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Around SBN: Terry Collins, David Wright, And The Mets/Brewers Kerfuffle

Game Thread: March 20, 2008

Oh, c'mon people! It's Indians baseball, and this one's on TV!

Basketball is NOT more interesting than this.

As I write Byrd just hit B.J. Upton in the elbow and he's out of the game.

Also - the new Rays unis are ugly. And the logo. And the name change itself.

This had better be 300 characters. I don't want to have to copy over that text like usual.

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Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
This observation isn't specific to this game, but this game triggered the thought right now: baseball is beautiful.

by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 1:18 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Barfield just about got his head taken off.

by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 1:19 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Is Upton OK?
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 1:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
No update after he left. He looked to be in lots of pain and was trying to walk it off. He eventually went and stood on first base but they made him leave.

by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Peralta just struck out weakly on a nasty curveball. Earlier in the inning Hafner had a solid line drive but the shift robbed him of a hit as the 2B scooped it up easily after one bounce for the out.

by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 1:25 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Anybody try listening via that new audio player?  All I get is static with hammy somewhere in the distant background.  The old player works fine, though.

by Thommy on Mar 20, 2008 1:31 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I'm using the new player and it's working OK, no sound quality issues like you've described.

by Seattle Tribe Fan on Mar 20, 2008 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Is this game on ESPN?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 1:42 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
No, just STO. ESPN has the Mets or something.

by Voltaire on Mar 20, 2008 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
MEMO TO MARTE: Trying to hit the ball to opposite field isn't a crime.

p.s: Andy Gonzalez just put the swing on a ball similar to what Marte flied out on.

by crazymoloh on Mar 20, 2008 1:44 PM EDT reply actions  

THAT is Marte's biggest problem!
It looks like he tries to crush every ball by pulling it - he will likely not be effective at the ML level if he keeps doing that.  He probably won't hit .250 at the ML level, and even .230 might be difficult.  

When he does try to go the other way (not often enough in my opinion,) he hits weak grounders to the 1B or he hits weak pop-ups; he can't seem to drive the ball with any authority the other way.  That's why he hasn't developed into the player we were expecting - his difficulty going the other way with any consistent authority.

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Mar 20, 2008 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: THAT is Marte's biggest problem!
Marte hasn't developed into the player I expected, but the player he has developed into is definitely in the range of possibilities when the tribe traded for him, and is not at all surprising. He always had a 20-30% bust potential.  

by oxforddave on Mar 20, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

That's true!
Hello oxforddave,

That's certainly true; I know I read a few reports questioning how good Marte would really be when he was coming up, and especially after he was traded from Atlanta to Boston to Cleveland.  I too was skeptical, even when he was with Atlanta - probably because his numbers didn't "pop out" at me (especially his BA and his HR power being good, but not great,) though I probably didn't take his age into total account at the time, but I was still leery of him for some reason.

It's unfortunate though that he can't seem to master the skill of using the whole field consistently.  Even if he had to cut back on the power by cutting back on his stroke to go the other way, I'd rather see that and have him hit a solid single or double to RF or CF than see him chop an outside pitch to SS or miss it entirely for a strikeout.

I think many of the Marte supporters thought he would learn that over time, but he hasn't to this point, and at this point, I have serious concerns he ever will, being essentially a pull-hitter and being almost an all-or-nothing hitter, except, in his case, it's not HR or nothing (he does walk,) but his hits will essentially all come to LF or left-center field, but little to no production from CF to RF.  If he doesn't pull the ball, he likely will not produce, and that's why he might hit .250 at best at the ML level (and probably more like .230, though his OBP and SLG percentages will be borderline acceptable or even decent due to the fact he'll hit some HRs on occasion and draw a decent number of walks, but for the hype he received, I think most were expecting him to be more of a complete hitter than that, enough to hit .270 or better.)

Just my 2 cents.  :-)

May the Tribe be great in 2008! :-)

by indiansfan on Mar 21, 2008 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Cool, I can catch the replay on STO later tonight.

by Toxicadam on Mar 20, 2008 2:36 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Baseball takes a backseat to basketball today. This weekend should be a national holiday.
I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Mar 20, 2008 2:54 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Am I the only person on Earth that could care less about march madness?
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Mar 20, 2008 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
*couldn't care less
Burn on, big river, burn on...

by Turkmenbashi on Mar 20, 2008 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Thirded.

I go to a few college games every year (mostly Loyola Chicago, although now that I work at Northwestern I've gone to a few NU mens and womens games this year) but I find college basketball on TV one of the dullest experiences imaginable.

I really enjoy NBA games on TV, but college basketball (like hockey) just doesn't translate from live to TV.

by mrich on Mar 20, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Whatya do at NW?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I'm a software developer and linux server admin at the School of Education. You have any connection to NU?

by mrich on Mar 20, 2008 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I got a friend there - Jack Glowik - who usta coach the D-Line for the Wildcats.  I think he moved on after the head coach died.  Pretty sure he's workin' for the Dolphins, but given that Parcell's has taken over, he may be back at NW.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
No idea. I don't hang with the football coaching staff very often.

It's awesome to have Big 10 football right here in Evanston, even though NU clearly doesn't belong in the Big 10. The basketball teams are a joke. The men's soccer and women's swimming teams are pretty good, but other than that the athletic department here pretty much exists to be a punching bag for the rest of the conference.

by mrich on Mar 20, 2008 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Here's a quick bio.  Jack lived two doors down from me when we were kids.  His older brother Joey was my younger brother's best friend.  
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
our wrestling is one of the best in the country, so's women's tennis, and, of course, 3-peat women's lax national champions.

by sandwich on Mar 21, 2008 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
OK then. That kind of proves my point though -- if our strengths are wrestling, women's tennis, and women's lacrosse, maybe we don't belong in the Big 10.

by mrich on Mar 21, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
the older i get, the less i care about sports other than baseball.  i didn't even fill out a bracket this year.

by Brick. on Mar 20, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I fully support anything that I can gamble on - and hence become die hard fans of schools I've only heard of when they made the NCAA Tourney in prior years.
Sizemore-Shapiro 2008. The Official Red Bull of Let's Go Tribe Game Threads.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 20, 2008 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
You would have trouble finding anyone who cares less about the NCAA tournament than I do.  Hell, I was born during one, and I still have absolutely no interest in it.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Hey, I didn't know your birthday was around now.  Mine's the 17th and, unlike you, I cherish the opportunity every 5 or 6 years to take my birthday off, drink, and watch the tourney.  

The rest of the years I just have to take a non-descript day off to drink and watch the tourney.

by NickFantana on Mar 21, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Baseball never - ever - takes a back seat to anything.  I've got no interest in the freak show called basketball.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
for having no interest, you sure spend a lot of time gabbing about it chuck ;)

As to the others, I've been running the office brackets for a numbers of years now. I love March Madness becasue I love to tabulate the results. Please I do enjoy the college game more than the pros, although I will watch the pro playoffs as much as I do March Madness.

Just a sport junkie I guess ... my wife's a saint for putting up with me :D

by talonk on Mar 20, 2008 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I'm surprise that you can't see that all my gabbing about a certain unnamed pro basketball player is actually about my Indians.  I guess if you jump in the middle of the monologue it looks like I'm a basketball junkie, but I'm not.

I'll watch just about anything that involves guys wearing numbers and running around - but just for awhile.  

"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Basketball (real, not NBA) is my first love. I'll take the tournament over spring training any day.
I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Mar 20, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Anyone else getting the sense that, with some time left for thing to change, Elarton's currently sitting in that final bullpen spot?

by APV on Mar 20, 2008 5:02 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I got that same feeling from the way Hammy was talking about him.  He's pitched pretty consistently well, and he's a veteran, which they love. Mastny could go to Buffalo and become a closer, on a regular basis.  Laffey and Sowers will go to Buffalo and start. The Indians won't have them sitting on their hands in the bullpen when they can get them regular innings in Buffalo.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Mar 20, 2008 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Do Gonzalez, Elarton and Julio all have the ability to pursue other options other than Buffalo if they don't make the 25-man? I'm not too familiar with these non-roster invitees and their contractual status.

by supermarioelia on Mar 20, 2008 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Don't know about Gonzalez.  I know Elarton has some kind of an out, if he doesn't make the roster, and I'm pretty sure Julio does too.

by peter m on Mar 20, 2008 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Hey Mario, have you seen this?
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 20, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I'd prefer to avoid having this debate here to be honest. I'm in favour of a highly governmentally-regulated and capped (salaries and fees) semi-private system whereby everyone still has access to public healthcare...and we'll leave it at that. I hate these type of videos that aim to polarize by using extremes. Everyone's got an agenda.

by supermarioelia on Mar 20, 2008 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
 It would never be a debate.  I should have said that this kinda scare stuff is utterly false and an insult to every Canadian physician.  I'm a huge advocate of the Canadian single payer system.  But we gotta long way to go down here to get around this kinda crap.  It's analogous to the Obama is a Muslim BS.  Without foundation and scurrilous.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Actually, I'm not sure at all that Elarton's in the lead.  Julio has had some outings that might tease the Indians enough to take a flyer on him.  And, as I've been saying, they may decide to keep both Lee and Laffey , using one in the bullpen, short-term-- if the God Joba can do it, why not the Indians' pitchers?)  So that may change the whole situation.

Most likely, though, since the lefties have options, Fultz will make it (ugh) and then I'd guess Julio (unless one of the others really does something great or he stinks it up).

by peter m on Mar 20, 2008 5:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
In Joba's case, they're doing it in part to keep his innings down and ease his transition to the majors.  The Indians aren't that worried about Sowers or Laffey's innings, and they probably find it more important to keep them ready and developing as depth starters in Buffalo than to have them in the bullpen.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
True enough, that's probably the plan.  But both Westbrook and Carmona made the team as relievers, then made the transition to starter.  Not that Carmona was handled well, to be sure.  Still, both are examples of pitchers who made the transition successfully.  Since Byrd is basically a five-inning pitcher, they could consider keeping a long man who would also be a sixth starter should they need one.

by peter m on Mar 21, 2008 9:31 AM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I don't think Carmona was handled that badly.  Kind of a freak set of events.  You don't demote a guy after 1-2 bad outings, everyone knows that.  But then after 3-4 bad outings, suddenly people say you "handled him badly."  There really is no way to look like you handled a guy well who failed.  Certainly his performance in middle relief gave plenty of reason to give him more than one or two tries as a closer.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I feel like supporting that a bit.  Coming into that first blown save, Carmona had been a regularly used setup man, 21 games over three months.  He pitched mostly in the 8th inning, but he entered in the 7th six times and pitched through the 9th six times.  He never entered earlier than the 7th in those 21 games.

Now, the numbers:  3 ER, 24.2 IP, 1.09 ERA, 17 singles and 5 doubles, zero HR and 3B, 2 HBP, 7 BB, 24 K.  He wasn't just good, he totally dominated.  He was even better over that short stretch than either Betancourt or Perez was in 2007 -- granted it was far fewer innings, but it was still total dominance.

I stress this because it's the part of the story that people tend to forget.  They tried him as the closer not because they didn't have any good candidates, as with Mastny, but because he looked like he really might be a dominant young closer, like Papelbon or Gagne.

by Jay on Mar 21, 2008 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Well, I'm not sure I agree.  True, Carmona had done well in the set up role and looked like a really promising stopper. But, he was (and is) very young, they knew he was kind of an emotional guy, and, they threw him into the role in a really tough situation (against the Red Sox on the road).  They didn't NEED to do it, either, as they were not really in contention (which is why Wicky was traded).  It wasn't a really big error, and they handled the aftermath reasonably well.  But, it's not just hindsight to suggest that that wasn't the wisest move the Indians made with their pitching.

Anyway, the point isn't really to rehash the Carmona thing but to consider how to handle Laffey.  If Lee makes the team, which he will do unless he is consistently bad (still a possibility), does keeping Fultz and Mastny/Julio make more sense than keeping Laffey (in a bullpen role) and one of those three relievers?  They'd still have quite a bit of depth at AAA (Sowers, Miller, Slocum?, and one of the AA starters from last year).  And, Laffey could develop the way Westbrook did in a middle relief role.  

by peter m on Mar 21, 2008 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
they knew he was kind of an emotional guy

is this make stuff up to support my claim day?

i have never seen any evidence of this.  he seems more level headed than most of our pitchers, including CC.

by Brick. on Mar 21, 2008 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Aaah......... I hope this has nothing to do with his Latin background.
"the most vehement Yankee-hating guy I know" - Jay

by mauichuck on Mar 21, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Saying a 23-year old guy is "kind of emotional" isn't a slur or a criticism of him -- it's a criticism of the Indians for putting him in a tough situation he wasn't ready for (closing against Boston on the road).

Just for the record, here are Carl Willis' comments on CC and Fausto from an interview last year:

"Pitching coach Carl Willis thinks so, even though the issues that kept both pitchers from reaching their potential have been emotional rather than physical.

''The biggest difference in C.C. now is that he has the ability to control his emotions and slow the game down,'' Willis said Tuesday. ''Now he can throw any pitch in any count at any time in the game. Before, he would become overemotional and tend to overthrow.''

It took a while for Sabathia to become a fully formed major-league pitcher. He began in 2001 when he was 20 and encountered a new set of obstacles every year. He would conquer one problem only to discover another the next season.

Carmona went through an acutely painful stretch of games last year as a rookie, when he was thrust into the closer role after little more than a month as a setup man. Carmona blew three saves and a tie, losing five games in the span of a week.

It was back to the drawing board for Carmona's handlers. He was dispatched to the less stressful environment of Triple-A, getting back his old job as a starter, which maybe he was born to be. Thankfully for the Indians, taking up residence in Baseball Hell for a week did not scar Carmona for life. Willis, in fact, thinks it had the opposite effect.

''Fausto went through a wide a set of experiences in a short time,'' the pitching coach said. ''It (becoming overemotional) is something we definitely have to be aware of, because he's a young pitcher. But I feel good about having Victor (Martinez) behind the plate. He does a great job of slowing Fausto down. And I think once he gets through the first inning, he'll be fine.''

Carmona also thinks he'll be fine.

''I learned from experience last year, when everything went so fast,'' he said through his translator, first base coach Luis Rivera. ''If I get into a situation, I talk to myself into slowing things down.''

by peter m on Mar 22, 2008 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Block quoting Sheldon Ocker is rarely a strong move.
I swear, next year is it.

by Brad D on Mar 23, 2008 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
But if I'm reading this right, the substance is not Ocker, it's Willis.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Mar 23, 2008 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
If I'm reading it right, there's no direct quote where Carmona is characterized as emotional by anyone other than Ocker.  He's putting words in their mouths, artificially tying his experience to Sabathia's.

My vague recollection of direct quotes is that the Indians never thought Carmona would be particularly phased by those four games.  He let his mechanics get out of whack, and they sent him down to Buffalo because he could focus better on getting his mechanics in order while switching back from the bullpen to the rotation, all things more easily done in the minors.

That does not mean Carmona is particularly emotional or was even in need of a less stressful environment, and nobody from the Indians has said those things.  Ocker seems to be reaching to tie two things together that aren't really the same thing.

by Jay on Mar 23, 2008 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
please.  ocker added the (becoming overemotional).  that's reaching beyond putting in a word to make the grammar work.  but that's ocker being ocker.

by Brick. on Mar 23, 2008 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I'm just sayin' let's not punish peter m for ocker being ocker, or ocker being willis.
ken from alexandria

by ken from alexandria on Mar 23, 2008 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
And, to beat a dead horse, Terry Pluto says some very similar things about Carmona in today's PD (I hope it's okay to refer to Terry Pluto?).

I think Carmona's a great young pitcher and he's really handled himself well in some very tough situations.  But, like a lot of young pitchers, as Willis says, he has had to learn to maintain an even keel.  And, as Pluto says, not everyone has the right make-up to be a closer (he mentions not just Carmona, but also Shuey, Danys Baez, and even Betancourt, among others, as players who have struggled in that role, not because of any physical limitations.

by peter m on Mar 23, 2008 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
it's not okay to refer to any beat writer's musings as evidence of anything.  sure it makes sense that carmona was emotional therefore failed when put on the grandest of espn stages.  but that doesn't make it the case.

carmona, at the time, gave plenty of evidence that they ought give him a go at closer in a lost season.  the indians well knew his makeup and knew if that was something he could or should handle.  which he did - by going back and becoming a good starter again in a matter of weeks - brushing off the blown saves and the demotion.  and again coming back the following year - bounced around again, to become a top 3 starter in baseball.  THAT is evidence that he was emotionally up to the task - not the trite blatherings of a beat writer that thinks carmona falls into an archetype that makes sense to him.

by Brick. on Mar 24, 2008 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I'm not really sure what we're arguing about at this point.  Carmona couldn't handle closing.  He recovered well.  We agree on that.

Also not sure why you're so angry at those sportswriters.  Ocker is not much, but Terry Pluto is very astute and anything but trite.  We're all being amateur sportswriters in a way, so let's give the good "professional" ones some credit!!

by peter m on Mar 24, 2008 2:07 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
i'm arguing the statement that he was/is overemotional and the premise that he was mishandled by the organization.

i don't think either are true.

and i don't hate sportswriters, but their opinions are evidnece of nothing - in particular about the above two points.

and carmona didn't handle closing, but i contend he could and if not it wouldn't be due to his emotions.

by Brick. on Mar 24, 2008 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I don't take it as a given that Carmona "couldn't handle closing."  He screwed up a handful of games as a rookie and let his mechanics get out of whack -- and that's all.  Given his talent, Carmona almost certainly would be an elite closer if given the chance.

Lots of direct quotes from Indians personnel portray Carmona as a pretty cool character, a guy who laughs things off, a guy they had no doubt would bounce back from that handful of games.

I suggest you check out some video of his start in the ALDS, and take a close look.  I don't think you'll find much evidence of a guy who "can't handle" stressful assignments or is particularly emotional.

by Jay on Mar 24, 2008 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
I give up.  Not much point in arguing with hypothetical explanations of hypothetical things that didn't happen.  I'll stick to what I saw with my eyes (and will continue to note that others who were watching saw the same thing).

by peter m on Mar 24, 2008 2:51 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: Game Thread: March 20, 2008
Not much point in arguing with hypothetical explanations of hypothetical things that didn't happen.

who's doing that?

I'll stick to what I saw with my eyes (and will continue to note that others who were watching saw the same thing).

okay, well, i saw the opposite, and so did my uncle jim and aunt betty.  so i guess we'll never know.

by Brick. on Mar 24, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

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