 2007 than in 2006.

Guilty, I do like Cruise and Sandler, in the right movies.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Oops, meant my comment as a follow-up to Chucks.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Baseball Reference has Jhonny at 180 pounds and Cal Ripken at 225.  Who do you think's got the better range?  But you're comment on knee injuries is spot on.  Compressive weight is a good indicator or future injury.

Re: Sadler and Cruise - it's the "right movie" that's the tough part.  I liked the job Kevin Costner did in "The Big Chill".  Cruise or Sadler wouldda been perfect for that role too.  Other than that, I can't imagine what else they'd be good in.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Ripken was known for his height but not his range.

Movies in which Tom Cruise did a pretty fine job:  Risky Business, Rain Man, The Firm, Interview With The Vampire, Jerry Maguire, Magnolia, Minority Report, Collateral, War of the Worlds.

Sandler's list:  The Wedding Singer, The Waterboy, Big Daddy, Punch-Drunk Love, The Hot Chick, Spanglish, and we can assume "Untitled Judd Apatow/Adam Sandler Project" is going to be pretty good, too.

Like many actors who've had wild box office success, they've figured out what kinds of movies work for them (according to audiences) and mostly made those movies.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Not 'Eyes wide Shut'?

I actually can't rememeber what the heck it was about.  Isn't it supposed to be pretty good?

by jhon on Mar 19, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Eyes Wide Shut was easily Stanley Kubrick's worst movie.  Panned by the critics, box office flop, notable only for lots of boobs and a big party orgy scene performed by people wearing nothing but masks, iirc.  Reminiscent of a Grisham novel meets Dan Brown.
Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
That's a pretty devestating review.  Guess it doesn't warrant a reappraisal.  I remember a couple scenes like you describe.  I couldn't follow the plot because I was pretty baked.

by jhon on Mar 19, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Interesting that you say it's his worst movie, and your evidence is ...

  • Panned by the critics
  • box office flop
  • notable only for ...

... none of which has anything to do with why an individual viewer would or should find it to be good or bad.

It clearly isn't a good movie, but there's a lot of good stuff in it, even aside from the nudity.  Provocative and interesting stuff.

In all these respects (except the nudity), not unlike A.I., Kubrick's would-be last movie that got made by Spielberg.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
If you want individual reasons:

  1. The character development was nonexistent.  I actually hated Nicole Kidman more as the movie went on.  She was neither a compelling lead nor someone I found worthy of empathy.

  2. The script and dialogue weren't up to Kubrick's other works.  The level of conversation that you find in Kubrick's other work isn't there, but some of that may be due to the fact that he died before the final edit was in the can.

  3. The overall tone of the movie was... opaque?  I don't know if that is the right word to describe it.  I never felt pulled in.  I felt like I was watching a puppet show through my neighbor's closed window.  The atempt was ceratinly made to be immersive, and Kubrick pulls it off in other movies, esp (to me) 2001, but he totalled missed here.

But its just my opinion.  Its not evidence.  Your milage may vary.
Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I more or less agree with every point, I just wanted to make sure you actually had some.  I don't like secondhand reviews, and I personally have a lot of kind words for a lot of unsuccessful movies.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Not to quibble, but "box office success" != "fine job" to this humble consumer.

I thought his 90-minute freakout in War of the Worlds was classic Cruise, but he never made me want to root for him one iota.  Dakota, sure, but she's a little girl.

Collateral I'll give you, he oozes slimy-psycho, probably from all of the brain probing.

And I may be in the minority here, but I hate hate hate Magnolia.  His part in it was a lot of the reason, but I think it was poorly conceived and poorly executed.

As for Sandler, for every Waterboy, there are a small horde of Click, Bulletproof and Airheads.  I think his hit rate for picking good parts, and playing them well, is about 25%.  I guess that's above the Mendoza line, though.  I do have high hopes for the Jewish commando movie coming out.  I think he's trying to rediscover his roots in funny faces and goofy voices.

Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I thought Cruise was bordering on riveting in War of the Worlds, and mostly, I understood his character, and that person felt real to me (as these things go).

I like Magnolia but don't love it.  I don't pass judgement on those who hate it, the filmmaker is obviously not working very hard to make it liked, and yes, I do mean that as a criticism.

I never said Sandler had a high batting average, but doesn't .333 get you into the Hall of Fame eventually?  Nobody bats 1000 except John Cazale, and he only pulled it off by dying.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Let me make sure I got this right.  You think that The Wedding Singer, The Waterboy, and Big Daddy were worth 3 hours of your time, let alone the $7.50 to see 'em?  Jay, I gotta worry about your taste in flicks.

Risky Business - just for Rebecca DeMorney - is worth seeing.  Cruise is OK in it, I guess. Rain Man was just another buddy movie with the autism twist and besides, that was Dustin Hoffman chewing the scenery for three hours - boring. I'll give you Jerry McGuire, but do you really believe that Cruise was a better choice than Michael Keaton?  As to Top Gun and War of the Worlds, I hate any flick that relies on CGI to drive the story.  

I guess I'm just tired of pop "culture" in general - Tom Clancy, Speilberg, Tolkien, the PD Sport Section, Fox News, Yani, Harry Potter, Time, SI, ESPN, Kenny G, ............

I guess the last good movie I saw - one that kept my attention any way for the entire movie was The Queen with Helen Mirren.

As to audiences size as a measure of artistic worth.  All I gotta say is that Lawence Welk sold a lot more albums than Billie Holiday.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
chuck, my wizened ol pal ... you are slipping.

As to Top Gun and War of the Worlds, I hate any flick that relies on CGI to drive the story

Exactly how much CGI was done in Top Gun when it was filmed in 1984???

And Tolkien is NOT pop culture. Until Peter Jackson made his masterpieces (and yes with excellent CGI), anybody who was a Tolkien fan was considered a nerd, not part of pop culture.

Funny you should name Spielberg (who is a modern master) and not Lucas? Lucas was the mastermind behind a lot of Spielberg driven movies as well. Oh, and another tidbit for you, if Lucas hadn't made Star Wars IV, he was originally scheduled to film Apocolypse Now instead of Coppola.

by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I really don't know how much CGI was used in Top Gun but if you're implying that '84 was too early for CGI to be a factor I'm pretty sure you're wrong.  Wasn't that seminal work "Star Wars (I)" done in '77 and "Westworld" done in '73?

Speilberg's all over the map now - shlock then something "artistic" but always heavy handed.  About as subtle as a punch in the face.  It's just boring and insulting.

I can't imagine how bad a Lucas "Apocolypse Now" wouldda been.  But as it was I thought "The Deer Hunter" handled the subject matter much better.

Here's the bottom line, Hollywood in the '90s and 00s is like Detroit in the '70s and '80s.  The visionaries that built their industry have been replaced by bean-counters who think they've found a "formula" for success.  What they've really found is a formula for disasster.  In 20 years Hollywood's gonna look like Detroit does now - and no Jay, I don't have a CI for this.  They'll probably be makin' most of the box office stuff in New Dehli or Hong Kong.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Ok, back up for a second.

The 1977 Star Wars is Episode IV, not I (it was the first made and released).

Secondly, yes this was a "seminal" film for special effects, NOT CGI. CGI was not really a huge factor until the Jurassic Park timeframe. Of course Skywalker Ranch did play a role in developing CGI.

What little CGI there was in Top Gun was probably the flight simulator sequences the cadets watched while mocking each other. There may have been plenty of special effects, but I highly doubt there was much CGI at all to those "shots"

by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Look, I'm probably overstating the CGI thing, but you know what I mean.  The geewhiz factor of hurling through space or bullets passing through bodies or what have you.  It's gratuitous - like much of the nudity and sex - and the graphics become the reason to see the movie, not the plot or the characters.  I guess it comes with the medium, but you must admit it's beginning to lose it's appeal.

And forgive me if I can't keep track of all the Star Wars episodes and the chronologic order.  To me it's all a steaming pile of Sith.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
While I agree a lot of todays movies have overdone the special effects/CGI thing, (just to do it because we got $$ to burn), certain movies require having CGI play a vital role.

There is no way Lord of the Rings would have looked as fanstastic as it did without the CGI. Without it, we would have been stuck with hokey H R Puffenstuff looking scenes.

I believe the good directors will use CGI as necessary (to flesh out the story) rather than tell the story.

SO, to get back to the main point, your initital comment way back of the thread should have read SFX, not CGI, since that is what were truly complaining about.

by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Straw man.

Chuck, you might be surprised to hear then that most Star Wars fans would agree with you. That is, many of us who love Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back think that Lucas's interests started to turn towards purely gratuitous FX and idiotic "jokes" with Return of the Jedi (although it is still pretty decent). But the prequel trilogy is indeed almost entirely unwatchable, save the last one, which is merely bad.

I am clearly pretty nerdy have a lot of very nerdy friends (I think it's safe to say I'm in good company here). We all love movies, sci-fi included. And I've never heard anybody say they were going to see a movie just because of the special effects.

Do yourself a favor and rent the movie "Serenity". There's a darn good story in there, with great characters and great writing and hey what do you know -- it just so happens to have some spaceships in it.

by mrich on Mar 19, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
There's a pretty good argument that Lucas was (almost) a one-hit wonder.   If he doesn't hire Kasdan and Kershner to write and direct the sequel, Star Wars probably ends up about as culturally significant as The Matrix.

Certainly Lucas has directed no good movies since Star Wars and produced very little that's any good since Empire -- and no, I don't give him much credit for the Indiana Jones films.  Give me Harrison Ford and Spielberg at the peak of their powers, and I bet I could "produce" two really good movies in three tries, too, possibly without ever showing up.

The anti-CGI crowd, by the way, is suspiciously just like the anti-stathead crowd, embarassingly prone to condemning movies they've never seen over faults they often don't have.  "Maybe you should get your head out of the CGI and go to an actual screenplay once in a while!"  And just to bring the discussion full circle, if story and characters didn't matter in big-budget effects films, then why was Lord of the Rings so much more successful as a trilogy than The Matrix anyway?

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
then why was Lord of the Rings so much more successful as a trilogy than The Matrix anyway

To quote my favorite Baltimorean, H. L. Mencken: (because) "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public."

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
+1 Serenity.

Equal parts Western and Sci-fi.  Not very fancy on the Fx side, but Joss Whedon knows how to put together a great story.

If you're inclined, the movie was just a continuation of the TV series "Firefly" which I love.

Love love.  Hearts and bows.

Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I own the Serenity DVD.  Nice flick.  Wish they'd make another one.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I pretty much love CGI, but I've found the best examples of it in advertising.  You can't really make a car commercial without it.  I don't really have an aptitude for it, but some of my architect buddies are getting pretty good at rendering their designs in a CG environment.  

I keep an archive of commercials.  And I'd be happy to present them to anyone who cares.  If you think long and hard about the mathematics of animation, you'd be pretty awed.

by jhon on Mar 19, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Until Peter Jackson made his masterpieces (and yes with excellent CGI), anybody who was a Tolkien fan was considered a nerd, not part of pop culture.

Dean, I hate to break it to you ...

Funny you should name Spielberg (who is a modern master) and not Lucas? Lucas was the mastermind behind a lot of Spielberg driven movies as well.

See below for the dumping on Lucas.  Lucas is a hack.  Spielberg is the most successful and significant filmmaker ever.  Consider, one of the hardest things for any director to do is to make two really good movies in a row.  Here are some of Spielberg's best consecutive pairs of movies (and one trio):

  • Jaws, Close Encounters of the Third Kind (75-77)
  • Raiders of the Lost Ark, E,T. (81-82)
  • The Color Purple, Empire of the Sun, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (85-89)
  • Jurassic Park, Schindler's List (93)
  • Amistad, Saving Private Ryan (97-98)
  • Minority Report, Catch Me If You Can (02)
  • War of the Worlds, Munich (05)

Only a handful of directors have made a consecutive pair of movies as good as anything on this list, and few if any have two such pairs, let alone three, let alone seven.  Make particular note of his 2002 films, which show just how high the bar is for this guy at this point.  He makes two borderline masterpieces in the same year, and people barely even notice.  Like Tiger Woods, nobody is surprised by anything he does anymore, and he just keeps going.

His resume as a pure producer dwarfs Lucas's as well.  Hell, if you take away Indiana Jones, I'll take Animaniacs and Band of Brothers over Lucas' entire producing resume.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Sorry, not to nitpick or anything ...

I am not denying Spielberg is a better director than Lucas. As you've shown, he has the resume to prove it.

Just because Lucas chose to not direct anymore does not make him a hack (somehow everone forgets American Graffiti). He had others direct so he could focus on other aspects of the films. I see nothing wrong with that.

When Lucas ended up with the financial windfall from Star Wars (due to his and his lawyers foresight I might add), he chose to go into a different direction. Skywalker Ranch, THX sound systems etc. He decided to pursue other aspects of fimmaking to improve. (Do you think Pixar would be where it is today without Lucas?)

Without his technological advances, moviemaking would not be what it is today (good or bad, we know chuck's opinion). Spielberg (and a slew of others) has dervied a lot of financial windfall from Lucas whether by joint producing, writing, special effects, etc.

Spielberg has also done a lot of personal films, more power to him because he can.

To just paint Lucas as a hack is completely unfair.

by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The technical achievements of companies under Lucas' leadership are monumental, no doubt.  There's a difference between being a talented executive and a talented artist.  Lucas' choices of pursuits suggest some awareness of relative talents, and in particular his delegating the directing of the sequel to Star Wars is kind of incredible if you think about it.  If only he'd done the same for the directing (and writing) of the three later films.

The idea that Spielberg has profited from association with Lucas, however, is beyond ridiculous.  Take away his Spielberg-related projects, and Lucas' best project since 1980 is Tucker.  The same obviously cannot be said for Spielberg's projects without Lucas, which would include 9 of his 10 best and/or most successful films.  Truth is, neither man owes much of his respective immense fortune to the other.

Lucas' history as a Spielberg collaborator shouldn't be overstated just because he happens to also be the Star Wars guy.  Spielberg has possibly a dozen other people who have been more frequent or significant collaborators in his career, but you're not going to hear people bleating about how much he owes to Janusz Kaminski, Frank Marshall and John Williams.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
John Williams.  Now there is a giant hardly anybody knows about. No one knows his name, but can probably whistle 15 of his compositions while walking to work in the morning.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Oh Christ Charlie, I sat through one of those "Boston Pops with John Williams" extravaganza's - oy my head hurts just thinking of it.  I'd rather listen to Michael Bolton butcher Ray Charles tunes.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 3:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'd rather listen to Michael Bolton butcher Ray Charles tunes.

Sometimes you go too far, Chuck.  Too far.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Of course I've got a competitor for the crown - it's John Ford.  I'll give you Schidler's List, and Munich both compelling plot and character driven masterpieces.  And I like Empire of the Sun - quirky, original and a story I never heard before.  But even your boy raided some pretty threadbare plots with the Indiana Jones stuff.  He's good - real good.

But how about this: the Searchers - arguably one of the finest, most nuanced films of its time.  And Stagecoach - with a plot device that's been used over and over - you could say run into the ground by now.  But at the time it was seen as novel.  The Informer is another great flick.  And ya gotta love "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" just for Lee Marvin's over the top, cartoonish villain.  Couple the light entertainment stuff with some socially significant movie like "The Grapes of Wrath" and I think that Spielberg and Ford are at least in a dead heat.  Plus he made Sex Hygiene, an Army training film that's been the talk of the nation since it was first screened.

And he even topped that.  In the middle of the McCarthy BS when Cecil B. DeMille was petitioning the Directors Guild of America to require every card caring member of the guild to sign a loyalty oath, Ford said the following to a meeting of all of the guild members;

"My name's John Ford. I make Westerns. I don't think there's anyone in this room who knows more about what the American public wants than Cecil B. DeMille - and he certainly knows how to give it to them. But I don't like you, C.B., and I don't like what you've been saying here tonight."

Can you're boy Spielberg match that?

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Here's a good nuanced film you'd like.  Three Days of the Condor with Robert Redford.  Lots of layers. Suspenseful.  Thoughtful.  Doesn't pander. Makes the audience work a bit. It's one of my all time favorites.

The Searchers looks great on a big screen.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Loved Three Days of the Condor  Faye Dunaway was great as was Redford.  Of course it was based on the novel "Six Days of the Condor", but I imagine they hadta cut it down to fit inside the 2-3 hour model.

BTW, can you think of a movie made in the last twenty years that matches "The Wire" for nuance, substance and treats its audience like adults?  I recognize that you can be more expansive when you've got 40-50 some hours to work with, but "The Wire" is truly remarkable.  I might throw in "Rescue Me" and "The Sopranos" too, but they're not on the same plane as "The Wire".

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
That sounds like bait.  I may have to stew on that particular conundrum for a bit, but I bet you $5 I can come up with a half dozen moves <20 years old that match Condor, including another Redford spy movie.

1.  Spy Game
It might not have the suspense inherent to it that Condor has, but it makes up for that slight failure with a very well written script and a more plausible story line, along with some awfully clever plot devices.

I'll watch them both today here at work and give some notes later.

Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 20, 2008 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I had great hopes for Spy Game, but in no way, shape or form does it match up to Condor.  I do like Redford and Pitt in those roles too, it just didn't seem to click.  I'd like to hear the five you've got in mind.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
It wasn't that I had already identified others, I'm just betting that I can find some.  Still looking.
Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 20, 2008 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Since I was a TribeFanStuckInBoston during college, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt :-)  But I think you'll be hard pressed to find similar films that are as good.  But I'd like to hear about them because I'd love to find more.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Well it wasn't meant to be bait plus I think you misunderstand me.  It's not Three Days I'm talking about.  What I'm asking is, has there been a movie made in the last 20 years - hell has there been a movie ever made - that treats its audience with as much respect and expects so much of its audience as "The Wire"?  This should be easy.  You should be able to come up with dozens of movies.  But for the life of me I can't.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't think you can even compare movies with a show like The Wire.  Movies simply don't have the opportunity to be novels in the same way.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'm not talking about a one-on-one comparison.  I'm talking about the attitude of the director/writer about his audience.  When was the last time you went to a movie and had the same response as you did watching "The Wire"?  You know, I learned something, it wasn't heavy handed, it seem real/plausible.  You know what I'm asking.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't think any film could demand of its viewers what The Wire did, because no film could ever be that vast or complex.  No film could ask you to remember who Poot was, 20 hours of story after his last appearance.  No film could keep you wondering for eight hours if they were ever going to figure out where all the murders went (in the boarded up housing).

So it's really hard to compare, because that kind of novelistic complexity is possibly the main separator between The Wire and other great TV shows; The Sopranos was less complex, had fewer characters that were truly central, was more episodic and sometimes relied on flashbacks.  But The Wire in the end was that much more real/plausible than The Sopranos and more than a few times was kind of heavy-handed -- most egregiously with the cartoon-villain newspaper editors, but there were other examples, too.

So what I'm getting at is, the novelistic complexity was the main separator, and it's just not possible in films.  Some Altman films were as broad and sweeping, but they tended to be deliberately anti-coherent.  The Wire, huge as it was, was also deeply coherent, which is why it was so rewarding to watch closely.

You know what was really huge and complex, with an enormous cast of well-drawn characters, extremely coherent, and masterfully told with lavish attention to detail?  Lord of the Rings.  Too bad you can't sit through the CGI.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Haven't seen Lord of the Rings don't plan to either.  It's the "Swords and Sorcery" thing I can't get past.  Kinda like East Indian art and sushi.  I just don't get the appeal.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The appeal is story and characters.  Duh.

Am I, like, the only person who actually enjoys and appreciates movies that aren't necessarily "my kind of movie?"  Because I don't like swords and sorcery movies either, and I don't like heartwarming movies about aliens, or a half dozen other types of movies we've discussed.  But I appreciate great filmmaking when I see it, and I'd rather see that then whatever "my kind of movie" is.

And by the way, my kind of movie is Hudson Hawk.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
You're not the only one if I count. But many of my friends are the same way. They wouldn't sit through Serenity because they don't like sci-fi and couldn't look past the spaceships. I just don't understand. The characterization and writing in that movie (and Firefly, of course) is both a delightful rehash of old west characters and refreshingly original, and definitely worth watching. They missed out.

by Voltaire on Mar 21, 2008 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
See, I can't suspend disbelief with the S&S stuff.  Neither the stories nor the characters speak to me.  What can I say?  

And yeah, Bruce Willis flicks are a guilty pleasure of mine too.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Oh would you like to swing on a star, carry moonbeams home in a jar and better off than you are, or would you rather be a fish?
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Mar 21, 2008 6:48 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I loved Hudson Hawk for its non-reverence way of looking at cat-burglars. The story itself was too "Goldmember"ish (DaVinci the base for evil masterminds?) but I love most Willis movies. His job in the Jackal was smooth and calculating. Not to mention Sixth Sense or Hart's War. He's very underrated as an actor IMO (I know he's made some clunkers, who hasn't).

by talonk on Mar 21, 2008 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't think your accounting enough for taste here. I think a lot of those movies suck.

Plus, I think you're argument about "back to back" greats is interesting but maybe a little under-researched.

Off the top of my head with some wiki:


  • Tim Burton made Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, Beetlejuice, Batman, and Edward Scissorhands all in a row.

  • All 4 of Paul Thomas Anderson's major releases (Boogie Nights, Magnolia, Punch-Drunk Love, There Will Be Blood) are pretty freaking good and were all made in a row.

  • The Coens made Blood Simple, Raising Arizona, and Miller's Crossing all in a row. Then, later, they made Fargo, The Big Lebowski, and O Brother Where Art Thou all in a row.

  • Tarantino made Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction back to back.

  • Robert Zemeckis made Back to the Future and Who Framed Roger Rabbit back to back. He made Forrest Gump and Contact back to back later. I don't even like Contact but I think some people around here have said they do before.

I like all the movies above (except for Gump and Contact) more than every Spielberg movie except for maybe Jaws, Schindler's List, and Saving Private Ryan.

I feel confident there are more examples.

Plus, isn't the whole concept a little wacky? Doesn't it matter more how good their movies are as a body, or how good their best movie is, or something like that? This two in a row standard, what does it really mean?

However, I'll allow that if you're into all those Spielberg movies, which is fine, I doubt you'll find my list very convincing. I just also doubt there's a lot of point to trying to argue why one set of films or one director's body of work is better than anothers. In some cases, it's obvious (like Lucas and his terrible filmography-other contributions notwithstanding) but in many, it's just taste.

by afh4 on Mar 19, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Oh, I'm accounting for taste -- but are you accounting for anything but your own taste?  My question for you would be, what point are you trying to make here?  Are you really going to claim that one of the filmmakers you've named is more successful than Spielberg?  More significant?  More accomplished?  What exactly?

I'll readily concede that those who save their affections for only art-house fare -- or, judging from your list, for only the most accessible art-house fare -- will not have much affection for Spielberg.  Same folks turning their nose up at Dickens and who would never have gone to a dance hall to see Ellington.  These folks don't just love the film Barton Fink, they are Barton Fink.  Tell me again about how much you love films about the common man!

Here's the thing, Andrew -- unless you think that your taste is the only thing that matters, there isn't much of a point to make here.  I've watched Magnolia a few times, once recently in fact, but anyone who doesn't realize that Spielberg has made 10 and possibly 20 films that are more accomplished and -- in just about every way -- more successful than Magnolia is just being a tastemonger, not casting a critical eye.

There's a difference between liking movies like Magnolia -- which I do -- and thinking it's a great film -- which it simply isn't.  Those who prefer it to Spielberg's over-reaches like A.I. are talking about only about taste, not about filmmaking skill or success or significance.  You like P.T. Anderson movies, so you simply list all of them as masterpieces.  That isn't skill or accomplishment or success or significance -- it's only taste, and a very specific demographic taste.

I also love that you put Zemeckis on the list.  He's had a great career, too, obviously, but it's practically a spin-off of Spielberg's career. It's like saying Trapper John M.D. might be just as significant as MASH.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 12:53 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'm simply not down with the statement:

but anyone who doesn't realize that Spielberg has made 10 and possibly 20 films that are more accomplished and -- in just about every way -- more successful than Magnolia is just being a tastemonger, not casting a critical eye.

I think it's belittling and pretty close to totally unfair. I suspect more than a few people agree. The bizarre part is, your not even belittling my taste. I just made a quick list because I knew this "back to back" standard wouldn't hold up, and it didn't. And then you talked down to me about two of the directors listed, ignored the others, and referenced a movie that I didn't even list.  

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I didn't say that nobody else ever made good movies back-to-back, and other than that, I'm still trying to figure out what your argument is.

Every director you listed, Spielberg had them beat 25 years ago, and he's done plenty since.  Those first four I listed (Jaws, Close Encounters, Raiders, E.T.) all made the AFI 100; they're all among the top-grossing films of all time -- and you want to compare these with cult classics like Beetlejuice and Reservoir Dogs?  What, did you forget to include Existenz?

Please understand, I'm not knocking or disqualifying movies for being art-house flicks or for merely being cult classics rather than gigantic hits -- but let's be serious, with few exceptions, you're not exactly throwing movies of the caliber of Mean Streets at me here.

I realize that all the films you list meet some "dude, that movie is awesome" test, but only a handful of them meet the threshold I'm talking about.  You could knock a few of the 15 films I listed for Spielberg, but solidly a dozen of them were monumental critical and box office successes and influential or groundbreaking films.  It's a whole different standard and scale than Tarantino's career, and no doubt Tarantino would be the first to tell you that.

No, I will not say one bad word about the Coen brothers, and it's not my fault you failed to mention Barton Fink.  I will not rest until Turturro and Goodman each have at least one Oscar, damn it.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Barton Fink is a lot better than the Big Lebowski but I'm the only one who seems to think so.

Consider, one of the hardest things for any director to do is to make two really good movies in a row. /

All I'm saying is I'm not sure that's really true of great directors. I suspect it's pretty common, depending on how much you account for taste.

The second part of what I was saying was just that I don't think Spielberg overwhelms the competition the way you portray it.

I wasn't saying that any of these directors individually match Spielberg in terms of immenseness, when you're talking about box office receipts, screenings, cultural significance etc. But I think the balance swings regularly towards all the directors I listed when you talk about whether the movies are /actually really good. I think Spielberg movies are fine but I'm a lot less interested in Amistad, any Indiana Jones movies, Close Encounters, Catch Me If You Can, etc than I am in any Coen Brothers movie. Obviously, that's the difference in taste and I don't see much point in arguing about it.

I'm not really sure how we're defining cult classic here, either. Beetlejuice is on television constantly. I've never seen Empire of the Sun on television. Beetlejuice made 73 million dollars in it's initial release, making it the tenth biggest movie of the year. As I'm sure you know, Empire of the Sun wasn't really supposed to make money and it didn't.

I guess my general problem here is that you're painting things with a very broad brush (also my problem with Spielberg movies!). It's easy to not think about it and say "tons of Spielberg movies were smashes in every sense of the word" but I'm not prepared to sign off on that. I don't really feel like going through all of them but I postulate there's more nuance than either of us are really noticing-many movies that are remembered as being "critical successes" really weren't, many movies that seem small in their box office scope really weren't, etc. But neither of us is looking it up for all of them, and that's both of our faults. The above Beetlejuice example is just one-c'mon, that's not a cult classic.

I see your point about the breaking of new ground but, to me, that's a lot like Lucas and the Jedi Ranch or whatever. It's important but it's not the same as good filmmaking, especially in retrospect. Movies that are monumentally important aren't always super watchable the second time around. Like Birth of a Nation. That's a joke.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I think frankly that you have not really sat down to watch the films in question a second time around.  If you're half as astute about films as you think you are (and I think you are), you would not be able to be so dismissive.

I think frankly that you're hating him for being overwhelming popular, and your tastemonger instincts are blinding you to his mastery of the craft.  Watch even his most recent stuff, it's not edgy, but it is impeccable.  The indie film guys also have immense gaping flaws in their game, as Spielberg does, but you basically give them a free pass because they're not Spielberg, and they are making films aimed directly at smart, well-educated, culturally astute dudes in their 20's and 30's.

People forget or never knew, back in the day, E.T. debuted at Cannes, and audiences were in tears.  It only seems quaint now, 25 years later, having sunk completely into our culture.  Spielberg isn't just overwhelmingly popular, he's got obscenely good chops and was an immensely important filmmaker.  For better or worse, those four early films were all great films, all critical sucesses, all box office blockbusters, and they changed the industry forever.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Look, I've been a little off the cuff about all this, and maybe I shouldn't have been. Here are the Spielberg movies I think are really, truly great:

Saving Private Ryan
JP
Schindler's List
Hook
Probably one of the Indiana Jones movies, but I'm not sure which.
E.T.
Jaws

I like some of his other movies but I think they're pretty forgettable for one reason or another.

I got a little twisted up, and I was never trying to say that the particular group of directors I listed, individually, could go head to head with Spielberg. The only one of that list that I believe that of is the Coens. I think PTA might get there but who knows.

So, here's all I was trying to say:

1-Lots of directors make great movies back to back.

and the other thing that I've been sniffing around but for whatever reason didn't verbalize properly:

2-Spielberg is not even close to my choice for being the American filmmaker of the last 25-35 years. And no, my choices aren't Wes Anderson, Tarantino or PTA, despite my poorly chosen examples.

For me, Spielberg is behind the Coens and Scorsese, and he's way behind both of them.

I'm not trying to hate on the guy at all. I just thought this back to back thing was an interesting standard so I examined it. And then I said a couple of things from the hip about Spielberg and got sucked into this shame spiral of a debate.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
i'm not the right guy to jump in this fray, and this isn't meant to be O/T but what role did speilberg have in Band of Brothers?  I know it wasn't a 'movie' but that thing was bloody brilliant.

by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I think the fray is over. Jay just didn't realize I put on my /ehhh just sort of talking tag.

Spielberg co-produced Band of Brothers with Tom Hanks. What that means, I don't totally know.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
yeah, that's my level of knowledge on it too.  i just don't know where that falls between "wrote a check" and "made every decsision possible"

by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Just quit stressin' it and go watch Quintet.

Where are we going for Opening Day?

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I <i>think</i> that means he fronted money for it, and had some level of artistic control, but not day-to-day production level awareness, necessarily.  But I do think Hanks was very active, on a daily level, on Band of Brothers.  And I agree, it is truly remarkable, and an instant classic from HBO.

My favorite scene from the whole miniseries was in the second episode.  I really appreciate the detail in the assault on the German gun emplacement.  It seemed incredibly realistic to me, and the minicam work was terrific.

Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 20, 2008 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't know Spielberg's specific role in that specific project; it could have been a significant creative or advisory role, or it could have just been lending his clout and prestige.

I only brought it up because some folks like to give Lucas bonus points for his producing, which actually is not all that accomplished.  Spielberg's role Band of Brothers probably is not that much different from Lucas' role in the Indiana Jones films, where he contributed basic story ideas and executive produced -- but didn't produce, didn't write and didn't direct.

Band of Brothers is incredible, which is the other reason I brought it up.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I have nothing to add to all of this except that Band of Brothers is quite possibly the best ten hours of film I have ever seen.
I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Mar 21, 2008 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Couldn't agree more.  And the best part - the best part, was seein' the old dudes themselves.  Real honest-to-God heroes every one them.  And when Babe sang that song at the end I gotta admit, I was a little farklempt.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Hard to believe, you getting sentimental about a bunch of old guys.  I can tell you right now, 20-30 years from now, the old guys we're gonna have then won't be any damned good, not like the old old guys.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I have to agree with you.  My generation isn't a patch on my father's - that for certain.  We're a bunch of whiney panty-waist by comparison.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Perhaps in general that is true (and WWII was my gradfather's generation). I do think that there are people of this generation who would willingly make the same sacrifices and attempt the same things.

I rankle when people attempt to lump everyone under a certain age into one, underachieving, panty-waisted mass. There are still heroes out there, there is just not the same call for them as there was then.

I swear, next year is it.

by fwembt on Mar 21, 2008 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Except the Baby Boomers, right?  We can agree that they're a bunch of awful, spoiled babies, right?

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
True that.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 21, 2008 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
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by APV on Mar 21, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
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by fleerdon on Mar 23, 2008 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Oh, and Spike Lee. He might be behind Spike Lee, though I might be giving him too much credit for 'When the Levees Break' and '4 Little Girls.'

Although, Girl 6 is in the running for worst film ever involving real actors and a real director.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Spielberg is behind Spike Lee?

Man, I have seen every Spike Lee movie -- the best one is Clockers by the way -- more than once, but it's just blantant self-parody to call him a more significant filmmaker than Spielberg.  You really might as well say Wes Anderson.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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No way is Clockers his best!

She's Gotta Have It, Do The Right Thing, When The Levees Break, 4 Little Girls, and School Daze are all absolutely perfect films. I think Spike Lee's got to get credit for the number of grand slams he's hit in terms of changing how movies look, sound, etc. I guess he's not unlike Spielberg in that way. Do The Right Thing is best example but he invented, or at least popularized, a lot of the devices that terrible filmmakers rip off constantly.

Rosie Perez dancing is the best opening credits, ever.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Look, you admitted you don't even know which Indians Jones movie is the masterpiece, why should anyone take you seriously anymore?

I'm kind of fond of Get On The Bus, and I didn't mind Girl 6 that much.  She's Gotta Have It is far from a perfect film, but Mo' Better Blues is pretty close.  'course, I might just be biased because of all the jazz musicians I've known, and a few I've even liked.

Agreed on Rosie Perez.

No love for Malcolm X?  How about He Got Game, that brilliant scoring-against-type using Aaron Copland compositions?  I mention this to people sometimes, that Spike Lee has a movie that uses Aaron Copland for its score almost entirely, and they literally think I'm lying, making some kind of weird joke.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I think it's valid to look at a movie series built on character plot lines, see a couple of them that are obviously good and clearly lend a lot to each other, and be unsure on which one is superior.

I like all of the Spike Lee movies, except for Girl 6. Those ones I listed are probably my favorites, with the addition of the fact that they're (excepting docs) all early career, consecutive films, which made them spring to mind during this talk.

I think Malcolm X is a little overcooked but it's certainly an incredible biopic. I really think Spike's documentary work is ridiculous. I know it's probably not hard for great filmmakers, and most never try it, but when the levees broke absolutely gripped me. I couldn't wait for the discs to arrive.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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That both of you can watch and enjoy Do the Right Thing is a tribute to your appreciation of cinema.  I saw it on opening night and thought if Spike Lee can be a director, anybody can be a director.  That so turned me off to his stuff, I couldn't bring myself to even watch anything else. Although I have enjoyed his commercials. Maybe I need to re-look at his work with a more adult eye.  There is a group of aficionados who love his stuff, but I'm telling you it's smaller than you think.  He's a hard, hard sell.  I'll try Clockers and even Malcolm X on your  recommendations, but never Do the Right Thing. I'm hoping that was just a hiccup.

I even thought that Inside Man was a lost opportunity.  It could have been great, because the story itself was, but somehow the movie didn't live up to the story itself.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't disagree.  I enjoy most Spike Lee movies but don't at all agree with Andrew's contention that he's hit a whole bunch of grand slams, nor do I think a significant number of critics or serious film buffs would say that.  He's a significant director historically and has done some great work, but I think there are equally good arguments that he has zero masterpieces vs. four or five.

Do The Right Thing is a very interesting and extremely well done movie.  Provocative?  Yes, but no moreso than Jungle Fever, which ultimately has a lot more nuance, sophistication and character development, and is executed every bit as well.

I would agree that there's a vast segment of the population that has no interest in seeing any more "Spike Lee Joints," which is why he hasn't been able to do anything except low-budget stuff, documentaries, and hired-gun gigs (Clockers, Inside Man) for about ten years.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Jurrassic Park over Close Encounters?

Hook over anything?

Interesting.

I'm a serious fan of almost every filmmaker you've mentioned, and like you, I like their films more than Spielberg's.  But I can appreciate the man's skills and achievements, and the box office part is obvious.  Scorsese, despite decades of abject worship for Mean Streets and Raging Bull, has not achieved critically as much as Spielberg, i.e., he has not made as many films that are widely regarded as masterpieces.  Neither have the Coens, and PT isn't going to get there either.

And this is despite the fact that Spielberg has paid a heavy penalty critically -- even in this thread -- for being immensely popular.  The Oscars are not his domain, the AFI 100 is not his house ... and yet he's been so good, so many times, he ends up with a bunch of Oscars anyway, and five films on the AFI 100 anyway.  It's kind of like saying Hank Aaron wasn't much of a home run hitter; at some point, you have to recognize that he beat Babe Ruth anyway.

The critics, and perhaps you and I, would rather put five Scorsese films on that list, but be honest -- there aren't five Scorsese films to put on it, even after his relentless decade-long drive for prestige.  Same goes for the Coen brothers -- I think Barton Fink is great, I think Lebowski is great -- hell, I even think The Hudsucker Proxy is great -- but they aren't masterpieces.

So despite the handicap, Spielberg still ends up on top critically ... and only then do we get to the box office part of the discussion, where his films have probably has grossed more than everyone else we've mentioned here, combined.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I don't want to make it about this but a huge aspect of this is generational. I'm blind to a lot of Spielberg's best movies because by the time I saw them I had seen a million pieces of schlock imitating them. Specifically, Close Encounters comes to mind.

In contrast, I've never seen anything like a Coen Brothers movie. I've probably never really seen anything like Close Encounters either but I'm not trained enough to be able to tell.

I don't know about this Oscars and AFI not being Spielberg's domain. Who's domain are they more than his?

You're probably right in that I'm conflating "liking a movie" with "a movie being better." But, frankly, I don't know if I'm capable of emotionally divorcing far enough to differentiate those two things. I can do it with movies that are obviously not in the same league but it's hard when I know both movies are great even if one is more of an achievement.

Finally, Hook is awesome. I can't help it. I grew up on Hook.

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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is it safe to say andrew is the rufio of LGT?

by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Jay, this is only a question and not an argument.

Would you say that Coppola gets the nod for best back to back for Godfather I and II? Or does that not count since it is the same story essentially?

by talonk on Mar 20, 2008 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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There would be a lot of contenders for that award.

I don't consider the Godfather films to be one big film.  They were made as individual films and, in my view, actually function better that way, particularly Part I.  I'm not a huge fan of watching the whole thing in the story's chronological order.

Thing is, they weren't back to back.  The Conversation was in between and also nominated for Best Picture.  I suspect we'd have trouble finding a better four-film stretch than Godfather, The Converstaion, Godfather Part II, Apocalypse Now.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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The plot in the book by Mario Puzo actually covers the entire timeline across I and II.  I agree that the story was split up well across both films, but if you've read the book, and watching the movies in chronological order, I think you can really appreciate the transition and growth in Michael's character.

For what it's worth, the Godfather book is one of my favorite "vacation reads" of all time.  It's hard to put it down.

by steincat on Mar 20, 2008 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Yeah, well, you didn't ask me about the book.  Reading the book is frankly a lousy way to evaluate the movies.  They are what they are.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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My point was only that the story, as originally conceived, followed through both movies together, and not individually.  In the same sense, I prefer to think of them as one movie in two parts, in the same vain as Kill Bill.

by steincat on Mar 20, 2008 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Oh, well, I guess the difference is whether you're talking about a single story, told over the course of two distinct films, or whether it really was intended as a single long-ass film but had to be released as multiple movies.

The former applies to The Godfather where the original movie was made without necessarily expecting ever to make another one.  Essentially, they chose which part of the book to make into a movie, and their enormous success allowed them to make a second movie, quite different from the first in many respects.  You may prefer to think of them as one movie, but they never were.

Kill Bill was not like that, it was conceived and filmed as a single movie, and only edited into two movies for a better and more profitable release after it was shot.  Lord of the Rings was also filmed all at once and intended as a 10-12 hour film, cut up only for release.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Ridley Scott for a twofer: Alien then Blade Runner.  Two classics in a row.  Now you'll hate me...but, unless you are humorless like the Academy of Arts and Sciences, John Hughes for Breakfast Club, Weird Science and Ferris Bueller's Day Off and Planes Trains and Automobiles and the Farrelly Brothers for Dumb and Dumber, Kingpin (my favorite), There's Something About Mary and Me, Myself and Irene.  Unless we are just discussing serious cinema.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I'll reply down here to your up thread Spike Lee post, cuz we're runnin' outta room.  First let me apologize for my overly brutal slam of Mr. Williams.  Let's just say that was a particularly vivid experience that I never wanna live again.  That said, you and I are in violent agreement about Do the Right Thing.  Just boring and insulting.  However, When the Levees Broke is a remarkable chronicle of a manmade diaster.  Lee, for once, uses a little subtlety and let's the pictures and people tell the story.

I'm with you with John Hughes also.  My wife never misses Ferris Bueller's Day Off whenever it's on TV.  Of course it's got one home-boy in the cast, Alan Ruck, but I had high hopes for Mia Sara but it looks like she's fallen down the chasm of WE mini-movies.

If all you're ever gonna talk about is serious cinema, we'll never get to some of my favorite movies, like anything the Marx Brothers ever did.  Now that would be unfortunate.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Well, here again, I think you're making the same mistake as Andrew ... picking a director (or genre) you especially like, and then naming every movie of his that you like.  That is bound to have you including movies that are not considered masterpieces outside of their own fan cohort.  Weird Science is not a masterpiece, nor are Dumb and Dumber or Me Myself and Irene.  The others, I could make an argument for them.

Side note to Chuck ... Alan Ruck is not a hack and should have gotten an Oscar nod for his ballsy and note-perfect portrayal of Cameron.  He gave Cameron an unusual personality while also letting you feel like you might know him in real life.  You never caught him "acting" and never once doubted the truth of his performance.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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But I got you to admit to Kingpin...what an underrated flic  In fact, it is hard to make a great comedy.  Harder than people realize.  And I admire them because they don't take a lot of money to make and depend almost solely on ingenuity. I can watch those over and over again, all of them.  And Me, Myself and Irene though a slight disappointment when I first saw it in a theater, has really grown on me...just like Office Space.  MMI has the funniest 10 minutes sequence from the point he leaves the house in the morning when he got his newspaper stolen, to the point his "other personality" erupts from within at the grocery store, to the time he returns home in the evening.  You're right, it's not a masterpiece, but it is smartly done and something to be said for being able to watch something repeatedly and enjoy it.  It just resonates.

Funny thing about Alan Ruck in Ferris is that he was 29 when he played Cameron.  He gets extra points from me for being a native Clevelander who attended Parma High School.  All hail Alan Ruck!

The comedy genre always gets shafted by the Academy, except if it's Woody Allen.  Classics aren't just serious movies.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 21, 2008 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Which reminds me, all this talk about good directors and this is the first mention of Woody Allen's name, lost in a discussion of John Hughes films?

by NickFantana on Mar 21, 2008 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I almost brought up Woody Allen but decided to tag Spike Lee as my firebrand instead.

by afh4 on Mar 21, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Ah, the young artist's desperate diving for hipness and relevance.  I know a lot of young artists.

Here's some Woody Allen for you:  A real artist defines his own moral universe.  If you think Woody Allen is great, you need to know he's great, and as for why, it's because he just is, and as an artist, you know it.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Once again, I defy you to sit through Shadows and Fog.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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We're not talking about Woody Allen anymore.  It just looks like we are.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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What if I think Woody Allen is generally a better essayist thank filmmaker? What happens then?

by afh4 on Mar 24, 2008 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I'd love to have a conversation about Woody Allen, but then, we've already had it.

by NickFantana on Mar 24, 2008 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Comedies do get under-recognized, and obviously the Farrelly Brothers have not been embraced, nor has Judd Apatow.  I would think the Farrellys eventually will break through, just because they pay a lot more attention to having a really well-crafted movie.  Their scripts are better, and they love the Hollywood ending.

Best Picture comedy nominees this decade:  Juno, Little Miss Sunshine, Sideways, Chicago, Chocolat.  (American Beauty was more of a satire, and (spoiler alert) there wasn't really anything funny about the main character getting shot in the head.)  Anyway, that isn't many, but like you said, great comedies are hard to make.  Still, not a single broad, gross-out comedy in the bunch.

Kingpin you could debate whether it's really a masterpiece, but Bill Murray's hair really puts it over the top.  Mary is the more complete movie, but if you ask most folks who've seen both, I bet they'd say the Bill Murray hair gag is funnier than the Cameron Diaz hair-gel gag.  And, I know this is just pulling out one very random line, but there's something great about the way Woody Harrelson delivers the line, "I've been liquored up for years, my judgment's not what it once was."

As for Irene, I just don't think it gets anywhere near the sense of someone-might-really-be-this-nuts that drives most of their movies.  All the guys chasing Cameron Diaz, even if you've never done any of that stuff (and most of us haven't), you still understand, you remember liking someone that much.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I thought About Schmidt was a masterpiece of comedy, but I guess not everyone thought it was all that funny.  At the '03 Golden Globes, Jack Nicholson won best Performance by an Actor (drama) for his role as Warren Schmidt. Accepting the award, Jack said, "I'm a little surprised. I thought we made a comedy."

by jhon on Mar 21, 2008 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I think you could call it a masterpiece.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I think there's just a disagreement over the terms of the discussion and that's why I initially was a little put off by your tone.

You're attempting to engage in a discussion about the best movies of all time, bar none. I'm not all that interested in that; initially I got involved because of the back to back thing and other than that I just wanted to bring up some directors and movies that I really love. Along the way I've diverged into hyperbole, ended up actually making a pseudo controversial pro-Spike Lee argument, and generally made a fool of myself.

However, I don't think I'm making any mistakes. I'm perfectly capable of doing the kind of critical analysis that you're talking about; it's just that it's not really what I'm talking about.

In other words, stop hitting me with the gavel. I didn't even mean to come to court today.

Alan Ruck rules Spin City with a Gordie Howe jersey.

by afh4 on Mar 21, 2008 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Come on out and get your whuppin', Andrew.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I get that you hate everything after the 30's.  The reality is that a lot of "crap entertainers" in their own day later are re-discovered as great artists, Shakespeare and Dickens being obvious literary examples, but we can throw Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington in there, too.  (Ellington interestingly took a few stabs at "serious art" composition, but the overwhelming consensus is that his best art was his earlier material that wasn't trying quite so hard to be "art.")

It's almost a cliche, but Cruise's performance in Rain Man was more impressive than Hoffman's, but of course it was bound to be less noteworthy.  (See also:  Denzel Washington in Philadelphia, not that that's a good movie.)

I also thought The Queen was pretty damned good.  But don't worry, my taste in flicks isn't really your problem.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I get that you hate everything after the 30's

Pretty easy isn't it?  Build a straw man and then tear it apart.  I'm pretty sure that Armstrong and Ellington were considered "artist" in their time - pretty sure.  BTW, I prefer the Count and Chick Webb from that era.  And you're right when Ellington tried "serious art" he mostly missed the mark.

And you misstate my objection to CGI in you other post.  It's not the CGI that I object too.  It's when it becomes the focus of the movie that I object to it.  How about this - spend almost as much effort on developing the characters as you do the graphics - how about that?  I saw "Das Boat" yesterday - lots of FX - but, despite its name, it's a movie about people and plot.  I saw "Enchanted" on the plane on the way back home.  Pretty good flick full of FX.  But then again it's was novel and kept my attention.  

As to the stat ludites - which I guess I'm now lumped with - it's not the stats themselves that I object to.  It's the misuse and sloppy use of stats that I find objectionable.  Like I keep saying almost every day, I use stats in my job all the time.  I'm pretty sure I've got a handle on their uses and limitations - pretty sure.  But they do have limitations.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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So what's wrong with easy?  Nothing, I say.

I can promise you that nobody in the 1930's was talking about Ellington as possibly the most significant composer of the century, but he was no doubt considered a very fine entertainer.

As for the stat luddite thing, what I'm really getting at is that if our most rigorous analytizzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz ...

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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You're right, why not just let the trekies run amok with the stats?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I've heard the over-reliance on CGI is a product of international demand. Talky, character-driven English-language pieces have a limited audience by default: English speakers, and movie people who don't mind subtitles. But put something together with specious dialogue and lots of crap blowing up, and you can please vapid teenage audiences worldwide. Check out the international vs. the domestic returns on The Matrix Reloaded -- the difference is hundreds of millions.

by fleerdon on Mar 19, 2008 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I wouldn't call it specious dialogue, but I get your drift.  CGI is just a means to an end. It expands the ways that storytellers can express their ideas.  I think it's great.  Sure, maybe the tools are a little too tempting at times and the director relies on them too much at the expense of the story.  But architects have had the same problems with their new toys...look at the horrible, horrible overuse of pre-stressed concrete in the 60s through 80s. I'd say that's a bigger blight on our lives than CGI.  But the point is that it takes time for the tools to be used well.  That's ok, it's how progress is made.

International audiences love event movies like Americans do. They certainly travel better than character driven English-language pieces.  Listen, I've been on the receiving end of calls wondering why some hip American-centric movie based on teens in the San Fernando Valley is not playing in Japan.  Maybe because Japanese (or Germans, French, Chinese...basically everyone else in the world) don't give a hoot about teens in the San Fernando Valley...and why should they.  But if it's about Robots from the future attacking Earth, or a fairy princess from some time of yore, yeah, they get it.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I of course meant no disrespect to vapid teenage audiences. I do, however, hate California girls, so my compliments to the Japanese on that one.

by fleerdon on Mar 19, 2008 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Thank you!  I was going off the top of my head. I agree with all of your choices for Cruise, although I thought you'd have Top Gun in there too. Last Samurai was a surprise for me.  I expected it to be schlocky, and came out impressed.  He really chose the right director for that one, Edward Zwick.  Glad you didn't add Eyes Wide Shut...that was an unfortunate clunker.

Sandler by the way is a pretty good guy.  He used to play hoops with the employees at lunch on the studio lot.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Everyone remembers that Cruise is in Top Gun, but can you remember anything he actually does or how he does it?  I bet you have a more specific memory of how 3-4 other characters were in that movie than you do of Cruise.  Val Kilmer, Kelly McGillis, Anthony Edwards, Meg Ryan, and of course the immortal Michael Ironside.

Never saw Last Samurai but would like to.

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Oh my Jay, you've lost that loving feeling!

Don't forget Tom "Viper" Skerritt.  I love Tom Skerritt.

Oh, and here's original Righteous Brothers version, lip syncing and all. Still good stuff.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Let's not forget the breakout performance of Tim Robins in that film.  

(IMBD has him as "Merlin" - but I thought that was the call sign of the 'rear' who took Goose's place for the final dogfight.  (Who, by the way, had a more memorable performance than the short Scientologist.))

Anyway, all I can remember of Robins is how stupid he looks on the deck of the carrier celebrating at the end. Still, how would he ever have gotten the role of Ebby Calvin 'Nuke/Meat' LaLoosh without that part?

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 19, 2008 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I was impressed how tall he is, that Tim Robbins fellow.  Anyway, can you be 6'4" and still be in a fighter plane?

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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What was that guy's name that graduated from the Air Force Academy, flew A-10s and played defensive end for the Cowboys?  He was 6'4" at least.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Oy, I hadda look it up.  Chad Hennings, Outland Trophy winner, A-10 pilot and defensive tackle for the Cowboys.  He was listed at 6'6" so I guess you can hit a tall body in a Warthog.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Robbins was Merlin. In the beginning of the movie when the second plane couldn't land (I don't recall that guys call sign), Merlin was his rear, Mav talked that plane down.

Then at the end of the movie, Mav, Ice, etc. end up on that same carrier (same baldheaded guy, coffee guy, etc). He got assigned Merlin as his rear for the final flight since Goose was gone and Merlin lost his front when he walked away at the beginning of the film.

Favorite quote of Merlin's "You're gonna DO WHAT?" when Mav tells him he's going to put the brakes on.

by talonk on Mar 19, 2008 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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I've got a 60 inch plasma and Top Gun totally rocks on it. Wondering how many LGTers own the DVD. I'll bet more than a few.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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Not 'rear,' but RIO, Radar Intercept Officer...
Sportsman of the year, 1991

by BostonWahoo on Mar 19, 2008 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
But when you're as cool as the other side of the pillow like Viper, you call him your 'rear'.

BTW, the scene I hate the most in that movie is where Maverick goes to Viper's house.  First, his wife actually calls him "Viper."  Then, before going outside, Viper HAS to put on his hat.  Finally, while outside, he tells Maverick information that could get him Court Martialed which consists of 10 seconds about how - 'he was lost in a dogfight in the wrong airspace'. <ugh!>

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 20, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I remember lots of posturing in white briefs, spontaneous public harmonizing, and shirtless beach volleyball in acid-washed jeans.

...What?

by fleerdon on Mar 19, 2008 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Only cuz Scorsese directed it and Newman, Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio and this guy were in it.  

Cruise as a smart-assed punk - now that's type casting.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I was trying to name particularly good performances, not pretty good movies with forgettable performances.  I can't remember anything Cruise did in that movie except flash his Tom Cruise smile, glower his Tom Cruise glower, and dance around with a pool cue.  Emotionally, I remember nothing about his character.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Chuck, would you have wanted Cruise or Sandler to be method actors when tackling Costner's role in the Big Chill?  Really get into what it feels like to be that character?
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 19, 2008 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Yes, definitely.  And Chevy Chase and Will Ferell too.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2008 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
What a curmudgeon!  Hollywood has made a couple good movies since Gone With the Wind. Sandler was very enjoyable in Wedding Singer and Anger Management, and Cruise made Top Gun and Jerry Maguire and I like MI1 and MI3 and even Magnolia and The Firm.  I've actually liked him in a lot of stuff, not everything but a lot.  You didn't like Costner in Bull Durham?  Sorry, but Gary Cooper and Errol Flynn weren't available.

As for weights, I wish had accurate readings were availabe because they might reveal a lot if tracked well.  We look at all sorts of statistical indicators to try to predict performance, what about if a guy is just getting phat.  That's why I think the attempt by Steincat to get at it is a good idea.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 3:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I keep screwing up the reply...sorry about that.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
In this era, Errol Flynn would be in prison by now, just like Kobe Bryant.

Wait a second ...

by Jay on Mar 19, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Errol Flynn was certainly a naughty, naughty boy.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 19, 2008 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
 Jeez, Charlie, how can I forget my neighbor Clint Eastwood?  Every movie he's directed has been better than the one before.  "Unforgiven" is a classic, a masterpiece even.  "Million Dollar Baby" was another thought provoking gem. I couldn't take my eyes offa "Mystic River".  I thought "Flags of Our Fathers" was even better.  But then I might have been the ambiance I saw it in, a '30s style theater where you sat next to the projector in Tooele Utah.  But then I saw "Letters From Iwo Jima" - breathtaking.  It's too bad Eastwood didn't start directing when he was in his 20s like Speilberg.    

The last two had many, many CGI scenes in them, but they weren't obtrusive and carried the story - the story - along.  That's what I'm talking about.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
You really need to look at the whole list for Eastwood.  He has made quite a few great films, and I agree that Unforgiven is a masterpiece, and I was lucky enough to see it in the theater when it first came out.  Just unbelievable.

But Eastwood has also been fairly prolific and quite inconsistent -- his great films come amid a lot of pretty good and mediocre movies and a few that are almost unwatchable.  Very solid technically and known for doing a great job running a set, he thrives on and relies upon having a great script as much as any top director I can think of.  Sometimes he has a great script, like Unforgiven, and delivers a really great movie.  But he often goes forward without a great script, and the results are not good.  It's not like he's a guy like DePalma or the Coens or Scorsese or even Spielberg, where even if the movie kind of sucks it's still really great just to look at.

In between Unforgiven and Mystic River, Clint made seven other movies, and only Bridges of Madison County was particularly well received.  Some were kind of interesting (Perfect World, True Crime), most were okay but forgettable (Absolute Power, Blood Work).  And one of them, Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, might be the worst movie I've ever seen -- and yes, I am saying it's worse than They Live! with Rowdy Roddy Piper.

So yeah, Clint has made some classics, but it is a pretty mixed bag overall.  Since Mystic River, though, he does seem to be on quite a roll, and I honestly haven't seen all of them.

by Jay on Mar 20, 2008 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I sort of like Absolute Power.

The worst movie ever with actors and a director who are actually successful elsewhere is:

by afh4 on Mar 20, 2008 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Maybe, but try watching Ishtar or The Avengers.  You might change your tune. Although Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil was a hard slog too.  Full of talent, all three of them.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I defy you to sit through "Shadows and Fog".
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Dude, Ishtar is not that bad. If you keep your expectations low, it can even be pleasantly surprising. It's nowhere near the worst "big name" movie ever. Red Sonja, anyone?

I style myself something of a bad movie connoisseur, and if anybody *really* wants to see something that'll make them want to gouge their eyes out, I (don't) recommend Nukie.

by mrich on Mar 20, 2008 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Ishtar is quite bad.  Even with low expectations, I found it unwatchable.

One of my favorite "The Far Side" cartoons showed the Devil behind the counter of a movie rental store in the bowels of Hell and a few customers milling through the aisles.  Every box  on every shelf was labeled Ishtar.

I've never seen Red Sonya, but what exactly is the criteria for "worst 'big name' movie of all time"?  If it's at all based on expectations or hype, doesn't Heaven's Gate have to top the list.  I destroyed a movie studio after all.

"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 20, 2008 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
You're right, there's some clinkers in there that I forgot about.  BTW if you haven't seen "Flags of Our Fathers" or "Letters from Iwo Jima" yet I recommend you do.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Those are fightin' words.  They Live! is on my favorites shelf.  The bank scene has one of cinemas great lines spoke by an actor.

Piper: I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick a**...and I'm all out of bubble gum.

Please, watch it again and tell me he didn't deserve an Oscar Madison for that.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I love the CGI / prestressed concrete analogy.

I like New Order more than I like the Beatles.  I would be perfectly happy if I never hear a Beatles tune ever again.  But aside from the fact that they're both popular English bands, as cultural phenomena there isn't a comparison.  That's how I feel about Speilberg's films, but I'll probably go and see his next one.

I thought Atonement was terrific.

Neil Jordan has some good ones.  I think The Butcher Boy is underappreciated.

by jhon on Mar 20, 2008 1:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
you're on the wrong site, this is letsgotomovies.com
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 20, 2008 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
no no no.  it's letsgotoformermovies.com

by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
well, they're still movies, so I don't know how they're former movies. though this has been an interesting discussion.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I don't mind at all. It was hilarious to find such an involved, lengthy discussion out of the blue.

by Voltaire on Mar 21, 2008 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Dog days of ST.  I think we're all going stir crazy for the season to start.
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 21, 2008 12:45 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
That's for sure. Two weeks until my first game. Ahhhhhh!

by Voltaire on Mar 21, 2008 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Don't mind him, it's just the booze talking...
"It's hard to win when you don't score." Cliff Lee, 9/28/05.

by Harry Doyle on Mar 21, 2008 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
just giving you hell, brick.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 21, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
The European stuff is of a different species.  Ironic political content aside, I like a few of his films very much.  He always had nice looking actresses star in them, like Anna Karina, Brigette Bardot (!) and the seductive drones in Alphaville.

What was true in Godard's day is true today: American films are the most popular in France.  The French love Clint Eastwood.  I think it's fair to say that he's more appreciated over there than he is here.

Louis Malle's Elevator to the Gallows will appear on AMC now and then.  That's on my personal favorites list.

 

by jhon on Mar 20, 2008 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Those people know what they're doin'.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
what i enjoy most is any art that you can't "get" after just one exposure.  i think that's rather rare in American Cinema, even the supposedly "intelligent" stuff.  

at the end of the day, i'm a content over form kind of guy... so the politics/economics isn't an aside for me.  but it doesn't have to be political, as Fellini's 8 1/2 is probably my personal favorite.  i'll check out Malle.

by kwoog on Mar 21, 2008 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I sumbit to you Norman Rockwell's 13 Jan 1962 Saturday Evening Post cover "Art Connoisseur".

Give it a second look.

by jhon on Mar 23, 2008 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
point taken.  but i did say what i enjoy "most", not "only."  i can't wait to see, say, The Dark Knight.  but watching that, or I Heart Huckabees, or Magnolia, or No Country For Old Men (American movies I love)... that doesn't compare, qualitatively, to watching, for example, Tout Va B!en.  it's just a different experience entirely.

by kwoog on Mar 23, 2008 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
So ... /*ya'll go to the movies*/.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I'm so mad at myself. Please delete this.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
So ... /*ya'll go to the movies*/.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:38 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Shoot me now. *Ya'll go to the movies.*
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
What the hell?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Are you drinkin' again GFP?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Right now, I wish.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
By the way, anyone think we should change the name of this thread? ;)

by talonk on Mar 21, 2008 10:42 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
I think I owe Steincat a beer.  We started riffing off a reference from one of my responses, then things got crazy.  In a good way.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 21, 2008 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
We've had some wildly off topic threads, but this one just might take the cake.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 21, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
One last comment to chuck about LOTR. while the movies do have a lot of CGI in them, if you actually watch the three movies, they are some of the most picturesque I have ever seen. Jackson took extreme diligence in making wide angle views of his native New Zealand, and most of the shots are very gorgeous, from the snow-covered mountains to the gorgeous plains (Rohan scenes) and all of the Hobbiton scenes as well.

And not to mention how thorough Jackson and company were. Every little detail was covered. There was a reason they achieved many technical awards. All costumes were hand made. All the weapons were also hand made just for these movies.

The prosthetics and make-up were astounding. How they achieved the Gandalf and the hobbit scenes was brilliant.

I totally recommend all of the behind the scenes footage/documents on the DVD. Even if you don't watch the actual film, the amount of care in making the movie was incredible to view.

by talonk on Mar 24, 2008 11:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Especially the part where they light the beacon at Minas Tirith and then we follow the lighting of the the bonfires across the mountains to Rohan with the excellent background music.  That was really cool.
-Erik

by drerikbrady on Mar 24, 2008 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Heaven's Gate was a real pretty movie too.  So what?

BTW, saw Michael Clayton this weekend.  Great flick.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 24, 2008 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Basically, all I was saying, even if you take away the CGI in LOTR, these movies were excellent productions. That was the point I was trying to get across, but no changing an old crotchety one like yourself. I give up.

by talonk on Mar 24, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Yeah, that was snarky, but you know what I mean.  If you don't have a good story, then all the high production values in the world aren't gonna save it.  Part of the problem is that I don't normally see any of these "fantasy" type flicks, cuz my son's not into them - go figure.  He does like his car crash flicks and any comedy with toilet humor, so I see a few of those, but not the Harry Potter/LOTR/Star Wars/Trek stuff.

Watched Clerks with my son Saturday - talk about low PVs, but still the story kept my interest.

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 24, 2008 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: The Aluminum Monster vs. Fatty McGoo
Well I could try and convince you that the story is the most common (and a very good one at that) as in good vs evil. You know, like every Western ever made, and the Godfather too (but that was really more of a bad vs the really really bad).

Not to mention the parallels to World War I are pretty evident, but I doubt you'd listen to me anyways. C'est la vie.

As for Clerks, good flick. Not my favorite of Smith's, but excellent nonetheless. I liked Dogma better.

by talonk on Mar 24, 2008 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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